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Ron Goninan
23rd December 2000, 04:08
I was engaged in a recent phone conversation recently with a very respected and well-researched friend of mine when the subect turned to the Matsumura Hakutsuru form.

This enlightening conversation prompted me to make this post.

What are your views on the history of the form/fighting drill?

What lineage of Chinese Crane Boxing do you believe this form arises from and why?

Is it truly a form attributed to the Matsumura lineage or is it of more modern origin (ie: Soken Hohan)?

Lets hear your views.

Regards,

Ron Goninan ~ Shinshii
Innovative & Progressive Traditionalist
Kokusai Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

Hank Irwin
23rd December 2000, 04:55
Ron, could YOU eloborate a little more on what exactley it was that "enlightened" in that conversation?

waza22
23rd December 2000, 09:33
Mr. Goninan,

I hope this reply finds you well and in good spirits.

I think you and I both know my thoughts on this subject as we had a lengthy talk about it on another forum. I do not, at this point, believe in a Matsumura Hakutsuru Kata so to speak.

I have never run into anyone that could give me the explaination of why the form was given a Japanese name as opposed to a Chinese or Okinawan. My second thought is that if this kata exsisted why has it not been known until just recently? And why is it that all the people claiming to know this form not perform it in the same way?

I think that your comment about it being a fighting drill is more in line with the truth.

I do believe that the crane styles had a lot to do with the formation of Shorin-Ryu Matsumura,as it did with most of the Okinawan styles but, I do not believe they are the senthesis or upper eschelon of any of them. If one only looks at the crane aspects of Shorin-Ryu they are doomed to not understanding the style.

Could the Crane kata have been developed and passed on through Gokenki? If so then it would not have been a part of the Matsumura lineage.

I do hope that someone can shed some light here as I have not been able to find any reference to the Hakutsuru Kata from the Matsumura lineage.

If I may ask, who were you talking to on this subject?

My warmest regards,
William D. Gray

Hank Irwin
23rd December 2000, 14:26
Originally posted by waza22
Mr. Goninan,

I hope this reply finds you well and in good spirits.

I think you and I both know my thoughts on this subject as we had a lengthy talk about it on another forum. I do not, at this point, believe in a Matsumura Hakutsuru Kata so to speak.

I have never run into anyone that could give me the explaination of why the form was given a Japanese name as opposed to a Chinese or Okinawan. My second thought is that if this kata exsisted why has it not been known until just recently? And why is it that all the people claiming to know this form not perform it in the same way?

I think that your comment about it being a fighting drill is more in line with the truth.

I do believe that the crane styles had a lot to do with the formation of Shorin-Ryu Matsumura,as it did with most of the Okinawan styles but, I do not believe they are the senthesis or upper eschelon of any of them. If one only looks at the crane aspects of Shorin-Ryu they are doomed to not understanding the style.

Could the Crane kata have been developed and passed on through Gokenki? If so then it would not have been a part of the Matsumura lineage.

I do hope that someone can shed some light here as I have not been able to find any reference to the Hakutsuru Kata from the Matsumura lineage.

If I may ask, who were you talking to on this subject?

My warmest regards,
William D. Gray

Hello William! A can of worms just got opened. I think the "focus" on Crane Fist is for political, monetary, and personal gain(Mr. Ego) Not enough info(maybe there is none)seems to be available for many who just want to know some "truth". I have seen Matsumura Hakutsuru done 4 different no, 5 different ways. All claim to be authentic. What's up with that. Man, that's what's up! Bull****!!!! Okinawa Tourney to be here in Atlanta,Ga. August 2001. Many questions can be answered when this event takes place here. Will the reaaaal Matsumura please stand up!! Come on down, door #1,2,or 3?

waza22
23rd December 2000, 18:46
Mr Irwin,

I know how you feel. I have been in the middle of this foray for about three years now, WOW what a political mess.

Everyone wants the secrets of THE WHITE CRANE. While crane concepts are very usable and have their place if you rely solely on them you gonna get squashed. I have seen this happen and it isn't pretty.

The question about the crane kata have already been answered. I just think it is a sad situation when people have to resort to this type of behavior just for the all mighty dollar or worse yet the all mighty ego.

Tom Hunnicutt just returned from Okinawa, he was conducting a few interviews with some of the top instructors there including Nishihara. He will be publishing the material as soon as he is finished compiling it all. If you are interested in this information give me your e-mail address and I will let you know when it is availiable.

Who will be at this event in GA.? sounds interesting.

Have a great day.
Regards,
William D. Gray

kusanku
23rd December 2000, 19:03
No other style of Shrin ryu that I know or know of, has a Matsumura Hakutsuru in it.

However, Gokenki was a teacher of Hakutsuruken(Southern White Crane Boxing) and taught several kata,and many karateka learned some of these from him.

The Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does a Hakuturu they got from Gokenki, and it looks not unlike what I have seen from the Masumura.

That there are manydifferent versions of the kata should not be surprising.

In Tai Chi for instance, there are many different variants of the Tai Ch'i form even in the same school- there will be a short form, and long Form, and a Large Fareme, Medium Frame and Small Frame Form, nd a fast form.

All different but all based in the same theories and movement patterns.

But in many Chiese styles, forms are much 'looser' than in the ways we are accustomed to do them.

So that, if you like a particular movement, for instance the mawashi uke, or the double wing flap,you might do it as many times as you want to, in each direction you go, change front to back stepping, go four or even eight directions, and hey, whythe Heck not?:-)

Maybe Gokenki taught everyone different ways to do it.

Maybe he even did it different each time himself.

But that can be done in advanced kata practice, and anyone that doesn't know this, maybe need more practice..:D

Anyway, the secret of Matsumura or other Shorin ryu karate is to be found in Naihanchi kata. There is no highest secret in shorin ryu to be foud in hakutsuru not found in Naihanchi, and if you want to see all the secrets of Naihanchi unfolded, look at the kata Kusanku. Soken sensei said in an interview somewhere on the net, that when he was younger, Kusanku was the best and most important kata, but when he got older, hakutsuru is the best kata, because its easy to do.

Soken sensei had quite a sense of humor, judging by that inerview.

Elsewhere Soken sensei was reported as saying, if you have no time for practice, just do naihanchi every day, all the secrets of my movement are in Naihanchi.

Since all Shorin styles contain and many start with naihanchi, I would tend to believe that allthe secrets are to be found, in seed form, in this kata, and since in all Shorin styles, Kusanku is done and described as the supreme form, but not always the final one taught, of Shorin ryu and containing almost all or all of the shorin techniques and style within its movements,I ytend to understand and agree that naihanchi is the foundation and kusanku is the roof, of those styles.

Having said that, Gokenki was very popular and his art of hakutsuruken, which contained I believe five kata, was practiced by a number of karateka of other styles,whether in full and or in part.

That a karateka who had mastered a complete system such as Shorin-Ryu,
and had learned even one form of another system, be it Goju Ryu, Kojo ryu, Uechi Ryu or Hakutsuruken might pass that form on as an afterthought, and bill it as a family secret of his art

( for so it would be, no one expects a Shorin pracitioner to be expert, say, at Suparinpei, the final goju kata- but some are, and if they pass it on to one student as a secret, it would be a secret, that they would know and be good at this.This could provide a significant advantage in a real situation with someone who was expecting entirely different tactics . Say that a karateman also knew judo, but no one knew he or she knew it, except one student to whom he or she also passed this art- that would be a 'secret', wouldn't it, worth having and worth passing on to others?)

is not , as said before, strange.

