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tsumiainokurai
8th February 2007, 11:16
Hi all,

I have been reading these forums for quite a long time but this is my first ever post.

I have a question:

Does anybody know the full meaning in English of all the Kata names in Tsumiai No Kurai section of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu?

I have all of Omori Ryu, Eishin Ryu, Okuai and Tachi Uchi No Kurai mean of their names. But I am missing Tsumiai No Kurai for some reason!

Bundle of Thanks for your help in advance :)

Yours in Budo
Joe Falz

Sanppa75
8th February 2007, 14:39
Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Kata:

Tsume Ai No Kurai

Ippon Me Hassou

Nihon Me Kobushi Tori

Sanbon Me Iwa Nami

Shihon Me Yae Gaki

Gohon Me Uroko Gaeshi

Roppon Me Kurai Yurumi

Shichihon Me Tsubame Gaeshi

Hachihon Me Gan Seki Otoshi

Kyuhon Me Sui Getsu To

Juppon Me Kasumi Ken

Juippon Me Uchikomi (Tome No ken)

Sanppa75
8th February 2007, 15:16
Sorry, I was missreading your post...I thought that u are only looking for the names of tsume ai.... :rolleyes:

But maybe u should try to contact Colin Hyakutake-Watkin sensei (moderator), maybe he has some answers. :)

Eric Spinelli
8th February 2007, 15:47
I've heard rumors that they've recently started production on this thing called a dictionary. When they finally get around to releasing such a novelty to the public, I recommend you look into acquiring one.

On that note, the kanji:
英信流形詰合之位
一本目 八層
二本目 拳取
三本目 岩波
四本目 八重垣
五本目 鱗波
六本目 位弛
七本目 眼関落
八本目 水月刀
九本目 霞剣
十本目 討込 (留の剣)

So while most modern dictionaries wont actually have translations for these words, many being archaic, you should be able to piece together the various meanings through kanji definitions. I recommend using WWWJDIC (EDICT) for starters. Why you would need to translate the names in to English, though, is beyond me but I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

tsumiainokurai
8th February 2007, 16:01
Eric why bother learning the names of the Kata if you don't whant to know what they mean???

I've tried 3 different dictionaries and the results are totaly different so I will not relly on anything that I am not sure about. that is why I asked people who train Iai.

The more i look into dictionaries the more I get the feeling that some Budo technique's names are different than the words used in the language???? :-/

In the mean time, I appreceate if I could get the meaning of these names.

Thanks Sanppa75,

Steve Delaney
8th February 2007, 17:52
Eric why bother learning the names of the Kata if you don't whant to know what they mean???

I've tried 3 different dictionaries and the results are totaly different so I will not relly on anything that I am not sure about. that is why I asked people who train Iai.

The more i look into dictionaries the more I get the feeling that some Budo technique's names are different than the words used in the language???? :-/

In the mean time, I appreceate if I could get the meaning of these names.

Thanks Sanppa75,

Why don't you ask your teacher then?

tsumiainokurai
8th February 2007, 18:03
maybe cause i am currently abroad on bussiness for a whole 2 months!!!!! and i'm certainly not a waiting guy.....

I cant train Iai properly cause i dont have the Iaito here, infact i'm using a chair metal leg that i found out comes off... lol... at least i'm still training... I will use this time to properly learn the Japanese terms...

The manual that i got all of the meanings of all the other kata names were given to me from Sensei but i'm missing the last page, Tsumiai no Kurai :(

I never tought these names were so hard to get... I ask a question and get other questions as answears. :) but some are very willing to help. Thanks you guys.

Steve Delaney
8th February 2007, 18:06
maybe cause i am currently abroad on bussiness for a whole 2 months!!!!! and i'm certainly not a waiting guy.....

Well the first problem can't be helped. The second problem will do you no favours as a student of koryu in any way, shape or form. With some teachers, impatience can be seen as impertinance.

There are some students of MJER who have to wait a good few years before learning Tsumeai No Kurai properly.

tsumiainokurai
8th February 2007, 18:24
Infact i did seitei, omori, and am doing the last kata of eishin (makko). But whats wrong in learning the names in advance?

