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Ignacio R. Moreira
23rd December 2000, 17:00
Do you use color belts for kyu level in your school?
For example, in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu, the order is the following:

9th kyu= white belt
8th kyu= yellow belt
7th kyu= green belt with 3 black tips
6th kyu= green belt with 2 black tips
5th kyu= green belt with 1 black tip
4th kyu= purple belt
3rd kyu= brown belt with 3 black tips
2nd kyu= brown belt with 2 black tips
1st kyu= brown belt with 1 black tip

Black Belt level

Shodan ho= BB with one white stripe in the middle

Shodan= BB with one red tip

Nidan= BB with 2 red tips

Sandan= BB with 3 red tips

Yodan= BB with one red strtipe in th middle or if an instructor, Renshi Belt with white stripe up

Godan= BB with 2 red stripes in the middle or if instructor, Renshi Belt with red stripe up.

Rokkudan= Red and Black in blocks.

Schichidan= Red and White in blocks.

Hachidan= Red with a black stripe in the middle.


kudan= Red with the incription on the borders

Judan= Red with inscription on the borders.


How do they differ from your system?


Any thoughts?
:smokin:
:nin:
:smokin:

Nick
23rd December 2000, 20:26
gokyu, blue yon and sankyu, purple, ni and ikkyo are brown... 1 thru 10 dan are black.

Simple nuff :).

Nick

Rolling Elbow
23rd December 2000, 20:38
Your rank system kind of sucks...

I bet you charge people large amoutns of ca$h each time they test don't you?! Come on, lose the belts..students that need to know where they are in terms of their skills without knowing more or less themselves are just one step up from having a McDojo mindset.

Sorry, it is Christmas and i am a grinch:)

Jason Chambers
23rd December 2000, 21:47
You really are a disrespectfully type Mr. Elbow. It isn't about the money all of the time. Some people need things to look forward to such as a change in belt color when they advance.

I know only what others have told me of Nindo Ryu so I cannot comment on thier practices just as I am sure you cannot either if you have never been actively involved with the group. Don't simply assume that Nindo is a "Kyu Factory" until you have all you facts in order...

:moon: BTW, Grynch wasn't the word I had in mind. :moon:

FLAME ON! :redhot:

Jason Chambers
:nin:

[Edited by Kokujin on 12-24-2000 at 01:34 AM]

Rolling Elbow
23rd December 2000, 22:07
Why they decided to get creative even beyond the simple yellow-orange-green-blue-brown-black is beyond me. they should have gone that way if any way at all. I still don't see the need for belts...shoadan should be your first indication that you have develloped a good foundation and can now delve deeper into your art.

And i disagree..while belts may give people something to strive for, they also give people a false sense of security, illusions of grandeur, come with expectations from others and catagorize an individual into an area where he is only allowed to learn what that belt requires him to learn.

I will remain disrespectful then..people should want to learn self defense for themselves..if survival is what you are after, you should not need that many belts to convince you that you are learning valuable skills along the way. It is ludicrous.

You'll note i never said the Nindo Ryu was a paper Mill, please get your facts right. All I said was that they are indirectly creating a McDojo mind set among students..it had nothing to do with what is taught. Although, the weight of the head of their system leaves me wondering where "chi" belly ends and half a pound of ribs begin.

[Edited by Rolling Elbow on 12-23-2000 at 04:11 PM]

Jason Chambers
23rd December 2000, 23:18
Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
I bet you charge people large amoutns of ca$h each time they test don't you?!

I believe this statment alone eludes to that implication.

FLAME ON! :redhot:

Jason Chambers

[Edited by Kokujin on 12-24-2000 at 01:34 AM]

Rolling Elbow
24th December 2000, 16:14
I am happy enough putting out my own flames..arguing this will get us nowhere. Why there are soo many damn organizations making up their own ranking system is beyond me..what was wrong with what was taught to all of you in the first place?

Jason Chambers
24th December 2000, 19:06
Mike,

What is wrong with having multiple colored belts as a measure of progression?

I agree with your point that often times it is a GROSS misrepresentation of "skill", but that falls on the instructor/school. It should not discredit the ranking system.

This is what I do. My adults progress through the standard three belts (green, brown & black) while my children progress through 9 colored belts. I don't see a problem with "rewarding" children with a different color as they progress... YES, they do have to pass thier exam and know the material.

I was involved with Tae Kwon Do when it switched from 9 colored belts to 18. I remember thinking "Damn, I'll never make black belt if they keep this up..." I agree this can be done in excess and has a negative impact on student at times.

I was also just recently involved with a group who had a similar ranking system. Sixteen kyu levels... Part of the reason that I left that group was that the students, no matter what thier proficiency level was, would be automatically promoted to the next belt even if they were lacking on thier exam. This was always a major disagreement between myself and the other instructors.

