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Simon Keegan
16th January 2007, 12:57
Hope this is the right forum, (and I realise that the subject of early Jujutsu in Liverpool has been touched on elsewhere - Jack Britten, Morris, Clarke etc) but I wonder if someone can help with some information about an early Jujutsu club in Liverpool.

I'd like to know if this was a Jujutsu Ryu or whether it was 'old style' Judo:

My great uncle Bill Nelson started learning Jujutsu after World War II finished (he had been a seaman in the Merchant Navy and had some martial arts experience from then). He initially studied with a "Mr Skyner" at Arnott Street School (which he describes as in Bootle but I think it's nearer Everton Valley or Walton). He then, in around 1947 studied at another club, where he can't remember the name of the teacher.

He is sure that the club was a Jujutsu school rather than a Judo club although he was given one of Jigoro Kano's books by his teacher.

He achieved black belt which suggests it was not a Koryu.

I asked if he had his license and he said: "We didn't have licenses back then".

I have seen on another forum somebody mention a Jujutsu teacher called "Professor Gerry Skyner" from Liverpool, so I'm fairly sure this is the same man (I'd be surprised if there were many Skyners teaching Jujutsu in the same time in the same town - unless they were related).

Can anybody help?

Thanks
Simon

Simon Keegan
16th January 2007, 13:37
Apologies - I got it mixed up (and I don't know how to edit)

The first Jujutsu school was one in Liverpool with Mr Skyner, the second was in Arnott street school, where he can't remember the name of the teacher,

Thanks
Simon

johan smits
17th January 2007, 10:19
Hi Simon,

I cannot be of direct help but there is a book "beginning jujutsu" by James Shortt. It was written in the '70's but there might be a reprint rather recently. Mr. Shortt has done quite some research on the history of jujutsu in the UK. Maybe you can find some info there.

best,

Johan Smits

Simon Keegan
17th January 2007, 14:19
Thanks, I do have that book actually and I do find it a good source. But the elusive Mr Skyner isn't mentioned.

Joseph Svinth
19th January 2007, 03:03
Have you checked the digital archives of the Liverpool papers? London Times and The Scotsman both have extensive pay-per-view archives that beat looking through old microfilm by the hour. So, maybe a Liverpool paper has something similar?

Also, if he was Merchant Marine, Public Records Office may have something.

You probably have this, but what the heck. http://www.scottiepress.org/guestbook/gbk2004.htm

Billy Woods
Date: Thu Jul 29 16:27:23 CEST 2004
Url or email: http://TOAGY@woodsw72.fsnet.co.uk
Comments: I read John Hayes comment about St Anthony's Boy Scouts. I lived in Ambrose Place and can remember in 1943 going to St Anthony's to join the 'Cubs'. I think I went about twice and remember sitting in a circle in the schoolyard. I did not really enjoy my two visits and so I never went again and as such I never became a Scout but my older brother George was a St Anthony's Boy Scout around about 1943. I can remember the date as at this time my father was a prisioner of war in Marlag Und Milag Nord in Germany. This was a camp for Merchant Seamen. He was repatriated in 1944. Along with thinking about joining the Cubs I also thought about joining the Star ABC Boxing Club. I remember going along one night and after a sparring session with Chuck Friel who was a schoolboy champion I decided that boxing was not for me. I was however very much into football and eventually played for St Sylvester's School Football Team - being a member of the successful 1947 to 1949 teams. I also played for Liverpool Schoolboys in 1948 against Wallasey boys. In 1950 I played football for St Helens Town FC - and in 1953 I played in an Army (Para Reg) Football Team in Eygpt whilst doing my national service. In 1957 I was a member of Professor Gerry Skyner's Judo Team in Catherine Street - I was encouraged by a Stan Moran of the K&M Judo Club off Netherfield Road. Stan Moran was the youngest BJA Black Belt in England at this time (aged 19). Frank Smith was also a Black Belt in the club - readers might remember Frank in his famous cafe on the Dock Road. BILLY WOODS

Dennis Martin also might have some leads. http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/ftopic1347.what-is-a-good-combination-with-WW2.htm

Meanwhile, since Dickie Bowen has passed on, Syd Hoare appears to have assumed the mantle of leading living recorder of British judo history. So, have you asked Mr. Hoare? Also, have you checked at Bath University, to see what is in the Bowen Collection? My guess is you could spend weeks there, reading there, and have a rollicking good time at it.

