do you practice getting hit while doing sanchin?

[john_lord_b3]

I am a wado guy now, but back then I did learn a little goju, and during DAN exam we did the training where we are struck by mawashi to the legs & sides, upwards instep kick to the groin, and reverse punches to the abdominals, while doing the sanchin. Incredibly, they don't hurt very much if we do the sanchin correctly. Is any of you practice this "getting hit waza" as well?

[trevorg]

Try kyokushin.

Osu
Trevor

[Trevor Johnson]

How else do you tell if your sanchin is any good, without testing it?

The way I was taught it we didn't just test with strikes. We also did pushes and pulls, resisting the movements and well as testing the static stances. Also, we weren't restricted to just a few targets for the pushes, pulls, and strikes, though obviously we didn't go full force on a bunch of the targets. (No shots to the kidneys and head, for example, though pushing on the head was fine. ) That really helps gain a nice dynamic sense of balance, having to keep the movements steady during variable resistance.

[trevorg]

I thought this site's guidance was quite good.
http://www.eastcoast.co.za/buddy/shimetesting.html

Osu
Trevor

[Mamu_Nestor]

I do WIKF Wado. We pratice getting hit (on the Uke side) with every drill and sparing session that we do. But we don't just sit there and let people hit us. Unless it is with a shinai and we are working stances.

[Trevor Johnson]

I do WIKF Wado. We pratice getting hit (on the Uke side) with every drill and sparing session that we do. But we don't just sit there and let people hit us. Unless it is with a shinai and we are working stances.

With sanchin, you're moving through a kata while this is going on. So evading isn't an option. This particular kata is designed specifically to improve balance, connection with the ground, and teach you that getting hit isn't the end of the world and that you can concentrate and keep continuous focus through chaos. It's not designed to teach evasion. (Which is why the hitting is constrained somewhat. If someone is not allowed to evade or block a strike , then you're not allowed to give them full shots to dangerous areas. )

Each training drill or strategy only teaches part of the whole, after all.

[john_lord_b3]

How else do you tell if your sanchin is any good, without testing it?

The way I was taught it we didn't just test with strikes. We also did pushes and pulls, resisting the movements and well as testing the static stances. Also, we weren't restricted to just a few targets for the pushes, pulls, and strikes, though obviously we didn't go full force on a bunch of the targets. (No shots to the kidneys and head, for example, though pushing on the head was fine. ) That really helps gain a nice dynamic sense of balance, having to keep the movements steady during variable resistance.

Hi Trevor! I forgot, sensei also did a kind of pushing, that is, using both of his palms to strike down and push down very hard on my shoulders (to check the integrity of the sanchin stance). And he also never strike the kidneys and head. You are right, if we don't do atemi no tanren, then we never know whether our sanchin is correct or not. So I am right to say that this kind of test is normal in almost all Goju styles? So, not just an act of mild brutality :) ?

I am Wado now, sanchin is not in Wado syllabus, so I don't do sanchin test much, except to myself. My present students absolutely refuse to even try to learn the Atemi no Tanren. I guess the upward groin kicks really discourages them :)

[john_lord_b3]

With sanchin, you're moving through a kata while this is going on. So evading isn't an option. This particular kata is designed specifically to improve balance, connection with the ground, and teach you that getting hit isn't the end of the world and that you can concentrate and keep continuous focus through chaos. It's not designed to teach evasion.

Yup, and that's the major fundamental differences between Goju and Wado (and that's why I transfer to Wado). Goju is a great style, the sanchin style teach us to have a strong connection to the ground, even the toes are pulled in to "grasp" the floor strongly. This is combined with soft, flowing circular blocks, so we have a balance between hard and soft. Wado, on the other hand, is a style built upon taisabaki, that is, evasion. I chose Wado because I have Jujutsu background (and are still practicing Jujutsu). Wado is more compatible with the Jujutsu I am doing. While Goju is more like southern Chinese Kungfu, and while it's a wonderful art in it's own right, I think it does not suit my character well (I prefer moving around and not getting hit, than stand my ground and try to be faster and stronger than the opponent :) ).