As i said this trip of mine is a chance on a gold plate to sit down and learn the names of kata and also doing Jujutsu techniques names. I'm all alone here after work, my wife is at home, here its just me and the chair leg and my training notes.....

what better time than this?

I almost give up that il find these names before i get back home :(

Douglas Wylie
8th February 2007, 22:12
Most of these are familiar if you are at the level to practice it.
3 are from Tachi uchi no kurai
2 from Tatehiza no bu
1 from Seiza no bu
1 from Iwaza (pretty much)

The names are pretty much poetic and basically don't make a lot of sense unless you have been taught what they mean (which I haven't been, yet).

I can kind of glean some meaning from them but I really dont KNOW exactly what they are talking about.

Take Hasso, you'd have to know that it is a "posture (I ain't too keen on that word though)" (which is information you should get learning Tachiuchi no kurai), but the kanji doesnt say, "hold sword like this" it says something to the effect of "8th phase". Dadgum, that implies 7 other phases, what could those be??

And Suigetsu means "water moon", you'd have to know that it is budo slang for a portion of your anatomy.

I'd imagine that Kobushidori is kind of literal, meaning you dori the kobushi;), but who knows... you may get dori'ed in the kobushi. And that can't be good.:D

I could give you the dictionary definition of Kuraiyurumi but it doesnt make much sense (at my level). Same for Tsubamegaeshi, no one taught me anything about that yet.

Id imagine Gansekiotoshi is some sort of throw.

I'd just let it go for now. You know "dont spit in the wind" and whatever the deal was with the flagpole.

Eric Spinelli
9th February 2007, 03:41
Eric why bother learning the names of the Kata if you don't whant to know what they mean???

I said nothing about (not) understanding the meanings. I spoke only of translation - which is inefficient at best, impossible at worst, and all around not very useful. I think this point is illustrated in Mr. Wylie's post.

In cases like this, even learning Japanese isn't good enough. None of my friends know what suigetsu means and they laugh when they hear tanden; that is, if they even know what it is. But if you're going to ignore the language that provides the context nothing good will come of it.

I've noticed that even those in a position to teach have often forgotten the names. It's OK, because they're conveniently written down and that paper is brought to every class. Sometimes its because sensei is old, sometimes because once the forms have been understood the names can be discarded, and sometimes its because they're not important. There is one fellow in our dojo who knows all the names of all the katas; doesn't mean he's particularly adept at doing them. And there are those who are skilled and do have the talent and spirit but are constantly asking, "What's this one called, again?" when they're teaching young'ins such as myself.

I certainly am not discouraging learning, nor critizing your effort, but I can think of a few better things to do than translating the untranslatable.

Sincerely,

tsumiainokurai
9th February 2007, 09:39
Thats reasonable arguing.

But most of the meanings of all the other Kata did help me associate the names with the kata itself. Not all, but most.

Finding the Tsumiai no Kurai seems impossible!!

The only translation I found is in German and the german translation i did with the computer is hopeless!!

and I'm really wondering why 'hasso' is translated to 'begin'!!!

my head is turning...

tsumiainokurai
9th February 2007, 10:21
in any case if by any chance anybody know the meaning of these Kata i would really appreceate it if you share them with me.

Thanks.

ichibyoshi
9th February 2007, 11:45
Lighten up guys! The OP is not asking how to teach himself MJER via DVD or somesuch other heresy. He's bored, away from home and dojo, and wanting to fill in some gaps in his knowledge. There's nothing I can see wrong with that.

As a student of Japanese language and koryu (although not MJER), I'd be interested to know how those terms are translated into English too.

b

tsumiainokurai
9th February 2007, 15:06
ichibyoshi thanks

Maybe if i asked the guys to give me some 100000000 in cash, i think it would have been easier... :)

K. Cantwell
9th February 2007, 17:31
Why you would need to translate the names in to English, though, is beyond me but I hope this helps.

I find knowing the names in English is, for me at least, interesting. Some are quite technical and concrete others rather poetic and ethereal. Meaning, of course, will come out of training in the dojo. As a peripheral curiosity, though, knowing the names in one's native language is helpful.

