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Shama_Grier
29th December 2006, 17:44
It's been a while since I've posted here and I'm still doing personal research on the various forms of budo out there.

I ended up browsing youtube and found this here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veKJcbFBmFE) .

I've never heard of this form before and looked on google and couldn't find a thing.

Ron Tisdale
29th December 2006, 18:57
I couldn't really say...one thing that stood out in this video (Ogawa ryu Aikijujutsu Chuden) is that the ma ai seems awfully short to be drawing a katana and then performing todome. Perhaps with a wakizashi or a tanto...but otherwise...

Best,
Ron

Jose Garrido
29th December 2006, 19:47
Never heard of them, but you never know. A little history would help. However we all know that one of the latest martial arts key words is Aikijujutsu.

Jose Garrido

someguy
29th December 2006, 20:06
I saw a fifteen minute video on youtube from this school from the looks I would think there technique comes from the Saigo-Ha ( I could have misspelled it) like dave Harvey but I'm just guessing. There techinque looked very good to me anyway. That is my 2 cents



James Fitzgerald

Shama_Grier
29th December 2006, 20:30
Never heard of them, but you never know. A little history would help. However we all know that one of the latest martial arts key words is Aikijujutsu.

Jose Garrido

That's too bad that people are taking a good legit, koryu lineage and trying to turn it for a profit.

Thankfully I have the guys here to help guide me if and when I decide to take up any arts. :)

I did look through one of the another videos and noticed that they had a diagram of various nerves and what not. Perhaps it's a more "scientific" splinter version of a ryu-ha of aikijujutsu?

Neil Yamamoto
29th December 2006, 23:28
Looks like a cross of aikikai aikido, some yoshinkan, some stolen moves from daito ryu, and generic jujutsu. But it appears to be done better than average.

Authentic tradtional arts would not be wearing keikogi with tasuki.

yoj
30th December 2006, 00:11
As a rejected Hakko ryu type, I would say there is an influence there from there, more than a passing semblance, but hey... I'm inakamono......

Eric Joyce
2nd January 2007, 15:28
I saw these guys on YouTube about a month ago. They look really good. I tried to do a translation of their webpage with an online tool called Babblefish. It helped a bit, but I still don't have a solid understanding where their art came from and so forth. I like what I see in terms of technique.

concepnin
2nd January 2007, 16:38
I didn't know that aikido practiced shurikenjutsu. ( Mind you, I am new to martial arts)

lucky1899
2nd January 2007, 16:55
I visited the website http://www.bugei.com.br/bugei/history.asp to try to get some answers for the forum. The website mentions two generations (I don't recognize any of the names)--Yorike Mizuguchi andManabo Ogawa. Ogawa was taught by Mizuguchi; I couldn't locate Mizuguchi's teacher on the site. Ogawa modified the techniques taught to him and created Ogawa Ryu. Regionally, it appears the art formulated in Hokkaido.

Hope someone else can pick up where I left off.

Regards,

Andrew De Luna
Renshinkan Daito Ryu

miguel angel ib
2nd January 2007, 22:26
Budo magazine has a write-yp on them this month as well. I've necer heard of them before either. Nice techniques though.
miguel ibarra

wmuromoto
3rd January 2007, 06:37
I could be wrong, but I'm with Neil. Yes, it's done better than the usual slap-dash conglomeration of fake koryu, but some things about the info provided and the techniques displayed raised red flags.

As Neil said, traditional budoka don't need to use a tasuki with modern keikogi because there's nothing that needs to be tied up, like big sleeves of a montsuki. I figured, oh well, maybe they're doing it because they saw their sensei do it in Japan and they don't have montsuki..but then, some other stuff bothered me. The shurikenjutsu was kind of lame. The iainuki, zanshin, and demo of sword techniques seemed to have bad ma-ai, overly elaborate methods , bad tenouchi (if it's WAS koryu; if it's more modern...then whatever floats your sail).

I was willing to take it all with a grain of salt because I've seen worse, and maybe they were some odd offshoot of some odd offshoot. Their jujutsu stuff did look pretty fast, very much like Daito-ryu, mixed with some kurottee punches, but as a mix, it seemed well done.

But then I saw their pages about chanoyu. I get possessive about chanoyu because it's one of the hardest disciplines I ever studied. Drove me half-crazy. Doing jujutsu is like a vacation compared to full-time tea practice for an extended length of time. Don't you be doing some boojiggie with my chanoyu and passing it off as legit.

The kensui waste water bowl in the pics is in a totally wrong position relative to the person. One picture has the student doing something with the tea whisk while holding the bowl, with the kensui in the right side. To someone not schooled in tea, it looks pretty cool. To someone who's done it, it's pretty darn weird. It doesn't make sense, technically speaking, esp. her position relative to the wall and the water ladle handle. I'd say exactly why, but it would take up too much bandwidth. Suffice it to say, I know of no legit Sen school of tea that would end up in that position. Also, a female student is shown in white uwagi and hakama; that's never worn in tea. More proper in seppuku ritual, perhaps. Stuff like that got my attention.

There's a lot of discussion about Sen No Rikyu and the Urasenke system and the "current" (actually, the previous) headmaster, Daisosho Sen Soshitsu (now Genshitsu). But no info on how the group is connected to Urasenke, if any. There IS an Urasenke branch in Brazil. But no info about their location, the group's relationship, the teacher's status and teaching rank. If the person has a teaching rank, he'd also have a chamei, a tea name, proudly up somewhere on the web page because it's a big deal. The name is one indication of his lineage due to the kanji. I didn't find any chamei. These things are not supposed to be secret. They are supposed to be up front and clearly described to show one's relationship to Urasenke.

So I went back to the martial arts stuff and looked at it with very critical eyes.

Maybe they did learn something legit. If so, it's obfuscated by some hokey stuff. Well done hokey stuff, but hokey stuff nonetheless. Yeah, they've been shown in a budo magazine. And if they're in a magazine, they gotta be legit, right? Hummmmm.

I COULD be wrong. They COULD be legit in terms of their budo and I'm just a knee-jerk whiny doofus (move over, Neil), and I'm just badmouthing their form irresponsibly. Maybe. Dunno, though. Their web site raises more questions for me than answers. Well, whatever. If they enjoy what they're doing, then caveat emptor, or something like that. Just don't ask me about their chanoyu or I'll go nuts again.

Wayne Muromoto
...Totally off the subject, but I went around Oahu the other day and found the pier where the little guy on "Fantasy Island" used to yell, "De plane, boss, de plane!" And I got to see the building used for the hole-in-the-wall restaurant in "Fifty First Dates." That kind'a was cooler to me than those guys' web pages.

No1'sShowMonkey
3rd January 2007, 10:47
Being a young'in, one that hates television at that, you-tube is where I get 99% of my video media. I have been watching the Ogawa ryu stuff as fast as it comes out. Though some of the bits are hokey, the actual techniques are well done, crisp and efficient. More than anything, it is done with fire, passion and conviction. This pleases me.

I did some research on the topic of their lineage to try and figure out "hey, who are these guys?!" and it was a difficult process, to be sure. I specifically did not post anything here because I figured that most anyone from these forums would view it all a sham and would immediately break out the "its not daito-ryu so it is not aikijujutsu" yadda yadda yadda.
Anyhow...

What I was able to find via their website and other aligning searches was that they seem to be an offshoot of Kaze Ryu, formerly Kaze Arashi ryu, formerly Yama Arashi ryu. The Ogawa family became Japanese foreign nationals (at least I am assuming this would be how their particular flavor of Kaze ryu spread) in either Spain or Brazil and trained several exponents who now continue the traditions.

The videos themselves paint a complex and somewhat enigmatic portrait of the school. Their focus seems unclear, bits of kano jujutsu mixed with iai and kenjutsu and some aikijujutsu-esque motions tossed in. I would contend that the core of their teachings (as far as the videos are concerned) center on nuki todome kaishi, torite seiteigata and the chuden no keiko / "aikijujutsu ogawa ryu" pair of unarmed videos. It is from these three sets of videos that one can find the strongest themes that are present in the majority of the others. Weapons retention, weapons retrieval and applied skills in an unarmed environment. From the former weapons based motions one can see the genesis of the other skills. Personally, I view the emphasis of weapons retention / retrieval techniques to be a technical, if not academic, trait which aikijujutsu and koryu jujutsu schools have.

I studied these videos a fair amount and it is from these three, I would contend, that one can identify the core teachings presented in the other films. You can see their overall thematic footwork, repeated use of several pins, strategies of kuzushi and complementary locking to achieve it, bits of vital striking.

Other than analysis of the major parts of their recorded and posted videos, I am at a loss. I am sorely undereducated in histories and lineages of the Japanese koryu martial traditions. As such, other than connecting the dots to Yama Arashi ryu and finding the salient themes in the videos themselves, I am at a loss.

- Chris McGaw

Mark Raugas
3rd January 2007, 15:46
There is no classical Yama Arashi Ryu which is still extant -- and Kaze Arashi Ryu is an invention of Henri Vilaire.

FWIW, the "aikijujutsu" and "koppojutsu" in those videos looks nothing much like KAR; they look much more like Daito-ryu or Hakko-ryu to me. For example, KAR doesn't do the tegatana finish from shomen. They usually punch downwards at the side of the ribs. Also, in KAR, it was a big deal never never to do yubi waza, but they seem to make extensive use of those kind of techniques in those video clips. Also, KAR doesn't (or at least as of a year ago, didn't -- who knows what's been added since then) have the elaborate double arm Daito-ryu pins.