I am in the wado style for years now, but every now and then I miss my Goju experience. I still practice much of the Kata (mostly Gekisai, Sanchin, Sesan, Sanseru, Suparimpei, Saifa).

[john_lord_b3]

I do WIKF Wado. We pratice getting hit (on the Uke side) with every drill and sparing session that we do. But we don't just sit there and let people hit us. Unless it is with a shinai and we are working stances.

You're with WIKF? That's wonderful. GM. Suzuki visited us in the 1980s. We still practice some of the pairworks that he taught us. How is he doing these days? My teacher was a Kohai of GM. Suzuki when he was studying in Japan (before the 3-way Wado split).

[john_lord_b3]

I thought this site's guidance was quite good.
http://www.eastcoast.co.za/buddy/shimetesting.html

Osu
Trevor

Thank you for the info! Shime testing is cool :)

[Trevor Johnson]

Hi Trevor! I forgot, sensei also did a kind of pushing, that is, using both of his palms to strike down and push down very hard on my shoulders (to check the integrity of the sanchin stance). And he also never strike the kidneys and head. You are right, if we don't do atemi no tanren, then we never know whether our sanchin is correct or not. So I am right to say that this kind of test is normal in almost all Goju styles? So, not just an act of mild brutality :) ?

I am Wado now, sanchin is not in Wado syllabus, so I don't do sanchin test much, except to myself. My present students absolutely refuse to even try to learn the Atemi no Tanren. I guess the upward groin kicks really discourages them :)

We did a lot more tanren than just that, we did kicks to inner and outer thigh, a drill where we ducked punches and slapped/punched the lat, forearm conditioning, etc.

The whole point isn't really to become an immovable monolith of massive resistance; the human body can't physically do that. The goal is that, when you're evading, you don't worry quite as much when someone hits you, because you're conditioned, you can take it, and so your mind doesn't go flying away. Which in fact helps you slip a strike more easily, since you know how much you can take, and can let it slide off. (Plus, having harder forearms and shins helps when you're blocking or bashing.)

Plus, it helps you when you're really close and cannot evade, but must take strikes, slip them, etc, more like a boxer. Next logical step is grab and bash, twist, groin kick, knee, etc. Sanchin helps with this, not just because the classical kata stance can be tested by a groin kick, but because the knees are close, and can be lifted to block close-in kicks and knees easily. Even if your stance is a little wider, you can still get the foot in easily. I find that when I do the kata, I grip the ground, but when I try to use it, my feet end up being a little lighter so I can maneuver and block and strike with my legs.

[Kayden]

When we did Sanchin we had three differnt ways of testing the kata depending on what we were looking for. We would push on head, neck, fists, shoulders, hips, knees, and tail bones, we were looking to see that the stance was soild and that sharp heavy pushes would not knock the person over or allow them to be moved. next we would strike, (FREAKING HARD) on the shoulders, rips, sternum, thighs, back, and backs(ONLY) of the knees, this was to test the muscle control, pain tolerance, breathing, isometric control. And lastly we would strike lightly, flick, smack, brush and rub against the face, eyes, groin, inner thighs, and various release points to thes the iron shirt and the resistance to flinching.

In addition, when giving demos we would let kids hang off our arms and legs, pull my pony tail(at the urging of my Sempi) as well as breaking boards and sticks over legs, arms, and head.

Many of my classmates complained about this Kata. But it is the only kata that I use at least one tecnique from everyday that I live. I have used Sanchin in every fight, sparring match, and ruffhouseing I have ever done. If there is one thing every MA sould have it is this kata(or something similar)

[john_lord_b3]

We seems to be unanimous in our assertion that Sanchin is very important for Goju people (and even ex-Goju like myself still loves to do it). What about Tensho? I do Tensho as well, especially after doing several repetitions of sanchin. One of my teachers said that if we are doing Sanchin only without doing Tensho, our body will be "not in balance" because sanchin is "yo" and tensho is "In" (as in In-Yo/Yin Yang). Any comments about this?

[Kayden]

can someone Define Tensho for me I could not find a good definition on the net, I think I know what you mean though, I will wait to be sure.