I look at Hohan Soken's hakutsuru kata, photos and film of him doing which from 1960 exists and stills of which I have seen, and it looks like the gokenki type, to me, in this light, that his relative Nabe Matsumura, may have learned this kata from Gokenki, and passed it to Soken,
but no one will ever know now.

That Soken did something, called Hakutsuru, is not in doubt.That film and those phtos exist, and Soken was for real.

How he got it and where it came from, is another matter.

But White Crane is not a secret art.It is available world wide.

Its only a secret if you don't know it.:-)

Regards, Kusanku aka

Hank Irwin
23rd December 2000, 20:00
Originally posted by kusanku
No other style of Shrin ryu that I know or know of, has a Matsumura Hakutsuru in it.

However, Gokenki was a teacher of Hakutsuruken(Southern White Crane Boxing) and taught several kata,and many karateka learned some of these from him.

The Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does a Hakuturu they got from Gokenki, and it looks not unlike what I have seen from the Masumura.

That there are manydifferent versions of the kata should not be surprising.

In Tai Chi for instance, there are many different variants of the Tai Ch'i form even in the same school- there will be a short form, and long Form, and a Large Fareme, Medium Frame and Small Frame Form, nd a fast form.

All different but all based in the same theories and movement patterns.

But in many Chiese styles, forms are much 'looser' than in the ways we are accustomed to do them.

So that, if you like a particular movement, for instance the mawashi uke, or the double wing flap,you might do it as many times as you want to, in each direction you go, change front to back stepping, go four or even eight directions, and hey, whythe Heck not?:-)

Maybe Gokenki taught everyone different ways to do it.

Maybe he even did it different each time himself.

But that can be done in advanced kata practice, and anyone that doesn't know this, maybe need more practice..:D

Anyway, the secret of Matsumura or other Shorin ryu karate is to be found in Naihanchi kata. There is no highest secret in shorin ryu to be foud in hakutsuru not found in Naihanchi, and if you want to see all the secrets of Naihanchi unfolded, look at the kata Kusanku. Soken sensei said in an interview somewhere on the net, that when he was younger, Kusanku was the best and most important kata, but when he got older, hakutsuru is the best kata, because its easy to do.

Soken sensei had quite a sense of humor, judging by that inerview.

Elsewhere Soken sensei was reported as saying, if you have no time for practice, just do naihanchi every day, all the secrets of my movement are in Naihanchi.

Since all Shorin styles contain and many start with naihanchi, I would tend to believe that allthe secrets are to be found, in seed form, in this kata, and since in all Shorin styles, Kusanku is done and described as the supreme form, but not always the final one taught, of Shorin ryu and containing almost all or all of the shorin techniques and style within its movements,I ytend to understand and agree that naihanchi is the foundation and kusanku is the roof, of those styles.

Having said that, Gokenki was very popular and his art of hakutsuruken, which contained I believe five kata, was practiced by a number of karateka of other styles,whether in full and or in part.

That a karateka who had mastered a complete system such as Shorin-Ryu,
and had learned even one form of another system, be it Goju Ryu, Kojo ryu, Uechi Ryu or Hakutsuruken might pass that form on as an afterthought, and bill it as a family secret of his art

( for so it would be, no one expects a Shorin pracitioner to be expert, say, at Suparinpei, the final goju kata- but some are, and if they pass it on to one student as a secret, it would be a secret, that they would know and be good at this.This could provide a significant advantage in a real situation with someone who was expecting entirely different tactics . Say that a karateman also knew judo, but no one knew he or she knew it, except one student to whom he or she also passed this art- that would be a 'secret', wouldn't it, worth having and worth passing on to others?)

is not , as said before, strange.

I look at Hohan Soken's hakutsuru kata, photos and film of him doing which from 1960 exists and stills of which I have seen, and it looks like the gokenki type, to me, in this light, that his relative Nabe Matsumura, may have learned this kata from Gokenki, and passed it to Soken,
but no one will ever know now.

That Soken did something, called Hakutsuru, is not in doubt.That film and those phtos exist, and Soken was for real.

How he got it and where it came from, is another matter.

But White Crane is not a secret art.It is available world wide.

Its only a secret if you don't know it.:-)

Regards, Kusanku aka


Excellant! Excellant! It is so hard to find someone that shares so many of the same beliefs with you, and a relief! My Sensei saw MANY TsuruKen techniques done by Hohan Soken, NO KATA! He trained MANY years in Okinawa, and was an"inside student". He has an unbelievable amount of knowledge of which I am now just starting to take advantage of. I have NEVER been THAT much into "history" per say, just my own. But I am so intrigued by it I can't get enough! I think Hohan Soken used Crane Thinking in his approach to Machimura SuiDe in his later years. I have him on video doing the Kata you are reffering to, does look like GoGenKi. (For his age, unbelievable, especially at Bojutsu) But I am also told that while he was in Argentina he studied with a man named Oho So, and learned 4 TsuruKen forms from this man. These kata were passed on to me by way of Chuck Chandler. I have seen Tony Sandoval do these kata also and they look the same but are not. I am not sure where they learned these kata,I think Chuck learned them from Tony Sandoval, but I believe it was Takaya Yabiku that taught (maybe) Mr. Sandoval. I have seen video of Mr. Yabiku doing kata, and Mr. Sandoval"mirrors" him more than Chuck does. As far as KusanKu, I love it! Chinto also! I think my first encounter with "crane fist" was in Baton Rouge at a shiaa thrown by Sifu Louie Ilar in the mid 70's,(not sure if I spelled his name right)Southern White Crane, what a system! His fighters, were so skilled! Best kumite I have ever seen and been involved in. Not sure of their roots though. My next encounter was with (what I consider the first "Okinawan" crane system) Ueichi-ryu. The first kata I teach my students is Ueichi Sanchin, then Pinan 1,2, this will take up about 2 years of student for the "average" student. The rest of the Pinans you start learning at Shodan, Chinto at Nedan, KusanKu at Sandan. There is so much speculation regarding "secrets" to systems and techniques within them, but there are secrets, no doubt. This is just my humble observation regarding said topics. ALL replies welcome,this could be a very good thread! I have a real good video of O'Sensei Matayoshi doing a Tsuru Kata that is very powerful in execution, that was done in a gym, somewhere. It looks nothin like Machimura, except for a few Kamae, which seems logical. I imagine the different "study groups" that formed from Tsuru training embarked the deshi to expound on what they had learned, thus what we have today, MANY Crane concepts and quite a few kata to boot!

Ron Goninan
24th December 2000, 00:31
Excellent! Finally some serious, honest and interesting discussion regarding Crane-Fist! Thank you all!

Hank: Hello! great to be talking with you once again. I'm gald that the negativity of the past is just that .... in the past! The phone conversation I had was with a good friend and a very, very well researched individual but I don't feel it would be right to bring his name in to such a discussion without his permission. I will however, repeat some of the observations made. We were discussing the whole Crane-Fist mess and the relation to the Matsumura tradition. Several interesting aspects arose such as Soken Hohan being involved in taking 'girlie" pictures as part of his profession, if Nabe Matsumura ever even existed (see another post in the forum) and of course, the elusive and so-called secret of the Matsumura Hakutsuru "Kata". Without saying too much out of respect to my friend, it would be not too far of the mark to perhaps surmise that the "Matsumura Hakutsuru" is closely related in many ways to the Shokutsuruken (Feeding Crane) dforms as currently seen in Taiwan. It is also probably a safe guess that Soken Sensei was proficient in some form of Crane-Fist but did not exactly understand the full essence of that which he learnt, pieced together, modified and called "Matsumura Hakutsuru."