If you see his iai in some of the suwari kata, he assumes hidari jodan no kamae from TSKSR. I'm wondering if this is another, possibly effective, possibly ineffective, hodge podge art made up from eclectic training + earnest video watching.

Funny to me though how people, if they are indeed inventing an art for themselves and trying to market it, unwittingly pick an art which is misrepresenting itself to backstop their "cover story".

No1'sShowMonkey
3rd January 2007, 16:35
Thank you kindly for the clarifications.

The style certainly has a cobbled together look about it, though it is a pleasing ugliness of a beloved mutt.

I have yet to school myself thuroughly on the various schools and their practices.


- Chris McGaw

wmuromoto
3rd January 2007, 17:58
Chris' imagery; the pleasing ugliness of a beloved mutt, is a good one. When I saw the videos, I thought, hey, not half bad...for stuff thrown together.

...This is preaching to the choir, but I think e-budo is best at doing what it just did; putting heads together and looking at something to figure it out. A lot of times the power of the many is much better at ferreting things out than just one or two people trying to decipher legitimacy of a system. When I saw their vids and from what I recall from a magazine article, I was hesitant to say that they were a made-up system or not. They seemed somewhat off-kilter, but looked earnest and appeared to have a veneer of legitimacy. Digging deeper, contributing my own thoughts about their ripping off of tea ceremony, their suspect koryu weaponry, and comparing opinions with other people on this forum, I've pretty much figured them out.

The thing is, they do their waza with such conviction and their curriculum is so creative that if the "shidoshi" had actually spent the time and effort in studying for any length of time with really good koryu people, or even more modern gendai budo people (other than the KAR, etc.), he and his cohorts would actually, I think, be pretty good. But now, not a lot of people in the "legit" koryu community would want to have anything to do with them. I'm not speaking officially (although I'm an officer in the local chapter) but doing what they did with ripping off tea ceremony means that a legit teacher won't touch these guys with ten foot tea scoop anymore. Too bad.

Wayne Muromoto

No1'sShowMonkey
4th January 2007, 03:18
I would be hesitant to go so far as to say that if they were to train koryu they would suddenly become "good" or "better". Their technique may come in line with the recognized traditions, but it would not necessarily "improve".
Personally, regardless of how old or legitimate the training, it is the education of the mind and the will that turns a martial artist into someone capable. Weapons, techniques, ryu's even, are simply tools and theory. Without a practitioner, a weapon is inert. Without an advocate, a cause is non-existent. Lacking an exponent, theory remains intangible. There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous men.

That said, the quality of training is admirable. Whatever they do, they pursue its excellence from the look of the videos. Falter or flourish, they are slaving on the same road we all are. Whether or not it is koryu or if one takes offense at any kind of posturing, name-stealing or what have you is done by choice. Effectiveness counts for more if the martial aspect of the arts are emphasized. No longer do men wear swords or face long bladed weapons on a regular basis... So what can be learned from the training? Instead, training with the swords educates the practitioner on the basic necessity of several of the training concepts. Beyond this, for practical purposes, it is an elaborate dance or even a thought experiment to the modern man. If said experiment is aimed at educating the senses and instincts of the practitioner in an effort to cut the fat from their training, then so be it.

The academic observations as to lineage, component practices etc. are the enlightening part of this exercise. I, personally, would prefer excellence and virtuosity with several flaws over mediocrity every single day, every breath.

- Chris McGaw

wmuromoto
4th January 2007, 06:52
Chris wrote:

(snips): "...So what can be learned from the training? Instead, training with the swords educates the practitioner on the basic necessity of several of the training concepts. Beyond this, for practical purposes, it is an elaborate dance or even a thought experiment to the modern man. If said experiment is aimed at educating the senses and instincts of the practitioner in an effort to cut the fat from their training, then so be it."

In general, I agree with your general concepts. However, there are several problem with self-learning one's own made-up koryu and then claiming it to be of an ancient heritage. First, of course, is the trouble with sheer honesty. Surely, if we are talking about higher ideals in budo training, then lying and faking are not part of the training. Secondly, if you do kata geiko, there are very little avenues to testing one's skills as to whether or not things "work" or not, from a technical goal-oriented perspective. There's few venues like jumping in a ring and duking it out full blast with a live blade, after all. So one's abilities are defined by long-established markers, such as one's own teachers, elders in the system, etc. who can observe your progress and training skills. Bereft of that, you don't know whether or not what you're doing is in line with the system's technical criteria. It's all made up, it's all up to you.

Then there is the problem with reducing the techniques, indeed, to an "elaborate dance." I agree, Chris. But the difference between that and truly martial an art are in the details; the ma-ai, timing, rhythm, intent. In some cases, we can't tell completely unless we have insight into that particular ryu. That's why I hesitated to say much until their tea page sent up red flags all over the place. When I looked closer at things that I have some prior knowledge, such as the shuriken and swordwork, I saw several problems. Not having access to an authoritative source other than their own, they are doing things earnestly but wrong. Being earnest but wrong still makes them wrong. It doesn't make them right, howevermuch I do admire their earnestness.

Does it hurt me personally? No. Should I care? Not necessarily. Heck, they're way down there in Brazil. But does it hurt my own training? No, except that I am concerned that what they do will be interpreted by the general public as the same as what I do, and lump us all together, which DOES hurt me and my own ryu.

They also do a disservice to Japanese culture, in general, which is my ethnic heritage, as well as a heritage shared by anyone of any ethnicity who has spent years and money and effort and some tears in learning a Japanese cultural or martial art. It's like a non-Indian slapping together some New Agey b.s. and then claiming to be a master Native American Indian shaman. It insults the heritage and the culture, even if the person may lay claim to being a person striving after enlightenment. You can't do that and lie to people at the same time. It doesn't hold water.

I don't think we're really disagreeing, anyway. I'm just clarifying my own opinions.

Most respectfully,

Wayne Muromoto

Ron Tisdale
4th January 2007, 14:36
Excellent post Wayne. My thoughts exactly.

Best,
Ron

No1'sShowMonkey
4th January 2007, 15:06
*snip* I don't think we're really disagreeing, anyway. I'm just clarifying my own opinions. **

I certainly doubt that we are in disagreement, either. The reason I am drawn to the koryu arts is because they have the emphasis in the bu. The truth is in the killing.

I am just hesitant to lay down sweeping generalizations in terms of quality when that quality is basically an academic one. The japanese martial arts have an academic practice to them, necessarily, due to their age; but are ultimately a practical set of skills. Their dichotomous nature makes for a complex argument. Between ideals and practicality there must be a few compromises. Then again, I am personally uncompromising in my training and that is the very thing that makes me objectively better as a person and a martial artist.

I guess I just lament the degree to which this forum lends itself to academic judgements... But being a forum, the beast is naturally drawn to and limited to such things.

Thanks for your opinions, Wayne (and others).

- Chris McGaw

PS I understand your reactions completely. Nothing infuriates me on a personal level quite like someone walking like me, talking like me but not being able to keep up with me. I eat them alive. If you claim you are something but can not back it up, do not have what it takes... If you want to put forth the idea that you are made of the sterner stuff... Well, you get the idea. : ) Being able to make judgements and promises and stick to them, to limit ones self, these are the very building blocks of nobility and martial culture.

JasonW
27th February 2007, 13:58
Well, whoever they are, they pinched the stills of the various shuriken from my site www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au, Don't recall being asked...

Jason

Victor Smith
2nd March 2007, 10:35
Just to aid discussion:

Ogawa ryu Aikijujutsu Musubi Study
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eSBJFcLDIk&NR
Ogawa ryu Aikijujutsu Chuden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyeNbfG9jmU&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Aikijujutsu Mg Brazil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFPEnWPVddI&mode=related&search=
Ogawa ryu Aikijujutsu Musubi Study
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eSBJFcLDIk&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Aikijujutsu Ken Kara no Benkyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOnkR1QpJrw&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Aikijujutsu Suwari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZZ6dKRFnOY&mode=related&search=
Aikijujutsu-doc Ogawa Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtukQNfP-vU&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Taiho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWXHjRAz3E8&mode=related&search=
* * * Ogawa ryu Yoroi Tantojutsu * * * This one is very good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHvK3ri8kcU&mode=related&search=
Aikijujutsu-doc Ogawa Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtukQNfP-vU&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Kobujutsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPbUNT7dCdw&mode=related&search=
Shurikenjutsu - Ogawa Ryu Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpKeCTwUOOM&mode=related&search=
Shurikenjutsu Ogawa Ryu Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLVA4tkTQqg&mode=related&search=
Koppojutsu Ogawa Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQolTsP1PxY&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Torite Seiteigata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z0rSV3Ftjc&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu - chuden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWZ1BsCHpJQ&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Iaidori Suwari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsB9HPZJTkY&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu kenjutsu Suwari Ippon me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY_F1MSEpYQ&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Nuki Todome kaeshi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bucz8PfjU&mode=related&search=
Ogawa ryu Bun Bu Ryo Do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8OnwhoKnpg&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Córdoba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX4IrQmrn2s&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu KusariJutsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAZwC1f5tIw&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Jujutsu Shoden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpDn2ZDyWSM&mode=related&search=
Ogawa ryu Mugen Mukeru no Hoppo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auUzBjbY57s&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Kaze No Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCiKdeRvdM&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Aikijujutsu Tachi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfftF5UQIrM&mode=related&search=
Ogawa Ryu Kenjutsu Ippon me Awase
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otxMYeqWjb4&mode=related&search=
Ogawa ryu haya Nawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAkxeKG1OGc
Ogawa Ryu Nuki Todome kaeshi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bucz8PfjU

Steve Delaney
2nd March 2007, 11:06
Jeez! They must have cherry-picked every aikido, jujutsu, kendo and Budokan Nihon No Kobudo video on the racks to make this.