I'm also a Spanish teacher and at one seminar, I had quite an interesting discussion with a guy from Venezuela about the names in Spanish. The exercise was purely linguistic and had very little to do with budo, but it was a load a fun to try to come up with valid translations.

So, the context is obviously Japanese and some names (like Suigetsu) are inextricably linked to references in that culture. Others, though, not so much. ("Left Wrist Cut" seems pretty straightforward.) I don't see any real harm in trying the translations.

Kevin Cantwell

A.J. Bryant
9th February 2007, 20:41
Joseph,

Have you tried Google??

tsumiainokurai
9th February 2007, 20:51
I even tried iaioogle!!!! :)

ill try again.. thanks

Kim Taylor
10th February 2007, 16:16
Cripes, doesn't anybody have anything better to do? Seems a pretty simple request to me.

Without actually going and looking at the things, here's what I'd tell folks they mean.

Ippon Me Hassou

Hasso is a stance.

Nihon Me Kobushi Tori

Attacking the fist

Sanbon Me Iwa Nami

literally rock wave, waves crashing on the rocks

Shihon Me Yae Gaki

"8 hedgerows" or some such, defence in depth, think thorny bushes in front of the castle.

Gohon Me Uroko Gaeshi

"Fishscale turnover" Scaling fish.

Roppon Me Kurai Yurumi

Coming together, meeting, something like that.

Shichihon Me Tsubame Gaeshi

Swallow's tail, you find this one in every single sword school out there. Usually it's striking and returning, like a swallow flies.


Hachihon Me Gan Seki Otoshi

Can't remember, otoshi is to drop.

Kyuhon Me Sui Getsu To

Into the solar plexus, solar plexus sword.

Juppon Me Kasumi Ken

"mountain mist sword" Hidden, obscured, or brushing the mist away so you can see.

Juippon Me Uchikomi (Tome No ken)

Striking together.

Knowing the "meaning" of a kata's name is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. What's the "meaning" of Tennis? as Trevor Jones once said to me as I nagged him for a translation.

Kim Taylor
"never got the hang of being un-helpful and pretending it's helpful"

Joseph Svinth
10th February 2007, 18:43
Re tennis, in case one's teacher likes such examples, the following is the full etymology, according to http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tennis :

QUOTE

1345, most likely from Anglo-Fr. tenetz "hold! receive! take!," from O.Fr. tenez, imperative of tenir "to hold, receive, take," which was used as a call from the server to his opponent. The original version of the game (a favorite sport of medieval Fr. knights) was played by striking the ball with the palm of the hand, and in O.Fr. was called la paulme, lit. "the palm," but to an onlooker the service cry would naturally seem to identify the game. The use of the word for the modern game is from 1874, short for lawn tennis, which originally was called sphairistike (1873), from Gk. sphairistike (tekhne) "(skill) in playing at ball," from the root of sphere. It was invented, and named, by Maj. Walter C. Wingfield and first played at a garden party in Wales, inspired by the popularity of badminton.

"The name 'sphairistike,' however, was impossible (if only because people would pronounce it as a word of three syllables to rhyme with 'pike') and it was soon rechristened." ["Times" of London, June 10, 1927]

END QUOTE

As for the Anglo-Norman "tenetz," that word is apparently of Basque origin (Southern French knights of fourteenth century were often Basque), and in Basque, it is a reference to the way that the server stretches as he strikes the ball. See http://euskalherria.indymedia.org/eu/2004/03/13355.shtml . (In the original Basque game, the form, the etiquette, was everything, thus the game being popular known for what we would today call "service".)

Kim Taylor
10th February 2007, 20:46
Joe you need to get another hobby or three! ;-)

Kim.

ichibyoshi
10th February 2007, 22:09
Amateur philology is just one of those things. Wordspotting might be a better term. Spahn and Hadamitzky's Kanji Dictionary (http://www.amazon.com/Kanji-Dictionary-Mark-Spahn/dp/0804820589) was one of my best ever purchases.

b

kenkyusha
10th February 2007, 23:31
Shichihon Me Tsubame Gaeshi
Swallow reversal.