On the same topic, the "creating" of 5 additional Dan ranks is for what again?

I do think that once you make black belt, you should WEAR a blackbelt... the candycane and checkerboard belts are becoming more and more meaningless due to thier being used more frequently by anyone who wants to be unique... Again, I have been guilty of that as being a part of another group.

So I agree with you on some points but not all. Hey how 'bout dat!



[Edited by Kokujin on 12-24-2000 at 01:09 PM]

Rolling Elbow
24th December 2000, 20:01
For adults I don't think it is really needed..but that is my opinion. I also had no idea that TKD was up to 18 ranks before black!!!! incredible, it just goes on. I guess everyone is free tot teach as they wish. If i ever teach, I will not award ranks like that. If people want to learn they'll stick around.., if not, they can go. Then again , this is the diff between a commercial dojo and having to pay dues, and training out of your living room :)

Merry X-mas.

glad2bhere
24th December 2000, 21:41
I was reading peoples contributions and recalled a story I heard regarding the development of ceremonials in Hiniyana Buddhism. Apparently a lay monk was asking his abbot about the need for ceremonials at all, given the simplicity of the traditional Buddhist belief system. Given that there is no intercessionary God, and no real belief in spirits and what not, the question was why there should be any need for ceremonials and rituals at all. The abbots response was that it is not the Buddhist faith but rather the tenuous nature of peoples' faith that make such displays necessary.

Perhaps there is some truth to the fact that organizations make $$$ from mulitple testing and certification. However, I suspect that the average MA practitioner simply is not able to train in such a way that they are able to work only for thweir own personal growth and must have symbols and ceremonies to affirm their actions. It does not make they bad or evil. I, personally lost interest in such things a while ago, and if others still need it, thats okay too. In my experience, though, people are going to commit to training in a MA independent of such things. They will also fail to commit to training independent of such things. I suspect this is probably more prevalent here in the States than most other places, but then we Americans seem to be much more invested in trappings and symbols than the realities they represent. Witness the institution of marriage.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Ignacio R. Moreira
25th December 2000, 17:05
Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
Your rank system kind of sucks...


Thank you for your sincerity:smilejapa



I bet you charge people large amoutns of ca$h each time they test don't you?!

Well, we charge as every school does. How much? well fair enough, although not like others schools I know. If you would like more info on this subject, join one of our dojos or simply e-mail me private since this is not the subject of the thread.




Sorry, it is Christmas and i am a grinch

Sorry, sometimes they call me:santa:

:laugh:

Ignacio R. Moreira
25th December 2000, 17:07
Originally posted by Kokujin
Mike,

What is wrong with having multiple colored belts as a measure of progression?

I agree with your point that often times it is a GROSS misrepresentation of "skill", but that falls on the instructor/school. It should not discredit the ranking system.

This is what I do. My adults progress through the standard three belts (green, brown & black) while my children progress through 9 colored belts. I don't see a problem with "rewarding" children with a different color as they progress... YES, they do have to pass thier exam and know the material.

I was involved with Tae Kwon Do when it switched from 9 colored belts to 18. I remember thinking "Damn, I'll never make black belt if they keep this up..." I agree this can be done in excess and has a negative impact on student at times.

I was also just recently involved with a group who had a similar ranking system. Sixteen kyu levels... Part of the reason that I left that group was that the students, no matter what thier proficiency level was, would be automatically promoted to the next belt even if they were lacking on thier exam. This was always a major disagreement between myself and the other instructors.

On the same topic, the "creating" of 5 additional Dan ranks is for what again?

I do think that once you make black belt, you should WEAR a blackbelt... the candycane and checkerboard belts are becoming more and more meaningless due to thier being used more frequently by anyone who wants to be unique... Again, I have been guilty of that as being a part of another group.

So I agree with you on some points but not all. Hey how 'bout dat!



Jason:smilejapa
Well said:smilejapa
:santa:

kennin
26th December 2000, 09:19
Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
Why they decided to get creative even beyond the simple yellow-orange-green-blue-brown-black is beyond me. they should have gone that way if any way at all. I still don't see the need for belts...shoadan should be your first indication that you have develloped a good foundation and can now delve deeper into your art.

And i disagree..while belts may give people something to strive for, they also give people a false sense of security, illusions of grandeur, come with expectations from others and catagorize an individual into an area where he is only allowed to learn what that belt requires him to learn.