Joseph Svinth
19th January 2007, 05:44
BTW, speaking of Skyners in the same breath as the Merchant Marine, a man named Ernest Skyner died subsequent to the loss of EL OCCIDENTE on April 13, 1942. The ship was a freighter sunk by U-435, north of Norway, on a Murmansk run, on April 13, 1942. The convoy number was QP-10. At the time, the ship was run by United States Line, under Panamanian registry. Skyner was chief steward, aged 49, and gave his hometown as Liverpool.

Sources:

http://www.usmm.org/killed/s.html , http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-civil/civsh-e/el-occid.htm
http://www.usmm.org/europe.html
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1533.html
http://www.armed-guard.com/panama.html

Also, perhaps people with the same surname are related? If so, the telephone book might provide some leads. See, for example, http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.skyner/8.1.1.3/mb.ashx .

Joseph Svinth
19th January 2007, 05:52
One final thing. I just looked at the British Register of Black Belts dated December 1, 1954. There is no Skyner listed. All this means, of course, is that he was not registered through the Budokwai.

Simon Keegan
19th January 2007, 22:22
Dear Joe
Thank you so much for your messages, that's a great help, I'll go through the sites you suggested in great detail.
You have an excellent point about the Microfilm, I used to go to William Brown Library, Liverpool a lot and use the Microfilm in researching my family tree but I never thought to look for martial arts.
I will try and contact Mr Hoare as well.
I assume that Mr/Professor Skyner must have been graded at least 2nd Dan before 1950 since I believe my great-uncle graded to either 1st Kyu or 1st Dan under him but maybe his style wasn't Budokwai registered.
Thanks again, much appreciated.
Simon

Simon Keegan
19th January 2007, 22:27
The ancestry website is great, I notice they say "Gerald who did self defence" rather than "Jujutsu" for Mr Skyner. And Billy Woods (surely not THE Billy Woods of Judo fame) refers to him as Professor Skyner. So it begs the question whether he was an academic professor or a professor of self defence. I will also try the Liverpool Echo as you suggest.

Simon Keegan
19th January 2007, 22:31
Dennis Martin's quote abour Mr Skyner is great!

"Similarly Gerry Skyner ran a respected, hard training school in Catherine Street. I heard that Skyner was recruited to teach hand-to-hand during WW-2, and only lasted one session, because, while demonstrating a counter, he smashed his "assailant" to a pulp with a steel helmet."

Makes sense, even at 82 my uncle Bill is hard as nails! Now I know where he got it from!

That's a small world, I'm fairly sure another uncle of mine (and I don't even have that many!) was friendly with Dennis Martin and may have done some Goju Ryu with him, I'll see if I can get a contact.

Joseph Svinth
20th January 2007, 03:04
Billy Woods with E.J. Harrison, Wrestling, was published during the 1920s. So, on the face of it, that Billy Woods was old enough to be the blogging Billy Woods' father, or maybe even grandfather...

Simon Keegan
20th January 2007, 16:10
Oh, I meant the Billy Woods who was Kenshiro Abbe's Uke at the Busen. But he was from London or Essex I think, not Liverpool.

Simon Keegan
19th June 2007, 16:24
I've had a PM which I've been unable to reply to for some reason which has informed me that the style of Jujutsu that Gerry Skyner taught was HANA KA RYU.

It does sound ever so slightly Hawaian but other than that connotation can anybody help with info about this name?

Simon Keegan
19th June 2007, 20:09
From: Liverpool Echo (Liverpool, England) Date: December 13, 2003

ONE of the oldest and most respected jiu-jitsu clubs in Europe celebrates its 75th anniversary this month.

Skyners of Liverpool is holding a special reunion night for former students and instructors on Thursday, December 18.

Founded in 1928 at 67 Mount Pleasant by Professor Gerry Skyner and his Japanese mentor,Mikonosuke Kawaishi, the college,originally called the Liverpool Jiu-Jitsu ...

...........................

