Aikido confusion

[budostudent2007]

I'm wondering if anyone out there can help me in deciding, first, whether I should begin a new art and, second, what I should choose. I currently practice Aikido (Aikikai), enjoy it very much, but am concerned about its street validity, at least at my level. I mean, I understand the concepts (using the motion of ukes center to take him off balance, thereby opening doors to a number of techniques), but I think it takes alot of time and practice before one can effectively use Aikido in the street (at least today's streets). I've been looking into Hapkido and Goshindo; I'm most interested in Goshindo, currently. I've also thought about Kempo, but mainly as a supplement to my Aikido practice. In fact, any new style I decide to begin will be a supplement to Aikido. Aikido is where I began. I enjoy it very much, especially its defensive philosophy.

Any suggestions?

[Ron Tisdale]

If you are relatively young, I would suggest staying away from cooperative arts, and find an art where there is full out resistance. Judo randori, bjj rolling, colligiate wrestling, boxing, something like that. It will give you a very different perspective, and what you learn will be quickly usable.

I'd also suggest finding a teacher for what some call "internal skills"...but that can be very difficult (in terms of finding a good instructor) and somewhat problematic.

Best,
Ron

[chrismoses]

Personally I think judo works extremely well with aikido. It will offer you a chance to train with a lot more resistance than most aikido schools will ever see. For some interesting views on judo and aikido, check out some of Tomiki Sensei's writings (available online). Principles of aikido can influence good judo, and lessons learned in judo (namely kuzushi and how hard it is to really throw someone) can carry over into ones aikido. I wish I'd done more judo early on in my training, I feel I've been playing catch-up for a long time now.

[Tim Mailloux]

I agree with everything Ron & Chris said. I did aikido for 10 years and took up judo last year. Judo will really open your eyes up if your coming from aikido. After 4 months of trainig both I gave up on the aikido. In just that short amount of time trainig with resistive partners (in judo) I was able to throw virtually anyone on the aikido dojo with ease. I also agree with Ron on the internal stuff, but good luck finding a teacher. Many claim to know it, but not too many can really do the stuff.

Ron,
Sorry I didn't get a chance to chat with you this past Saturday up in here in MA doing the 'internal stuff'. I was so pre-occupied with training that I didn't put your name and E-budo together until after I had already left. The next you are heading up here to train send me a PM and I will make sure I am there as well.

[budostudent2007]

Thanks guys, your insight is very helpful. I've been practicing Aikido for 4 years now. As earlier stated, I really enjoy it, especially the "non-combative" philosophy. It's also relaxing, I enjoy the personal growth, and it's aesthetically pleasing. However, if I run into trouble on the streets, I'd like to feel confident about my ability. I know Aikido can offer that, but after many more years of practice. I'll look into Judo. Maybe a combination of Yoshinkan Aikido and Judo could create a formidable defender; what do you guys think?


Thanks

[chrismoses]

However, if I run into trouble on the streets, I'd like to feel confident about my ability.

You might also look into some general 'self defense' type classes. These aren't just for women (a common misconception). There are a few no-nonsense things that can be learned from a good teacher that will improve anyone's 'street' skills. One thing that judo doesn't do well is deal with striking, so if that's something you'd like to know more about, you might look into some Chinese boxing, Systema, or (if available in your area) Shorinji kempo. The little bit I've seen of SK offers some very compatible striking methods to aikido's kansetsu/nagewaza.

[Ron Tisdale]

Ditto! I started to wonder when he had you trying judo throws...I remembered when you made the move to judo. I was kicking myself for six hours on the way home! Oh, wait...maybe that was Murray I was kicking...nope, he'd have kicked me back! :D

B,
R

I agree with everything Ron & Chris said. I did aikido for 10 years and took up judo last year. Judo will really open your eyes up if your coming from aikido. After 4 months of trainig both I gave up on the aikido. In just that short amount of time trainig with resistive partners (in judo) I was able to throw virtually anyone on the aikido dojo with ease. I also agree with Ron on the internal stuff, but good luck finding a teacher. Many claim to know it, but not too many can really do the stuff.