I will remain disrespectful then..[Edited by Rolling Elbow on 12-23-2000 at 04:11 PM]

Michael, this it REALLY not the way martial artists should talk. MA's are all about peace and understanding. It is a fair decision to have lots of colors. If you don't agree, fine, but that's no reason to be that disrespectful.
If we in our own Bujinkan dôjô decide to give a yellow/blue/green striped belt to the 12th kyû, then that's our own choice. You can always make polite and respectful comments about it, that you doubt the benefits of these, but being that disrespectful isn't right at all... I doubt your teacher wil second your way of express your opinion.
Definitely he'll not agree with you stating that you remain disrespectful...

Ken Allgeier
27th December 2000, 05:02
If I were made, god emperor of the universe,dictator for life-benevolence despot,I would reform the belt-ranking system , and only use three color belts. The WHITE,BROWN & BLACK belts only.No more dan ranks and return to the , Renshi,Kyoshi,Hanshi for teaching licenses and no more of the silly master and grandmaster stuff.


Renshi -must be at least 35 yrs old,

Kyoshi- minimum age 45

Hanshi- minimum age 60

The word Sensei-only for vary senior Budoka's

Shihan only to be used for menjos or in offical documents.














ken allgeier

kennin
27th December 2000, 08:41
In the Bujinkan it is generally done like this:

Mukyuu, no mon: belt: white belt
Kukyuu, red mon with white kanji, no stars, men: green belt, women: red belt
Hakkyuu, red mon with white kanji, 1 silver star, men: green belt, women: red belt
Nanakyuu, red mon with white kanji, 2 silver stars, men: green belt, women: red belt
Rokkyuu, red mon with white kanji, 3 silver stars, men: green belt, women: red belt
Gokyuu, red mon with white kanji, 4 silver stars, men: green belt, women: red belt
Yonkyuu, red mon with white kanji, 1 golden star, men: green belt, women: red belt (some doujou: belt: brown)
Sankyuu, red mon with white kanji, 2 golden stars, men: green belt, women: red belt (some doujou: belt: brown)
Nikyuu, red mon with white kanji, 3 golden stars, men: green belt, women: red belt (some doujou: belt: brown)
Ikkyuu, red mon with white kanji, 4 golden stars, men: green belt, women: red belt (some doujou: belt: brown)
Shodan: red mon with black kanji, no stars, belt: black
Nidan: red mon with black kanji, 1 silver star, belt: black
Sandan: red mon with black kanji, 2 silver stars, belt: black
Yondan: red mon with black kanji, 3 silver stars, belt: black

Godan - kudan: red kanji with white bordered black kanji, don't know about the stars, have to look it up again, belt: black.
Juudan - Juugodan: orange mon with green kanji, black belt, still don't know about the stars...

MarkF
27th December 2000, 11:23
Well, here we have it, jugodan, 15-dan. This is a scary situation since there are all ready junidan in some systems. No, not the representation of junidan, but people graded as such.

Shut up and train? OK, I will if you will.

Mark

Jeff Cook
27th December 2000, 13:17
Much ado about nothing.....

....or maybe much "doo-doo" about nothing.

I'm training, Mark. Great advice!

Question for those preoccupied with belt colors: what color belt is more effective for (a) holding your gi top closed, and (b) strangling somebody with?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Dragonweb
27th December 2000, 19:11
Black and Blue?

Hehehe :D

Rolling Elbow
27th December 2000, 19:57
What you are saying is that if i had not added in the part about "remaining disrespectful" I would have just been voicing my opinion?!! I only threw that in because if they felt my comments were "disrespectful", then by me not backing down from my comments meant that to them I would remain "disrespectful"..hence I stated that I would remain "disresepctful" :)(and not willing to back down)

I don't think my teacher is too worried about what all of us weekend warriors, dynamic internet masters, or historians have to say here on the net. We are all aloud to have our own opinions..as long as we study our arts diligently and do not use them to harm others,opinions are like personalitites- they differ. He has his, and I have mine. The fact that I respect him and am committed to my studies in the Bujinkan, is more than enough common ground for a friendship and a teacher-student rapport. I never signed my mind over to the Bujinkan or any other organization. Granted it is too easy for all of us to hide behind keyboards and spew our mouths off here on the net...this is still an open forum and the notion that people would NOT inflate their egos or embellish stories on here is also a tad unrealistic...it is too easy to get carried away, of that we are all guilty.

My instructor just takes what i say with a grain of salt, probably knowing that I like many, will not come to see the bennefits in certain things until I have seen something that will change my mind...and as rational human beings, I think this is an important quality.

I do not like a progressive belt system. What is necessary if anything, are Stand points:

White-Green-Black or
White-Brown-Black or
White-Black

These are boring but they are an indication enough. 2 or 3 belts is all that is needed to mark achievement, not all the colours of the rainbow or stripes and checkers in between.

