Matsumura Nabe: Real or Fabrication?

[Ron Goninan]

Very, very little is actually known about Nabe Machimura and only one 'photograph' (a depiction possibly a painting) exists despite the fact that photo's had been taken on Okinawa during the time of his life. Of interest is the ‘depiction’ of Machimura Nabe shows a man reflecting a rather “Chinese-style” appearance. Is this depiction of a Matsumura family member or someone completely different?

It has also been reported that Bucho Machimura had only ever taught the family Hakutsuru to his son and that the enigmatic Nabe Machimura had learned the “Machimura-No-Hakutsuru” from someone other than his famous “grandfather”. The mystery regarding Nabe Machimura deepens as no accurate date exists for his birth or death and almost no information exists on Okinawa to confirm or deny his life.

Some have said that Nabe Matsumura never existed and is a fabrication. Others claim that Soken Hohan learnt the family art and Hakutsuru from his Aunty and that the personage of Matsumura Nabe is in fact a cover-up!!!

Is the mystery of this person more imprtant than the truth?Lets hear your thoughts on this subject.

Regards,

Ron Goninan ~ Shinshii
Innovative & Progressive Traditionalist
Kokusai Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Joe Swift]

Hi Ron <i>Sensei</i>,

First of all, I will not conclude that Soken <i>Sensei</i> was lying... this is a conclusion that is best avoided, unless one has substantive proof otherwise.

However, having recently begun delving into the study of the <i>Sanshin</i> (the Ryukyu version of the <i>Samisen</i>) and a deeper study of <i>Uchinaguchi</i> to complement my <i>karatedo</i> studies, I have found that "Nabe" (aka "Nabi") is more often used as a female name in Okinawa, than a male name.

Please note that this does <b>NOT</b> rule out the possibility of a male named Nabe, though...

[kusanku]

Hi Joe_ I fully agree that one should not conclude that someone that skilled , and that highly regarded, on Okinawa, as Hohan Soken Sensei, was in any way, lying.

Always good to hear from you Joe, and enjoy very much your articles and posts.

Your friend,
Kusanku( me'n Joe go Way, way back!:-)


A.K.A.

[Ron Goninan]

I do not think that he (Soken Sensei) was lying. Just that the shadowy figure of Matsumura Nabe may not be who it was historically thought to be.

I found your point about the female connection to the "Nabe" name very interesting. Any more details???

Regards,

Ron Goninan

[Ron Goninan]

Dear Joe,

Your study of Uchinaguchi intrigues me. Do you know anything of the term "Shinshii"???

I'm mainly interested in obtaining an accurate translation of the term and if at all possible, the Kanji for same.

Any chance that you can help me???

I'd be interested in your other discoveries regarding the Okinawan language as relates to the martial arts.

Regards,

Ron Goninan

[kusanku]

Ron- A question, if you please.

Why would you use the title 'shinsii' in your posts, if you don't know what it means?

Kinda like some guys I used to know, Shorin ryu types, but had a club name, in Japanese, the Tegeri Waza.

They thought it sounded really cool, even found the kanji for it.

No one ever thought to ask a Japanese speaking person what it really meant, though, until at a tournament, a Shotokan Ikkyu came up to one of them, looked at their patch, and said:'Hand Diarrhea Technique!My God, what are you guys teaching?!!:-)

That was a good question then, and it is a good question now.

Sure as God made little green apples , I am not calling myself by some Japanese , Okinawan or Chinese name, nor any art I do, unless and until I know For sure what exactly it means.

There's a soft drink in Japan, they used what they thought was an American sounding name, and wondered why no one over here would drink it.Calpis, pronounced as you think it would be, is still sold in Japan, so I understand.

But I wouldn't drink it , based on the mame. I wonder if its yellow in color, as well?

What's in a Name? Oh, you'd be surprised.

Kusanku( japanization of Chinese name Kung Hsiang Chiun, I understand t was a government title meaning something like Diplomat Boy, so , yes, one does ones research, and today, it is the name of the ultimate kata of Okinawan Shorin ryu.at least it don't mean Lily Livered Wimp or sump'n.:D

[Ron Goninan]

Kusanku,

The term "Shinshii" means "Teacher" and or "Gentleman/Teacher". My interest in this term is one of historical and cultural interest. I would like to hear others point of view on the term. for example, how it arose, the kanji for same and how such differs from that of the Japanese. Can the term be traced back to the Chinese influence on Okinawan culture. Soken Hohan used this term quite a fair bit .... was he the only one? Simple.

Understanding the language and culture of those who gave rise to the arts helps us to understand the arts themselves.

Regards,

Ron Goninan



[Edited by Ron Goninan on 12-26-2000 at 06:38 PM]

[Joe Swift]

Ron-sama,

Shinshii is merely the Okinawan pronunciation of the term Sensei (Xiansheng in Chinese). The kanji are the same in all three cases, but in Chinese the title is used more in a "Mr." context, rather than to a teacher/doctor/lawyer. etc.

The Japanese word Shinshi means gentlman and uses different kanji.

Hope this helps?

[Ron Goninan]

Joe-sama,

Thank you for your reply. How common is the use of this term on Okinawa? Do you know of other terms apart from the standard Sensei, Renshi, Kyoshi etc? I am very interested in the Okinawan dialect as relates to their martial arts and would greatly appreciate any and all help you can offer!

Regards,

Ron Goninan

[kusanku]

Thank you, Joe. The terms shinshii being then the Okinawan pronunciation of sensei, it may also be noted that sen sei is a compund word meaning (one who ws) Born Before. It does not actually mean teacher.But is sed in that context.

Also, no one in Japan or Okinawa ever, to my knowledge, refers to themselves as sensei.That would be a little strange, considering its meaning.

It can also be pronounced sien sin in Chinese.Same meaning, though teacher in chinese is Shih Tzu, sort of like the breed of dog in sound.

Shi Zi in modern Pinyin I believe.

The term Sifu or Shih Fu or Shr Fu is teacher father, also never applied to oneself.

far as ranks in old Okinawa, they didn't use 'em, far as I know. Everyone knew who could really rock, and who could really talk.

Just John, a k a Kusanku

[john mark]

Originally posted by Joe Swift
Xiansheng in Chinese ... the title is used more in a "Mr." context, rather than to a teacher/doctor/lawyer. etc.



Mr. Swift,

Xiansheng is also commonly used to mean teacher (as in elementary or high school teacher), but is not used as far as I know to refer to martial arts instructors.

Doctor = Yisheng
Lawyer = Lushi

Zhu nimen xian nian kuai le,