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Jeff Cook
24th December 2000, 21:13
O.K., let's get something useful going here.

I would like to hear some of your knife fighting training drills, in enough detail to be useful to folks practicing combat with a short blade.

Feel free to open other topics relating to training practices in various aspects of hand-to-hand.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Neil Hawkins
26th December 2000, 09:04
Do you mean empty hand vs knife, or knife vs knife?

Anyway, as what I do is Philippino based, we start with slow basic exercises utilising the twelve basic strikes in order against set unarmed defences, usually using a wooden knife. As the students confidence builds we speed up the attacks and change from a set order and standard targets. Gradually we increase speed and variation, ultimately using multiple attacks from a variety of grips, left and right handed with a steel (blunt) blade. We will also use a marker pen to illustrate how often you will get cut, no matter how good you are.

The main areas to train are combative distance and body positioning. I tend to avoid the traditional japanese style knife attacks as they are very commited, they had to be to penetrate armour, but today most knife fighters will wear you down with slashes and only stab when they feel confident of success. Good knife fighters will use the blade to trap and lock, cutting tendons in the process, that way they eliminate defensive weapons progressively until they can finish you off.

The thing to remember is though that if the knife fighter is really good, you won't even know he has a knife until you're bleeding on the floor. For that reason I don't like rubber or flexible training knives, the blade must be rigid and shaped so that the attacker learns to use the back and the blade, and the defender can feel when he gets cut or stabbed.

Hope everyone had a happy and safe Christmas.

Regards

Neil

Jeff Cook
26th December 2000, 13:45
Thanks, Neil! Very useful stuff.

Can you verbally describe a basic drill in sufficient detail that it can be performed?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

JamesF
27th December 2000, 17:32
http://www.geocities.com/kalipages/index.html

This page has loads of FMA video clips that might be of interest to you.

What about from a Japanese 'Tanto-Jutsu' perspective? Different views from the Filipino's?

James.

Jeff Cook
27th December 2000, 18:14
Thank you very much, James! That link is very helpful.

Unfortunately, the tantojutsu I have been exposed to has been very weak, which I suppose is not very surprising. The same thing goes for the Japanese bayonet arts, but to a lesser degree - at least they are trying to do something useful and modern with it.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Neil Hawkins
28th December 2000, 00:01
Jeff, I'll give you more, but I must stress that this is a drill and part of a number that build to combat effectiveness, do not view it as an actual SD technique.

Looking at the attacker, he holds the knife in a normal grip and slashes horizontally from right to left, then back to the right. Initially the attacks are big and originate from outside of the body around 60 degrees to either side, not huge swings, but large controlled slashes.

As we progress the attacker will shorten the slash so that it originates within his body space and only travels around 20 degrees. Imagine a rectangular box with sides going from his shoulders and the length equal to his reach, and height from his knees to the top of his head. All attacks should occur within that box, so that they are quick, controlled and never over-extended. Ultimately the knife can be reversed into a backhanded grip and the free hand used to counter, parry, deflect, trap and grab or off-balance.

The defender learns to make distance by moving in until he is inside the arc of the attack. As the knife comes from right to left, he steps in and using his left hand swipes at the eyes of the attacker, following through until his upper arm contacts the forearm of the attacker. He immediately snakes his arm around the attackers to control the weapon, whilst simultaneously striking with his right hand, elbow or knees depending on target, balance and momentum.

The aim is to extend the attacker so that you control his balance, his shoulders should be in a position that pushes his left arm away from you, making it hard for him to strike.

On the reverse slash (left to right) perform the opposite motion, step in deflect, block and trap with the right arm and unbalance with the left by pulling his head backwards.

As speed increases the defender must be aware of how important it is to control the weapon arm as high as possible. But there are dangers, too close to the knife and it is easy for the attacker to pull back and cut into the tendons and nerves in the armpit, too close to the shoulder and the attacker can bend his arm and either cut, stab or transfer the knife to his other hand.

Once the defender becomes used to timing and moving in, the attacker can start feinting and rapidly reversing the direction of attack. This ensures that the defender is moving with balance from the hips, he needs to create a pause so that he can get in, this could be a low kick, a strike to the knife arm, a shout or whatever.

The aim though is control, get in close (inside the arc of attack) and finish quickly.

Once this drill is completed satisfactorarily you add diagonal slashes, low slashes, vertical slashes and so on. After slashes you add thrusts, this is where moving from the hips with balance becomes important. Many people bend forward from the waist when they try to move fast, it is extremely easy to change knife direction; a thrust can become a rising stab or slash, very easily and are almost impossible to differentiate. When you move, you must move from the hips this keeps your body aligned and allows you to make the same motion wether the attack is rising, dropping or straight. You must also keep your arms close to your body where they offer protection to your trunk and neck, but aren't targets themselves.

Once these drills are completed you look at tactics, actual techniques to subdue the attacker, appropriate response, etc. Ultimately of course, what we end up with is almost free fighting, throw in uneven ground, poor light, restrictive clothing and you have a very realistic training method.

The key things I look for in any situation are balance, economy of movement and weapon control.


On traditional Tantojutsu, it must be remembered that it was developed for use in armour, and for that it is very effective. Today in military combatives under certain circumstances it is more effective than the open slashing of the Philippino styles, as modern bodyarmour has the same weaknesses as traditional armour. Most bulletproof vests are not knife proof, slash vests are not stab proof and so on, but they all require more power to penetrate. The attacker must commit more to get that power, so the attacks and defenses do resemble traditional Japanese styles.