P.S- How about:

white
green- no patches or stars along the way
black- no kanji or writing, just the plain colour...

It is good enough for me.

[Edited by Rolling Elbow on 12-27-2000 at 02:02 PM]

MarkF
28th December 2000, 11:33
Hi, Jeff C.,
That is a subject all too often ignored, the other, more traditional use of material for the purpose of fighting, not fighting over color.

One time, on the 199 discussion on this same subject, ago, a new member posted this, after reading all those posts, which were pretty much the same as in this one: "I can't believe you people are even discussing this nonsense! In my dojo, we wear keikogi and white belts, just as the ancient samurai wore!"

No, that isn't paraphrased, either, because I fell out of my chair when I read that (No ukemi, just slid right off).

This, I fear, is another one. C'mon, guys! I can't stay upright with this "off-color" comedy.:D:laugh::wave::laugh::toot

Hehehe.

Mark

Scott
3rd January 2001, 09:01
Any others are just plain meaningless.

Level 1: Bare foot
Level 2: Zori
Level 3: Sneakers
Level 4: Wing tips
Level 5: Tap shoes
Level 6: Hiking boots
Level 7: Combat boots
Level 8: Brown pumps with silk stockings
level 9: Black Spiked heels with fish nets
Level 10: Back to bare foot, but with red toenail polish

Joseph Svinth
3rd January 2001, 11:12
Jumpin' Joe Parelli, said the *Seattle Post-Intelligencer* in September 1935, "is probably the only wrestler in captivity who paints his toenails. The Parelli toenails are tinted a brilliant red and they’ll be on exhibition for all to admire."

:)

glad2bhere
3rd January 2001, 13:36
I was rereading the many contributions regarding various ranking systems and couldn't help but notice that there is an interesting division not only between people who favor various indicators of rank progression (or not) but also between people who need to express their particular rank to the world (or not). One group of people that I have not heard from are those teachers who avoid ranking systems, or testing systems and their rationale for it.

When I was starting out in Hapkido, lo, these many years ago, my first instructor would periodically bestow rank, essentially based on how much time a person had been with the school. While it was pleasant to walk into school one day and be awarded a belt rank out of the blue in front of the class, I noticed that without testing and a progressive curriculum the corpus of techniques I was learning was actually very small. I am not talking about applications, now, because a single technique such as an elbow lock can be used in a wide variety of situations. What I am talking about is the essential catalogue of unique techniques and various categories of supportive theory for those techniques. Though I have long since transcended those days by dilligently researching my art, I have often wondered how much farther I would have been had I been able to progress through an organized hierarchy of ranks, each with its own level of sophistication both in technique and in theory.

Put in simpler terms, perhaps the ranking system can be as much a help to instructors who use it properly in shaping their curriculum as it can be a "crutch" (or a sop) to keep participants interest until they can become self-motivating.

Best Wishes,

Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Daniel Latham
4th January 2001, 06:59
In Shorinji Kempo we have white belt, then sankyu, nikyu, and ikkyu; which are brown. Shodan and up are black. To differentiate between black belts, shodan and nidan have black breast patches. Sandan and up have red patches. Dojo masters have gold patches.

Shorinji Kempo exams consist of physical techniques, written exams, and "randori," or sparring. I also make sure to tell my students that 50% of their grade is based on their behavior and decorum.

Daniel Latham
Medford, Oregon

Margaret Lo
4th January 2001, 17:25
Lest we forget, belt colors can be very practical for teachers. At a glance, you can tell what kata is the primary kata for a group of students. In shotokan karate, white=heian shodan, yellow=heian nidan and on up.

For example: when it is time for kata training, you say all green belts over here, brown belts there etc... as opposed to trying to name every person for a particular kata. Try it at the end of a tiring class with a big group of students!!

Try it too if you are teaching a seminar to a gym full of students whose names you don't know. You will need the belt colors to teach efficiently.

In JKA dojos also, black belts begin to have names in kanji embroidered on belts and jackets so teachers can yell at you by name or call you up to ridicule your pathetic technique. :D And of course to discuss your problems amongst themselves while laughing uproariously.

Patches and other nonutilitarian decorations are permited in some organizations but discouraged by others as a matter of the preference of the teacher. Really, belt colors are no big deal.

M

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 01-04-2001 at 11:47 AM]

BC
4th January 2001, 18:56
Originally posted by Margaret Lo
Lest we forget, belt colors can be very practical for teachers. At a glance, you can tell what kata is the primary kata for a group of students. In shotokan karate, white=heian shodan, yellow=heian nidan and on up.