So there we have it. My great uncle's teacher's teacher was Mikonosuke Kawaishi. My curiosity is satisfied! I found this on Kawaishi on judo.info:

Mikonosuke Kawaishi
by Tony Papenfuss, PhD
(Edited by Neil Ohlenkamp)

Mikonosuke Kawaishi was born in Kyoto in 1899, and he died on January 30, 1969 in Paris. He studied jujitsu at the Dai Nippon Butokukai (Greater Japan Association of Martial Virtue) in Kyoto. It is not known exactly what style of jujitsu he learned, although it seems it was a form of Aiki-jujitsu. A group in England that continues to teach this form refer to their teachings as Kawaishi Ryu Jujitsu.

In the mid-1920's he left Japan and toured the United States, teaching particularly in New York and San Diego. In 1928, he arrived in the United Kingdom and established a jujitsu club in Liverpool, where he taught Aiki-jujitsu. ...........................

Thanks for all your help in this thread guys (those of you who have stayed with it!)

Best wishes
Simon

johan smits
21st June 2007, 20:09
Hi Simon,

I know the aikijutsu comes up in connection to Kawaishi but I am not sure about that. " My way of self-defence" a book by Kawaishi gives a reasonable idea of his jujutsu. No historical references in the book though.
My quess - but that is a very unsubstantiated wild quess - would be Tenjin Shinyo-Ryu.
Maybe people " in the know" on this forum could be of help.

best,

Johan Smits

Simon Keegan
25th June 2007, 14:01
Hi
Yes I also doubt it was Aikijujutsu (ie Daito Ryu) and my great uncle has ceratinly never used the phrase "Aikijujutsu" only Jujutsu and Judo referring to his training.
I'm fairly sure Aiki was unknown in these parts before Abbe Sensei etc.
Perhaps Kito Ryu would be closer to the mark given Kawaishi's unique way of practising the Judo no kata?
Best wishes
Simon

Brian Griffin
26th June 2007, 13:15
Kawaishi came from Waseda U. and the kata he taught reflect that background. Judo ranks, back then, were issued by the Kodokan or the Dai Nippon Butokukai, which was a sort of National Governing Body for martial arts. The Judo section of DNBK was headed by Kano's top guys (like Nagaoka etc.)

There's no reason to believe Kawaishi studied anything other than Kodokan Judo. I'd be interested to see any contrary evidence.

Remember that the terms "Judo" and "Jujutsu" tended to be used interchangeably in the early days, even by Kodokan practitioners.

The techniques shown in "Ma Methode de Self Defense" are pretty orthodox Kodokan Goshinwaza, mixed with a bit of Savate, a soupcon of Karate, and perhaps a bit of influence from Feldenkrais.
If anybody thinks it's koryu, please specify which koryu, and when Kawaishi would have studied it, and with whom.

Just for the record, my sensei was a pupil of Kawaishi in Paris after the war, and received his Judo shodan from him around 1950. If you look at the techniques in "Ma Methode de Judo," "Ma Methode de Self Defense," and Feldenkrais' two books "Judo" and "Higher Judo" you'll have a good idea of the Judo curriculum I grew up with.

Simon Keegan
26th June 2007, 15:30
Thanks Brian

My great uncle also used Jujutsu and Judo interchangeably but only in the respect that he was adamant that what he was taught was Jujutsu but cited Jigoro Kano as a source. I was working purely off the bio on Judoinfo.com which mentions studying Jujutsu at the DNBK.

I thought it may have been Kito that Kawaishi studied in Kyoto just because in James Shortt's book he lists the Kito Ryu lineage and one of the headmasters is from Kyoto so it fits the bill as a style of [Aiki] Jujutsu, taught in Kyoto that uses Kata similar to Judo.

If you have any further info please PM me or email simonkeegan@runbox.com

I appreciate any help in this "quest!"

Best wishes
Simon

johan smits
26th June 2007, 20:03
Brian,

In a way I can agree with you about Kawaishi never studying antything else but Kodokan judo. On the other hand I think quite a lot of very famous jujutsu sensei taught jujutsu at the Butokukai. Sugino sensei of Katori Shinto-ryu fame learned Yoshin ko-ryu overthere if I am not mistaken. There were probably more older ryu taught overthere.