Keep in mind that the master's of old had feet of clay. They were human just like the rest of us. When an opportunity arose to 'market' a "secret" form or knowledge then perhaps they would grab it with both hands. After all, say something is a "secret" for only a chosen few and pretty soon everyone will want to know the secret!!! This is especially evident within Tsuruken/Crane-Fist Boxing which is really not all that secret at all! Certainly the Tsuruken on Okinawa is touted as "special" ... a "secret" when the reality is that few really know it and Okinawan Tsuruken is a very poor imitation of the Chinese originals! one need only look around today to see Crane video's and books being marketed as revealing "true secrets" and next thing you know someone is spending $$$ while another is getting rich from bulldust! Did it come from Gokenki? No I don't think so as there is no real evidence to support this view. What of the Matayoshi Crane? .... more likely Chinese Golden Rooster style then Crane.

Does Yabiku Sensei know some Crane forms? Yes of course. No doubt. But what was the source of those forms? I know. Is his USA student making money from selling so-called "secrets" .... do birds fly? the answer is a resounding Yes!

It's my feeling that the so-called "Matsumura Hakutsuru" has no connection at all to the Matsumura lineage at all. It was something Soken Sensei added on, perhaps as a marketing tool .... lets remember, we are talking about the human element.

Is it a "Kata?" Not in the modern convential sense. My belief is that it is more closer to a Futari-Renzokugeiko (Two-person Training Drill) in the Chinese sense than an actual "secret" kata. It is a fighting drill, nothing more, nothing less and certainly no secret!

Lets hear more on this subject!

Regards,

Ron Goninan.

Ron Goninan
24th December 2000, 01:44
Just a side note to this discussion and seeing that Yabiku Sensei has been mentioned.

I have quite a large personal collection of Yabiku Sensei (and others: Katsuo Kishimoto etc) demonstrating Tsuruken and Kobudo kata/concepts which I will happily make available to anyone who asks for same provided they cover the costs of the video tape and postage.

This footage includes his Koshiro/Kojo-Ryu Kata including a recent public performance by Yabiku Sensei of Koshiro-Hakutsuruken filmed this year (2000).

No secrets, no bulldust and no big fee's ($$$) to make someone else rich!

Regards,

Ron Goninan

Hank Irwin
24th December 2000, 03:12
Originally posted by Ron Goninan
Excellent! Finally some serious, honest and interesting discussion regarding Crane-Fist! Thank you all!

Hank: Hello! great to be talking with you once again. I'm gald that the negativity of the past is just that .... in the past! The phone conversation I had was with a good friend and a very, very well researched individual but I don't feel it would be right to bring his name in to such a discussion without his permission. I will however, repeat some of the observations made. We were discussing the whole Crane-Fist mess and the relation to the Matsumura tradition. Several interesting aspects arose such as Soken Hohan being involved in taking 'girlie" pictures as part of his profession, if Nabe Matsumura ever even existed (see another post in the forum) and of course, the elusive and so-called secret of the Matsumura Hakutsuru "Kata". Without saying too much out of respect to my friend, it would be not too far of the mark to perhaps surmise that the "Matsumura Hakutsuru" is closely related in many ways to the Shokutsuruken (Feeding Crane) dforms as currently seen in Taiwan. It is also probably a safe guess that Soken Sensei was proficient in some form of Crane-Fist but did not exactly understand the full essence of that which he learnt, pieced together, modified and called "Matsumura Hakutsuru."

Keep in mind that the master's of old had feet of clay. They were human just like the rest of us. When an opportunity arose to 'market' a "secret" form or knowledge then perhaps they would grab it with both hands. After all, say something is a "secret" for only a chosen few and pretty soon everyone will want to know the secret!!! This is especially evident within Tsuruken/Crane-Fist Boxing which is really not all that secret at all! Certainly the Tsuruken on Okinawa is touted as "special" ... a "secret" when the reality is that few really know it and Okinawan Tsuruken is a very poor imitation of the Chinese originals! one need only look around today to see Crane video's and books being marketed as revealing "true secrets" and next thing you know someone is spending $$$ while another is getting rich from bulldust! Did it come from Gokenki? No I don't think so as there is no real evidence to support this view. What of the Matayoshi Crane? .... more likely Chinese Golden Rooster style then Crane.

Does Yabiku Sensei know some Crane forms? Yes of course. No doubt. But what was the source of those forms? I know. Is his USA student making money from selling so-called "secrets" .... do birds fly? the answer is a resounding Yes!

It's my feeling that the so-called "Matsumura Hakutsuru" has no connection at all to the Matsumura lineage at all. It was something Soken Sensei added on, perhaps as a marketing tool .... lets remember, we are talking about the human element.

Is it a "Kata?" Not in the modern convential sense. My belief is that it is more closer to a Futari-Renzokugeiko (Two-person Training Drill) in the Chinese sense than an actual "secret" kata. It is a fighting drill, nothing more, nothing less and certainly no secret!

Lets hear more on this subject!

Regards,

Ron Goninan.




Ron, is it possible that your friend would consider joining E-Budo? I know some of our brothers here would probably welcome this also, eh guys?

Paul Wollos
24th December 2000, 05:17
Hi,

Sorry for interrupting, just something to add:

quote:
>>But White Crane is not a secret art.It is available world wide. Its only a secret if you don't know it.:-)

Regards, Kusanku aka<<

Are you sure? What Crane style can you learn worldwide? Maybe taught by Mr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, or some forms taken from Five Animals Fist, but the original Southern Crane is very, very rare.
I think there are some teachers of Flying Crane and Jumping Crane. I don't know of anybody teaching Whooping Crane and Sleeping Crane outside China.

Feeding Crane: my Taiwanese Shifu, Mr. Lio, Chin-Long (Head of the Style, which BTW no longer exists in China) never taught foreigners. His brother did, however that's a different story. The original version of Feeding Crane seems slightly different from my teacher's younger brother's one. Still, there is no legitimate school outside Taiwan.
Anyway, I'm the first foreigner allowed to learn it, and I must say, its really very secretive, yet vicious martial art.

There are many Chinese (from Mainland, Hongkong, and Taiwan), who claim to teach Crane Fist. Its really profitable perhaps. However questioning some of their qualifications would certainly do no harm.

I hope I can answer some questions here, but your knowledge of Okinawan systems is really far to great, I'm not an expert. All I know about the subject is maybe a book by Mr. McCarthy: "Bubishi, The Bible of Karate".

All the best,

sincerely yours

Paul Wollos

Ken Allgeier
24th December 2000, 17:08
If anyone is interested, their is a video from 'Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu' with the Kata "Hakutsuru" on it, both can be found from http://www.dragon-tsunami.org and at http://www.kamikazeweb.com.

According to J.Sells pg 233, The Gokenki Hakutsuru is also several different kata.The shorter kata is known as Hakucho.Matayoshi's organization teaches the Gokenki Hakutsuru.






ken allgeier

[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 12-26-2000 at 10:11 PM]

kusanku
25th December 2000, 02:19
Maybe on this thread we can, and it is certainly time, to, share some information concerning this subject of Crane Fist and its relation to karate.