There is no cohesiveness to that system. Don't even get me started on their iaijutsu. :rolleyes:

chrismoses
2nd March 2007, 15:35
If I EVER (in seriousness anyway...) post videos of myself with shakuhachi music in the background, someone please knife me. K?

Juan Perez
3rd March 2007, 01:48
Wow, so these guys are fake? (Like in the "Koga Ryu Ninjutsu" fake sense of the matter?). Whoever put that "system" together sure went through a lot of trouble. What would be their "base" system?

wmuromoto
3rd March 2007, 18:36
Juan,

Looking at just some of the vidoes Victor posted as links (geeeeeeeez Louise, they like to post videos), my own opinion is that they have no real "base." They have cribbed a series of movements that start out from different styles and added some eccentricities of their own. I see traces of Eishin-ryu, Katori Shinto-ryu, Ikkaku-yu, Takenouchi-ryu, Don Angier's system, and some other stuff, and I only glanced at some five or six of those videos before I stopped. I'm sure there's more to be found were one to go through all of those videos.

I have a feeling that a lot of those techniques were taken from DVDs, videos and books. Maybe there was some prior training in judo, aiki, and or karate, then it got a good shaking and voila; Ogawa-ryu martial arts, tea ceremony, and calligraphy. They are certainly energetic about it. But as a gas station attendant said when I was traveling through the southern part of the United States (I had no idea at the time what he was saying), "Thet thar dawg don' hunt!"

--Wayne Muromoto

No1'sShowMonkey
3rd March 2007, 19:42
They are certainly energetic about it. But as a gas station attendant said when I was traveling through the southern part of the United States (I had no idea at the time what he was saying), "Thet thar dawg don' hunt!"

--Wayne Muromoto

hahahahahaha

- Chris McGaw

Eric Joyce
4th March 2007, 15:58
I was just browsing through their clips and I stumbled across the one where they use the kusari. I have to agree with Juan here, if this group is "fake", they sure did put a lot of effort into it. Some of the stuff they are doing is good. I understand your point Wayne about how people may perceive this as a koryu. I tried to translate their webpage using Babblefish and it was hard to understand where their art originated from.

Fred27
4th March 2007, 16:11
I havent had a chance to read the topic thoroughly, but I was wondering if anyone have actually emailed these guys and (politely) asked them about their ryu?

Juan Perez
4th March 2007, 17:17
I havent had a chance to read the topic thoroughly, but I was wondering if anyone have actually emailed these guys and (politely) asked them about their ryu?

I was actually wondering about that. Is there anyone here that is fluent in Brazilian Portuguese? There seems to be a lot of stuff said by them during some videos. Do we know what they are saying (for sure)? It'd be nice to have one of them come here and explain some of the discrepancies (as you guys see them).

I grew up around folks like Ronald Duncan (in fact, my karate instructors were very friendly with Mr. Duncan and personally knew him). This gave me a good perspective on their "ninjutsu" because I remember when it used to look like Shotokan with the use of weapons and other stuff thrown-in. In fact, they used to perform karate-like kata in local competitions for trophies (I was there many of those times). Later, around the time aikido and aikijujutsu became popular, one could see a gradual shift in that direction for Mr. Duncan's group. Hakama were worn and throwing and joint locks became far more prevalent. What I'm trying to express is that there was certainly a growth process apparent because it was, in fact, an ecclectic system thrown together relatively recently. In fact ESPY-TV did some training videos with Mr. Duncan and his group. If one obtains and compares the very first ESPY-TV production with them along with the "Aikijutsu" ones, one could see the difference.

It'd be interesting to see any early examples from these (Ogawa Ryu) guys. But, really, it really seems so over-the-top for a group of folks to put this much effor to make something up in this manner. So, I'm not discounting it either way, expecially since their side of the story is certainly missing in this thread.

Nathan Scott
4th March 2007, 18:42
In fact ESPY-TV did some training videos with Mr. Duncan and his group. If one obtains and compares the very first ESPY-TV production with them along with the "Aikijutsu" ones, one could see the difference.

No worries - I have the entire ESPY-TV Duncan collection. They comprise the core of a very special section of my videos!

Regards,

Juan Perez
4th March 2007, 19:00
No worries - I have the entire ESPY-TV Duncan collection. They comprise the core of a very special section of my videos!

Regards,

I know this is probably going to offend someone here, but when I was training in koryu (during my university days), we used to play those videos after class at our Sensei's house during dinner. We would laugh so hard! But, then again, ten years earlier, I thought those folks were real ninjas.

HWS
5th March 2007, 00:09
Here is a rough translation of much of the main page of this organization's website (my Portuguese is rusty, but still serviceable). Hope this helps give some background to what these folks are about.

By the way, their website appears to be well-intended. It has a good narrative about the history of Japanese immigration to Brazil. Brazil has the largest Japanese population in the world outside of Japan.

Here's a link to the original Portuguese web page this comes from.

http://www.bugei.com.br/bugei/history.asp

"Kaze no Ryu Bugei is the “martial art like the wind”. It was developed by the Shizen people, who inhabited the forests of Hokkaido, in the north of Japan, during the Kamakura era (1192 – 1333). During that time, the art was called “Uchiu Shizen” which means “dominion over nature and space”.

The origin of the Shizen is linked to the Ainu (the true natives of Japan, who are closer ethnically to Caucasians than to the Japanese) who were forced into the north of Japan for centuries. Documents from the year 801 indicate that the Ainu tribes were defeated in the north by Tamuramaro Sakanoue (Oscar Ratti). The repressed Ainu joined forces with others who were unhappy under feudal rule, such as various ronin and farmers, and took refuge in hidden forest villages. In direct contact with nature, these people developed their own culture and traditions. Four villages comprised the Shizen people: Kawa, Yabu, Tayo and Yama.

The Shizen developed their own language – “Shizen-go” – as well as their own religion, the “O-Chikara” – based on the cult of natural forces, called Tengu.
The Bugei taught by the SBB comes from the Ogawa Shizen Kay school, which descends from the village of Kawa. History confirms that the "Kaze no Ryu" was established by Yorike Mizuguchi who, influenced by Choisai Iizasa and with the help of the Japanese “kami” (gods), changed the direction of the martial ways of the Shizen.

"Kaze no Ryu", like other styles, developed through constant technical refinements which, together with a continually evolving base of principles, determined the path of development of the art...

...thousands of examples of mortal combat between two men formed a human experience that became an intrinsic aspect of the Japanese soul...

... Yorike Mizuguchi, who later changed his name to Manabo Ogawa, is the root of the Ogawa family tree. Yorike was a priest who believed that messages from the gods were the basis of his development. Manabo is recognized by the priests as the Kokeisha (direct successor) of the traditional lineage of the village of Kawa.

It is believed that his adopted name – Ogawa – is undoubtedly an homage to his rebirth in the waters of the “little river” that runs through the village..."

Fred27
5th March 2007, 07:43
It's original I'll give em that. At least there are no ninjas involved.

wmuromoto
6th March 2007, 20:58
Thanks, Howard, for the rough translation. Understandably, there may be something lost in translation, but...

..."Kaze no Ryu Bugei is the “martial art like the wind”.

It's actually more like martial culture of the Wind Style, although properly it would be called Fuuryu. Hmm. Where did I hear that name before? No "like."

...It was developed by the Shizen people, who inhabited the forests of Hokkaido, in the north of Japan, during the Kamakura era (1192 – 1333).

No such people. Shizen just means "natural." As in All Natural Organic vegetables. Natural herbs. To my knowledge no such "tribe" called "The Naturals" existed in Japan.

During that time, the art was called “Uchiu Shizen” which means “dominion over nature and space”.

...More like "Outer Space Natural." More to the point, it doesn't make much senes in Japanese.

The origin of the Shizen is linked to the Ainu (the true natives of Japan, who are closer ethnically to Caucasians than to the Japanese) who were forced into the north of Japan for centuries.

People used to think that but I believe that recent DNA tests show that they are probably more Mongol (North Asian) than Caucasian, related to Mongolians, Mancurians and other North Asian (and North North American Native Americans) than Caucasians.

...Documents from the year 801 indicate that the Ainu tribes were defeated in the north by Tamuramaro Sakanoue (Oscar Ratti).

I'm not sure of Ratti's source, but splitting hairs, I believe that documents called those northern tribes "barbarians" or Emishi, and Emishi is a problematic word that doesn't describe Ainu per se. The Emishi may have been some Ainu tribes, but they may have also included simply groups who didn't want to have anything to do with the Imperial Court, but were ethnically and culturally of the same culture.

...Four villages comprised the Shizen people: Kawa, Yabu, Tayo and Yama.

Ah...Nope.

...The Shizen developed their own language – “Shizen-go” –

"Natural language?" Baby talk? Shizen-go makes no sense.