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 01-04-2001 at 11:47 AM]

I agree Margaret. In our aikido dojo, our late Japanese head instructor instituted a colored belt policy (white/yellow/blue/brown/black) after he started the dojo the states, just to help him distinguish between the ability/kyu levels of the various gaijin students. Note that we only wore these colored belts while attending class in our dojo, and not during any seminars, due to the Aikikai Hombu Dojo's standard of only a white and black belt system. A little while after our head instructor's passing, our dojo elected to go back to just a white and black belt system, in accordance with Hombu, because the original reason and purpose for the colored belts no longer existed. Interestingly, the only members of the dojo who initially resisted or protested were some of our senior students/instructors, not anyone in the kyu ranks. For me, having practiced in multi-colored, no-colored, and two-colored systems, I prefer the white and black belt system. I know who my sempai, dohai and kohai are without needing colored belts to tell me, and that's good enough for me. IMHO.

Enfield
4th January 2001, 22:40
Originally posted by Margaret Lo
Lest we forget, belt colors can be very practical for teachers. At a glance, you can tell what kata is the primary kata for a group of students. ...

For example: when it is time for kata training, you say all green belts over here, brown belts there etc... as opposed to trying to name every person for a particular kata. Try it at the end of a tiring class with a big group of students!!

Try it too if you are teaching a seminar to a gym full of students whose names you don't know. You will need the belt colors to teach efficiently.

I've got nothing against colored belts, though I've never practiced in a dojo where they worn (just because they wern't practical. The aikido school I studied at everyone wore hakama after becoming rokyu, and in kendo there'd be *no* way to see them most of the time. In fact most people don't wear obi of any kind.)

That being said, you can do all the things Margaret wrote (except instantly knowing someone's rank) just by using the ranks themselves instead of the associated belt color: "Yonkyu and under over here, sankyu to ikkyu over here, yudansha over there." I suppose if I were in a system where rank was indicated by uniform, it could be handy, but not having such indications certainly isn't much of a handicap, at least as far as I can see.

Margaret Lo
5th January 2001, 16:19
Kent - This we know, aikido students are obviously more intelligent than karateka. :)

During class, no one ever remembers their kyu rank (myself included), we start at 8 and work down to 1 and that's a lot of ranks. If I started arranging classes by rank, minutes would pass as people wonder: am I 7th kyu or 6th? duh!! :laugh:

Students can, however, remember which kata they are to practice, so I can organized them by kata. However, that fails for sparring. Ultimately if students are really dazed they can look down around their waists at their belts.

M

darkwind
5th January 2001, 19:21
All in all several belt colors are traditional while others are determined by the sensei of each seperate dojo of an art. Mine own sensei uses a very simplified three belt color that I think is rampant throughout Bujinkan. White, green, black. You start getting different characters on your black as you become more advanced. Amazingly enough though I've heard a story that one day a guy asked the grandmaster(a 5th dan) when was he going to be promoted and the the grandmaster told him whenever he wanted to be, pick a day and a rank and let him know.

I personally wish I still had my white belt. I'd wear it proudly after attaining 10th dan.

If I had to teach you'd where white until you were ready for black.

Darwin Newton
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
Zenka Dojo ATL GA USA

Enfield
5th January 2001, 23:08
Originally posted by Margaret Lo
Kent - This we know, aikido students are obviously more intelligent than karateka. :)

Nah, it's just that being upside down so much keeps extra blood near the brain. ;)


During class, no one ever remembers their kyu rank (myself included), we start at 8 and work down to 1 and that's a lot of ranks. If I started arranging classes by rank, minutes would pass as people wonder: am I 7th kyu or 6th? duh!! :laugh:

My guess is that this is because they're used to thinking of themselves as "yellow belts" rather than "nanakyu," and that if they didn't have the colored belt it'd be the other way around. But as I said earlier, if you've got 'em use 'em.

Steve C
23rd January 2001, 16:36
Don't belts provide a structure to training?

I think there are techniques that are simple and fundamental to your art, and some that are more complex and more rarely used.

The belt system allows you to segregate learners appropriately. Each student follows a syllabus that makes the basis of his/her training simple, easily-applicable techniques. Which I think is extremely important.

So, to take Karate as an example, you start by learning a solid stance, a selection of blocks, and a strong punch. And that lets you go a long way. After, you learn some simple kicks, which again, are useful and not confusing or difficult for learners, who don't have much dexterity.

Then, once they've been 'approved' at those techniques, they can move on, weaving in more complex techiques.

I guess too many belts would make things disjointed, and not enough makes things too confused. It's like chapters in a book - too short and you can't contain a whole idea, too long and it's hard to grasp everything that's being said.

---

Looking at it from another angle, because you keep training the simple techniques, they are buried deep in your nervous system, and they are the ones you'll use first. Which is good, because they're probably the most energy-efficient and powerful ones you have.