Mr. Wollos, regards, and to answer your questio about what kinfd of White Crane can be learned world wide: Yes, Dr. Yang's style , via books and videos, is available, as well as seminars, I have a friend who is a Jiujitsu Sandan, who now studies White Crane, Chigong and Chin na, most of the latter of which comes from White Crane, with Doctor Yang, and with whom ( Jiujitsu guy)I do exchange ideas and training at intervals.

Though I am not a White Crane practitioner.

Dragon Videos also has a Chinese individual teaching White crane forms and concepts.

However I do know that in San Francico and other Chinatowns White Crane is publicly taught.

More than true that your style is not yet, perhaps, but others are.In Chicago a man teaching Lam Ma or Norhtern Style Crane Form , and who is world renowned, teaches, and hsi publications and students present the whole of the art.

The principles, forms and techniques, jing patterns, and qigong, of certain styles of White Crane are thus, available world wide, in books, videos, and articles, as well as seminars.

Now some these guys who practice the Okinawan versions, I don't know about.Like I said, I am not White Crane guy.I am not a Daito RyuAikijujitsu guy either, but I know that Mr. Katsuyuki Kondo is an authority on the art that you can't get better than, and I know that some of the teachers of White Crane in the US are also good, because I have crossed hands with their students.

There is a man in Chicago whose name I will not mention because I haven't permission to, who is a master of White Crane and other arts, and spent fifteen years in Mainland China learning these arts.

I know he is good because a Tai Chi master of my acquaintance tells me that this man and he sometimes have sparred, and that the man had very 'effective ' techniques.

There are such teachers, and their existence, despite my not naming Peter never mind:-) , is not a secret in the martial arts community.

A little asking the right people goes a long way.

But the Tsunami videos, and Dr. Yang's work, do provide an insight into the formerly secret world of White Crane, and show its relation to other art, Southern styles and Tai Chi among them.

As far as what Mr. Kass says, same here.

Us Shorin types realize that the secrets to an old style are always taught first, and in Shorin ryu, that's Naihanchi.I will say that in Dr. Yang's book on White Crane, he does a drill that contains most of the Naihanchi movements, in different order, but its not a form, just the elements of one.

In the Chinese systems, the secrets too, are contained in the first forms and the chi gong of the art.Or so it seems to me.I know as a rookie Tai Chi practitioner that this is so, all the knowledge of the system is condensed into the first four moves, if you know everything that can be done with and go into them.

As to how little instructors actually understood about certain arts, they are not here to defend themselves and I did not know Mr. Soken but my teacher met him on occasion.I understand that he was extremely good.

Probably a lot better than any of us are yet.

If I forgot to mention anyone, Hi to all,and I second the feeling about using titles on sigs.Lord, if we all did that, we'd be all day just reading ranks and titles, half of them unknown in China or Okinawa.:D

So, if we want to find out about White Crane, here, maybe Mr. Irwin could maake some copies of the Soken tape, which I know that's that early one, made way before the hakutsuru was popular anywhere.

I don't think Mr. Soken was using Hakutsuru to make money, I think he was using it to train.

He was pretty well known before any hakutsuru was taught by him.

And his other kata are all good.Why wouldn't that one be? As for no evidence for it coming from Gokenki, it looks like Gokenki's hakutsuru as the Hayashi Ha people do it, and they got theirs through GoKenki.

More'n one way to skin a Crane.:-)

Oh and finally, one word about if you only use Crane techniques you gonna get squashed.I'm
sure that you meant only using the crane part of shorin ryu, many White Crane fighters would I am sure disagree most strenuouosly about the getting squashed part.:-)

In shorin ryu, we have two primary attacks, the front punch of whatever vriety, and the front snap kick,and numerous secondary ones, hammer fist,knife hands, palm strike, etc., we have one primary defensive strategy, which is tai sabaki as you hit or reverse the grabbing or the incoming limb,and several secondary ones, stand and defend, move in , etc., and on counters we have four primary means:'strike, kick, lock or throw, and combinations of the above.

Shorin ryu is a circle from any point of which softness can suddenly become hard and then soft again.

If this is understood and put into action while the kata are grdually mastered, even the naihanchi is enough.

For those wishing to see what happens when naihanchi is unfolded, the Kusanku and particularly the yara kusanku are the outward display of the high level applications of shorin ryu.

The other kata represent the intermediate stages in the unfoldment of the meaning of the naihanchi One kata,and also represent areas of speciallization from the principles shown in that kata and its other two stages.

What all this has to do with hakutsuru ken, I do not know, however.

Kusanku

Hank Irwin
25th December 2000, 02:46
John, have you ever heard of Naihanchi reffered to Naifunchin? I heard this was a Chinese refference to it. Do you know if this is so or not? I also feel the same as you do about Naihanchi. There is so much info in these quite short kata. The fighting applications are vast and devastating. Have you ever heard of O'Naihanchi? Oh yeah, the video of Soken Sensei, I would share gladly with anyone who wishes a copy. Just drop me a line. This video is not as good a quality I had hoped,( I've had it for quite awhile now too) but it shows O'Sensei doing Naihanchis,KusanKu, Chinto, Seisan,Gojushiho,Tsuruken and some Bo kata that I am not quite familiar with, and a NunteBo Kata with the Bo.I wish I could have had the pleasure of meeting him, but will suffice for his signature on some of my older certificates. I have had the pleasure of meeting and training with Kise Sensei, Whoa!

Victor
25th December 2000, 04:43
Ron,

I have a personal question which I believe needs addressed pubically.

You write "I'm glad that the negativity of the past is just that .... in the past! ........ We were discussing the whole Crane-Fist mess and the relation to the Matsumura tradition. Several interesting aspects arose such as Soken Hohan being involved in taking 'girlie" pictures as part of his profession, if Nabe Matsumura ever even existed (see another post in the forum) and of course, the elusive and so-called secret of the Matsumura Hakutsuru "Kata". "

Perhaps I'm oversensitive because its Christmas Day, but I think you're post brings a hell of a lot of negativity with it. Discuss Matsumura Hakutsuru all you wish, that can be interesting...

But gossip about a dead man, which nobody can substatiate, and even if they truly can, what purpose is served martially, unless you just wish to offend those who follow his tradition, and try and discredit him.

That's wrong, for anybody to play!

I don't follow Matsumura Orthodox.. etc. And am only tagentially interested in White Crane, but I believe this sort of behavior deserves comment.

The intelligent discussion on the role of Hakutsuru and various Crane forms, such as Kakufa, and the relationship to serious Crane systems in existence, well and good.

Can't we just leave it on a purely technical level.

Hank Irwin
25th December 2000, 05:42
(Quote) My Sensei saw O'Sensei Soken do many TsuruKen technique, NO kata. "WRONG!!!" There are quite a few TsuruKen kata, one being Neisan. Sensei Osborne learned this directly from O'Sensei Soken. I didn't know it was a TsuruKen kata myself because I haven't learned it yet. These kata I reffer to are Matsumura Crane kata. Now sure where all the links are as of yet, I don't know. But I am going to do my best to explore a little more. We talked a little about Naihanchi also, and Sensei and I also agree( ask Ron) Naihanchi stuff is some bad stuff! Learned from an authentic Sensei, that is. Oyata Sensei's Naihanchi is devastating to say the least. Naihanchi is the basis for "some" Shorin systems, but not all of them. In fact the "root" Shorin(Ji-ryu) I learned was based on Wansu, Annaku and Seisan(not Tomari Seisan) We do ALL the Naihanchi kata also. There are also clan Naihanchi kata.

waza22
25th December 2000, 06:55
To Everyone,

Merry Christmas!