...as well as their own religion, the “O-Chikara” – based on the cult of natural forces, called Tengu.

O-Chikara: Honorable Strength? Big Strength? Tengu are demons, considered forces of nature, but not all of natural forces.


...The Bugei taught by the SBB comes from the Ogawa Shizen Kay school, which descends from the village of Kawa. History confirms that the "Kaze no Ryu" was established by Yorike Mizuguchi who, influenced by Choisai Iizasa and with the help of the Japanese “kami” (gods), changed the direction of the martial ways of the Shizen.

"History" as in what reference? Certainly not in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten or the Honcho Bugei Shoden, where one would think it would be listed, especially if it had links to the TSKR and Iizasa line.


... Yorike Mizuguchi, who later changed his name to Manabo Ogawa, is the root of the Ogawa family tree. Yorike was a priest who believed that messages from the gods were the basis of his development. Manabo is recognized by the priests as the Kokeisha (direct successor) of the traditional lineage of the village of Kawa.

???? Priest...as in Shinto priest? My understanding is that a whole village doesn't inherit a Shinto lineage, but this may be my own bad reading of the translation.

Yes. At least no ninja visions in a dream, but aliens from outer space ate my brain if I believed all this. Oddly, though, they attack the fabrication of their lineage as vigorously as they do their techniques. Lots of work went into this, but WHY in Heaven's name go through all that trouble when you could just hop on a plane and study something legit and return, rather than live out a lie? Why? Why do I keep receiving spams for helping little old millionairre ladies from Nigeria or North Korea? Why are there bogus Medal of Honor winners? Why do these guys fascinate me in a sick way?

Wayne Muromoto

Juan Perez
7th March 2007, 01:40
Like I posted before. This thread will never be complete until one of those practitioners come over and weighs in. Regarding the translation, here you have the rough translation to English from a - very helpful and well meaning (and this is not sarcastic on my part) - poster, translating Brazilian Portuguese ("... my Portuguese is rusty"... ) which is trying to convey Japanese.

Also, let me point out that there is a significant difference between "normal" Portuguese and the Brazilian version. So, to be fair, judging what they are stating on their website is based on information that is not quite reliable.

I trust that what your instincts tell you about these folks is true (due in part to your acknowledged expertise in the matter of koryu budo). But, for my part, this is a one-sided analysis thus far.

HWS
7th March 2007, 14:36
Hello Wayne and Juan, thanks for your comments.

If I could just respond briefly, just in case there are any ambiguities regarding what I posted:

- I know nothing of this organization. I am not trying to vouch for, nor refute, anything in what I translated. I translated the text as faithfully as I could from its Portuguese original, in an effort to contribute to the discussion. Any errors associated with Japanese history, culture, etc. are in the original text.

- The Portuguese I learned (and used in business for several years) is, in fact, Brazilian Portuguese (specifically, the common variant heard in the Sao Paulo metropolitan region). Having said that, this text is straightforward enough that the differences between European and Brazilian Portuguese would not have been an issue.

Hope this helps... best regards, Howard

Juan Perez
8th March 2007, 02:44
Hello Wayne and Juan, thanks for your comments.

If I could just respond briefly, just in case there are any ambiguities regarding what I posted:

- I know nothing of this organization. I am not trying to vouch for, nor refute, anything in what I translated. I translated the text as faithfully as I could from its Portuguese original, in an effort to contribute to the discussion. Any errors associated with Japanese history, culture, etc. are in the original text.

- The Portuguese I learned (and used in business for several years) is, in fact, Brazilian Portuguese (specifically, the common variant heard in the Sao Paulo metropolitan region). Having said that, this text is straightforward enough that the differences between European and Brazilian Portuguese would not have been an issue.

Hope this helps... best regards, Howard

Ok. So, your Portuguese is NOT rusty. Thanks for the help. By the way, since you do know Brazilian Portuguese, can you e-mail these folks and relate the questions being addressed here and see if any of them could respond. Many people in Brazil can read and write in English, so chances are someone might be able to shed light on this. Thanks. If so, I really hope we don't have someone come on the thread and try to put them on trial as I've seen before.

Thiago Moraes
9th March 2007, 01:17
Dear members, practicioners and experts,

Congratulations for the forum and for the excelent degree of its participants and contents.

In the name of the CNKB - Conselho Nacional de Kaze no Ryu Bugei (National Council of Kaze no Ryu Bugei), registered in Brazil, and under request of superiors, I will attempt to clarify some of the questions hereby presented.

The story of our style, former “Kaze no Ryuu Bugei”, started in the Kamakura age - 1192 a.C. - 1333 a.C., with the shizen people, at that time living in the north of Japan, nearby Hokkaido. Closely related to the Ainu people, known as the first natives of Japan, the Shizen people were few, composed by the repressed Ainu and other discontent with the feudal regimen, such as rounin and farmers, among others. Notably, as rebels and few, all efforts were made towards keeping themselves hidden and silent. Mr. Oscar Ratti, author of many books, which most of you certainly know, mentions in his book “Secrets of the Samurai” some passages of the Ainu people being pushed back into the northern lands of Hokkaido, which accords to some part of the teachings being passed, surely, at least three generations from the present one, from teacher to student, as the usual. Mr. Ratti’s book, however, is not the only available source for researching the fact that the Ainu people and culture like people (where the term “Emishi”, used in Japan to designate those tribes from that time, with different culture, habits and language from the “nihon jin”– japanese people – came from) existed, opposed and resisted the rules of the Japanese Emperors – many citations and explanations can be found in the Encyclopedia Britannica and there are several books about their history.
There, with the constant need to learn / develop a martial art (in the original sense of the expression, remounting the roman god of the war, Mars – not only self-defense), a system that could provide effective means when life is indeed threatened during conflicts and combats, it was compiled a style, at that time called “Uchiuu Shizen”.
Naturally, due to the great deference that many bushi had for the arts but martial, such as the calligraphy, the painting and the meditation, among others and to the practice of those as a habit, it was incorporated to the style and studies.

The teachings from the school say that the name “Kaze no Ryuu” (style of the wind) was baptized by Yorike Mizuguchi because of the strategical knowledge that aimed to deceive the enemy, that is, moving forward and backward, as the wind. The possibility of writing the kanji for wind, “kaze”; and style, method, “ryuu”, in its chinese readings, onyomi, respectively, “Fuu” and “Ryuu” (already), although makes a lot of sense in Japanese, could lead to a misunderstanding, since “Fuuryuu”, with exactly those kanji, is a word of common use, meaning “elegance”, or something like “refinement”, being a noun or an adjective. Anyway, the name “Kaze no Ryuu” has been taught surely, at least, since Ogawa Sensei.

The course of history reaches Ogawa, Hiroshi, known as a genious man in his martial art – at the same time, a man that passed through many frustrations and bitternesses in his lifetime, notably being a person quite difficult to live with. From this point of view, in all the story of Ogawa Sensei, there are three versions: his own, the one from his enemies and the true one. We know only his own.

This small résumé, however, may be seen as legend, and there is no manner to comprove it. There is no way to attest that the style is definitively ancient, nor that the grand parents of Ogawa Sensei already practiced like that.

From that on, we, his students, deal with the responsability of passing forward what was transmitted from him. We are not filiated to any kind of organization, even because Ogawa Sensei did not like to show up and did not allow his students to appear frequently in every event around – and this feeling was absorbed by everyone active in the group. It was only later, in the later 90’s, that Jordan Augusto Shidoushi started to gradually disclose the structure set.
Although, as mentioned, we are not filiated to any kind of organization, at the same time we continue the method of Ogawa Sensei.

Ogawa Sensei always said he taught Koryuu, and for every movement and sequence of Koryuu there was a precise explanation for that movement at certain time of the history and according to the line of thoughts of the ancient warriors. And it is kept untill nowadays. Because of the very large amount of details and references to such ancient things, objects, weapons, situations and ways of thinking, it was always clearly taken that what was studied reached ancient times.

Furthermore, Ogawa Sensei developed several studies beyond the classical sequences, which made the students of the Ogawa Sensei’s school quite different, technically, from others students of Kaze no Ryuu Bugei. As a matter of preserving what was taught by Ogawa Sensei, his students began to refer to it as Ogawa Ryuu, and, probably, at this time the most correct was Ogawa Ryuu Ha.
In the same way, aiming the preservation of what was taught in Brazil, all the Seiteigata was catalogued and photographed and it is kept as internal documents of the school.

Anyway, if it is a Ryuu, a Ryuu Ha or a method created by himself, we do not have how to know it securely and it is extremely hard to be comproved deeply.

About the study in Ogawa Ryuu, since Ogawa Sensei’s time, it was developed under subjects, or arts. Many of them are briefly discribed in our site: www.bugei.com.br
Also, it can be found at http://www.bugei.com.br/bugei/bugeinobrasil.asp the most coherent history, with names and dates, about the early development of the Ogawa Ryuu Bugei in Brazil.

So, under the subject “Juujutsu”, for exemple, all the postures, breathing, disposal of hara, angles, ma-ai, timings and peculiar characteristics will be according to the specific ways of thinking present in Juujutsu. In our style, Juujutsu is typically an art of self-defense, used most generally in situations of agressions, attacks or situations of everyday. The sequences and movements comprove this historical feature, and so do all the details surrouding the study. We note that these characteristics of this little example may be surely applied to our Juujutsu only – among the so many existing styles of Juujutsu, there are certainly some that were not developed mostly for self-defense.