[john_lord_b3]

tensho, the companion Kata of sanchin. It ends like sanchin, but the opening and middle part is rather different. Your stance is the sanchin stance, but you do open hand techniques to the 3 zones of defense (jodan, chudan, gedan). Usually it is performed 3 steps forward and backwards (no turn).

[Eisenheim]

I am Sandan in Shorinjiryu Kentokukan Karatedo and have been practicing karate for 9 years. I have never had to endure such a test to evaluate my sanchin stance. Maybe because my style of karate has origins in China, Okinawa and Japan (but mostly Chinese). While we are competitors and fighters, our kata are more developped with Shaolin influence.

Joel Neves

[Chris McLean]

It took me over 20 years of practice to realize one of the reasons that Morio Higgaona would use downward palm stikes to us from behind on our traps was to remind us to keep the shoulders down and remain in proper posture while performing Sanchin.

[john_lord_b3]

I am Sandan in Shorinjiryu Kentokukan Karatedo and have been practicing karate for 9 years.

Isn't that the Shorinjiryu of Hisataka "Kukan" (Masayuki) sensei, the one which does the Bojutsu and the armor (Bogu) Kumite?

[Trevor Johnson]

It took me over 20 years of practice to realize one of the reasons that Morio Higgaona would use downward palm stikes to us from behind on our traps was to remind us to keep the shoulders down and remain in proper posture while performing Sanchin.

That must have been 20 years of agony, then. Getting struck that way with the shoulders up isn't pleasant!

[Eisenheim]

Isn't that the Shorinjiryu of Hisataka "Kukan" (Masayuki) sensei, the one which does the Bojutsu and the armor (Bogu) Kumite?

Yes you are quite right Ben. The master of Shorinjiryu Kentokukan Karatedo here in Canada is Wayne J Donivan, he was the direct student and emmissary of Hisataka Sensei.

Have you already done this style of karate? I was a student during 9 years but stopped practicing with them last November for reasons I shall not mention here! :) And now I am an Aikibudoka (5th kyu only, switching from black belt to white belt was quite hard but now I am yellow!)

Joel Neves

[john_lord_b3]

Aikibudo? In Canada? are you affiliated to Mr. Alain Floquet?

I never formally trained in the Hisataka Karate. There was a Hisataka Karate practitioner who opened a study group in Bandung (a city south of mine), but that was years ago.

How does your sanchin differs with Goju's sanchin anyway? I've seen the Bogu Kumite but no Kata yet.

[Chris McLean]

Striking the top of the shoulders with both hands in open palm position is unpleasant whether your posture is correct or not the point is it is to remind the practitioner to be in good posture with the correct tension applied throughout the Kata. Something not always communicated verbally.

[Eisenheim]

Aikibudo? In Canada? are you affiliated to Mr. Alain Floquet?

Yes, my master is Mr. Damblant, Mr. Floquet's closest disciple. Mr. Damblant is 6th dan, while Mr. Floquet is 7th, if I am correct.


How does your sanchin differs with Goju's sanchin anyway? I've seen the Bogu Kumite but no Kata yet.

[Eisenheim]

To be specific concerning the Canadian Aikibudo, my dojo is in Montreal, and Aikibudo is mostly practiced in Quebec because of Master Floquet (France). He came last November for a seminar, here in Montreal, but I was still a white belt and a seminar so advanced wasn't my height.

Concerning the sanchin: the stance itself is the same, since stances in karate, whatever the style, are almost always the same. It is a very used stance in Kata Seisan (Shodan kata level).

Joel Neves

[john_lord_b3]

I have a video of Mr. Floquet demonstrating Aiki Budo, and also has some historical photos of him with Mr. Mochizuki, Mr. Sugino and Mr. Alcheik. I like the Aiki Budo demonstrations, especially the "counter flow" Kata.

In the Wado style, the Seishan has almost similar stance with Sanchin but a little bit wider, that's why it's called Tate Seishan Dachi instead of Sanchin dachi. The movement of Wado seishan is almost the same with Shotokan's Hangetsu but the stances are different. Also, only the first and second part of the Kata uses tension breathing, the last portion of the Kata is done fast.

How you perform your seishan?