Hachihon Me Gan Seki Otoshi
Ganseki is a rock, otoshi (as Mr. Taylor said) is drop.

Be well,
Jigme

Kim Taylor
11th February 2007, 00:38
Ganseki is a rock, otoshi (as Mr. Taylor said) is drop.

Be well,
Jigme

That's it, dropping a big rock. You'll find the same name in Chambers and Hatsumi's book on stick if I remember right.

All the names will have some sort of connection to the kata or to the feeling of the kata.

Kim.

Paul Steadman
11th February 2007, 05:02
Hmmmmm,

"Swallow reversal," wouldn't that be vomit :-D just joking. Tsubame geashi can also be pronounced empi (embi) gaeshi. Funakoshi Gichin-sensei renamed the old Okinawan Tode kata Wanshu to Empi (darting swallow).

Cheers,

ichibyoshi
11th February 2007, 07:41
It was also reputed to be Sasaki Kojiro's tokui waza.

b

ScottUK
11th February 2007, 10:48
What good it did him... :D

ZealUK
11th February 2007, 12:53
Kata called empi ( 燕飛 ) are found in loads of ryuha...

Tsubame gaeshi can't be pronounced empi gaeshi. You need the extra character 飛 for the hi (pi) sound.

K. Cantwell
11th February 2007, 13:23
That's it, dropping a big rock. You'll find the same name in Chambers and Hatsumi's book on stick if I remember right.

Yep. It's the third technique given against fist attacks.

They also give two other versions of "dropping a big rock." One is makikomi (enfolding) and the other is garami (entangling). All versions end up with the poor sod who attacked you on the ground after one of the painful manipulations that Kukishin-ryu is known for. So, it would seem, the enemy is the big rock being dropped.

I had a chance to get a taste of this stuff at a seminar in Ohio with Chambers Sensei a few years ago. They should probably call this "Dropping a big rock and making it cry like a baby for it's mommy."

Kevin Cantwell

Eric Spinelli
11th February 2007, 13:56
Knowing the "meaning" of a kata's name is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. What's the "meaning" of Tennis? as Trevor Jones once said to me as I nagged him for a translation.

Maybe I wasn't clear but I thought that was my point. If phrases like "Solar Plexus Sword" are useful to your practice I'd surely like to know how.



"never got the hang of being un-helpful and pretending it's helpful"

Don't worry; like anything else, with enough practice it becomes second nature.

Sincerely,
Eric
"Never got the hang of feeling I deserved anything other than what I got from strangers."

-Proud member of the "Coalition for the Remote Possibility of a Literate 21st Century" and "But If I Wasn't, You Could Guess Where the Smilies Would Go Society," and Head-Assistant-Grand-Soke-Master of the "If You Can't Take a Joke... Federation."

All joking aside, there are credible articles published titled "Get a New Wife" and "You Want Koyru? Come to Japan;" I think it's time for a dedicated "Shut up and Learn Japanese, You Hobo" article. Except maybe a little more polite and thus written by somebody that isn't me.

Steve Delaney
11th February 2007, 15:59
I think it's time for a dedicated "Shut up and Learn Japanese, You Hobo" article. Except maybe a little more polite and thus written by somebody that isn't me.

Eric, the inspiration you have just given me. :D

Kim Taylor
11th February 2007, 16:49
Maybe I wasn't clear but I thought that was my point. If phrases like "Solar Plexus Sword" are useful to your practice I'd surely like to know how.

The techniques called "solar plexus sword" in MJER tend to be techniques where you are making a move to hit, or fake toward, the solar plexus. If you're going to name the kata I'd say that was a pretty useful way to name it.

Other similarly useful names are front, right (left sword), left (right sword), rear etc.

I find them helpful.

Kim.

Chidokan
11th February 2007, 19:37
To be fair to the original poster I do feel some sympathy for him...my memory is absolutely useless when it comes to names (of people as well as waza... :rolleyes: )
I even did a memory jogger list for the dojo at one point... I also have a kanji 'memory jogger' tenugui from Oshita sensei for all the MJER solo waza (so it aint just me then! :D )

I can see why you'd want it, although it's best to be doing the waza and repeating the name at the same time.