Although I cannot pinpoint any koryu jujutsu in Kawaishi's selfdefence book there might be a hint at Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. Steve Delaney or Lee Masters or Lee's father would be abel to give an expert opinion on this if they would be willing to do so. It would be good if they would help out on this one.

best,

Johan Smits

Brian Griffin
27th June 2007, 07:58
My great uncle also used Jujutsu and Judo interchangeably but only in the respect that he was adamant that what he was taught was Jujutsu but cited Jigoro Kano as a source.My sensei used both terms also. The self-defense stuff was always called "jujutsu." The distinction he drew was simple: if you use seoinage at the dojo, or in a tournament, it's Judo; if you use seoinage in a real fight in some alley, it's Jujutsu. Kano drew the same distinction, if I recall correctly. So did Kawaishi.

I was working purely off the bio on Judoinfo.com which mentions studying Jujutsu at the DNBK.Neil's a friend, and he has a great site. Not everything on it is entirely reliable, however, since he draws from a wide variety of sources. Neil didn't write the bio you refer to, he found it elsewhere and published it "as is" on his site. There's very little on Kawaishi to be found, and that bio is...OK...I guess...as far as it goes... but I don't trust everything in it. The stuff about aikijujutsu & the DNBK are especially suspect.
For one thing, the DNBK was an organization, not a place. They did have the Budokan, and the BuSen, but they were mainly a rank-granting body. It was entirely possible to receive your Judo rank from DNBK without ever going to Kyoto or setting foot inside the Budokan. Willy Cahill's dad got his Judo Shodan from DNBK...in Honolulu (!)
So...aside from that one (questionable) bio...is there any evidence that Kawaishi ever trained in Kyoto? or at the Budokan? We know he was affiliated with Waseda University, but that's in Tokyo.


Although I cannot pinpoint any koryu jujutsu in Kawaishi's selfdefence book there might be a hint at Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.OK. That's fine. Recall, however, that Kano was a Tenjin Shin'yo shihan, and drew greatly on that background for the technical syllabus of Kodokan Judo--especially the katame- and atemi-waza. Just the stuff you see in Kawaishi's goshinwaza. Whole chunks of TSY are littered about in the Kodokan kata and several of Kano's early students started in TSY. Are you really seeing a direct TSY influence? or just the "emanations and penumbras" of TSY that came into Kodokan?

johan smits
27th June 2007, 09:25
Brian,

"Emanations and penumbras" - I had to look that up in the dictionary.
But you are right even if there was some direct influence from TSR it would not show any other way than through Kodokan judo in the book.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Brian Griffin
27th June 2007, 14:28
"Emanations and penumbras" - I had to look that up in the dictionary.Sorry. Obscure US cultural reference. From the much-parodied language of US Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas in his opinion in Griswold v. Connecticut.

Brian Griffin
27th June 2007, 14:35
One other thing...

" My way of self-defence" a book by Kawaishi gives a reasonable idea of his jujutsu.Please be aware that the English translation by Harrison is highly abridged. I strongly recommend the original French edition.

johan smits
27th June 2007, 14:40
Brian, thank you very much I was not aware of that!
I will keep an eye open for a French edition.

Thanks,

Johan Smits

47th ronin
27th June 2007, 21:10
One other thing...
Please be aware that the English translation by Harrison is highly abridged. I strongly recommend the original French edition.
Is this in regards to techniques, or just the descriptions? From memory, I know there are several sections in Kawaishi's books where Harrison has editor's notes about removing passages as not being relevant to the technique.

Brian Griffin
10th July 2007, 07:47
Is this in regards to techniques, or just the descriptions? From memory, I know there are several sections in Kawaishi's books where Harrison has editor's notes about removing passages as not being relevant to the technique.
Whole sections are missing from the English version. The original French edition is more than twice as thick.

Simon Keegan
28th June 2009, 23:16
Sorry to bump an old thread. But I've discovered some new information.