For each subject, different studies, different exercises, different explanations.

On the other hand, the school sets two kinds of study and practice: one the classical sequences and the other is the free form – in which Ogawa Sensei stood out the most. In the free form, logically, every practicioner and teacher make efforts to polish and improve himself, and that one changes constantly, for it pursuits the maximum reality within limits - but never adulderate the Koryuu Seiteigata forms.

In the videos and documentaries that are available in the site – all the videos made in the institution available to the public may be found there - there are many ones showing Seiteigata forms, other ones showing free forms. Someones are performed by Shidoushi, others by older students and yet, others by very begginers. Obviously, the purpose of each one if different.

We truly admire researchers who share their opinions in a serious way with other people and believe that this can lead to great conclusions and studies. Nevertheless, it is not usual the institution reply to any kind of forums, regardless of its aims, purposes or contents. Thus, we believe still many questions will be raised in a forum with so many experts and researchers, but we guard the right to remain silent.

As said, the institution is open to whoever wants to know or study the style in a serious and ethical way, according to our purposes. We do believe that even with the experience that great experts may have, having its own experiences about something, specially a style or school is the first minimum step to be able to evaluate it.

Shidoushi lives in Barcelona and is organizing the legal stuff to start his classes. Courses and seminars may be found from times to times.

Faithfully,

Thiago Finotti de Moraes
CNKB – Board of Directors

Juan Perez
9th March 2007, 02:34
Mr. Finotti,

Thank you for your response to this matter.

wmuromoto
9th March 2007, 03:11
Mr. Finotti,

Thank you for replying. As you noted:

"...There is no way to attest that the style is definitively ancient, nor that the grand parents of Ogawa Sensei already practiced like that.

From that on, we, his students, deal with the responsability of passing forward what was transmitted from him. We are not filiated to any kind of organization, even because Ogawa Sensei did not like to show up and did not allow his students to appear frequently in every event around – and this feeling was absorbed by everyone active in the group."

The statement, I believe, says it all. No need for me, at least, for further questions. You can't prove it, one way or the other.

Wayne Muromoto

Eric Joyce
26th March 2007, 17:24
English version Of Ogawa Ryu

Part 1 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0z77DzmzyE
Part 2 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXIwkVvrt8w
Part 3 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68LB7g0QvLA

In case anyone's interested. I like these guys.

chrismoses
26th March 2007, 17:46
My vote is hodge-podge, but as others have said, it's well done. Watching the first video I kept thinking, "Eishin Ryu, TSKSR, Araki Ryu, oh look they've seen Kuroda, Yanagi, ah, back to Araki Ryu, hmm the TSKSR hand jive, oh, there's some Daito ryu..."

I have very little doubt it's hodge-podge ryu, but they look serious enough and it certainly looks better than most, SOMEBODY certainly did some research to come up with it.

Juan Perez
27th March 2007, 01:11
My vote is hodge-podge, but as others have said, it's well done. Watching the first video I kept thinking, "Eishin Ryu, TSKSR, Araki Ryu, oh look they've seen Kuroda, Yanagi, ah, back to Araki Ryu, hmm the TSKSR hand jive, oh, there's some Daito ryu..."

I have very little doubt it's hodge-podge ryu, but they look serious enough and it certainly looks better than most, SOMEBODY certainly did some research to come up with it.

That's exactly what I find weird. I mean, let's analyze all the other folks that we readily accuse (with good reason) of making stuff up "hodge-podge".

Usually, they have no real depth to anything they do. And, it usually looks very amaturish. As an example, Ronald Duncan's "Koga Ryu" looked more like Shotokan with Judo back in the 80's. Later, around the mid-90's we started seeing hakamas and a lot of "aikijujutsu". Obviously, theirs was a method that was evolving over time and not an extant art being passed down intact from end to finish. Or, just look at their sword "katas" back then. Felix Vasquez was a Duncan student for some time. Mr. Vasquez' students practiced Shotokan katas at tournaments with some "ninja" weapon thrown in. I remember because I was present for that many times. Mr. Vasquez' teachings reflect whatever he walked away from Mr. Duncan with at the time he started his own school. Certainly, one can see the lack of continuity. Have we ever seen these (Brazilian Bugei) guys before in any other way? Certainly, I gather that whatever they were studying before was not done overnight. I just doesn't look that way.

Typically, the "head" instructor of a "hodge-podge" art is the only one with any type of proficiency as he is usually endowed with natural ability and has some sort of organized base to work from (judo, for instance). Here, there seems to be a certain commonality among all of the students shown. There is a certain common thread - I can't quite point it out - that they all exhibit. You can even tell which ones are more experienced than others. But, their movement has a common trait as if they had been learning something progressively and over time within a strict curriculum. Also, assuming this is all just made up means that the head instructor actually studied with a serious instructor for some time, then, he collected all the tapes, books and magazines he could get his hands on, put this thing together, taught it for several years and ended up opening this school. That's a heck of a lot of effort and not the type you see with the usual suspects. Now, I don't have the expertise in these arts that most of you guys here might have, so, maybe I just don't have the trained eye for what you are seeing. But, after years of make-believe Koga and Fuma (and Dux-Ryu) ninja grandmasters and the whole slew of neo-aikijujutsu masters, these guys are very, very different.

aikiokami
28th March 2007, 00:59
It seems to me that everyone is stuck on if something is real koryu or not. This is futile and childish at best. Are they contributing something useful? YES.. According to most here Ueshiba was a fraud or at least that seems to be the way you would have treated him if he were recent..How quick we are to condemn what we aren't a part of......

chrismoses
28th March 2007, 01:31
It seems to me that everyone is stuck on if something is real koryu or not. This is futile and childish at best. Are they contributing something useful? YES.. According to most here Ueshiba was a fraud or at least that seems to be the way you would have treated him if he were recent..How quick we are to condemn what we aren't a part of......

People are critical of the (likely) false history. If the guy called it, Superfuntime Ryu and said that he made it all up, peeps would probably have no problem with it whatsoever. I think they've received a pretty fair shake on here to be honest.

DDATFUS
28th March 2007, 02:34
According to most here Ueshiba was a fraud or at least that seems to be the way you would have treated him if he were recent..How quick we are to condemn what we aren't a part of......

Sorry, but you're a bit off the mark. Ueshiba was not a fraud by the same definition that these people might be-- he trained under a legitimate teacher, who gave him legitimate licenses. He then taught the system that he had learned until he later decided to create his own style, which he openly represented as his own creation. Did he always give as much credit to his instructor (Takeda Sokaku) as one might hope? Maybe not. Is Takeda Sokaku's own training history a bit mysterious? Yes. But Ueshiba never went around claiming that Aikido was part of a secret Ueshiba ninja magic art passed down in his family for six thousand years.

These people are claiming that their art is original, when very experienced budoka have stated that it is clearly cobbled together from other arts. These people are claiming that their martial art is older than any known koryu, when it clearly draws from the koryu now in existence. These people are claiming to possess the secret martial traditions of the Ainu, for crying out loud. Their claims make no sense to me. They could be telling the truth, but Occam's razor is not on their side in this one.

It is their claims, their legitimacy, their authenticity, that are at issue here. You'll notice that most people admit that this group has skill. It just isn't really relevant to our question. You can be the most skilled martial artist on earth, but if you lie about where your art comes from, you're still a liar.

Eric Joyce
28th March 2007, 02:49
Mr. Thiago did say:

"...There is no way to attest that the style is definitively ancient, nor that the grand parents of Ogawa Sensei already practiced like that."

Just enjoy the clips for what they are.

aikiokami
28th March 2007, 02:59
Once again he is simply claiming what was taught to him by his Sensei.. And nothing more. But we seem to forget that part because he's treading on our koryu shoes.. waaaaaaa!!!!! History is written by the victors.. I wonder how we would have seen america if japan had won the war...

Juan Perez
28th March 2007, 03:00
It is their claims, their legitimacy, their authenticity, that are at issue here. You'll notice that most people admit that this group has skill. It just isn't really relevant to our question. You can be the most skilled martial artist on earth, but if you lie about where your art comes from, you're still a liar.

From what Mr. Thiago said, I believe they did not claim that. I believe he stated that they couldn't prove that it was legitimate. So, that does not make them liars. So, what IS really at issue here, if it's not their claims?

DDATFUS
28th March 2007, 03:21
He did seem to say that they couldn't prove that it is legitimate, which was a refreshing change from what you normally get. And you'll notice that people have treated him accordingly-- he stated that he couldn't prove the history, other people agreed, complimented his group on having some measure of skill, and mainly were moving on. I don't really have any sort of problem with this group-- you'll notice that I haven't really posted much on this one-- my reply is mainly aimed at Mr. Knepper's post, which I believe shot rather wide of the mark. I did not intend to directly call this group of martial artists liars-- my point is simply that if one is the greatest martial artist alive, and is a liar, then one is still a liar. The integrity of a group is worth examining, no matter how skilled they appear to be, and that is what people have done here.