ScottUK
11th February 2007, 19:41
I disagree. When I think ipponme, I think Mae. I don't translate it, likewise kirioroshi is 'kirioroshi', not 'cut down'.

I'm sure it is useful to some, but I don't see the need - other than for academic purposes...

K. Cantwell
11th February 2007, 20:22
Maybe I wasn't clear but I thought that was my point. If phrases like "Solar Plexus Sword" are useful to your practice I'd surely like to know how.

Isn't there an element of timing in one of the definitions of "suigetsu"?

At least, that is what my jo teacher tells me. It really isn't about the anatomy so much as a timing element that allows the jo to be successful against the sword. After all, you wouldn't hit him in the solar plexus with a stick anyway if you could help it; stick it through his brain pan or into his neck.

In that sense, the name does help as it keys in on what the technique is really about: controlling the timing of the encounter. Once I started thinking of the technique in these terms, it helped me a bit.

I don't speak Japanese, so I have to take my teacher's word for it. He's said it a bunch of times over the years, though, so I think it is important. At least in our dojo it is. Your mileage may (will) vary.

Kevin Cantwell

Steve Delaney
12th February 2007, 03:33
Isn't there an element of timing in one of the definitions of "suigetsu"?

Kevin yes there is a concept of timing called suigetsu. It's used by a lot of kenjutsu ryuha which have several different individual terms for it.

Suigetsu is also the name given to a kyusho on the human body.

Suigetsu in Tsumeai No Kurai doesn't involve a thrust to the suigetsu.

You can work out the rest from there.

Eric Spinelli
12th February 2007, 03:49
Kevin yes there is a concept of timing called suigetsu. It's used by a lot of kenjutsu ryuha which have several different individual terms for it.

Suigetsu is also the name given to a kyusho on the human body.

Suigetsu in Tsumeai No Kurai doesn't involve a thrust to the suigetsu.

You can work out the rest from there.

Now that I didn't know. I've never actually seen Suigetsu; we didn't get quite that far through our last in-house demonstration because uchitachi got, well, uchi'd. I'm not sure, but I don't think you're supposed to block with your head. Thank you.



Eric, the inspiration you have just given me.

If you're speaking of actually writing such an article I expect royalties for use of the title. Now if only I could speak Japanese myself... or refrain from atsukan-fueled, late-night internet escapades.

Sincerely,

ichibyoshi
12th February 2007, 10:16
I disagree. When I think ipponme, I think Mae. I don't translate it, likewise kirioroshi is 'kirioroshi', not 'cut down'.

I'm sure it is useful to some, but I don't see the need - other than for academic purposes...

Good point. I also don't translate terms in my head while training. I think in Japanese. But I can only do that because at some point I learned what those phrases meant, which meant having them translated into English for me.

b

tsumiainokurai
12th February 2007, 11:29
I don't see why its such a big deal to why people like me whant to know their meaning,

When I think Ippon Me i think mae and front. When I think Oikaze I think chase the wind as well.
etc.

Thanks for the translations!

I'm still a bit confused with "kurai yurumi".. you said it means come togethor but in the dictionary kurai means "dark" and "yurumi" i dont know what it means. Can you help me out on this?

One other thing, hasso is not exectly a stance, Hasso Kamae is a stance. Hasso is fgure eight. And since Hasso the stance is never used in this kata (thats what i taught when i've seen it), so i just wrote "figure eight". It makes a little more sence. Is this correct?

Thanks again. Very much!

ScottUK
12th February 2007, 12:05
I'm still a bit confused with "kurai yurumi".. you said it means come togethor but in the dictionary kurai means "dark" and "yurumi" i dont know what it means. Can you help me out on this?The kanji for 'kurai' is 位, not 暗.