Enfield
23rd January 2001, 23:31
Originally posted by Steve C
Don't belts provide a structure to training?
...

As I think I pointed out earlier, this is a function of the ranking structure, not having different colored belts. You can have one without the other.

Devon Smith
23rd January 2001, 23:53
This has me wondering about where & when the color belt thing came around.

Any historians out there know where the colors first came into play? I'm not referring to the "__kyu" rank, so to speak, but the introduction of a colored belt to go with it, in case the timing was different.

Devon

glad2bhere
24th January 2001, 14:40
Dear Devon:

There is a lot of popular myth associated with the use of color as an indcator of rank. Positions around the world often have a color associated with a particular office or position. Sometimes that color is caused to used exclusively by a particular officer (as in the case of certain reds and purple in the case of the Chinese and Roman cultures.

The best inspiration for the use of various colors for kyu/guep ranking seems to come from the colors associated with the various ranks on the Confucian hierarchy of civil service. It has become a defacto standard in most Chinese, Korean and Japanese arts and has earned status as a tradition. Some styles (notably Okinawan) take a more limited approach using only three belts of white, brown and black. Still others use no actual belts at all but rely on a system of licenses and certifications to mark various levels of competence or profession.

In my classes we teach that one is only as good as their last technique. I have a black belt. Its leather and goes well with the Dockers I am wearing.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

kenshorin
3rd February 2001, 20:31
Man, this issue never dies...

Here's my $.02

Traditionally, the style I study (Matsubayashi-ryu) has three belts... white, brown and black. However, my dojo is located in America, and America, like it or not, is a different place, where people need these boosts to keep them going. We have a "10 and 10" system... 10 kyu, 10 dan. I inherited this system from my instructor. Now its easy for me, now in hindsight, to say "well maybe we don't need so many levels." However, the key is "in hindsight." Now, having been a black belt for longer than I can remember, the object for me now isn't about rank. But I wonder if I would have made it this far, had that system not been in place... My training under black belt was from the ages of 12 to 18, when I was promoted to shodan. I highly doubt I could have made it through that time in my life to my shodan without that system in place. It took 5 years for me to get to black belt, so it's not like these "dan factories."

The other thing that was mentioned is that colored belts provide structure.

"Don't belts provide a structure to training?
...
>
As I think I pointed out earlier, this is a function of the ranking structure, not having different colored belts. You can have one without the other."

This much is true. It is the function of a ranking structure. You *can* have one without the other. But, being the cynical people we are (and don't tell me we don't go a LITTLE overboard sometimes) if something else was in place besides colored belts to denote any sort of ranking structure (whether they be patches, different colored uniforms, different style hakama, and just about anything else you could imagine,) we would probably end up debating the neccessity of THAT. Whatever it would happen to be. Belts are the most common tool which people have been using to distinguish this "structure." You don't like it? Use patches or whatever you want. And then watch the people on this board come a-yelling "You use patches!? How untraditional!" :laugh:

The way I look at it is like this... my understanding of the whole concept of kyu levels is just to get people through the basics; pretty much, to weed out the bad students and keep the good, so that the real training can begin. what does it matter how many kyu there are if this is the primary goal? My main issue is what MarkF already mentioned: when people start adding extra dan levels. If by the time you reach a dan level and you are still needing these pats on the back, you are training for the wrong reasons. jugodan? the thought makes me ill. no disrespect to the system that utilizes this, but my thinking is thats a bit much. Even in our system, rokudan and up really are pretty lofty goals, and you better be setting aside a good chunk o' time in your life if you even are THINKING of such a thing.

Sorry for being longwinded, but hopefully I managed to help make some sense out of a still much debated issue, both on the board and in my own internal musings. I guess I should change the top to "My $.04".

Regards,

[Edited by kenshorin on 02-03-2001 at 02:34 PM]

glad2bhere
4th February 2001, 01:06
Dear Ken:

"...The way I look at it is like this... my understanding of the whole concept of kyu levels is just to get people through the basics; pretty much, to weed out the bad students and keep the good, so that the real training can begin. what does it matter how many kyu there are if this is the primary goal? ..."

On a good day when I am feeling centered and all together I can be very clinical and dispassionate about a subject like this. But on those days when I have read just one too many bitches, or maybe gotten one too many memos from the front office this crap does get under my skin.