Ron,
Sorry I didn't get a chance to chat with you this past Saturday up in here in MA doing the 'internal stuff'. I was so pre-occupied with training that I didn't put your name and E-budo together until after I had already left. The next you are heading up here to train send me a PM and I will make sure I am there as well.

[Ron Tisdale]

Maybe a combination of Yoshinkan Aikido and Judo could create a formidable defender; what do you guys think?
Thanks
There's a guy named Boon who posts on aikiweb who does just that...he was doing yoshinkan aikido and now is doing judo fulltime I think. Pop by www.aikiweb.com, ask for Boon, and tell him Ron sentcha...

B,
R

[Jieze]

(RTLFC)

I've always seen the problem with Aikido's lack of usefulness in what you refer to as 'real-life' situations. However, I must digress that not all Aikido techniques are made for 'real-life' and that the problem with the techniques that can be applied to 'real-life' lies with the lack of confidence placed in them by the Aikidoka.

On the other hand, taking an Aikido technique and adapting it can be effective. Recently, I was grabbed by the shirt by a person at school, who proceeded to threaten me. It wasn't violence-orientated, but I managed to perform a crude but effective Kote gaeshi. Sure we were not in the correct stances and sure, it's not on the syallabus, but the point is it worked.

And in 'real-life' situations, here reffering to life or death situations, that's all that matters.

[drmarc]

Jieze wrote: I've always seen the problem with Aikido's lack of usefulness in what you refer to as 'real-life' situations. However, I must digress that not all Aikido techniques are made for 'real-life' and that the problem with the techniques that can be applied to 'real-life' lies with the lack of confidence placed in them by the Aikidoka.


I respectfully disagree with those statements. I would hopefully attribute them to a lack of sufficient training and experience in Aikido or another Aiki/internal energy based martial art. I think that one of the major problems is not the art itself, but a problem in the teaching of the art. It is my understanding from my teacher (Imaizumi Sensei) and in discussions with other people who trained with O'Sensei that the codification of techniques came from O'Sensei's students and that O'Sensei's teaching focused a lot on principles. Techniques are applications of these principles. Many students appear to get "lost" in the notion that they are principally learning techniques, as opposed to learning the true understanding of the principles.

Many people appear to "hit a wall" when they cannot begin to transcend the techniques and begin to view them as means by which they can grasp the underlying principles of the art. They then believe that there are "weaknesses" in the art that can only be filled in by more brutal/forceful manners of responding to threats. I would not argue that the successful learning of internal/aiki arts takes longer than other arts. I also wonder if that is a function of our teaching methodology. Anybody who reads george Ledyard sensei's writings will see that he, and others are actively addressing the teaching methodologies. He, like myself, have looked at similar arts and teachers of other arts (systema, Koroda Sensei, Ushiro Sensei, Williams Sensei, Threadgill Sensei, etc) who have found ways to teach and apply their arts in a manner akin to what we are trying to accomplish through our training in Aikido. I have found that by taking advantage of every training opportunity that I can with those remarkable teachers, the better I am able to understand and utilize the principles of Aikido.

I do not believe that the answer is trying to fill in holes in our understanding of Aikido by training in Judo or other sports and harder arts. Training in self-defense has less to do with a particular art and more to do with learning situational awareness, proper utilization of tools, and KISS acts of brutality so as to be able to learn to hopefully be successful in defending one's self after a relatively short period of training (of course the learning curve applies- The farther the distance of time from the last practice, the less likely the person will be to effectively utilize teachings).

I do not deny that my background in harder arts and wrestling gave me a good foundation in which to begin to learn Aikido. My "unlearning curve" was enormous and I am only recently begun to find a manner in which to take the old learnings and have them fit within the paradigms and principles of Aikido. Luckily for me, I not encountered problems defending myself. My old "self" used the brutal methods of past learning. My new and developing self has been able to utilize Aiki principles in an efficient and effective manner when needed.

marc abrams

[Jieze]

After reading your words, I've rethought my stance on Aikido's effectiveness.

I thank you for taking the time to type them out and for not being rude or too outspoken.