One other thing, hasso is not exectly a stance, Hasso Kamae is a stance. Hasso is fgure eight. And since Hasso the stance is never used in this kata (thats what i taught when i've seen it), so i just wrote "figure eight". It makes a little more sence. Is this correct?Try this:

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0108&L=iaido-l&D=0&T=0&P=10987

tsumiainokurai
12th February 2007, 15:46
thanks again!

Still confussed on Hasso..

On that link he says "Hasso = Go out Fast".

On another it says "Hasso = Figure Eight"

On another it says "Hasso = Stance"

which one do you think is correct?

K. Cantwell
12th February 2007, 16:04
which one do you think is correct?

Well, at the point at which you have varying definitions, it comes down to what your tradition says it is.

There is a line between personal interest in translating and the "meaning" of the technique in the context of the ryu. You may have little ways of thinking of things to help your training, but these interpretations are for your consumption only. The ryu will tell you (or not) what the official interpretation is.

In other words, the "correct" interpretation of Hasso is whatever your tradition says it is. Nobody outside your ryu could really say with any validity.

Kevin Cantwell

ScottUK
12th February 2007, 16:42
which one do you think is correct?The one your teacher says is correct.

Douglas Wylie
12th February 2007, 19:51
So... what your'e saying is- you are not able to make much sense of the names.

I wonder where I heard that... hmmm...



The names are pretty much poetic and basically don't make a lot of sense unless you have been taught what they mean.

Fine.. I'll look them up on wwwjdic for you... and you can see for yourself- It'll take a couple of minutes.

pgsmith
12th February 2007, 19:58
On that link he says "Hasso = Go out Fast".

On another it says "Hasso = Figure Eight"

On another it says "Hasso = Stance"
Joseph,
I think you have just hit upon why people are somewhat reluctant to give out translations. First, very few are truly fluent in Japanese and can say just what translations should be. Second, Japanese is extremly context driven and so "definitions" can change quite a bit depending upon where, when, and who is saying the words.

Steve,
If you write an article with that title, we'll take up a collection to offset the copyright costs! :) And Kim could probably be persuaded to put it in the Iaido Journal.

tsumiainokurai
12th February 2007, 20:02
actually i said Figure Eight makes more sense. The Kanji figure eight. The way the two sword meet in the end. It makes alot of sense :)

But at this point I want to be sure.

I never trained Tsumiai no Kurai katas but I have seen them over and over being done by Sensei. And listened carefully to the names. I really like these Kata! Also cause im a Jujutsu guy and preety much like the link of Jujutsu and Iai in these forms.

Thanks for thaking the time to do such a thing!!! Im honored!! I would also like to thank simon keegen, he has helped alot. And to all of you guys!!


Im almost done now!

Douglas Wylie
12th February 2007, 20:16
詰合之位 Tsumeainokurai
八相 Hasso
八 eight
相 inter-; mutual; together; each other; minister of state; councillor; aspect; phase; physiognomy
拳取 Kobushidori
拳 fist
取 take; fetch; take up
岩浪 Iwanami
岩 boulder; rock; cliff
浪 wandering; waves; billows
八重垣 Yaegaki
八 eight
重 heavy; heap up; pile up; nest of boxes; -fold
垣 hedge; fence; wall
鱗形 Urokogata (some say Urokogaeshi, I’m using the list I have)
鱗 scales (fish)
形 Kata(gata in a compound) shape; form; style
Or
返 Kaeshi (gaeshi in a compound) return; answer; fade; repay
位弛 Kuraiyurumi
位 rank; grade; throne; crown; about; some
弛 slacken; relax
燕返 Tsubamegaeshi
燕 swallow (bird)
返 return; answer; fade; repay
眼關落 Gansekiotoshi
眼 eyeball
關 connection; barrier; gateway; involve; concerning
落 fall; drop; come down
水月刀 Suigetsuto
水 water
月 month; moon
刀 sword; saber; knife
霞剣 Kasumiken
霞 be hazy; grow dim; blurred
剣 sabre; sword; blade; clock hand
打込 Uchikomi
打 strike; hit; knock; pound; dozen
込 crowded; mixture; in bulk; included

Amazing... cut and paste, an online dictionary, and 15 minutes. :rolleyes:

Douglas Wylie
12th February 2007, 20:42
There are also 2 relevant compounds-

八重垣 Yaegaki
八 eight
重 heavy; heap up; pile up; nest of boxes; -fold
垣 hedge; fence; wall
Compound- 八重 【やえ】 (n) multilayered; doubled

位弛 Kuraiyurumi
位 rank; grade; throne; crown; about; some
弛 slacken; relax
Compound-位地 【いち】 (n,vs) place; situation; position; location

SLeclair
12th February 2007, 21:17
thanks again!

