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judasith
24th January 2007, 13:19
Dear Posters and Nathan,

In Italy there's a group claiming they teach legitimate Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. They say their teacher is a certain Carniel sensei of the "Seifukai" association. I checked the Japanese website of this "Seifukai":

http://www.seifukai.net/

It seems to me this is Yoseikan Budo or Yoseikan or in any case something derived from Mochizuki Sensei, but certainly cannot be called Daito-ryu.

Since I may not know this school I'm asking you to tell me if any of you think or knows that this is a legitimate Daito-ryu School, of which I have my *legitimate* doubts.

This is the website of Carniel Sensei:

http://www.anamj.ch/ANAMJ/Aikido.html


I believe this is another Kaze Arashi Ryu, I don't understand why they don't simply say "I practice Yoseikan" and must at all costs use tha Daito-ryu name.


Thanks to you all for your help.

Giacomo Merello

Chris Li
25th January 2007, 00:24
Dear Posters and Nathan,

In Italy there's a group claiming they teach legitimate Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. They say their teacher is a certain Carniel sensei of the "Seifukai" association. I checked the Japanese website of this "Seifukai":

http://www.seifukai.net/

It seems to me this is Yoseikan Budo or Yoseikan or in any case something derived from Mochizuki Sensei, but certainly cannot be called Daito-ryu.

Since I may not know this school I'm asking you to tell me if any of you think or knows that this is a legitimate Daito-ryu School, of which I have my *legitimate* doubts.

This is the website of Carniel Sensei:

http://www.anamj.ch/ANAMJ/Aikido.html


I believe this is another Kaze Arashi Ryu, I don't understand why they don't simply say "I practice Yoseikan" and must at all costs use tha Daito-ryu name.


Thanks to you all for your help.

Giacomo Merello

I saw "Aikijujutsu" several times, but I don't think that I ever saw "Daito-ryu" (unless I missed it somewhere). From what I could tell both sites were quite clear about their lineage from Mochizuki...

Best,

Chris

judasith
25th January 2007, 08:06
I know, the problem is with their italian students (that is students of the Swiss-french guy who writes "aikijujutsu" on his site) that magically changed "Budo Yoseikan Seifukai" in "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Seifukai"!

I really don't understand why people must always use Daito-ryu to cover what they do: it's not even a very popular art, even the real one!

Phil Farmer
8th March 2007, 22:45
I can tell you one reason for such confusion. Minoru Mochizuki was very much involved with Daito Ryu when he was still alive and living in Japan. He was often called on to consult with the Daito Ryu organization and there was a friendship demonstration in about 1992 at which, Mochizuki Sensei spoke, none to kindly as I understand it, to the group and the Yoseikan instructors did a demonstration. The connections to the original Hombu in Shizuoka are where the Daito Ryu input comes from. Unfortunately, the Hombu Dojo no longer exists and even the building has fallen into disrepair.

The Seifukai group are the instructors of Minoru Mochizuki who basically refused to cooperate with Hiroo Mochizuki and Yoseikan Budo, so they started their own group after Minoru left Japan to live in France with his son. There are still a few instructors from the old Hombu dojo days that moved to Italy and I am quite sure this is where the confusion has come from.

kimiwane
11th December 2008, 20:56
In Italy there's a group claiming they teach legitimate Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. They say their teacher is a certain Carniel sensei of the "Seifukai" association.

Giacomo,

Luigi Carniel is a very good man and a real expert in the arts of Minoru Mochizuki. He's based in Switzerland. He was very comfortable in the old hombu and had a long relationship with Minoru Mochizuki as well as Yoshio Sugino, like many of the French-based groups who learned through Alain Floquet, as I believe Luigi may have done. In any case, by the early nineties, when I met him at the hombu, he was well respected in his own right.


I checked the Japanese website of this "Seifukai":

http://www.seifukai.net/

It seems to me this is Yoseikan Budo or Yoseikan or in any case something derived from Mochizuki Sensei, but certainly cannot be called Daito-ryu.

