The Hagakure says:

[Bob Steinkraus]

What is the Hagakure?

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Regards,
Bob Steinkraus

[Tom Davidson]

"Walk with a real man one hundred yards and he'll tell you at least seven lies."

Hagakure. From chapter 11.

Now what does that say to you?

[Tom Davidson]

Bob - rather than go into detail, let me direct you to: http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword/Hagakure1.html
for a full and complete answer, and a lot more besides!

regards,

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Davidson (edited 05-25-2000).]

[Bob Steinkraus]

Tom -

Thanks for the link.

Is this considered (in any sense) sacred writings by Shintoists?

If such a concept exists. I have almost no knowledge of the Shinto religion.


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Regards,
Bob Steinkraus

[Tom Davidson]

Bob, hi -

No. this is not a religious work, but it is regarded with religious fervour by some, iaidoka particularly, when they're members of the Hagakure Dojo!

I could start a flamewar here, but I don't hold it to be a work on the same level as, say Gorin no Sho, also on Hyakutake sensei's website (and, btw, Hyakutake sensei also visits E-Budo, so I'm sure you can post any direct questions for him here).

Yamamoto was talking almost a hundred years after the last great battles, and much of what he said was an effort to stop the rot, as he saw it, of martial values among the samurai class. The importance of Hagakure is that is expresses the character that the Edo Jidai samurai should aspire to, and thus became the guidebook and 'bible' for the generations who followed, notably, as mentioned, the kamikaze pilots during WW2, and latterly the author Mishima Yukio, and my old dojo.

I'm wondering, as I write, if the morality behind it might not be more Confucian - which dealt more with the concepts of honour, loyalty, duty, obligation, etc. but I think Yamamoto's response was more 'gut' than intellectual, and his emphasis is more on being a good 'retainer' than 'samurai' - which in truth is effectively the same thing, except in the West we usually measure the samurai by his martial skills than his conduct towards his betters.

Some hold his views to be extreme. I hope to publish the most contentious here, and get some lively debate going! He was very critical, for example, of the Loyal 47 Ronin, because they waited a year before revenging their Lord. In his mind they should have struck immediately, regardless of the outcome.

Regards

Tom

[Tom Davidson]

Mr Popie - D'you know they named a song after where you live?

My take on this saying is 'real man' - The words are not Yamamoto's own, but expressed his sentiments (those of his Lord). I think he had a hankering for the 'days of yore' when men were men etc. and larger than life. Maybe like your mother in law http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif

But I do think you have a point about the times - it must have been particularly hard to follow someone with absolute loyalty when if it was politically expedient that person might cut you down without an instant's notice! The truly successful domains are those that flourished because their Lord extended and rewarded loyalty and thus collected men of worth (i.e. Takeda, and the Nabeshima!). The Tokugawa were successful at Sekigahara because they fought as one against an uneasy coalition.

Mind you, Ieyasu sacrificed his own wife and son as a poilitical expediency, and Takeda Shingen lived a pretty dissolute life after ousting his father from the Takeda domain until one of his retainers committed seppuku to shock him into line! Lies? why, butter wouldn't melt, as the saying goes.

regards

Tom

[hyaku]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Steinkraus:
Tom -

Thanks for the link.

Is this considered (in any sense) sacred writings by Shintoists?

If such a concept exists. I have almost no knowledge of the Shinto religion.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hello Mr Steinkraus

Most Japanese are extremley pragmatic about their religious philosophy. They observe the Shinto Rites for children until they come of age (20). They all want a Christian and a Shinto Ceremony when they marry.

Nearing death Buddhism fits the ticket.

A the end of the war proved the Emperor to be a human being and not a Shinto God, many new religions and cults have sprung up.

Regards CH. http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword

P.S . I will post some more of Hagakure in about a month

[hyaku]

Sorry, double posting

CH



[This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Tom Davidson]

Mr Popie -

I am a forcibly retired iaidoka - work circumstances, unfortunately; a pathetic excuse but the best I have to offer, but like all catholics, and those who are 'resting' - or is that actors? Our dojo was advised to take the name Hagakure at its founding by Fuji-sensei, to whom the mainstream kendo and iaido community in the UK will forever be in debt.

I find my home in history, these days. I'm currently [re]writing a Sengoku Jidai blockbuster http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif when work and family allows. I'll be posting excerpts online for critical appraisal by the E-Budoka shortly . . . (John - if you read this, I lost most of my MS in my own disk crash - did I have it backed up? Did I . . . all the more embarrassing when I'm a web producer!)

I share your educational background, although I was told that guilt, like so many things, was something we appropriated from the Jews, who actually invented it! have you checked with anyone on the Ninpo forum with regard to help with your domestic 'situation'? And you do realise we're going to get the pants roasted off us when some forum members of the feminine persuasion go through this thread?

I'm not sure about your take on Hagakure. I have always regarded it as a commentary on affairs rather than having some deeper or hidden meaning, although its very title says something . . . could I have missed the point entirely?

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the language aspect, and neither reading nor writing I can only go with translations. I suggest you join me in following Hyaku-sensei's website for sound advice on that one. He reads, writes, speaks and breathes the air of the Nabeshima fief.

Btw, please call me Tom. I used the formal address because I'm not sure of your forename. In Ireland, of course, you'd be PJ, along with a few million others.

Regards

Tom

[fowlerl]

The "seven lies" is a statement on the over use of speech and not a moral issue. You should have the resolve before you walk, and then the seven lies are irrelevant. Another's 'truth' cannot be yours, and 'truth' cannot be transmitted by speech by another. There is no time to change your 'truth'/perspective once you are out in the world; this must be resolved during your meditation/reflection at home.

lf

[Son of Thunder]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fowlerl:
The "seven lies" is a statement on the over use of speech and not a moral issue. You should have the resolve before you walk, and then the seven lies are irrelevant. Another's 'truth' cannot be yours, and 'truth' cannot be transmitted by speech by another. There is no time to change your 'truth'/perspective once you are out in the world; this must be resolved during your meditation/reflection at home.

lf<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's not go overboard here. I'm no scholar of samurai thought, but it seems clear to me that the message here is not to believe everything you hear.
I'f another's truth cannot be yours, then how do you know that he just told you seven lies? Also, if truth cannot be transmitted by speech, then it is impossible to lie, since a lie is a deliberate speaking of an untruth, a concept which requires that truth can be spoken (you cannot nullify a thing which does not exist).



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Chuck Hackney
SUNY Bujinkan
"It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect." Psalm 18:32

[fowlerl]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Son of Thunder:
Let's not go overboard here. I'm no scholar of samurai thought, but it seems clear to me that the message here is not to believe everything you hear.
I'f another's truth cannot be yours, then how do you know that he just told you seven lies? Also, if truth cannot be transmitted by speech, then it is impossible to lie, since a lie is a deliberate speaking of an untruth, a concept which requires that truth can be spoken (you cannot nullify a thing which does not exist).


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

see what i mean... too many words...

lf