Kusanku, you are correct in your in your comment about the crane concepts and being squashed. It was someone who was so caught up in the crane, that it was(to him) the only tool needed. It was not pretty. Have crossed with a few crane practioners myself and have found them challenging.

Mr Irwin a question if I might? Who is your instructor?
The reason I ask is that you say Soken taught many crane kata. Now I understand that there are crane concepts in all the Shorin-Ryu Matsumura sylabus, but which crane kata did he teach? And when? To whom? Kise is a good practioner of the arts. I do not care for him as a person but that is irrelevent. The katas you mention, Wansu, Annanku and Seisan are Shorinji katas not Matsumura (as I was taught). We use them in our sylabus but they are not a Matsumura.

Well good day Gentlemen and have a great holiday.

Regards,
William D. Gray

Hank Irwin
25th December 2000, 14:44
Hello William, my teacher is Roy Osborne. And the system he taught me is Shorinji-ryu. Still, it is Shorin. If you look at all(just about) the Shorin kata, you will see crane concepts. I think all the styles adopted some form of crane thinking into their systems. Crane concepts work extremely well when intergrated within the system you are studying. You can use them in ANY style, like many other concepts(tiger, dragon, snake,etc) The crane thinking O'Sensei Soken used was not only the actual fighting techniques, but the strategy produced by crane concepts. I think(personally) studying crane concepts will improve your own system, not replace it.

kusanku
25th December 2000, 18:06
Victor- Right On!
William-Agree.

Hank-I have heard naihanchin refered to as Naifunchin and Ne Huan Chien. never ever seen a Chinese version though.

As far as your system of shorinji ryu, that would be Joen Nakazato's?Root katas of Wanshu, Ananku and seisan are also used by Shian Toma's Seidokan Shorinryu.

I note that all who teach those katas teach as well, the Naihanchi katas.
At least the first one.

In whichever order one does the kata, the naihanchi provide foundation, and the wanshu ananku and seisan, which I do right afterwards,provide the unfoldment.

But in some styles, the Pinans are done first, preceded by the fukyugatas (that's right, it means unified , I hear:-), and then the naihanchi. Naihanchi still gives the root, the horse stance training, and the hand kenpo, or fist methods(ch'uan fa) of the shorin system.

Makes more sense to do naihanchi's first imo, nut they are a little difficult, so I understand why other katas are taught first, that can be done more easily Naihanchi one is quite easy to perform, but two and three, timing and performance can be difficult.

As for the other crane katas you learned or your teacher did, those sound interesting. Glenn Premru, an early American student of Soken, says that Soken taught three systems, including two systems of Crane Fist and Tuidi,all from Machimura (matsumura) containing eighteen additional katas per sytem, and that he knows them all.Premru learned from Soken in the Sixties and says he is the only one to whom Soken taught all the sysems and kata, in America. This is all on Premru's website.

That is eighteen hakutsuru kata, he says.And eighteen more and another complete system, beyond those.

Of the truth of any of this, I do not know, but of its falsehood I do not know either.

I have a drill I put together from some things that were shown me, called Eight Hands.Now, I created the drill, and named it, but not the principles or moves in it.

I show it to everyone I teach, as a basic tai sabaki and intercept drill for self defense, to which they can add all their other techniques as needed.

BASICS, AND SOME PEOPLE, LEARN NO MORE NOR WANT ANY MORE, THAN THAT.

And that is fine with me.If you asked any of these people, 'Well, does John have any other drills like that? They might say, 'I never saw any others taught.'And they would speak the truth.

Others might say, 'He does not.' And they would speak what they thought was the truth.

Others would say, 'Yes, he does, and one is called Sixty-Four Hads, and it is a follow up designed to be combined with and applied thru the Eight Hands.'

And many would cry,'LIAR!' and those who cried Liar would be wrong, thought they would think themselves defenders and upholders of the truth.

I do have further drills, lots of them, an entire system of them in fact, and sixty-four hands comes after the Eight hands, but since I teach karate as classical systems as well, most never learn this or know of it.

But if someone wanted to learn just my self defense system or my very complete revised system, they would learn all that.

But why trouble people with things they neither need nor want?

Possibly Soken Sensei was the same.Just look how much abuse he gets after he was dead.

Notice no one talks that way about Taika Oyata?Does anyone really have to ask why that is?

Soken was no one to mess with, and the people saying bad things about him now,wouldn't have daed say anything like that to his face, or to his student's faces.Not more than once.

I'm sorry, but that's the truth.

As for those who throw the most mud , they usually are the ones with the feet of clay and the most to hide.

As someone on this thread knows, some of us know that about them.Some who post on other forums that the used also to post on, and who know what went on.

'Nuff said? Knock off the negativity.The past is past for you, let it be also past for Sensei Hohan Soken. You know who I'm talking to, so there's no need for me to be more specific, is there? I remember how when, on that other forum, I no more than posted a humorous little entry to your forum, than you went ballistic and said you knew who I was, I was trying to interfere with you, and us High ranking Shorin people shouldn't try to upset your applecart.:-)

And then I said, no, you don't know who I am,but if you e-mailed I would say, and you never did.

Well, I wasn't then, and I am not now, but let's not bring a bunch of backbiting, lies and second guessing to this forum, or upset your applecart I will and you will think I am a real meanie, to boot!:D A Blue one at that!

Everybody else, I was probably not talking to whom you think I was!:-)

Regards,
Kusanku






[Edited by kusanku on 12-25-2000 at 12:14 PM]

waza22
25th December 2000, 18:49
Hello Everyone,

What a great thread. I love the fact that just about evryone here agrees to most of what is being said and taught. What a shining example of what can happen without the politics. I applaud the people involved in this thread.

Kusanku, if you want some information on Mr. Premru you might want to talk to Tom Hunnicutt. Mr. Hunnicutt studied with Soken for quite some time and has made great effort to meet and talk to anyone who studied with Soken. Mr. Hunnicutt is a very gracious man and I think you will find him very interesting and informative. He knows Mr. Premru well. Now, don't get me wrong, Mr. Hunnicutt is not the type to slam anyone unless they are found to be charlatans or flat out liars, he values and understands the differences in what was taught to different people by Soken.
Give me a e-mail and I can give you the his contact info.

Mr. Irwin, thanks for clearing up what style it was. I have met and trained with a lot of Shorinji stylist and have a great deal of respect for the ones I have had the pleasure to train with. I agree that the concepts and stradegies of the crane system are very usefull. I am sad to see so much time and worry over one small aspect of the art. I am by no means a high ranking know it all, I am just a student and am grateful that I have trained with the people I have.