[oldgoju]

Good Day,

I believe the original question was regarding sanchin kata. Sanchin Kata is somewhat regarded as the bodybuilding kata. All of the muscles in your body are tensed at the same time while performing chi kung style breathing. Sort of like isometrics. You are in sanchin stance with your hips locked forward.

It is a kihon kata of many Okinawan and Japanese styles. The reason it is performed is to create a body which can withstand every type of strike and kick. There is no bunkai to it. The striking is a test to be sure all of the body is tensed and strong. It is not intended to injure anyone. In the advanced stages of practice boards can be broken over the practitioner. It is my opinion this is done as a spectacle to recruit students and feed certian individuals ego's.

I thought we were trying to get past that but I still see folks do it. Anyway.

If you are doing sanchin and trying to avoid being hit you are missing the point of the kata.

K Moskie

[shotofan]

I don't know if this goes with the topic? But here goes. When I pratice with my friends we use about 75% power. We have had broken ribs, broken fingers etc.. I think it is a good way to train your body to handle the abuse you will recive in a real fight.
Don't get me wrong I hate fighting. But if u never been hit, then get into a fight in a way your body might have moment of shock. which might leave you open for few sec.
Plus if u don't really use some power u don't really get the feel if your moves will work. OR if you are really having your hand or foot int the right postion, so u won't hurt your self....

[trevorg]

How do you know you are punching at 75 % power ?

[2groggy]

I don't know if this goes with the topic? But here goes. When I pratice with my friends we use about 75% power. We have had broken ribs, broken fingers etc.. I think it is a good way to train your body to handle the abuse you will recive in a real fight.
....
Do you mean during Sanchin kata, or during sparring?

[shotofan]

I don't relly know 75%. just making a point. Both sparring and katas.

[trevorg]

IMO you shouldnt be doing kata at 75% or thereabouts. You may build up to doing a kata by slow practice, piecemeal, getting the technique right, but once you have achieved sufficient knowledge to run a kata through from beginning to end I feel there is no point in doing it less than 100%.

With regards to sparring to the extent that you feel you have exerted sufficient power to break your opponents ribs or your own fingers. In my experience this should no measure whatsoever to assess whether you are fight fit. The person with the broken ribs is not blocking correctly or covering himself adequately. The person with the broken fingers is using the wrong technique usually as a result of insufficient training. This can occur when using open hand against a kick such as mae geri instead of a clenched fist.

I have sustained broken ribs, toes and fingers during my early years of kumite but know I feel I know a little bit more about ma-ai, but nevertheless I still dislocated my ring finger the other week when I blocked open handed, and I can tell you the exact reason why this happened: I made a wrong assumption, I was sloppy and I should have known better.

Osu
Trevor



Get the techniques right

[shotofan]

True but I have seen people who only do point sparring or little no hitting get into a fight. When that happened they just stood there and didn't know what to do. The pain was to much for them.....
So training and getting some pain is better than little or no pain in my opinion.

[trevorg]

More fool them for not learning properly.
I still maintain that you dont have to break or be broken to learn how to win a fight. Sure, body conditioning is important but, as they say in boxing, protect yourself at all times.
Osu
Trevor

[shotofan]

I'm not saying get broken. But if u never get hit you can't train your body right. Its like people telling you all the physic in throwing a ball or how to play golf but if u never do it you won't get better.

[littleblackbelt]

I know very little about myself as a martial artist in this matter because it is not the way I train. However, I've watched with my own two eyes some famous men of karate who were all older than 70 for some years now. I've seen them take down healthy rokudans twice their size by the most minute movement. Their waza is so good that very little streingth is needed at all!

These are the people I respect, and I have never seen them do such things, nor recommed it to anyone as a training.

Therefore, I don't care if you can get hit in the groin while doing kata and not fall down. Isn't martial arts supposed to be for protecting the weak?

edit:
In my dojo, we strive to make controled contact when training. I think that is also an important thing to learn.

Besides, I've spent my life before karate getting beaten up for being a little girl with a big mouth. I like to think that my days of letting others hit me are over... though maybe it's just me... maybe guys just like the tar being beaten out of them or something, in which case, go ahead and ignore this post.