If someone comes along and says, "I am teaching a martial art taught to me by super intergalactic space aliens, and it has been passed down in their clans for three hundred zillion years, and it was also taught to the elite ninja assassins of yore, but of course I can't prove that," and I in turn say, "well, you are right. You can't prove that, and you never will be able to prove that. But at least your students appear to be acquiring some skills," then I think that my response is completely appropriate. If I go on to say, "Your style is clearly a mishmash taken from bits of TSKSR, Araki Ryu, etc.," then once again, I don't see the problem. I think I would be well within my rights to make those observations, presuming that I could back them up. For someone to come along and say that it is "futile and childish" for some people to be concerned with history and hoplology doesn't make sense to me.

However, as I said before, I don't have a personal problem with or interest in this group, and I certainly don't want to start an argument (it's just sort of a habit of mine ;) ). I think I'll go ahead and bow out, and apologize if I've offended.

aikiokami
28th March 2007, 03:29
David you were simply stating your oppinion. I was only making comment toward an attitude i see in alot of these forums thats all... Thank you for your oppinion and your time...

Juan Perez
28th March 2007, 04:06
...but if you lie about where your art comes from, you're still a liar.


I think I would be well within my rights to make those observations, presuming that I could back them up.

Well, I guess that my question is, can you prove that they are liars? Or, could it be that this is how they were taught and they believe what they were taught is legitimate? I believe that it is absolutely possible for the latter to be the case. In fact, if memory serves, there is a ninjutsu master of some note in a similar situation. In that particular case, there is a lack of historical proof of some of the arts he teaches. Or, at least, there are questions regarding those arts legitimacy. They certainly look legitimate (some might argue that point), but he certainly believes that what he was taught is legitimate and teaches it forward as such. This does not make him a liar either.

Lastly, there is no need to apologize.

DDATFUS
28th March 2007, 04:51
Well, I guess that my question is, can you prove that they are liars?

Jaun, just to clarify, I am not claiming that they are liars. I merely stated that if anyone lies about the origins of their art, no matter what level of expertise they develop, they still lack integrity. If someone was deceived about the origins of his art, and repeated the lies that he was told while sincerely believing that the lies were true, obviously this is a different situation from someone who knowingly deceives others (this distinction, by the way, is recognized in our legal system). I don't know what the case is here; I am simply trying to argue that investigating the integrity of someone who is making such claims serves a purpose.

Christopher is of the opinion that we are wasting our time, and that as long as these people are making a valid contribution we shouldn't go overboard on whether or not they are really legitimate or not. I respectfully disagree; I think that it is always acceptable to look into the claims of such people. In the first place, investigating their claims can add to our historical knowledge. In the second place, I think that it is always important to investigate the integrity of instructors who are making dubious claims.

chrismoses
28th March 2007, 15:42
Once again he is simply claiming what was taught to him by his Sensei.. And nothing more. But we seem to forget that part because he's treading on our koryu shoes.. waaaaaaa!!!!! History is written by the victors.. I wonder how we would have seen america if japan had won the war...

I suspect you don't have any koryu shoes. :rolleyes:

When I see a lot of techniques and mannerisms that define *other* fairly recognizable styles of budo and read a history that's a hoplologic joke I don't have to jump to very many conclusions. Part of being true to ones martial tradition is researching that tradition and presenting it honestly. You see this in the Aikido community now. For years you saw lots of talk about Yoshimitsu and battlefield arts of the 800s and a bunch of other CRAP. Today, most serious practitioners realize their art can be traced back to Sokaku Takeda, and that's about it. It doesn't matter what your Sensei told you, what matters is being honest.

Juan Perez
28th March 2007, 22:06
It doesn't matter what your Sensei told you, what matters is being honest.

I don't really disagree with you there. What you state is perfectly reasonable. I think the spirit of your statement has been discussed, in some form, or another, regarding another art and is has never been resolved.

To some, taking what your teacher told you at face value is not only a measure of loyalty to him and they system/style you are practicing, but also an act of faith. I do not personally subscribe to that mindset.

However, I find little a bit unfair in the fact that the some (not all) of the same folks impeaching the art/style in question, do not do so with other art/styles in a very similar scenario.

chrismoses
28th March 2007, 22:14
However, I find little a bit unfair in the fact that the some (not all) of the same folks impeaching the art/style in question, do not do so with other art/styles in a very similar scenario.

I must have missed that, do you have any examples you'd like to cite?

Juan Perez
28th March 2007, 23:41
I must have missed that, do you have any examples you'd like to cite?

Yes I do. But, I don't want to side track this thread as I've seen happen so many times. If you really want to know, I'll send you a PM. Fair enough?

aikiokami
29th March 2007, 00:03
Now were trying to get personal... Sad.. My koryu shoe is more than large enough. Ive been in Bujutsu for over thirty years now, But that doesn't mean anything. I'm not here to push my ranks or styles. Most japanese History is laughable at best controlled by a dictator who was obviously pro upper class.. The problem is that most of the pro koryu crowd poopoos on anyone not in the club by saying things like" hodgepodge at best"...What makes your system anything but that also?...The attitude still lives on

chrismoses
29th March 2007, 01:14
My koryu shoe is more than large enough. Ive been in Bujutsu for over thirty years now, But that doesn't mean anything.
Agreed.


I'm not here to push my ranks or styles.
Yay. You do sound like you have an axe to grind however.


Most japanese History is laughable at best controlled by a dictator who was obviously pro upper class.. The problem is that most of the pro koryu crowd poopoos on anyone not in the club by saying things like" hodgepodge at best"...

Who said anything about Japanese history? We were discussing modern hoplological concepts and criteria, and most of us aren't in Japan. The criteria used to determine koryu legitimacy is (generally accepted to be) the year 1868. You're brining up a commonly used diversionary tactic however when someone's *legitimacy* is questioned, and that is martial efficacy. Efficacy and legitimacy are different in this context. So while we might be dismissing their claims of being a koryu system, no one is dismissing their martial qualities or the completeness of their system. Actually, I'd say many of us are going out of our way to be clear about that. Your rhetoric sounds a lot like what used to come out of the ninja crowd though about a dominant feudal system ignoring the peasant arts. Well that wouldn't be the case here, they're displaying the kinds of skills and weapons that would have been used by the bushi, which would put them IN the establishment, not outside of it.


What makes your system anything but that also?...

Ah that's easy. I don't do any koryu. My sword line only goes back to 1890, but despite not being "in the club" we seem to get along fine with a number of koryu groups, both here and in Japan. Our embukai last year was attended by the soke/or senior members of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Hokkushin Itto Ryu and Sekiguchi Ryu just to name a few. The difference? No outlandish claims, we let our waza and earnest training speak for itself, and that's well received by "the club." My taijutsu would be best described as goshin budo or just MMA. We keep a close eye on those affiliated with our little group and actively work to ensure that no one makes any ridiculous claims (something that has occurred in the past). Personally I further play it down in my own signature by referring to it as "Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club" as opposed to the more proper "Icho Ryu Aikibudo." Again, no crazy histories or lost documents, just our waza and our earnest training. I feel that if I'm going to expect that of others, I have to set the example myself.


The attitude still lives on
Tell me about it...

Juan Perez
29th March 2007, 01:39
It was only a matter of time before two perfectly reasonable martial artists engaged in this kind of BS. :rolleyes: There goes the thread.

aikiokami
29th March 2007, 22:05
Your right juan. I shouldn't have gone there. It is amazing to me that people will still insult in one post and act above it in another. Chris I said nothing to attack you and yet you carry on the fight. Try saying something nice about these people with out a condition attached. Just try it wont hurt I promise.


My vote is hodge-podge, but as others have said, it's well done. Watching the first video I kept thinking, "Eishin Ryu, TSKSR, Araki Ryu, oh look they've seen Kuroda, Yanagi, ah, back to Araki Ryu, hmm the TSKSR hand jive, oh, there's some Daito ryu..."

I have very little doubt it's hodge-podge ryu, but they look serious enough and it certainly looks better than most, SOMEBODY certainly did some research to come up with it.

This whole statement assumes a lie was perpetrated.

Yet you think that some how I personally have a vendeta. I am not affiliated with the kans or x-kans. I simply refer to an attitude that gets pushed all the time. Attack whats new and different. History is something that means nothing in the end. Are they useful... you may come from a school that is older. But why does that matter.. being older doesn't make your view correct, it just makes you old..

DDATFUS
29th March 2007, 22:27
But why does that matter.. being older doesn't make your view correct, it just makes you old..

Christopher, I'm curious as to why you are so upset about what Chris has said. He stated that in his opinion this school is a modern construction, a "hodge-podge" of other schools. He doesn't say that this is a bad thing, and he goes on to say that it is well-done. If you think that being old does not matter, then why are you upset that Chris says that they are a modern construction?

His statements might assume that a lie was perpetuated, but he makes it clear that this is his opinion, and gives reasons to back it up.

chrismoses
29th March 2007, 22:30
Attack whats new and different. History is something that means nothing in the end. Are they useful... you may come from a school that is older. But why does that matter.. being older doesn't make your view correct, it just makes you old..