Still confussed on Hasso..

On that link he says "Hasso = Go out Fast".

On another it says "Hasso = Figure Eight"

On another it says "Hasso = Stance"

which one do you think is correct?

One possible confusion with the name of the kata here is the fact that there is the stance called hasso, which is 八相, and there is the kata in tsumeai no kurai called hasso, which is 発早. The first would have a meaning of "figure eight" (although I think this is not related to the number 8, but rather the shape of the kanji for it), the second is "depart quickly".

I have seen web sites using the first form in their lists, but Mitani sensei's book uses the latter. It also seems to make more sense in the context of the kata, or at least from seeing it (I have not done tsumeai no kurai yet).

One note: you may find some more information using "tsumeai no kurai" instead of "tsumiai no kurai". I can't see a "tsumi" reading for the kanji (although it may be an old reading, like jitsu/jutsu). Using both when you search will get you the most information.

Kim Taylor
12th February 2007, 22:18
"Suigetsu in Tsumeai No Kurai doesn't involve a thrust to the suigetsu. "

There is in the suigetsu I practice.



OK I went and looked up my notes:

Hasso is "quickly"

Kobushi Tori is "fist catching" or grabbing the fist

Nami Gaeshi (not iwa nami) is "rolling waves"

Yae Gaki is 8 (infinite) hedgerows or defense in depth

Uroko Gaeshi is scaling fish

Kurai Yurumi is "correct distance... plus a little"

Tsubame Gaeshi is "swallow's counter" counter quickly like a swallow flies

Ganseki Otoshi

Suigetsu to

Kasumi ken

Looks like I got bored and stopped copying for the last three in this set of notes but they've been discussed above.

Folks, arguing about the correct translation of kata is rather silly. The names are a way of remembering what comes next, they don't have any inherent meaning in themselves, unless you get a name like kobushi kudaki and you end up hitting the sword at the end... In that case the name might give you a clue as to the "secret meaning" of the kata.

There are multiple translations of names but there are also, especially at this level of practice (or more accurately, non-practice) multiple ways of doing the kata. I have learned, over the last couple of decades, three entirely different sets of 10 tachi uchi no kurai, and one more set of seven. That's 37 ways of doing a single set of 10/7 kata in MJER not counting the variations in any of the 4 "sets".

There is not ONE way to do this stuff unless you're a beginner. Of course, as a beginner it's essential that you think there's only one way to do it... much less confusing but by the time you've been around the block by yourself (assuming you're still actually practicing and learning beyond a couple of years of course) you will come across many different ways to do kata.

In the art as a whole the variations between "lines" and sensei get more obvious and more numerous as you go "up" in the school levels. By the time you hit Tsumi Ai no Kurai you're looking at something that isn't practiced that often by that many people so the variations can be massive. "So how did the old fellow do this one again?"

Let alone the other sets "beyond" this one which I'm just having a look at in Danzaki's book that I just discovered on my shelf. Peter Boylan must have slipped it to me.

Kim Taylor

tsumiainokurai
13th February 2007, 09:22
depart quickly makes more sence! much more.

Suigetsu To still dosent. water moon? solar plexus ... anyways i listed them both :)

Douglas... you might wana share that online dictionery :) Cause i searched high and low for one like that!

Simon Keegan
13th February 2007, 09:56
For what it's worth I think Nami Gaeshi means "returning wave" not rolling wave.
Well that's what we're taught in Karate anyway (the Nami Gaeshi is in the kata Tekki Shodan as a kick/sweep)

Simon Keegan
10th Kyu Iaido

tsumiainokurai
13th February 2007, 10:18
I agree with simon there. 100%.