Does it seem like yoseikan to you? As Phil Farmer's message above reflects, not everyone agrees. Seifukai was formed by the core of Minoru Mochizuki's most dedicated students in Shizuoka. Their art is the art he taught them as yoseikan budo for many years. I believe the seifukai comprises most if not all of the menkyo-kaiden holders. Seifukai is the art comprised by the menkyo issued by Minoru Mochizuki. In both English and Japanese, each certificate included the names of all the recipients and listed all the subjects each recipient had mastered. I believe that list included, in part, yoseikan nihon jujutsu, yoseikan aikido, yoseikan aikijujutsu, yoseikan judo, yoseikan iaijutsu and possibly yoseikan karate. I only saw the certificates briefly before they were awarded and I saw the award ceremony and who received the menkyo kaiden from Minoru Mochizuki. Patrick Auge was the only non-Japanese in the room and I believe all the recipients were in the room that day. Luigi was not among the menkyo recipients but if the seifukai does not object to his inclusion, he's certainly a worthy representative.


Since I may not know this school I'm asking you to tell me if any of you think or knows that this is a legitimate Daito-ryu School, of which I have my *legitimate* doubts.

I have a booklet presented by the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu hombu on some commemorative occasion in the early 1990s which shows a lineage of daito ryu from Sokaku Takeda to Katsuyuki Kondo. In the book, it shows Sokaku Takeda then Tokimune Takeda, then Sagawa and Kodo, then Morihei Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda and Minoru Mochizuki. Then they showed Katsuyuki Kondo as the current headmaster of daito ryu aikijujutsu. But Ueshiba and at least Mochizuki and Shioda were presented by the daito ryu as representatives of their art. Mochizuki actually received two scroll from Morihei Ueshiba in "daito ryu aikijujutsu". At the old yoseikan hombu dojo, Mochizuki had signs hanging from the eaves reading "samurai arts" "aikijujutsu" "judo" "jujutsu" "karate" and "kobudo".

I don't think Mochizuki Sensei ever gave anyone any rank in daito ryu, but he did give dan certificates in both aikido and aikijujutsu. So if the group in Italy calls itself aikijujutsu, it is probable that they have legitimate right to use the name. Especially if they are related to Luigi Carniel.

And even if they "say" that the art is "descended" from daito ryu, it is not wrong either.

Hope that helps.

By the way, as to the old dojo having fallen into disrepair, it was always needing something done to it. The last I heard, one of Mochizuki Sensei's last major students, a prison guard named Sato, had bought the dojo and was living in it with his own wife and children, using the dojo as the Seifukai hombu. I believe it continues now with dedication to the art of Minoru Mochizuki.

Mochizuki Sensei once remarked to me, "They say that if you have ten very good students, you art will live on. He then counted out Murai, Tezuka, Washizu, Sugiyama (older brother and younger brother) and Sugiyama who was teaching in Italy. Patrick Auge, Kenmotsu, and more. He convinced me that he had ten good men to follow him. He gave the menkyo kaiden to twenty men (maybe there were two or three women included--the total was twenty). The seifukai is an association of many of those people and they deserve real respect.

Best to you.

David

Simon Keegan
12th December 2008, 13:01
Mochizuki Sensei was also key in developing Nihon Jujutsu as it taught in the Kokusai Budoin (IMAF) organisation.

He was graded 9th Dan in Nihon Jujutsu as well as his 10th Dan Aikido by the group.

One of his students from the 1950s, Mitsuhiro Kondo is still a senior instructor in Kokusai Budoin.

Kondo Sensei definitely refers to what he teaches as 'Aikijujutsu.' But since IMAF has no Aikijujutsu "division" Kondo's grades are in Aikido, Judo and Karate.

When Mochizuki Sensei split from Kokusai Budoin to form IMAF Europe I think there was a conscious decision on the part of Kokusai Budoin to rebrand the arts away from being associated with Mochizuki Sensei, so Nihon Jujutsu was more or less standardised to "Sato Ryu" Nihon Jujutsu, predominantly a blend of Tomiki Aikido, Judo (created by Shizuya Sato). For this reason I suspect Kondo Sensei was asked to refrain from referring to his art as "Yoseikan" and simply use the name Aikijujutsu.