Firstly I found an old photograph of my great uncle's old Jujutsu club at 5Catherine Street, Liverpool showing a sign saying "Skyner's Ju Jitsu". It's on this website. It's quite a biggie but the picture in question is about 90% of the way down the page:
http://inacityliving.piczo.com/?g=44843738&cr=7

Secondly I found various references to Mikonosuke Kawaishi's Jujutsu teacher as being one Yoshida Kotaro (he of Daito Ryu and Yanagi Ryu) - which would certainly explain why the Judo website I cited earlier on referred to Kawaishi teaching Aikijujutsu in Liverpool. It seems one of Kawaishi's students Georges London who teaches in Argentina has recorded this. I'm relying on Google Translate because I don't speak the lingo but here is one mention:

"Mikanosuke Kawaishi born in Himeji, near Kobe, on August 3, 1899. Su padre fabricaba saque, alcohol de arroz, bebida tradicional en Japón. His father manufactured out, alcohol, rice, traditional drink in Japan. Comienza sus prácticas a la edad de 8 años en la Dai Nippon Butokukai de Himeji siendo alumno de Yoshida Kotaro. He began his practice at the age of 8 years in the Dai Nippon Butokukai Himeji being a pupil of Kotaro Yoshida.

In 1927 he moved to New York by enrolling at Columbia University, the city founded the New York Judo Club that works with great success.
Kawaishi Shihan complementa sus bajos ingresos desafiando a diferentes luchadores como el campeón del mundo de boxeo Jack Dempsey, utilizando el nombre de Matsuda, aunque manteniendo esta actividad con bastantea discreción. Shihan Kawaishi supplementing their low incomes challenging various wrestlers such as world boxing champion Jack Dempsey, using the name Matsuda, while maintaining the activity bastantea discretion. Uno de los desafíos mas famosos fue contra el campeón de peso pesado Sam Mac Vea al que mandó a la lona en pocos segundos. One of the most famous was the heavyweight champion Sam Mac See who commanded the canvas in a few seconds.
En 1928 arriba al Reino Unido y enseña en el Budokwai de Londres que estaba dirigido por Gunji Koizumi desde el año 1918. In 1928 up to the United Kingdom and teaches in London Budokwai of which was directed by Gunji Koizumi since 1918. Luego establece un Dojo de Jiu Jitsu en Liverpool, donde enseñó Aiki Jiu Jitsu. After establishing a Jiu Jitsu Dojo in Liverpool, where he taught Aiki Jiu Jitsu. "

I'm hoping I can paste the translated version here:
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.argentinajujitsu.com.ar/index.php%3Fnews%3D27&ei=COdHSr_2At62jAeRu9Bi&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkawaishi%2B%2522georges%2Blondon%2522%2Byoshida%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1R2SUNA_ en

Anyway, if anyone is minded to pursue further citations Googling "Kawaishi + 'Georges London' + Yoshida" seems to throw up plenty of pages in various exotic languages.

I contacted Kawaishi's son who lives in France about his father teaching Aikijujutsu in Liverpool and he said he knew very little about this period in his dad's life but would be intrigued to learn more! I asked him if his father taught Daito Ryu and he replied that his father only ever taught "Kawaishi Ryu" so read into that what you may.

I did have contact from one of Gerald Skyner's senior students (I seem to remember he was called Alf) which I have managed to temporarily lose in my many email inboxes (doh!) which mentioned training with "Ueshiba" and "Tani" - I'm guessing this means Yukio Tani at the Budokwai.

As an aside the new book Working with Warriors about Karatekas Dennis Martin, Terry O'Neill and Gary Spiers working as doormen in Liverpool reveals that Terry O'Neill's dad used to train at Skyner's gym in Jujutsu. The book is here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Working-Warriors-Dennis-Martin/dp/1903854792

(it's a really good book by the way)

My great uncle died a few months ago but I would still like to learn more about his Jujutsu training so I'm going to continue researching the history and techniques that he studied with Gerald Skyner, he with Mikonosuke Kawaishi and, perhaps, he with Yoshida Kotaro.

I realise this is something of a personal quest. But knowing that my great uncle took some of the same throws as me 60 years later has a certain kind of magic to me. I appreciate any information anyone has on this school.

Joseph Svinth
1st July 2009, 03:29
In the FWIW department, a slew of Japanese professional wrestlers have used the name Matsuda, all the way from the 1880s to the present. Some of them even were named Matsuda.

Boxer Sam McVey beat Tano Matsuda in Paris on December 31, 1908. I have no more information than this.