[drmarc]

Steve:

Being rude accomplishes nothing. Being too outspoken would be to assume more knowledge and skill than I have. I think I know where you are in your training. It is a very frustrating place to be. Around 5-6 years ago I approached my teacher with my frustrations and asked what I should do to address wanting to "move to another level" in my training. I received what I thought was an obscure answer. He said to practice Ikkyo Undo. The message that he was giving me was to move beyond technique and focus in on the principles that allow the techniques to emerge. My private practice typically includes breathing exercises, basic movement exercises (ki exercises). I am now learning how to "walk" all over again thanks to the teaching of a person outside of Aikido (still aiki based art). My techniques are improving in ways that I never could have imagined. I see myself as growing into the potential of the art. I do not feel the need to look outside of the art to fill in for my inadequate understandings and applications of the art.

Good luck on this part of your journey. It is hard!

marc abrams

[Aozora]

Dr. Abrams, I'm right where you were five years or so ago. After training with Chuck Clark sensei over the summer for the first time, I realized how stagnant my aikido had become. I started judo at the same time as Aikido, so I had a pretty good idea about effectiveness, etc, but these past six months have been truly internalizing the principles and seeing how they applied to all. A small amount of cross trainign in tai chi and hsing i chuan also helped me gain persective in movement paradigms that were universal and really opened me up to me a lot more fleixble in the techniques I've learned over the last nine years or so.

[kinopah]

I respectfully disagree with those statements...

this was one of the most well-executed posts i've read in a good while, on any manner of forum.

i also started in "hard arts" before beginning aikido 7 years ago. the innate understanding of what it means to hit and be hit is invaluable, but the efficacy of aikido, both as a means of defense and as a means of avoiding the NEED for defense cannot be overstated. i'm of the opinion that if you're overly concerned with an art's street-credibility, you're probably more likely to end up needing it on the street. in any case, i really do feel that aikido's ability to blend with and move inside an attack make it extremely valuable. like anything, it's about how you're taught, and how you train.

[budostudent2007]

Thank you all for your invaluable insight. Though I'm still unsure of what I'll do from this point, I feel better knowing that many others have been here before me. Of particular profundity were Dr Marc's remarks regarding focusing on the principles of the techniques, rather than the techniques themselves. That is something I'd thought about before (always finding ways to affect ukes center rather than the arm or leg), but have always been concerned about speed, as the techniques that affect the center seem to take a little longer. I am also appreciative of your input because I feel inspired to continue Aikido training. I've never practiced any other martial art. I was in the Marine Corps for four years, during which time I was required to learn "line training," a system consisting of techniques from an array of differing styles. I enjoyed the training, but we rarely practiced. The Marine Corps' line of thought is "since we're armed, if anyone ever gets close enough for hand-to-hand combat, you're gonna die anyway." Exhaustive firearms training, very little martial arts kind of training. Anyway, I constantly hear other students talk about how they have trained in other styles, and how they can really appreciate Aikido principles because of their former practice. I completely empathize with those people, but have no real understanding of where they're coming from. Those people likely know what it means to get caught in the path of the lightning fast fists of fury. Because of my Aikido training, and a little bit of common sense, I know it's best to get out of the way and let that energy dissipate while they punch at air. However, what if I'm in a situation where space is confined? Additionally, I understand the value of constant movement (e.g., punches and kicks are, essentially, designed for a target that is stationary at some given point in time). Again, with confined spaces and, consequently, limited movement, what's an Aikidoka to do? These kinds of questions have led me to seek supplementary training outside of Aikido. If any of you have answers to these questions that are within the realm of Aikido training, I would love to hear them.

As always, I greatly appreciate your comments.

[Brian Owens]

...Because of my Aikido training, and a little bit of common sense, I know it's best to get out of the way and let that energy dissipate while they punch at air. However, what if I'm in a situation where space is confined? Additionally, I understand the value of constant movement (e.g., punches and kicks are, essentially, designed for a target that is stationary at some given point in time). Again, with confined spaces and, consequently, limited movement, what's an Aikidoka to do?
Best to limit the power of the opponent's punches and kicks by adjusting distance; either further away or closer.

In confined spaces, move in close so the punch or kick has no room for extension. Remember your entering and turning methods, and your joint manipulations.

That is to say, the basic principles.

HTH.