I will venture to say that if we taught our arts under conditions where ones' survival or that of their family were on the line, I'd bet dollars to donuts noone would give a hairy rats' butt about titles or rank or certs. Taking it one step farther I will say that if half of our students were interested in something more than a self-gratifying activity we wouldn't need the motivating factor either. Going even farther I will chide the organizations and say that if half of the bozos that are teaching MA classes had any idea of what constitutes good instruction you wouldn't need anything to keep them organized. The whole idea of ranking in MA is an artifice created by the modern age. Maybe I just need a nap but it seems to me that the only people who make an issue about this stuff are the ones who abuse it and the ones who have thought about abusing it. My investment goes about as far as a MA wannabee using a cert or rank to suggest a level of competence to a student (commercial prospect)he can't support any other way. For me personally I don't care if the bozo has an innertube around his waist. When he gets out on the mat with me he had better be able to hold up his end of the training. People who can't walk it like they talk it get individuals hurt out on the mat. If that happens I ain't gonna be the last one.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Steve C
5th February 2001, 11:55
Originally posted by glad2bhere
Dear Ken:

"...The way I look at it is like this... my understanding of the whole concept of kyu levels is [snip] to weed out the bad students and keep the good"

[snip]

I will venture to say that if we taught our arts under conditions where ones' survival or that of their family were on the line, I'd bet dollars to donuts noone would give a hairy rats' butt about titles or rank or certs.



It could be better to offer some kind of testing for self-defence situations, something to try to tie MA progress in to a real ability to defend yourself.

How about a system whereby, at a grading, people are tested by having someone launch attacks at them and having them apply good responses/counterattacks? the early Kyu ranks would have a small number of attacks launched against them (say, head punch, body punch, body front kick.) and would have a limited number of counterattacks to try.

As the person progressed through the kyu ranks, more attacks could be tried, and so the person has to be more versatile and have more attacks and defences in his toolbox.

This might give people a better sense that they're learning a self-defense system. After your first grading, you can say 'I've got some options against some basic attacks', and as you go get up to shodan, you'd be able to say 'I can defend myself against every attack this system recognises.'

Progress through the dan ranks would be about making the attacks more aggressive and complex.

Some effects of this;


* It forces instructors to teach (and maybe to learn) effective self-defense techniques, rather than pretty manouevers that don't work in a real situation.

* Students are always testing themselves against realistic techniques - so people really have a better idea of how good they are. This lets them choose how best to deal with a situation that goes bad.

* Technique is not the only thing tested. The ability to improvise and the ability to deal with aggression are going to improve with time.

* People from different systems and styles could grade this way, to compare their effectiveness and expose the weaknesses of your system. Can an Aikido 5th Kyu student defend himself as well as a 5th Kyu Karateka? what are the weaknesses of Karate, or Aikido? How useful would it be for a Karateka to learn some Aikido?


The reason I've gone on a bit with this is that I think that it's easy to be seduced into thinking that your rank actually indicates how good you will be in a fight. Certainly, in many classes I don't think it does. How is a 8 stone, 15-year-old brown belt going to fare against a full-grown adult attacker? Not as well as an large, aggressive, adult white belt, most probably.

KenpoKev
6th February 2001, 21:22
You just described the primary method we use to test in Kenpo. At each Kyu rank there is an open hand kata plus weapon (cane) kata, some basics, and about 75% of the test is self-defense scenarios. Grabs, chokes, shoves, kicks punches, and weapon attacks. Advanced students get mugged by multiple attackers. The majority of material is based off our charts of techniques, but again, the advanced (brown belts) get all kinds of stuff thrown at them. (sometimes literally thrown).

Just another approach with a desire to attain effectiveness.
Respectfully,

Steve C
7th February 2001, 09:13
Originally posted by KenpoKev
You just described the primary method we use to test in Kenpo.

Ha! Great minds think alike, obviously! ;-)

Do you know of any sites that show a typical syllabus?

Thanks,

Steve

MarkF
7th February 2001, 12:33
Any historians out there know where the colors first came into play? I'm not referring to the "__kyu" rank, so to speak, but the introduction of a colored belt to go with it, in case the timing was different.



Seems no one wanted to take this one on, so I'll give it a go.

Devon, the first structured grading system was begun by Jigoro Kano Shihan, and his first students, when the Kodokan was located in his home, were shodan. That was the first step, to sign in. So shodan really is the beginning. Kyu or student levels came later, but as far as Kano was concerned, the only difference really needed, was the color white. Since he held no grade in judo, he wore black hakama and kimono while the students wore white. Anyway, you know that. How even he decided on a black belt with the judogi is not set in stone, but there are pictures of Kano from the 1910s and 1920s in which he is showing the judogi, and in those pictures, he is seen to wear a black belt, but rarely if ever, did he wear a judogi.