The judoka who appeared with Jack Dempsey in Popular Mechanics in September 1930 was Setsuzo Ota. Obviously, Dempsey (who was living in California at the time) could have wrestled other Japanese.

In 1927, Mikonosuke Kawaishi established the New York Judo Club http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1964/sepoct64/grandoldman/grandoldman.html .

Before that, Kawaishi had been a professional wrestler in San Diego from 1926-1927. Kawaishi entered the USA via Seattle on May 17, 1926, on Paris Maru out of Kobe. This was a merchant vessel rather than a passenger liner; there were just two passengers aboard. Kawaishi listed his occupation as student. His fellow passenger was Shigeru Yoshitaro, also age 26. A photo and a description of the ship appears at http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?135852 . (It ran aground and sank off Port Elizabeth, South Africa, in 1934.)

Kawaishi went to England ca. 1931. Ancestry.com appears to be able to give you the exact date, but that site is pay-per-view. In England, he was not teaching at the Budokwai, but at another location. In May 1935, he left England for France following a scandal involving a female student. After that, he becomes much better documented.

In the FWIW department, in 1924 Hikoichi Aida and Keishichi Ishiguro introduced Kodokan judo to Paris, and during the late 1920s the painter Tsugiji Fujita provided some private judo instruction to his friends. So, he was not the first Kodokan judo instructor in town. However, he was without doubt very influential.

Joseph Svinth
1st July 2009, 04:03
Johan --

Re Harrison's abridgement of Kawaishi's book, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_harrison_0503.htm :

Feb. 20, 1956:

It may interest you to hear that Belasco has commissioned me to grind out a drastically curtailed English version of Kawaishi’s Ma Méthodé de Self-Défense, a sort of companion volume to his My Method of Judo with which I have already dealt. The original French text runs to over 380 pages but His Nibs wants me to reduce this tome to little more than 96 pages (sides)! This means that allowing one side for the illustration itself only about 50 sides at the very outside would be left for the letterpress. And yet he wants to sell such a book for at least 9 shillings 6 pence, and probably 12 shillings 6 pence! My Manual, approximately double the size, sells at 9 shillings 6 pence. Where is the sense of proportion in such planning?

Anyhow, I have devoted more than a weekend to a very careful examination of the text and have reached the conclusion that he will be a veritable Peter Schlemihl if he refuses to expand the translation considerably and insists upon adherence to his first intention. I have written to him in this sense but of course far more discreetly because as the result of my examination of the text I am convinced that a more generous version would appeal to a wide circle of aspiring judoka. Kawaishi’s final section of atemi alone runs to about 93 pages and in my opinion his exposition of this all-important branch of the art is the best. Certainly it is the most comprehensive and lavishly illustrated of any known to me, at any rate in any European language.

Some of Kawaishi’s techniques are positively fiendish and would be a veritable godsend (?) to every self-respecting thug and plug-ugly conversant with the English language!

Feb. 12, 1957

My drastically abridged version of Kawaishi’s Self Defence should be out shortly. I shall not fail to send you [e.g., R.W. Smith] an autographed copy but have a decided hunch that since you already possess the complete French original this English translation with its numerous omissions won’t be of much use to you.

Simon Keegan
1st July 2009, 08:47
Hi Joe

Thanks for that information. I did come across another Japanese-American pro wrestler at the time called Matty Matsuda but on the pictures he is clearly not Kawaishi. He also died much earlier.

I wonder then if Kawaishi came to England sooner than 1928 then who Skyner's original teacher was, since that was the year his club was established. Perhaps he was associated with Jack Britten?

Regarding Kawaishi's techniques - some of them seem positively ahead of their time. I've taught some MMA practitioners who have been surprised to learn that some of the leglocks and necklocks that Kawaishi taught did not begin with Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock!

Best wishes
Simon

Joseph Svinth
1st July 2009, 10:44
Matty Matsuda died in 1928, but he was fifteen years older than Kawaishi. He was very well known in the day, though, even becoming the lightweight "world champion" for awhile.

DenCQB
11th April 2018, 12:39
We have a thread on this here (http://combatives.forumotion.com/t160-early-liverpool-ju-jutsu-judo-and-self-defence)