[budostudent2007]

I wanted to get you guys' opinion about the art styles I've been considering as supplementary to my Aikido training: Shorinji Kempo; Goshindo; Wing Chun Kung Fu. I've been particularly interested in Wing Chun Kung Fu. Also, if I began to practice any one of these arts, do you think it would interfere with my Aikido development? If so, which one would do so least?

Thank you for your input.

[Rob Gassin]

James,

Doing another MA will have both +ve and -ve effects on your Aikido. No one can foretell what the overall effect will be. My advice is that you attend your local Wing Chung, Goshindo, Shorinji Kempo, and why not, Hapkido class, twice each and see which, if any, you feel most comfortable with.

Cheers,

[drmarc]

James:

There is a famous saying: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Just because you allow the force to dissipate, does not mean that you should create enough distance for strike #2!

This art appears to have developed from sword arts. If you can an awareness of this in mind, it might help translate into a better understanding of some of the principles. One of the most important principle is to always control the center line. From a practical perspective, it is the shortest distance from point A to point B. At a deeper level, it goes to the heart of the realization that the brain sees, NOT the eyes. The center line is the meeting place between the two "screens in the brain." Put a finger in front of your face, directly in front of your nose and you will see two fingers. Put that finger down by your groin and draw an imaginary line up to that level of the nose. You will see that your brain is slower and tracking that line than anywhere else within the visual range. The more advanced levels of martial arts are achieved when we can enter into an attack (confined space situations- at a minimum). By controlling the center line, you can enter into an attack in a manner that you occupy the space first, and the attacker "impales" him/herself upon your entering move.

I am just touching the "tip" of this principle, but it should give you enough to work on. As to speed, I always emphasize that a technique that works in slow motion (regardless of the speed of the attack) will then work at high speeds. Most people practice too fast and cannot feel what is happening, thereby increasing the likelihood of the person missing the "essence of Aiki" and covering up mistakes. I tell students to work at a speed with which they can maintain the "feeling" of the technique throughout the process. They should alter speeds in order to find where their limits are, in order to focus on where we are "straying from the path" of the principles.

marc abrams

[budostudent2007]

Dr Marc,

Excellent advice, again. Thank you very much for your insight. I will certainly work on the principles you've discussed before making any decisions about other arts.

Thanks.

[john_lord_b3]

I wanted to get you guys' opinion about the art styles I've been considering as supplementary to my Aikido training: Shorinji Kempo; Goshindo; Wing Chun Kung Fu. I've been particularly interested in Wing Chun Kung Fu. Also, if I began to practice any one of these arts, do you think it would interfere with my Aikido development? If so, which one would do so least?

Thank you for your input.

I don't practice Aikido or ShorinjiKempo, but I've seen enough of both, so I noticed that they have techniques which are "similar but done very differently". I think the existence of such techniques (similar but different) has potentials of confusing your body and mind. It's much better to practice an art which has mostly different techniques, such as Aikido and Judo, Aikido and Brazilian Jiujitsu, Aikido and Kendo, Aikido and Wingchun Kungfu, etc. I recommend Judo or Brazilian Jiujitsu because both arts teaches formal groundfighting techniques, which is a nice complement for Aikido's suwari waza and hanmi-hantachiwaza.

Off course, there are some genius people who could learn several martial arts simultaneously without confusing their own body and mind. But for normal people, it's better to take different arts simultaneously. Or, take one art very seriously to develop a good base, (i.e Sandan level) before train in another art.

Hope this is useful, if it isn't, feel free to disregard it all :)

[Amir]

I agree with everything Ron & Chris said. I did aikido for 10 years and took up judo last year. Judo will really open your eyes up if your coming from aikido. After 4 months of training both I gave up on the aikido. In just that short amount of time training with resistive partners (in judo) I was able to throw virtually anyone on the aikido dojo with ease. I also agree with Ron on the internal stuff, but good luck finding a teacher. Many claim to know it, but not too many can really do the stuff.


Seems every person sees different things or possibly, different teachers /styles are so different at times:
A co-worker recently decided to join our Korindo Aikido group. He has not practiced M.A. for some 10 years but has practiced Judo since being a child until the age of 20 or so. In a very competitive environment.
The funny thing is, as we commute back home after each practice. He keeps telling me how much Aikido is more suited to S.D. then Judo is. And that he can feel the practicality of the things we learn. He says those things even though, obviously, as a beginner, he only learned the very basic and prolonged variations of the techniques.