Regarding Suigetsu in Tachi Uchi no Kurai and Tsumiai no Kurai, Suigetsu is indeed correct!! I've found some notes sensei wrote and one mentions an initial atempt to make seme to suigetsu while the other imideately cuts and the other says kind of pushing with seme to suigetsu and the other moves back. Not sure what he is talking about but cant wait to find out!

Thanks guys.

tsumiainokurai
13th February 2007, 10:24
well almost all names make sence now!

ZealUK
13th February 2007, 11:21
There was a great post on here a while back by Prof. Bodiford on the various meanings of Suigetsu...

Ah..

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=208388&postcount=12

That's it.

Eric Spinelli
13th February 2007, 13:16
Douglas... you might wana share that online dictionery :) Cause i searched high and low for one like that!

As he mentioned it earlier, I believe Douglas is using WWWJDIC (EDICT), which can easily be found by typing either of those initials into Google or the name Jim Breen. Here is a mirror hosted by Monash University (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html).

While you were searching high and low you should have been searching right down the middle. Buddha said that...

Sincerely,

Kim Taylor
13th February 2007, 17:32
I agree with simon there. 100%.

Regarding Suigetsu in Tachi Uchi no Kurai and Tsumiai no Kurai, Suigetsu is indeed correct!! I've found some notes sensei wrote and one mentions an initial atempt to make seme to suigetsu while the other imideately cuts and the other says kind of pushing with seme to suigetsu and the other moves back. Not sure what he is talking about but cant wait to find out!

Thanks guys.


You "fake" toward his solar plexus, he falls for the fake (sees the moon in the water and thinks it's the real moon) and swings for your sword or wrist to prevent the attack, you withdraw (the moon goes behind the cloud) and then attack in turn.

But a fake won't work since we're talking about hara to hara or suigetsu to suigetsu communication between swordsmen so the attack has to be as real as the moon in the sky before he will accept it as such and react. Then at the instant he accepts it as real, it appears "in the water" and becomes just another illusion of the world and is gone like the moon in the water is gone when it's disturbed by a pebble, like the pebble of doubt or the rock of excess rationalization which clouds men's minds like "The Shadow" (Tsuki Kage).

I could go on but Dr. Bodiford's last statement is the critical statement in his post. By all means, go learn the culture and the language if that's your "desire" (Buddhist meaning intended) but don't expect that any of that is going to make you a better swordsman. Only correct practice with the right instructors will do that.

If you're at all familiar with the kendo no kata, the same technique is found there a couple of times.

Kim.

tsumiainokurai
13th February 2007, 18:28
Infact i did start a japanese launguage course but had to stop as my only free time (apart that which i give to my family) i prefer to go to the Dojo. Cant aford any more time. So I had to choose.

So i said at least I should learn the terms of Budo that I am into!

Thanks Kim, I wrote Solar Plexus / Moon Water. Both make sense. But the solar plexus is easier to understand. These translations wont make me a better swords man but they usually help alot in understanding what the kata is about even before you see it. And untill i learn the name associated to the kata, the translation helps me make the connection. Many say this, not just me.

With me I got a whole Gym bag full of notes, books and DVD's of demonstrations that we did in the past. I like to re-look and spot my defects and then I watch Haruna Sensei on the video he let my Sensei take of his kata, and I say.... boy I know nothing! :) If I dont do this, i'll be a begginner again in two months!

Douglas Wylie
13th February 2007, 19:26
Douglas... you might wana share that online dictionery :) Cause i searched high and low for one like that!

Oh, well they are hiding it on Google, you have to look under "japanese dictionary". :)

Chidokan
13th February 2007, 19:39
at least he didnt go to wikipedia for a translation.... :D

Brian Owens
13th February 2007, 20:12
...Suigetsu To still dosent. water moon? solar plexus ... anyways i listed them both :)
If it's hard to understand how "suigetsu" (watery moon) can refer to a point on the body, think abbout the term "solar plexus." We all learn what the solar plexus is, but the term literally means "sun's gathering point."