I don't think Mitsuhiro Kondo is any relation to Katsuyuki Kondo.

Kondo was one of Mochizuki Sensei's original students who came to Europe in 1956 onwards, the others were Hiroo Mochizuki, Tetsuji Murikami and Shoji Sugiyama.

I have trained with Kondo Sensei on one occasion and he was absolutely breath-taking, particularly his Sutemi Waza, which I understand was also a particular forte of Mochizuki Sensei. He also taught some resuscitation techniques the night before. Terry Wingrove Sensei told me that circa 1960 Kondo Sensei hosted some of Europe's first Karate/Aikido residentials at a ski-lodge in Switzerland. These courses were on behalf of Mochizuki Sensei.

So in terms of Mochizuki Sensei's students he also left a legacy outside of Yoseikan in terms of all the students he taught Nihon Jujutsu, Judo, Aikido, Iaido and Karate. For instance the late Kevin Murphy (UK) was graded to 7th Dan Kyoshi by Mochizuki Sensei.

And all of the UK's senior Karateka (with the exception of Charles Mack) began in Yoseikan, including Terry Wingrove, Andy Sherry, Terry O'Neil etc

kimiwane
12th December 2008, 16:28
So in terms of Mochizuki Sensei's students he also left a legacy outside of Yoseikan in terms of all the students he taught Nihon Jujutsu, Judo, Aikido, Iaido and Karate. For instance the late Kevin Murphy (UK) was graded to 7th Dan Kyoshi by Mochizuki Sensei. And all of the UK's senior Karateka (with the exception of Charles Mack) began in Yoseikan, including Terry Wingrove, Andy Sherry, Terry O'Neil etc

I'm afraid the American view of Yoseikan and Minoru Mochizuki's influence is very narrow. We tend to know only about students who came from Sadayuki Demizu's instruction and little else. Even though I spent some years at the Shizuoka Hombu dojo and met Sensei's students from around the world, I'm always learning more about the breadth and depth of that great man's teaching and the influence he had throughout Europe. In particular, I knew nothing about his descended students in the UK. Thanks for that insight, Simon.

David

kimiwane
12th December 2008, 16:49
In both English and Japanese, each certificate included the names of all the recipients and listed all the subjects each recipient had mastered. I believe that list included, in part, yoseikan nihon jujutsu, yoseikan aikido, yoseikan aikijujutsu, yoseikan judo, yoseikan iaijutsu and possibly yoseikan karate.


I believe the menkyo kaiden Mochizuki Sensei awarded also included "yoseikan gyokushin jujutsu".

Now, concerning "yoseikan budo" that name will probably always be a source of problems and confusion.

The fact is, Hiroo Mochizuki's art is his own art, developed through training with his father, but also through his extensive training with Morihei Ueshiba and many other masters.

Yoseikan is an old name with Minoru Mochizuki and it was the name of his bone-setting clinic in Shizuoka. It was the name of his first dojo and he used it throughout his life.

But it was Hiroo Sensei who created the name "yoseikan budo".

Minoru Sensei always taught by "section" so that he had yoseikan aikido, yoseikan judo, yoseikan jujutsu, etc. While each art had a common quality in Minoru Sensei's teaching, it was really Hiroo Sensei who decided on is own right to compile the arts into a unified whole and call the result "yoseikan budo." So that name really does belong to Hiroo Mochizuki and Hiroo Sensei was developing a very distinct thing from the beginning.

The problem is that Minoru Sensei took up the use of that name for his own very unique art and continued to develop that art with the assistance of such stalwarts as Murai Kyoichi, Akahori Sensei, Akira Tezuka (recently deceased), Washizu Sensei, Kenmotsu Sensei and Patrick Auge. They were the main ones who tested out Mochizuki Sensei's ideas on sutemi waza and helped him develop and refine them. He used them to create his art and his art was built by them. At the time I was there, his Shizuoka dojo had a beautiful sign on the door saying "Yoseikan Budo International Headquarters (hombu) Dojo." And he awarded the menkyo kaiden in "yoseikan budo".