Further, in our group we have had several Judo students of my Sensei (he is also certified in Judo and had a group up until shortly). I have always found their ability to throw me was in direct proportion to their own ability, e.g. talent, time-practicing, etc. Students who started Judo did not suddenly find a jump in their ability.


I could try and find multiple reasons for this differences in perspective:
- Style: Korindo Aikido is considered to be a smaller movement and high practicality Aikido style.
- Style Curriculum: We have “free play” Randori which is rather similar to the Judo Randori as one of the pillars of the Curriculum in Korindo Aikido.
- Israeli nature: Most Israelis I have seen keeps trying to find the flaws in the techniques first, and learn correct application later :-/ In order of letting the beginners learn in a non resistance way, we very often have to put them with the veteran students. Beginners also tend to mistake the Randori to be a fighting simulation exercise rather then a sensitivity, movement and harmony learning method.
- Teacher preferences – My teacher places a lot of emphasis on S.D. hence we practice a lot in punches situations. As previously hinted – he learned several M.A. (Korindo Aikido, Judo and Karate) and considers all to be MARTIAL-arts.
- Teaching methodology – My teacher makes sure we understand the reasons for each movement and the martial implications of various technical variations. Thus one has to learn the provincials and the techniques derivation depending on situation.



That is something I'd thought about before (always finding ways to affect ukes center rather than the arm or leg), but have always been concerned about speed, as the techniques that affect the center seem to take a little longer.

If you wish to learn the principles and learn to be efficient, one method is to practice very slowly and examine the situation on a constant basis. Learning to apply the technique correctly is more important then speed. Then you should work on timing (being on time is again much more important then speed).



However, what if I'm in a situation where space is confined? Additionally, I understand the value of constant movement (e.g., punches and kicks are, essentially, designed for a target that is stationary at some given point in time). Again, with confined spaces and, consequently, limited movement, what's an Aikidoka to do?

Realistic movements are small in any case, even if the space is not confined. Almost any attacker will easily track you if you make large moves. At least in Korindo the movement is very small, just out of the line of attack, keeping yourself close to the attacker and in a controlling position (unless of course you take the line first).

Large movement are the correct methodical way of teaching beginners. But if you think you could move like that in a realistic situation, you delude yourself. Your attacker will realize the situation and change is attack to a second strike (punch/ kick) very fast, you must not give him the place nor time to do this, and ideally (at the super high level) the Aikidoka should actually control the attack since the moment of concise intent and possibly even slightly before that (“inviting” a particular attack).

And you should not forget that Aikido has never limited the number of techniques not their type. You can utilize Aikido by tai-sabaki just out of your attacker line of attack and then grab his b@!!s and throat while striking and throw him on some wall.

Amir

[MarkF]

Mr. James Smith:

I am not an aikidoka, but you live in Washington, specifically Seattle, where Judo in the US began in the 1900s. I have been involved for over forty years. Seattle also has many fine judo dojo.

You may want to check out "Seattle dojo" which was the first dojo outside of Japan set up There. The last time I was there, classes were held twice a week, Monday and Thursday evenings, at least they were in 2002. The dojo is today owned by a Buddhist temple, the name escapes me but those in Seattle know exactly where it is and may give you contact information. Or check the phone book/dexOnline for them. My seniors have either retired or passed on but left well-qualified teachers. Some do teach atemi, some do not, but whether or not you like competition, the experience is worth having once you qualify (It does not take long). Randori is the heart of judo and the majority of judo dojo do teach kata as well.

That is not the only judo dojo by mean means. Another dojo you should check out is one owned and operated by Aaron Fields (he posts on E-budo and his latest screen name is Aaron T, I believe. It used to be called (and may well still be), '"Seattle Jujutsu dojo." Don't let the name fool you, Aaron is a fine person and well-trained judoka, but does offer Yabe Ryu Jujutsu and even Sambo.

There are so many I recommend there you shouldn't have a problem finding what you seek in judo. Go watch classes then talk to the chief instructor.'