Good Day All,

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,

Regards,
William D. Gray

Hank Irwin
26th December 2000, 01:18
The system of Shorinji I learned was passed on to Sensei Osborne from Sensei Kise and Sensei Oyata. Sensei Kise was a close family friend of the Shimabukuru(Zenryo Sensei)Clan. Sensei Kise also learned Shorinji-ryu from O'Sensei Maeshiro. Sensei's Oyata, Kise, and Toma were all students of O'Sensei Maeshiro and friends to boot for a long time. There is not a lot of info relating to what the studies intalled while Sensei Kise studied with the Shimibukuru Family. He was ranked by O'Sensei Zenryo as I believe 5-6 Dan. I have never seen any of Nakazato Sensei's students do kata so I am unfamiliar with the way they do things. I know rising fist-punch is a standard with them from what I have read, but not with us. We us it but in different applications. Our standard is 3/4 turn, middle knuckle first. Wansu is the root kata for the Shorinji I learned. There is a principle called Iron Wall that is learned in Wansu that is throuhgout all of the Shorinji Kata. It is called Cranes Wing Defense in some circles. It is a self-offense kamae that is used as a vehicle to execute every waza in all of the kata I learned from Sensei Osborne. Sensei Oyata uses these same principles also. These principles are very evident in all Shorin systems but for some reason are not taught in many Dojo. Arnis is built upon this principle, block,check and parry. From what I understand, the Naihanchis come FROM China and started out as one long kata. The Chinese schools they came from were supposedly called Saika and Naika(warrior class schools in southern China, don't know how true this is though)) They almost look a little Lohan-like(imo) without the jumping. Deep kibadachi like stances. I don't know much about the birth history of Naihanchi, just like what's in 'em. I know a lot of influence came from China, but I don't think ANY one knows just how much. But that is ok. Leaves room for many to pursue finding out. That's a BIG job by itself.


Mr. Premru, I do not know. But I have heard about him from MANY people though, much of what I have heard is NOT good. My Sensei knows Mr. Premru, and says he is a dancer. His kata is real pretty, but he CANNOT fight. Reminds me a little of Funakoshi. I think Choki Motobu said the same thing about Funakoshi, and he was right.

Hank Irwin
26th December 2000, 02:39
I "think" everyone that was here last year will be attending, but I am not sure. Sensei's Yomoyose, Yagi, Nakazato, Shimabukuru, Ueichi(Isshin-ryu) and I am sure many others. For a lot of the Sensei I think it will be their first trip. I myself hope as many Sensei that can come,do. I wonder why it is actually coming to the US? I have a feeling this event is going to be huge. It will give many of us a chance to meet. What's that Okinawan saying,"When we meet and talk, we become friends." Ichireba Choode, I think is how it's pronounced. I think. I need a bromoseltzer guys, too much pecan pie I think. Also, I wonder if this event is going to be scheduled as a "tour"? I will have to find out. Has anybody else heard about this event?

Paul Wollos
26th December 2000, 05:08
Quote:
>>Mr. Wollos, regards, and to answer your questio about >>what kinfd of White Crane can be learned world wide: Yes, >>Dr. Yang's style , via books and videos, is available, as >>well as seminars, I have a friend who is a Jiujitsu >>Sandan, who now studies White Crane, Chigong and Chin na, >>most of the latter of which comes from White Crane, with >>Doctor Yang, and with whom ( Jiujitsu guy)I do exchange >>ideas and training at intervals.
>>Though I am not a White Crane practitioner.

>>Dragon Videos also has a Chinese individual teaching >>White crane forms and concepts.

>>However I do know that in San Francico and other >>Chinatowns White Crane is publicly taught.

>>More than true that your style is not yet, perhaps, but >>others are.In Chicago a man teaching Lam Ma or Norhtern >>Style Crane Form , and who is world renowned, teaches, >>and hsi publications and students present the whole of >>the art.

Mr. Vengel,

Yes, it may be that some Crane Fist is taught very publicly in States. Yes, many movements can be found similar to Karate... well, in most styles of Chinese Quanfa, not only in White Crane.

I thought the main interest of people, who research the subject is in Southern White Crane styles. In my opinion others have no relevance. Dr. Yang's version of White Crane certainly does not resemble any of the following 4 original styles of Crane Fist from Fukien province:
- Feihequan - Fying Crane (+ its sub-style: Jumping Crane - Zhonghequan)
- Minhequan - Whooping Crane
- Suhequan - Sleeping Crane
- Shihequan - Feeding Crane

These styles are the ones, from which many practitioners of Okinawan MA claiming their origins, besides other Kempo from China.
If these styles are well known, well, that's great! We can always visit and see how they look, then compare it, and use it for research.

BTW, do you thing that there are no charlatans in Chinese MA community? It's a big business those days, and sadly enough, many are willing to pay and become a student of anyone, as long he looks Asian, and can do "few moves".

Paul Wollos

Ken Allgeier
26th December 2000, 05:18
Glenn Premru started his training in Pittsburg,Pa from a Larry Williams at a local YMCA. While in the Marine Corp ,
Premru was a student of Sam Pearson ( Shorin Ryu)who was a student of Ezio Shimabukro.I belive that Glen Premru was never in Okinawa.In 1972, Premru had a tournament in Pittsburg, inwhich Hohan Soken & Fusi Kisi were guests of honor.How I understand the situation to be,Premru was never realy a student of Hohan Soken, but joined his organization.







ken allgeier

Hank Irwin
26th December 2000, 05:28
Originally posted by Ken Allgeier


Glenn Premru started his training in Pittsburg,Pa from a Larry Williams at a local YMCA. While in the Marine Corp ,
Premru was a student of Sam Pearson ( Shorin Ryu)who was a student of Ezio Shimabukro.I belive that Glen Premru was never in Okinawa.In 1972, Premru had a tournament in Pittsburg, inwhich Hohan Soken & Fusi Kisi were guests of honor.How I understand the situation to be,Premru was never realy a student of Hohan Soken, but joined his organization.







ken allgeier I believe I have that video. O'Sensei Soken and Sensei Kise looked real good. Not bad for an old man. Not to get off the cuff, but, I think this man might have had an affiliation with Mr. Premru at some point,Kyoshi Michael Broadman. Has anyone ever heard of him or had the terrific/horror/honor of training with him? He was a demon sent to earth to test the skills of all Warriors!!!

waza22
26th December 2000, 06:32
Good evening Gentlemen,

Mr. Irwin, sorry about the pecan pie problem, mine was of the pumpkin and choclate cake variety. Whew what a feast.

I know Kise's system all too well. Mr. Hunnicutt trained with him for awhile in the sixties, one of my other instructors learned his ciriculum and was a member of his Org. for a short period. I also have a student of mine who was under Kise for 11 years, I know the katas, I know the methods (all to my benefit). On the Toma side of it, which Toma? One is with Motobu-Ryu and I believe the spelling of his name is Shian, at least that is what is on my certificate. The other Toma is Shorin-Ryu and I cannot recall his first name. On the other subject, We had a very simular type event here in the Washington area last year but it was more of a clinic than a tournament. Some of the people were there, Nakazato, Yagi etc... Maybe it is a yearly thing just held in different places each year. Anyway I am happy to hear that you found an instructor who is on the right track. And lay off the left overs,lol.

Mr. Allgeier, You are correct. I do not believe Premru was a direct student of Soken. His rank was recognized by Soken but, I believe it was more of a validation type thing.