It is ridiculous to try to rank Hiroo Mochizuki as below any of his father's students in yoseikan budo as Hiroo Sensei is the actual creator of yoseikan budo. However it is very wrong to denigrate the people who received menkyo kaiden in Minoru Mochizuki's yoseikan budo for whatever direction they choose to take that art that is very different from Hiroo Mochizuki Sensei's yoseikan budo. The fact that they have united under the name Seifukai (taken from the pen name Minoru Mochizuki often used, and the name of his periodic newsletter, "Seifu" ["correct" or "righteous" wind]) should be enough to satisfy anyone that they are not trying to "steal" anything from Hiroo Sensei or the Mochizuki family. The fact is that there were two distinctly different arts named "yoseikan budo" and the monjin of Seifukai earned the right to keep the art they received from Minoru Mochizuki.

David

Flintstone
12th December 2008, 22:33
Thank you very much, David. That was a very fair post.

Phil Farmer
9th January 2009, 15:51
I wanted to add just a piece of information to what David said above. Being from the U.S., I too had limited knowledge of Minoru Sensei's other students because of our being descended from Col. Demizu and his work in this country. Dr. Pack, our U.S. technical director is aware of the many other students in other countries but he was at hombu dojo a number of times over the years. What I also knew for the longest time was that Hiroo Shihan had gone to Europe and worked to put all of the arts together into what is now Yoseikan Budo.

What I did not know until just a few years ago was that in the 1950's, Minoru Sensei charged his son with doing this very thing, finding the connection that runs through all of the arts. I had assumed Shihan was working out of his own knowledge and desire but, according to Shihan himself, his father asked him to work and seek and find the connection. Some 40+ years later, when Minoru Sensei had moved to France, there was a day when Minoru Sensei (who demanded to go to a workout somewhere every day!) was watching a workout and called his son over and told him that he (Hiroo) had done it, he had found a way to put it all together, around one basic principle, the wave (or undulation) motion. It was not long after that, according to Shihans senior students, that the official ceremony with regard to becoming Soke was held. I, like David, never knew of this charge from father to son and I am even more amazed at the martial arts genious of both men. Especially when Shihan said that all he ever wanted to be was a Large Animal Vet! Thank goodness, his father and the kame had other plans.

kimiwane
14th January 2009, 22:19
...all he ever wanted to be was a Large Animal Vet! Thank goodness, his father and the kame had other plans.

???

I'm afraid you lost me with the turtle reference.

David

kimiwane
14th January 2009, 22:29
While the birth of Yoseikan Budo in the United States is often credited to Sadayuki Demizu, son-in-law of Minoru Mochizuki, that credit really belongs solely to Patrick Auge.

Demizu Sensei taught Yoseikan Aikido at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville and that is the art I entered in 1975 at the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa. I had actually attended the first yoseikan class at UA in February, 1974 and took more classes in the fall of 1974, but I only began dedicated training in the fall of 1975. That Yoseikan aikido was very interesting, much more like mainstream aikido seen in most aikido schools today. If you can find a copy of Bruce Tegner's little aikido book, you can see a Brazilian student of Mochizuki Sensei's demonstrating pretty much exactly what we were doing at that time. Until Patrick Auge arrived in early 1976, US Yoseikan practice involved no judo, karate or jujutsu and only a very general kind of sword usage.

When Mochizuki Sensei sent Patrick Auge to the US, he may have intended for him to teach only yoseikan aikido, but Patrick quickly introduced judo and karate to the training and added such katas as jutsu ri no kata, hyori no kata, tai sabaki no kata and ken tai iichi no kata. He also laid the foundation for the US Yoseikan Budo Association, of which he was a co-founder, and he created the Canada Yoseikan Budo Association. Without his strong judo and well-defined karate, as well as his detailed knowledge of ken-jutsu, there would have been no way for us to approach the kind of art Minoru Mochizuki was teaching in the hombu dojo. As it was, it was Patrick Auge's instruction that allowed me to last five years in Shizuoka, training at the hombu.

David

Simon Keegan
20th January 2009, 09:24
???

I'm afraid you lost me with the turtle reference.

David

I assumed he meant kama