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Neil Hawkins
22nd December 2000, 01:48
I recieved this in an e-mail:


The Isshin Ryu of SMR today was formed by Tan Isshin and his lineage according to the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten was:

Nen Ami Jion
Tsustumi Hozan
Yoshioka Munisai
Yamada Shinryuken
Yui Masayuki
Tan Isshin

Could someone with access to the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten confirm it's accuracy please?

I would like a copy of the entry if at all possible.

Thanks

Neil

All the best for Christmas and the New Year.

Meik Skoss
22nd December 2000, 23:18
The lineage of the Isshin-ryu is, according to Watatani, as follows:
Nen Ami Jion
Tsutsumi Hozan
Yoshioka Munisai
Yamada Shinryuken
Yui Masayuki
Tan Isshin...

Then there's a break in the lineage, although of how many generations is unnoted, followed by:

Takagi (Ji?)ro
Ashida Rimpei
Morikata Ryosaku
Shiraishi Hanjiro who awarded menkyo to the generation just prior to current holders of Isshin-ryu menkyo:
Takayama Kiroku - Shimizu Takaji - Otofuji Ichizo - Eguchi Tadaiki (all these men are contemporary, all are deceased)

Watatani notes Takayama as having given a license to a man named Takayama Shige(ki?) (I believe this was his younger brother) before he died sometime in his forties. He also lists Shimizu as having awarded menkyo to Nakayama Asakichi and Hamaji Koichi. I know for a fact that Shimizu also gave Isshin-ryu menkyo to Hiroi Tsuneji and Kaminoda Tsunemori as I was present in the dojo on the day they were awarded.

It should be noted that these men aren't the only ones who have gone through the entire ryu, just the ones known to've received licenses. There is no "headmaster" for Isshin-ryu, per se, just as there isn't for Shinto Muso-ryu. Each man who holds a menkyo is the "head" of his own particular line in his own right.

Watatani lists Shimizu as having also awarded menkyo to a couple of other people in Shinto Muso-ryu, besides the two men listed above (though I'll list them, too, in order of seniority):
Hamaji Koichi (deceased)
Kuroda Ichitaro (deceased)
Nakajima Asakichi (deceased)
Yoneno Kotaro
Hiroi Tsuneji
Kaminoda Tsunemori
Kawauchi Takamoto (I don't know anything about him, although I have some photographs of him and other pre-WWII students of Shimizu's in a book)

I'm not sure where Nishioka Tsuneo fits into this lineage, as he's not mentioned in Watatani's book, but did receive a license at the same time as Yoneno and, indeed, is the most senior of Shimizu's surviving students in that he began to train as a young man before WWII. Hiroi, Yoneno, Kaminoda began in the early '50s.

There are way too many people who have received licenses in Shinto Muso-ryu from the men above for me to continue but I will say that the first two non-Japanese are Phil Relnick and Pascal Krieger (living in, respectively, Seattle, WA, and Geneva, Switzerland). They have, in their turn, awarded licenses (okuiri-sho, sho mokuroku, go mokuroku) to some of their own students. And so it goes.

Hope this helps.

Undmark, Ulf
27th December 2000, 08:30
The names Nen Ami Jion, Tsutsumi Hozan and Tan Isshin are quite famous and well known.

Are the names listed in between (Yoshioka Munisai, Yamada Shinryuken, Yui Masayuki) also of "famous people"?
That is, are they known outside of the Isshin ryu lineage?

Regards
Ulf Undmark

Neil Hawkins
28th December 2000, 02:12
Ulf

They do not appear in the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu lineage, it is a shame the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten does not give dates. I cannot find any references to them elsewhere in my meagre resources.

Regards

Neil

Undmark, Ulf
28th December 2000, 08:19
Hello Neil (how are you?),

Sometimes it would be very interesting to know what sources were used to compile lineages (such as this one).
This lineage go so far back in time that there couldn't possibly be any densho left and the authors must have relied on later documents and maybe densho of later ryuha.

It's quite possible(?) that these documents were not closely related to the Isshin ryu as we know it today (just a guess though) but they might bring up some important names from Japanese martial history. Even though the names might have no real relation to the Isshin ryu they might very well be worth checking out! If you find anything, please post it.

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

Meik Skoss
28th December 2000, 14:19
U. Undmark wrote: "Sometimes it would be very interesting to know what sources were used to compile lineages (such as this one). This lineage goes so far back in time that there couldn't possibly be any densho left and the authors must have relied on later documents and maybe densho of later ryuha.

It's quite possible that these documents were not closely related to the Isshin ryu as we know it today (just a guess though) but they might bring up some important names from Japanese martial history. Even though the names might have no real relation to the Isshin ryu they might very well be worth checking out! If you find anything, please post it."

Mr. Undmark, you're wrong about the impossibility of there being any Isshin-ryu densho left because it dates from such a long time ago. Likewise, you're off the mark saying that researchers like Watatani, Yamada or Watanabe "must have relied on later documents and maybe densho of later ryuha."

For example, Yagyu Nobuharu still has in his possession the original Shinkage-ryu makimono (Empi, Sangakuen, Kuka, and Nanakajo -no tachi) given to his ancestor, Yagyu Sekishusai Munetoshi, who founded what's now known as Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. I've seen, and even handled, them on several occasions. Likewise, I've seen/handled similar documents of the Jigen-ryu, Toda-ha Buko-ryu, Kiraku-ryu, Kogen Itto-ryu Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Yagyu Shingan-ryu and others. This sort of documentation isn't nearly as "common" as a modern book, but it is around and it's possible to just buy them from dealers in such things.

Watatani had what was then ('50s and '60s) the largest and probably the most complete collection of densho and other sorts of documents for a great many of the ryu that he and Yamada wrote about in the *Bugei ryuha daijiten*. Those he didn't have, he borrowed or made copies of, to complete his work. Today, that collection has been split up and sold off to various other collectors, museums, and so forth. Fujita Seiko's collection wound up in the Sagamihara Museum (it may've been the Public Library) after his death.

Lastly, modern mokuroku/densho qualify as the same sort of original source material. The makimono for Toda-ha Buko-ryu and Shinto Muso-ryu, for example, are just like the ones my teachers received and just like the ones that were written several hundred years ago. How do I know? I've examined the ones I have, compared them to the ones held by my teachers and the older documents I've been able to look at in Muto Sensei's (headmaster of Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu) private collection. Sometimes there are a few discrepancies (a fair copy will have those kinds of errors on occasion), but they are generally identical. That's the way this kind of system works.

Undmark, Ulf
28th December 2000, 14:53
Meik,

I didn't mean that there wouldn't be any Isshin ryu densho left, rather that I've never heard of any densho left by Nen Ami Jion/Soma Shiro Yoshimoto (Nen ryu/Isshin ryu?) and Tsutsumi Yamashiro no Kami Hozan (Tsutsumi Hozan ryu/Isshin ryu?), which would bring'em back to mid -to late- 14'th century I guess. And, ofcourse, even though I've *never* heard of ryuha densho *that* old...it wouldn't be *completely* impossible...I suppose.

My only point was that finding evidence for a connection between 14'th century people and these ryuha might be very difficult (not entirely impossible...) and that I guess that the oldest densho (left) naming Tsutsumi Hozan (or Jion) is *probably* later than 14'th century and that *those* sources would be interesting, especially the names they mention after Jion and Tsutsumi.

Regards
Ulf Undmark

[Edited by Undmark, Ulf on 12-28-2000 at 08:57 AM]