Good night gentlemen,

Regards,
William D. Gray

Hank Irwin
26th December 2000, 13:26
It was Shian Toma. Last year the clinic was in 5-6 places across the US. This year it's the whole banana, right here. I will find out a little more about it within the next couple of days. William, were you a student of Shian Toma? I'm a little brain dead right now, I think. Too much sugar & caffeine from yesterday. I'll get back to you guys in a bit.

kusanku
26th December 2000, 21:45
Well, now, everyone is getting a little TOO specaialized for me.

Anyway, that is the extent of my White crane knowledge. Oh, Dr. Yang says he practices Ancestral crane, which id the original Southern White crane Style, and his lineage goes back to Fujian Province to prove it, and his teacher looked real enough in the pictures I saw.

So wish everyone would stop trying to prove everyone else a fraud.:-)

Pretty soon, I shall be the only legitimate martial artist on here , if we keep this up.

>I and I alone know the secret crane >handshake-waitaminnit, I'm not even a >crane practitioner.

>But FORA PRICE, mind you, I will >teach you, your brother and your >sister's Uncle, the ninety leven >Hakutsuru katas that no one ever saw >before. And there's a good reason >that no one ever saw them, too.:D

>A darn good reason, I just made 'em >up!

>_Wing Flap, White Crane Master of the >Southern Shalian Tra

'Hey- go away for coffee, and some overweight American guy steals my keyboard. Get_away_ from_ my_ gear, now!Hiyoss!(various Okinawan techniques being implemented by Kusanku- three second elapse by Lorus preciision chronometer and the sound of someone running or limping away is heard-it is not safe to mess with anyone named Kusanku:-)

Sorry bout that, fellows,one of those would be Crane guys swiped my keyboard.He didn't pose much of a problem fortunately, and I swiped it back with little difficulty. We now return you to ur regulary scheduled program, and Happy Holidays for all, and William and Hank, you want to watch that pie, and if not,one word-TUMS.

Regards to all and to all, a good night-
Kusanku

Hank Irwin
26th December 2000, 22:32
Oh man! You've got me hurting!! Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

Hank Irwin
26th December 2000, 22:43
So much crane stuff is just too much to absorb, if you ask me. I imagine O'Sensei Soken "Matsumurized" a lot of what he taught. I think the first "Crane" kata he taught was to actually test the student, Ryu Sho Ken. It is actually a quite difficult kata to do, properly. I have seen it done 4 different ways, none of which looks quite the way I was taught. The techniques I learned in Shorin could never be replaced with another system(imo)but, there is so much within "our" system. I don't think any one person could ever learn it all. I also think too much time is actually wasted in some pursuits of the illusive Crane Fist. Training is what is important! I think Wansu & I will play for awhile tonight.

Ron Goninan
27th December 2000, 00:28
Guys,

Lets bring the discussion back onto topic! Victor: I am sorry. my intention was not to discredit Soken Hohan just to share some information that shows him in a more human rather than "God-like" light. If I have caused anyone any offence, I offer my sincere apology.

Moving on, all this discussion about wh taught who and who was graded by who is interesting but not in-line with the original intent of this discussion.

Let's discuss the actual footage of Soken Sensei demonstrating the series of Hakutsuruken techniques. How close is this footage to the "real deal". I say this because I have witnessed numerous demonstrations by others of what they all calim is the rel thing despite the obvious fact that it all too often it looks nothing at all like that shown by Soken Sensei on the footage in mention. When asked why this is, these people way lyrical about how it was a "secret" and theirs is the "one, true version."

My feeling is that demonstrated by Soken Sensei is the definate guide to follow. What do others think?

Regards,

Ron Goninan

kusanku
27th December 2000, 04:12
Hank Irwin says:'hahahahaha!Man you've got me hurting!'

Hee! That was my intention. hank, you're a good man, got a sense of humor, like unto mine own, and that ain't bad says me.

William , he's a right guy too, says me.

Glad to make you laugh.

But Heck Fire, someone has to stop this stuff happening in here, before it is too late.Or we'll be up to our necks in White Crane Hakutsuruken Okinawan style masters who , after three weeks training at a seminar in Naha, are now the All knowing and all seeing Masters o' destruction 'n' devastation.

'N' you know what, guys?

Last guy that tried to Kung Fu me ate the Side Kick to the ribs and Back Fist to the jaw and fell down before we ever got to the Main course of the reverse punch and front kick.:D

What do you think about that? No death challenges please, there's a seven year waiting list, Kusanku has many enemies and they finally started dueling amongst themselves, with predictable results.I am by the way quite expert at kyusho apps and tuite type stuff, and I can tell you its really hard to get in and use it when someone is whaling on you with good ole basics.

Ho hum.:-)

But you guys, Okinawan stylists all and stout fellows, 'n' no doubt getting stouter fast eating all the pie and not saving none for me,know all tis already, and I ask you only to remember ole Kusanku as you glut yourselves on that feast you're eating, as he practices on the barren plains of Indiana, in the night, alone.:-)

And goes in search of a Hamburger loaded, with Banana creme pie for dessert, traditional Hoosier Holiday fare.MMMM.

Kusanku

Hank Irwin
27th December 2000, 04:38
You pretty ok too John Sensei! I have really been enjoying all our discussions. I think this is maybe in a small way, what O'Sensei Soken and many others would have hoped would happen after they were gone. Trying to put the pieces together, together. You know the basics are always a good point of interest, too. You wouldn't believe the Yudansha I have met that don't know at least 1 bunkai for every Kamae in their 1st kata, but yet they know 15 kata! What's a good starting point for us with empty hand kata? Pinan Shodan/Nedan? Naihanchi Shodan/Nedan? Wansu? Sanchin?(Ueichi/Goju) Somebody help me pick one, ok?

Hank Irwin
27th December 2000, 04:49
The Matsumura Hakutsuru film released(done by Lindseysan) by Ron Lindsey is not/ does not look like the kata O'Sensei Soken is doing, despite Sensei Lindsey saying it IS the same kata! All one has to do is look at both video. I am not trying to discredit Sensei Lindsey in any way. But seeing is believing most times. With us usually feeling is believing though! I have trained under Sensei Lindsey only at seminars, and it is a definite learning experience!
I have not seen ANYONE to this day that does a kata even slightly resembling the one performed by O'Sensei Soken in this video. Might be, somewhere, I don't know of it.

kusanku
27th December 2000, 06:20
Hank syays:'You would not believe the yudansha I have met..'

Oh, yes, I would!:D

' who don't know even one bunkai for each kamae in their first kata, and yet they know fifteen kata.'

If they study with my way, they must know a minimum of three bunkai oyo ad preferably five main waza, for each kamae of each kata.

'Which one do you want to start with?'

You name it and we'll frame it.:-)

I know sixty four katas counting stylistic variants and can do what I said with each one.Also, all my bunkai oyo actually will work.Unlike many I have seen.

Mine involve set up and intercept and distraction moves to get in close and then, you execute the waza.It takes skill to get in there, too, as I said, or you wind up eating the basic technique.If they are really good, like a Boxer, you must then use-Deception.:-)That's if you have to close a gap, usually in real self defense you don't, they're right on top of you and one move ends it one way or another.

One should practice many types of waza, but never confuse reality with theory, unless your theory comes from reality, as mine does for self defense.Having proven for years that I could do it wrong,through years of practice in making mistakes galore, I then established how to do it right.:-)

You must try to off balance with the first actual contact, or your advantage is non-existent.

Experts will control with the first contact as you know.Attack and the fight is over.