You're still not getting it. New and different isn't koryu, period. Koryu doesn't mean good, gendai/goshin doesn't mean bad. It matters if they're old, if they're claiming to be old. Honestly I don't see what's so difficult here.

aikiokami
29th March 2007, 23:46
They arent really claiming koryu status. Just telling a story that was related to them. I can see why you would get stuck on this their story does involve old times but I'm trying to steer around it.. I'm sorry that the internet doesn't allow tone then you would understand that I'm not upset or attacking, But calling something hodge podge is rude.. Every budo/jutsu is mixture of other styles nothing has the market cornered old or new... Maybe in a few years something will pop up that will prove everything they were taught. New discoverys happen every day. I simply was stating that saying it is "hodge podge" is a rude way of dismissing someone or somthing from being what they are... thats all.. I hold no anger toward chris. His oppinion is his own.

jdostie
30th March 2007, 00:59
They arent really claiming koryu status. Just telling a story that was related to them. I can see why you would get stuck on this their story does involve old times but I'm trying to steer around it.. I'm sorry that the internet doesn't allow tone then you would understand that I'm not upset or attacking, But calling something hodge podge is rude.. Every budo/jutsu is mixture of other styles nothing has the market cornered old or new... Maybe in a few years something will pop up that will prove everything they were taught. New discoverys happen every day. I simply was stating that saying it is "hodge podge" is a rude way of dismissing someone or somthing from being what they are... thats all.. I hold no anger toward chris. His oppinion is his own.

By the same token, Aikido is a gendai art, yet it's "roots" are in Daito Ryu (and as I understand it some other older system(s) as well). I can't comment on the question of hodge-podge or not, I don't have the knowledge or experience.

I would think, however that a ryu whose various parts flow together nicely will make up a system - a ryu where the techniques/arts are disjointed from one another and have no common root - there the term hodge-podge might apply. This group? What do you think, system, or hodge podge given those guidelines? edit - not that these guidelines are necessarily correct, but with that assumption).

chrismoses
30th March 2007, 01:11
They arent really claiming koryu status. [snip] But calling something hodge podge is rude.. [snip] I simply was stating that saying it is "hodge podge" is a rude way of dismissing someone or somthing from being what they are...

Anyone who says, "The story of our style, former “Kaze no Ryuu Bugei”, started in the Kamakura age - 1192 a.C. - 1333 a.C., with the shizen people, at that time living in the north of Japan, nearby Hokkaido." is in effect claiming koryu status.

They are what they are, but to several people on this board (not just me, please go back and reread Wayne's posts), they also look a LOT like someone else depending on what they're doing. The fact that there's no common thread among those various arts (or the Ainu for cryin' out loud) could be considered rude.

aikiokami
30th March 2007, 01:57
You're saying that because a punch looks like this it must be from this system. That is a double edge sword. No one has claim on technique. Kote gaeshi performed in one older system means that no one else could have come up with that? And lets drop the koryu thing thats just taking us in circles. I think that judging on the videos we've seen theres no way to tell if its a complete system or not. They do show they have alot to offer..

Steve Delaney
30th March 2007, 02:36
You're saying that because a punch looks like this it must be from this system. That is a double edge sword. No one has claim on technique. Kote gaeshi performed in one older system means that no one else could have come up with that?

Nope, not really, most koryu have a certain way of executing a technique which is individual to that ryuha. It could be the striking methodology, the grips used in grappling, certain joint locks, throws and leverages are utilized in some ryuha that aren't used in another.

Yes, a lot of koryu jujutsu have similarities in technique, but there is a certain individuality inherant in each ryuha that enables you to identify which ryuha is which. I've done it many a time, I've arrived after an embutaikai has begun watched what was going on, looked at the kata, the technique and the individual kiai kakegoe (or sometimes, lack thereof) and have said "Ah Yagyu Shingan-ryu" (If you have ever seen this ryuha in person, you'll know what I'm talking about, it looks like nothing else.)



And lets drop the koryu thing thats just taking us in circles. I think that judging on the videos we've seen theres no way to tell if its a complete system or not. They do show they have alot to offer..

No, let's not. They're claiming to be koryu. People who have had extensive experience in koryu have said, "Nope, that dog won't hunt. Show some proof."

Juan Perez
30th March 2007, 04:06
"Nope, that dog won't hunt. Show some proof."

Mr. Muromoto (Wayne) did just that and when Mr. Thiago answered that they couldn't prove it, he (Wayne) dropped it since there was no way to for them to prove it "one way or the other". Or, I guess you could prove that they are fake all day long while they can't prove otherwise.

Hence, the "dog won't hunt" and, apparently, they are fine with that. These guys, unlike the guys that are usually inquired about here, don't really care what we think of them. So, I guess my question is, why are we still discussing them. I, for one, will also drop it. They are fake in your informed opinion? Great! I'm fine with that too. So, let's just all agree that they are fake. Let's move on.

I wish those guys the best in what they are doing.

Mark Jakabcsin
30th March 2007, 04:46
christopher knepper,

You are new here, and you have come on fairly strong. That is ok, strong opinions make for interesting discussions. However, since you are new, at least to me, it would be very helpful if you would give a little background so we/I can better understand your perspective. Thanks in advance.

Take care,

Mark J.

chrismoses
30th March 2007, 05:08
They are fake in your informed opinion? Great! I'm fine with that too. So, let's just all agree that they are fake. Let's move on.

eek, I wouldn't say they're 'fake' or 'fakers', their waza looks pretty decent. I think it's unfortunate they had to puff up the resume so much.


I wish those guys the best in what they are doing.

Ditto, if/when I ever make it to Brazil (definitely on my short list of places to go) it would be cool to look them up or go roll with them if at all possible.

I second the motion for some background from Christopher, and I look forward to him proving my assumption wrong that he's going to sidestep the issue, or claim that we're making personal attacks by asking. C'mon, prove me wrong. :) Most of us list our 'credentials' to provide a context for our statements, it really helps understand where people are coming from sometimes.

aikiokami
30th March 2007, 05:27
I hate rank droping. So I will be general I hold several dan ranks in multiple martial diciplines. Some koryu some new. My most recent training is in Kenjutsu with the Wabukan and Sensei Tony Kull. He is very respected in Yoshinkan Aikido and general Aikido, Daito circles. I've been a martial student for 30 Years and a Sensei for 15, Origanally starting with Ed Parkers Kenpo then moving into Jujutsu, Aikido, Daito, then back to Jujutsu. I Love Bujutsu And do my best to learn more every day.

Steve Delaney
30th March 2007, 06:31
I hate rank droping. So I will be general I hold several dan ranks in multiple martial diciplines. Some koryu some new. My most recent training is in Kenjutsu with the Wabukan and Sensei Tony Kull. He is very respected in Yoshinkan Aikido and general Aikido, Daito circles. I've been a martial student for 30 Years and a Sensei for 15, Origanally starting with Ed Parkers Kenpo then moving into Jujutsu, Aikido, Daito, then back to Jujutsu. I Love Bujutsu And do my best to learn more every day.

Impressive resume.

Which ryuha of kenjutsu do you study under Mr. Kull? Also pardon the incessant questions, which ryuha of jujutsu do you train in?

aikiokami
30th March 2007, 09:32
The Kenjutsu of Sensei Kull is mainly his own though I see some Aiki influance. The Jujutsu's first was a Koppo-jutsu I can't earnestly remember the name Very kata oriented Maybe a Takeuchi ryu line not to sure I was 10 when I started. Then Danzan ryu which lead me to Prof. Crimi and Hikari Ryuza Ryu Jujutsu were both my uncle and grandfather were ranked he's based in northern california. Not big names just good Bujutsu.

Mark Jakabcsin
30th March 2007, 14:18
Thanks Christopher and welcome to ebudo and the aikijujutsu forum.

Take care,

Mark J.

Usagi
31st March 2007, 22:42
I know them. I`ve trained with them.

My first knowledge about Shidoshi Jordan Augusto was in 94 in a brazilian martial arts magazine in which he was presented as a master of Daito ryu. My father contacted the magazine so we could reach this, as far as we believed, only master of Daito ryu residing in Brazil. After four months we were able to contact his students who then explained that they actually trained an ancient japanese religion called "Bugei Art" that involved more than 18 physical disciplines and 36 spiritual ones.

Just to put into context, back in 94 there was no internet and very little trustworth bibliograph was avaiable in brazilian bookstores. I had some books(in english) that had such pearls of wisdom like "Jujutsu then became judo" or "samurai praticed karate"...and i was eighteen :)

After three years of correspondency and many invitations for Shidoshi to come to my city to teach, it was only after i left the Aikido organization that he accepted to come.

It was 1997 and i decided to do a Workshop on Kenjutsu on my own(talking about frogs on wells, in my ignorance i thought that my video based aikiken was kenjutsu...and the worst, most people agreed for the lack of references...) and he came with some students. He participated on the seminar and demonstrated "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu" and "Kaze no ryu Kenjutsu"(the no meaning, acording to him, the possessive particle, thus rendering the name "Tradition of the wind").

I had a very extremely completely lame Aikido so he looked amazing.

Two months later i went to Goiânia(his hometown) for a month to stay in his house for some practice. And after my return to my city i brought him to teach a workshop on "Jojutsu"("Gonnosuke`s method").

Althought i was very well treated and enjoyed tremendously the practice i deeply disliked the religious aspect(animism with guiding spirits who had very tendencious advices for me towards martial arts and personal life...).

About the technique

Jordan`s technique seems very much like a blend of good Yoshinkan and good Judo, trained without the emphasis on grabing the gi. His weapons are definetly Aikido type. He studies alot of videos thus he is able to increase his repertoire with kata he adds and them blends into his "tradition".

So, what`s wrong?

As i mentioned, at first he taught three diferent Koryu in his "Bugei Art"(as it was called back then): Daito ryu, Shindo Muso ryu and Kaze no ryu. He also explained how the term Bugei refered specifically to his school(if it is called Bugei, it is related to him and his school...).