No one is really sure exactly when other colors of belts came to represent different mudansha (and all students under black were mudansha, no matter the proficiency). There is some history to the brown belt being used first in Germany or Holland, but dates are lacking. Brown certified a senpai, or senior student, at ikkyu level, but the multicolors seen today came out of Europe, probably France in the 1950s, but even here, it was only white, brown, and black for adults, with green at sankyu, then violet for junior students. Even when violet represented nikkyu, when the extraordinary student was graded to ikkyu, s/he kept the colot violet, to separate the under age students from young adults. This too, is rather imprecise, as soon sankyu adults were wearing brown.

So the credit (blame?) goes to France. Even in the sixties, the adopted colors were simply white, brown and black, and the juniors accumulated more and more colors.

In Japan, amoung adults, some ikkyu do wear brown, and in other dojo, they wear white. A mudansha is mudansha after all.

Also, the accepted mudansha begins at rokyu. You can do the math. This, of course, is the official judo grades, and anyone is free to do whatever is right with them. I'm only giving the "official" IJF grades. The Kodokan is a little different, much more conservative. After that, anything goes.;)

Mark



[Edited by MarkF on 02-07-2001 at 06:36 AM]

Johan
9th February 2001, 11:44
In my school, Gake Dojo, we train jujutsu (style: Hoku Shin Ko Ryu Jujutsu). We don´t charge any fee for the gradings, but the students have to buy the belt, which will cost about 5 or 6 usd.

Older than 14 years:
5 kyu - 1 kyu (yellow, orange, green, blue and brown belt).

To test to black belt you must be 16 years old (Sho Dan Ho, after 18 years old Sho Dan). I haven´t yet graded any student higher than 2 dan, but we have a minimum of one year, or prefereble two years (from brown belt). We don´t charge any fee for dangrades. I have been thinking of to charge 50 usd for 1 dan but that would then include an embroided black belt.

Younger than 14 year:
10 mon-1 mon (yellow-white, yellow, orange-white, orange etc)

Yonger than 9 year:
Red-white, red-white with one black stripe, red, red with one black stripe, yellow-white, y-w black stripe, etc up to orange-white belt. There after they move on to the mon-group.

And why do I use this system for gradings? Children want to have goals for there training and some sort of reavard. But if you have yellow belt you should be able to demonstrate the technics that belong to the yellow belt syllabus.

I am little sceptical to all system that have children blackbelts, children must be motivated but this is just not the way...

Jason Chambers
9th February 2001, 16:25
This has got to be one of THE longest threads on E-Budo....

glad2bhere
9th February 2001, 19:59
Dear Kokujin:

Maybe not. I bet that string on STAINLESS STEEL SWORDS probably holds the record. Its was a great string and had dynamite information in it. Of course there are a couple of strings in BAD BUDO that have gone quite a while too.

This is tryuely a great website and a really asset for the sincere MA.
We're lucky to have it.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Nyuck3X
21st February 2001, 03:17
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MarkF
So the credit (blame?) goes to France. Even in the sixties, the adopted colors were simply white, brown and black, and the juniors accumulated more and more colors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can remember a story my mother in-law told me about pre WWII Germany. She recalls having different colored bands on her school hat to designate what grade she was in.

I trained privately with someone for years before having a belt (black) given to me. That was only because I had started taking class with my teacher's brother and he had a large school. It was more for the benefit of the other students than it was for me.

That club is long gone now and I now train at a commercial school but because of my respect for the owner/teacher, I wear a white belt. He knows my rank and knows what I can do. I typically get the newcomer relocating from another school who wishes to retain his/her rank, trying to tell me what to do or how to do things. I shrug them off.

It's easy to say "train for the experience, not for the belt" once you have attained Yudansha, but on the way up it's tough to keep the motivation...

____________________

Ray Baldonade

Chip
22nd February 2001, 22:37
When I took TKD and Judo we had colored belts like most places. Where I live now I am taking Iaido. Eveyone pretty much has the same uniform and belt. The few that are different are just different and designate no rank. I have no idea what rank anyone is unless they tell me. I have found that I really like it. I am more concerned with training than promotion. I am more concerned with learning and then improving what I have learned. Once I learn something I want to improve it instead of worrying about what I need to learn next for a promotion. I have many more goals than I used to. In TKD I would have a goal to learn the forms and techniques needed for the next rank. In Iaido my goal is to become the best I possibly can in every part of every form. I don't mind when I have to do one form all class long. When I get that form down I feel a since of accomplishment. I want to keep practicing that form as strictly as possible no matter how far I advance. For, I have put a lot of work into it and that work will be wasted if I don't improve it further. Of course in Iaido we do the forms over and over anyway. Judo was different than TKD even though there were belts. I just wanted to learn every technique I could and try them out in randori. I have nothing against colored belts. I used to feel a great since of pride for each new one I received. If I train in another art that has colored belts I will still feel pride in each new one I get, but I will feel more pride in what I have learned to get there.