But- I usually in Okinawan Kempo use the naihanchi One- three, Wanshu, ananku, seisan, Pinan one-five, and Kusanku kata, as well as Ueseishi dai, .

In Shorin ryu, I use the eighteen kata of Matsubayahi ryu, more or less as they are taught in most schools, but my apps from them may not be what most do.Or they may, I really don't now there.I do apps based on principles from a lot of arts, though.

The Shotokan forms I also use, at least around twenty or so of them.

My apps and principles of interpretation are to be found at the Baylor University texas Karate Club website, or at http://www.shoto-ryu.com , at the SRSI Journal, or at the AMAKS Kata Analysis wesite reachable at http://www.amaks.com , usually under the Genjumin name, that's me.

The apps I do are of general use, and some others are style specific.

Also my "evil older twin" wrote a series of articles under the name the Vengel chronicles available in the text section of ALMA, now the Cyber Kwoon, by request of its owner.

Oh, it do get around.

Anyway, that's about it. As for what kata to use as a beginning form, of course I favor the naihanchi, but am not unused to others in this role, seisan, wanshu, ananku, Fukyugata one and two , sanchin, or pinan/heian, all get the job done.

Also I do Tai Chi , but am just a rookie there, and started out in jujitsu, no rank, and judo, sankyu.

These did help with apps, as do Shaolin Chin Na, Dr. Yang's style , and Yoshinkan Aikido, and its predeccessor.In all of which I dabble.
Because I can.

But mainly, the karate kata themselves, the basic elements of them, and good old Judo, have been my mainstays.

I find a good Judo throw/holddown combination to be almighty discouraging to would be warriors.

Course I weigh in at two seventy, true fact, and that might also be a mite on the discouraging side.You see, I, too, like my pie.A Lot.:D

There is a category of Judo throw known as the Makikomi, that I find highly effective in quelling many disturbances, and greatly amusing as well.:-)

And there is an Aiki technique called sokumen irimi nage that I swear comes right from Naihanchi One.

But I am above all a peaceful man, not a violent one, and ask nothing more to live by the side of the road in harmony with all who dwell on earth.

I too, believe we are doing well in these discussions.

Want to hear my take on the common underlying principles of the martial arts?

1.Balance

2. Footwork

3. tai sabaki or body turning.

4. Angular evasion.

5. Interception.

6. Distraction

7. Application of technique

8. Follow through.

9. Finishing move, or hold.Meaning finishing the conflict or defense.

The rest is why we love diversity.:-)

Regards,
Kusanku.

[Edited by kusanku on 12-27-2000 at 01:02 AM]

Hank Irwin
27th December 2000, 14:07
John Sensei, do we think a lot a like, Oh yeah! Those were some excellant points. Will take a look at the sites you mentioned also. Stealing balance. Oh so important. I also concur, is the first setup to taking your opponent out, especially by deception. That is the first thing I try to do. Manipulation(imo) is almost impossible to achieve without offsetting your opponents balance. Triangulating Saibaki is our vehicle combined with linear/circular strikes. There are a lot of Aikijutsu waza I have seen and worked with that could, I said could, and do fit right nicely in many of our kata, hmm..... this is extremely interesting to say the least. In Wansu, there are 6 throws I know of. You could incorporate many throws in just about any bunkai you execute, but that is how bunkai is supposed to be. Techniques from one kata to the next(especially if they are from the same system) should flow into each other when combing. Pinan waza & Naihanchi waza, Wansu waza & Naihanchi waza etc. I feel the same way as my teacher and Sensei Oyata do in the matter of kata. All kata are a mixture of all the different techniques from each individual kata. I (imo, and these are just op's)think that is why you will find so many variations for one kamae. Kinda reminds me of their language a little. "One thing means this, but it also means this, if you add that to it." In means of bunkai, this is quite "foxey" if you ask me. I think this is where the culture steps in for most of us. Not knowing at least a little of the culture involved limits you to knowing how the "thinking" process evolved to begin with. I gotta go back to the workbench, fella's. I'll talk to ya later. You guy's have a good day!

waza22
27th December 2000, 18:49
Gentlemen,


I am enjoying this conversation. I think the comment that was about this is perhaps what Soken may have wanted is very true.

I am glad the subject of Ron Lindsey has gone without comment. I do not care for this man very much. I will say that any dealings with him should be followed very closly and his instruction is rather basic in the application department, but he is a good practioner from what I have heard. I have been a thorn in his side for quite some time. Nuff said.

A far as the 8mm film that abounds. Soken was not a spring chicken when this film was made. Most of the katas were incomplete and I think it was more of a demo tape not something to be copied.

Kusabku, you really need to work on referring to yourself in third person,I am really starting to believe in this alter-ego that you keep talking about :). You scare me.
I agree whole heartedly with your breakdown of the principles. I believe that every movement should debalance your opponent in some manner wether it be physically or mentally. Deception is a useful tool if it is not over used, sometimes it is better to just to be of greater skill than trying to cheat your opponents skill level.

I to have studided jujutsu and Aikido along with Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu. The sword arts really helped me a lot with carving away wasted movement and making my foot work more realistic. The point about application of kata is pretty much in line with my views and is good.

Good day Gentlemen,
Regards,
William D. Gray

kusanku
27th December 2000, 19:22
Hank, William, good ideaas, good stuff.

I understand sword is helpful, never got to do this one.

As for my alter ego scaring you William, sometimes he really bugs me, too.:-) Naw, he is a useful tool to tell stories, like a Hand Puppet of an ancient Kempo master.Or te Wizard of Oz- pay no attention to the Shorin ryu guy behind the Curtain, he is not important.

Yes applications of kata can be at several levels, striking and kicking shotgun( broad spectrum power shots, not necessarily damaging but knock away or down, basic level);throwing/pushing/pulling/takedown ( Tai Chi type stuff);Holding and locking, twisting and manipulating;point stuff; and aiki or weapons level(simultaneous evasion and countermove).

Fully agree with both of you. Lindsey I don't know at all, know people who trained with heim, heard he was a good practitioner, nothing else do I know there either.

Premru I never met, heard he did one heck of a demo long time ago.

Oyata was one of my teacher's teachers, Odo was another, and Matsbayashi lineage comes from Nagamine and Ueshiro through James Wax, Frank Grant and then thru Richard Burch..

Regards, Kusanku ( is kind of intimidating, isn't t? I mean, whowould mess with Kusanku?:-)

Karate sakugawa wouldn't , not motre than once.:D

Doug Daulton
28th December 2000, 08:17
Originally posted by Jim Kass ...
I also believe the Naihanchi kata contain ALL the techniques of Shorin Ryu, which will slowly be exposed, if a person is receiving competent instruction.

Mr. Kass,

I agree with you 100%.

Doug Daulton
28th December 2000, 08:38
Happy holidays everyone!

A few housekeeping points ...

1. As several folks have mentioned, let's avoid personal attacks on the living or the dead. Constructive criticism is welcome by most, just be careful with the blade as it can cut both ways.

2. Avoid long posts. As a general rule, try not to write a book with your posts as it makes the thread difficult to read. Long posts generally occur one of two ways ... via full quotes or extended tangents.

When quoting, please edit the quote to include only relevant text. If you agree with an entire post, simply say that. As for tangents, feel free to start an entirely new thread which follows that line of thought and refer to it in the replies in this or other threads.

Neither of these issues are big problems, but I thought I'd mention them.

Thanks for your cooperation,