As in 98 me and my father finally got internet and found KoryuBooks, Mugendo Budogu and Tozando, we were able to buy fantastic books and videos...and contact people from koryu budo.

And what a surprise it was to see how "diferent" Kenji Matsui`s Shindo Muso ryu was from Jordan`s...

When i mentioned this to him he simplely said that what he taught in the workshop was "Kaze no ryu Jojutsu"(not quite what he said on the video my father made of that seminar...). After extra six months he was explaining that actually it was Kaze no ryu Bugei, which included Aikijujutsu, Kumiuchi, Jojutsu, Kenjutsu, Sojutsu, Naginata jutsu, tanto jutsu, hojo jutsu, okinawan weapons(yes!)...and that it was a secret martial art of the Ainu people.
Yes, Ainu.

The ranks were also very unusual, starting with Kohai, seito(first level up to third as i recall), deshi, uchideshi and goes on(i really don`t remember it all, but i have it written down). The exam`s fees were also unusual in which they would cost from U$300(for the first levels) til U$1000...and for Brazil those prices were even higher than they sound for you folks on US...

Also, there was an unhealth atmosphere of formality...in the presence of Jordan students were expect to sit in seiza and remain in silence, avoid eye contact and treat him in the same manner one sees daimyo being treated in samurai movies. And i won`t go into the nasty details(and they exist).

From 97 to 99 Jordan was able to gain a large following and lots of money...but even though most of his students were originally friends of mine, all of them had cut contact with me and my father for no particular reason...and when i would stumble on them in a mall or such they would be extremely formal("greetings Renato san/sensei...i hope all is fine with you and your family").

In 2000 the bomb fell...i was on the beach and was greeted by two friends who had entered on the "Kaze no ryu Bugei".

Well, let`s say that ALL his students had left, some were suing him, and them they proceeded to tell me what the students were recquired to do...including the fact that it was forbidden to mantain contact with me and my father, at the cost of being expelt.

Present status.

As i said before, Jordan is very skilled and has an amazing charisma. He is also very quick into improving/fixing his art. And i inadvertly have helped him in doing so with a hot debate i had on the Orkut-based community "Kenjutsu - Kendo" were i listed all the incongruences of his "Koryu", among which was the name. Now he uses the name Ogawa ryu instead of Kazeno ryu(which he still uses, but with the reading "direction of the wind" instead of "Wind school") and has "fixed" all the most obvious absurds on his claim of being a legitm koryu(except the Ainu nonsense, but he will most likely do it, sooner or later) .

Conclusion

The empty hand techniques are good (better than most average Aikido & Judo), the weapons are so-so and the cultural aspect is confuse.

All in all it is very much like Saigo ha Daito ryu.
And not something i would recomend.

Usagi
1st April 2007, 00:05
Here is the photo of the participants on my pseudo-kenjutsu workshop(Panasonic ryu:)):
http://www.ittosai.vipflog.com.br/?1223078
Jordan is the third from the right in the front roll

Steve Delaney
1st April 2007, 01:21
This one is VERY telling (http://www.ittosai.vipflog.com.br/?1222446)

Video captures of the Nihon No Kobudo series production of the Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu documentary.

Saburo
1st April 2007, 02:34
Who's head is that? (http://www.ittosai.vipflog.com.br/?1208683) :)

Steve Delaney
1st April 2007, 03:10
Whoa, some serious photo shopping there! :rolleyes:

Mind you could be just an inside joke.

aikiokami
1st April 2007, 11:13
A very bad inside joke.. I feel bad.. Cults suck.. I wasted to much time on this "koryu" already.. My apologies to all..

chrismoses
1st April 2007, 17:31
Whoa, some serious photo shopping there! :rolleyes:

Mind you could be just an inside joke.

The picture site we're looking at is Renato's (Usagi). The 'shop of him with OSensei is a joke. ;)

Could someone clear up what's 'telling' about the photo that Steve pointed to?

I've corresponded with Renato for several years now, and have no reason to doubt his comments on these folks. I suppose this is a great example of why so many of us get upset about false histories and claims, more often than not, it's only the surface of the problem.

Steve Delaney
2nd April 2007, 00:39
Could someone clear up what's 'telling' about the photo that Steve pointed to?

It's something I pointed out above on this page of the thread and something I alluded to earlier on in the thread too. :)

jdostie
2nd April 2007, 01:26
It's something I pointed out above on this page of the thread and something I alluded to earlier on in the thread too. :)

-edit-
I am sure I missed what you were referring to. I had posted something here after I did a seach of all your posts, but what I'd though you were referring to was in another thread. I didn't read the thread name correctly. If the moderator would like to delete this post, that's aok. Otherwise maybe Mr. Delaney could give the more dense among us a little more of a clue.

Thank you.

Steve Delaney
2nd April 2007, 03:04
-edit-
I am sure I missed what you were referring to. I had posted something here after I did a seach of all your posts, but what I'd though you were referring to was in another thread. I didn't read the thread name correctly. If the moderator would like to delete this post, that's aok. Otherwise maybe Mr. Delaney could give the more dense among us a little more of a clue.

Thank you.

On post 23 of this very thread, I stated:


They must have cherry-picked every aikido, jujutsu, kendo and Budokan Nihon No Kobudo video on the racks to make this.

There is no cohesiveness to that system. Don't even get me started on their iaijutsu. :rolleyes:

And the fact that they have video captures of the "Nihon No Kobudo' series video of Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu was very telling of that.

Have I made sense?

jdostie
2nd April 2007, 03:21
Now I understand, you have penetrated the denseness. :)

Usagi
2nd April 2007, 03:29
On post 23 of this very thread, I stated:
And the fact that they have video captures of the "Nihon No Kobudo' series video of Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu was very telling of that. Have I made sense?

But incidentally kind of. The photolog i posted(www.ittosai.vipflog.com.br) is MINE, not theirs. As the seminar in question (i was the fool who thought himself capable of teaching kenjutsu), in which Jordan was but a guest.

I do collect tapes on koryu. But the reason for that still of the tape was for the sake of making a point on the curriculum of HNIR in an argument that i was having with the student of a certain brazilian MacDojo...

But i actually got a copy from an Daito ryu tape(Kondo Katsuyuki and Tokimune Takeda) from Jordan, what corroborates with your argument :D

Jason H.P. Yoo
3rd April 2007, 02:00
They're from Brazil, eh? I can already imagine it...

"My frenn, it's coriu biujitsu!"

Sorry, I couldn't help it. :D

Usagi
3rd April 2007, 06:29
"My frenn, it's coriu biujitsu!"

"Frenn"? Are you from Salvador-Bahia and a former student of english teacher Mister John? Mr John was a White guy who enjoyed doing push-ups in the class to prove he was "still in shape"...:D

I was watching the tapes from the "Kenjutsu seminar" today...man, i was really, really ignorant back then so as not to realize how absurd their waza was...

Juan Perez
4th April 2007, 01:06
The exam`s fees were also unusual in which they would cost from U$300(for the first levels) til U$1000...and for Brazil those prices were even higher than they sound for you folks on US...


OMG! $1000 in Brazil can feel like $5000 in the US (not the actual exchange rate). That is certainly crazy! And, I imagine that the folks learning in that school are well-to-do as well.

jdostie
28th April 2007, 16:16
There is now an English Documentary in three parts posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0z77DzmzyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXIwkVvrt8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68LB7g0QvLA

The second link hung up on me, and I don't know if it's the morning, the slow speaking, the accent, or the music, but I'll probably have to watch several times to catch everything he said. And, even then, I am not qualified to comment, but thought I'd let you all know it's out there.

Johannes Ibel
11th May 2007, 21:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PusfBBIidas

:rolleyes:

Steve Delaney
11th May 2007, 22:43
Jeez! It's getting worse by the minute. :rolleyes:

Earl Hartman
18th August 2007, 01:31
Just stumbled on this thread and looked at a few of their videos. The ma-ai in the paired batto stuff looks very strange; much too close for anything but a wakizashi or a tanto. And the young woman who is the "kill-ee" clealry doesn't know how to use a sword. And, as someone said, way too heavy on the Barouque pyrotechnics. KISS, baby. And, like others have pointed out, who wears a tasuki over a keikogi?

But since I know more about kyudo than anything else, I'll just say that, as Mozart replied when Salieri asked him what he thought of Salieri's music, "I can honestly say that I have never heard anything like it".

These people clearly do not know the first thing about shooting a Japanese bow. And I have absolutely never seen or heard of anyone shooting a bow strung backwards. And if the origin of their art is supposedly Ainu, what are they doing with a Japanese bow? Ainu bows were short self-bows made of wood, not the long composite bows the Japanese later developed. By modern kyudo standards, their technique is absolutely atrocious. Modern kyudo may have been "refined" from traditional kyujutsu, but certain things are fundamental to shooting a Japanese bow, whether one is doing kyudo are kyujutsu, and these people do not seem to be aware of a single one of them. And the arrows they use are not even proper kyudo arrows; they have Western fletchings.

However, the burly fellow with the glasses has clearly seen tapes of the koshiya kumiyumi battlefield archery of the Satsuma Heki Ryu and does an earnest, if poor, imitation of it. But he has obviously never really been trained in the fundamentals of handling a bow.

So, yeah, mishmash.