All situations are different, there is NO one style that covers all eventualities perfectly, I still find traditional Japanese arts beneficial, and often when I'm fighting with experienced Arnis practicioners I can suprise them with something from Japan, the reverse is certainly true as well! :D

Regards

Neil

Brently Keen
9th January 2001, 05:25
The drills I practice are specifically derived from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, and probably don't make very much sense to most people, nor do they work without a strong base in Daito-ryu aiki. Unfortunately, there is very little Roppokai knife work available on video. Only a few self-defense techniques on some seminar tapes, and no knife to knife. But I've found some Daito-ryu Roppokai techniques and strategies to be very effective against a variety of modern knife styles.

A few years ago I met and trained briefly with Vincent Cabales (who is the best Philipino stylist I've ever met) he expressed strong agreement with some of some of what he saw me doing, and several of his students were quite intrigued.

For another very good Japanese tanto-jutsu perspective check out Don Angier's Tanto-jitsu tape available from Bugei Trading Co. The tape includes quite a few interesting kata. I've worked with Don quite a few times over the years and can attest that he can make all his stuff work.

James Williams of Bugei also a long time student of Don has some very good knife-stuff. I can't even touch him! He has a strong background in Arnis as well as Yanagi-ryu and he seems to agressively blend elements of both into a soft but powerful style, strongly based on Yanagi-ryu principles. The only tape that I'm aware of that he has out though is basically just a seminar with some Navy Seals that covers just very basic stuff. Hardly the tip of the iceberg of what he has to offer.

I've also had the pleasure of meeting and training with Uncle Bill (Kun Tao Silat). He's amazing too. His knife work is also based on real life experience. Some of his techniques appear deceptively basic, stripped down to the essentials, but his timing is so unbelievably good it's scary. He's got a number of videos floating around.

I prefer to share the actual practice methods that I use in person, so I'll refrain from describing them in detail here, except to explain some basic concepts, behind those methods.

In aikijujutsu I would say that emphasis is not on blocking, trapping, and parrying nearly as much as as it is on disrupting the balance of the opponent (kuzushi). In Daito-ryu this is accomplished with aiki. The breath is very important. Obviously your tai-sabaki (as in all martial arts), must emphasize controlled timing, distance, and precise positioning when dealing with edged weapons.

Although, many tanto techniques in Daito-ryu jujutsu (like other Japanese koryu), were likely developed originally for use on the battlefield by bushi wearing armor, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu though was developed as a gotenjutsu, and came to becalled oshikiuchi (inside the palace art) and obviously includes techniques and strategies for that context.

It is a fundamental principle of Daito-ryu to remain flexible enough to use whatever strategy is most appropriate for the situation. Naturally, it is imperative to take advantage of either committed thrusting attacks or in and out slashing attacks, and whatever the context take the appropriate coarse of action. Learning to naturally intuit which strategies and actions are most appropriate for various situations is the purpose of training.

Just my two cents,

Brently Keen

Sean Mulligan
11th January 2001, 17:26
Through Blauer Tactical Systems and the Personal Defense Readiness program, we use several drills to reinforce what we refer too as the Three C's, Clear the body, Control the blade and Counter-attack, as well as a holistic awareness to a realistic knife attack. Firstly, we identify that a realistic attack is usually spontaneous from a concealed postion and that the individual protecting themselves will flich to avoid the path of the blade and build on that platform. If an individual produces a knife and begin to verbalize his/her intentions, then the officer has an opportunity to prepare and in most cases select a viable force option.

The first drill is called "Night of the living dead" One person produces a knife from a concealed position and begins to slash and stabs at the other at 1/3 speed, while the other avoids the blade by clearing their body. You continue back and forth replicating a realistic attack at the slower speed to identify how the body naturally reacts to the stimulus.

I'll return later to describe two additional drills.

Sean

Sean Mulligan
11th January 2001, 20:19
The second drill is described as "The Manson Knife Drill." How this works is that the person running the drill instructs the subject armed with the knife to slash or stab the other party a certain amount of times, without the recipients knowledge. The recipient then applies the above three C's untill they are either severely wounded or has controlled the attack successfully. During this drill it is essential to inform the attacker continue until the've reached the indicated number and that the recipient continues even if they recieve a minor wound. This exercise replicates the "Rage Attack" and not only provides the students with the physical skills but establishes an emotional arsenal to continue defending yourself unitll the threat is diminished.

The third and final is used to develop the "Grip from Hell" as well as your behaviour arsenal. One subject stands in a natural position with their eyes closed while the other positions the blade or blade tip against the body of the one with the eyes closed. Have them mix up the targets on the body to identify any perceivable attack. When the blade is in position, the one student opens their eyes and fiegns fear positioning their hand in close proximity to the blade replicating a realistic behaviour response to the stimulus. The individual holding the blade will allow the other student to do this if the behaviour is REAL. Once this is done, the stident feigning fear identifies the realistic 'cut' from the position that the blade is positioned and grabs the hand of the operator securing the blade in such a manner that the 'cut' can not be made and the blade can not be passed off to the other open hand. From here the student brandishing the knife attempts to pull it away as the defender moves with the pull maintaining control of the blade. If they have an effective grip, the attacker should not be able to cut, pass the blade or pull it away from the defender.

The drills mentioned are described in better detail on Tony Blauer's "Controlling the Blade" video which also provides a visual demonstration to assist in developing these skills. If you feel inclined try them out for yourself and let me know what you think.

Sean