[john_lord_b3]

Hello littleblackbelt,

For sanchin training, getting hit (in SPECIFIC manners) is part of the training, sort of. It is a method to check the correctness of Kata performance. The upward groin kicks is to check the inner thigh muscles. The mawashi to outer legs is to check the outer thigh muscles. The gyakuzuki to the abdomen is to check the tension of the abdomen. The open-handed downwards slaps on the shoulders is to check the integrity of the sanchin stance. The mawashi to the sides is to check the tension of the latisimus muscles. So, in short, the strikes during sanchin training are supposed to be part of the Kata, it is to help us improve the Kata performance. In sparring and in self-defense, we will not just stand there and invite the opponent to "go ahead, nuke me, I am impervious to pain". We will, off course, prefer not to get hit :)

Hope this clarifies things !

[ZachZinn]

It's funny, i always thought my Sanchin was really good because my teacher concentrated mostly on the "hitting" to check for appropriate tension, I always seemed to do fine.

During my Shodan test (which was just in December) my teacher's teacher tested our Sanchin and mostly what he did was test our equilibrium, I found my Sanchin was not nearly so good in this way.

I assume that like anything there are lots of different 'levels' on Sanchin training and the overt hitting is only one.

[Trevor Johnson]

It's funny, i always thought my Sanchin was really good because my teacher concentrated mostly on the "hitting" to check for appropriate tension, I always seemed to do fine.

During my Shodan test (which was just in December) my teacher's teacher tested our Sanchin and mostly what he did was test our equilibrium, I found my Sanchin was not nearly so good in this way.

I assume that like anything there are lots of different 'levels' on Sanchin training and the overt hitting is only one.

Yeah. Hitting, in my training, has mostly been done while stationary. Then, when you move, resistance is applied. Of course, just for fun, instead of resisting your fists, they occasionally pull on them, which tells you how stable you are right there. Shoves and such are also interspersed with the hitting, to determine if your stance is good.

[john_lord_b3]

now that we are in 100% sanchin mode :) Has any of you practice the "sanchin all the way" mode, where you keep on doing the gyaku zuki with breath control while going forward, all the way, and only turn when you almost hit the Dojo wall? I tried this many times. Since my Dojo is not very big, I can manage to do 12 steps forward, 14 steps getting back to the starting point, another 3 steps forward, then the 2 steps backwards with the mawashi uke toraguchi.

To add more fun, do the sanchin hitting exercise when you do the turn and doing the steps back to the starting point ;)

[Trevor Johnson]

now that we are in 100% sanchin mode :) Has any of you practice the "sanchin all the way" mode, where you keep on doing the gyaku zuki with breath control while going forward, all the way, and only turn when you almost hit the Dojo wall? I tried this many times. Since my Dojo is not very big, I can manage to do 12 steps forward, 14 steps getting back to the starting point, another 3 steps forward, then the 2 steps backwards with the mawashi uke toraguchi.

To add more fun, do the sanchin hitting exercise when you do the turn and doing the steps back to the starting point ;)

Sure. We use it especially for beginners, since those steps are in the versions of sanchin that I know of, it can be considered the heart of the kata. The rest can be hard to remember, especially for beginners who don't remember which hand is their left, so we do that to get them accustomed to the stance, way of moving, &c.

[john_lord_b3]

Ahh for the good ol' days :) Sanchin is also some kind of meditation to me, meditation while standing and moving. So, the endless sanchin all the way mode to me is just like doing yoga, but while moving. Lots of fun, lots of sweat, we actually lose weight doing it.

[albert]

I have enough experience doing this kind of thing to be ok with it, and I am sure about the people i'm training with, the strikes during sanchin training are supposed to be part of the Kata, it is to help us improve the Kata performance.
Albert
http://caviarproducts.statesmanblogs.com/c...=Fitness/health
http://rennie.blogsavy.com/

[john_lord_b3]

The reason why we don't get injured while doing training is twofolds.. first we have prepared the body and the strikes SPECIFICALLY just to test the KATA performance itself. And secondly, there are no "evil intention"/"harmful intention" on the part of the striker. That was my impressions after I've been doing them for years.