Anyway, you had asked earlier in the judo forum or gendai budo forums, but I did not respond. My apologies but I thought friends of mine in Seattle I know may have more information.

The worst thing that will happen is you will learn another style of ukemi and may even find the way to kuzushi/tsukuri. Elusive yes, but not impossible considering your aikido background.

Best of luck,

Mark

[chrismoses]

Another dojo you should check out is one owned and operated by Aaron Fields (he posts on E-budo and his latest screen name is Aaron T, I believe. It used to be called (and may well still be), '"Seattle Jujutsu dojo." Don't let the name fool you, Aaron is a fine person and well-trained judoka, but does offer Yabe Ryu Jujutsu and even Sambo.



I didn't realize you were in Seattle. Aaron's a great teacher and runs a great group of guys. They train HARD, but in a very productive manner. Really solid skills. Worth checking out, just be sure to bring a strong gi and your humble pie. :)

[Brian Owens]

...You may want to check out "Seattle dojo" which was the first dojo outside of Japan set up There. The last time I was there, classes were held twice a week, Monday and Thursday evenings, at least they were in 2002. The dojo is today owned by a Buddhist temple, the name escapes me but those in Seattle know exactly where it is and may give you contact information.
Yes, classes are still Monday and Thursday nights, from 7 - 10 PM.

Seattle Dojo is in an unasumming little gray-clapboard building across the park from the big Seattle Buddhist Church, and right next door to a smaller Buddhist church (Nichiren?).

It's up the hill from China Town, two blocks north of Jackson. Here's the contact info:

Seattle Dojo
1510 S. Washington St.
Seattle, WA 98144
(206) 324-7080

HTH.

[Neil Yamamoto]

www.seattledojo.org

I spent a lot of time in the Seattle dojo, back when the Washington Aikikai was working out of there in the 1970's. The temple next door to Seattle Dojo is Shingon, the larger Buddhist temple on 14th and Main is Jodo Shinshu. Classes have been Mon-Thurs since before I was born.

Seattle Budokan is just down the block on 14th and Weller.
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/pool/1165

Lot's of good judo in Seattle. Another thumbs up for Aaron's place too. Here's the website for Seattle jujutsu
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

If you want good judo on the eastside of Lake Washington, check out Bob Wittauer, another very good judoka.
www.emeraldcityjudo.com

[Joseph Svinth]

I suppose I should go in and properly Wikify the notes, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Dojo is getting better.

As for the notes, I find it astonishing that whenever I enter anything at Wikipedia, massively more footnoting is required than when anyone else enters anything...

[Sakumeikan]

Dear Tim,
I have read your article on Judo /Aikido.Unless you are a rather fast learner or your former aikido partners are lacking in skills I think you would be hard pushed to throw your aikido guys around easily[as you imply ]after only four months training.
In my experience of both arts, over a forty+years of study I can state categorically that a student of four months hardly scratches the surface of Judo.
I also state that both systems are not compatible.Rather than continuing the debate about which art is the better I think that each student should study and practise diligently to learn more than just techniques.Both Kano Sensei and O Sensei left a legacy which transcended mere technical skills/waza.
My teacher , Chiba Sensei, states that there are two types of Aikido, big & small.'Small' aikido is what we do in the dojo.'Big ' is what we do in our outside everyday lives.Rather than spend time polishing our 'Fighting skills' should we not strive to develop our 'other' skills?
In this day and age when nations can destroy the world by pressing a button, what is needed is more understanding of our role/place on this planet.
I believe that by sincere , dedicated study of any martial art [with a moral and spiritual heritage] can be of value in this period .
The ways of the samurai are long gone , but there is no reason why some of the concepts /values that are inherent in the past cannot be utilised to better use.
Thank you,
Joe Curran

[chrismoses]

Dear Tim,
I have read your article on Judo /Aikido.Unless you are a rather fast learner or your former aikido partners are lacking in skills I think you would be hard pushed to throw your aikido guys around easily[as you imply ]after only four months training.


You don't think that just maybe someone with 10 years of Aikido experience might pick up judo a bit quicker than someone off the street? Judo generally offers a level of resistance not found in Aikido. For some interesting thoughts on Aikido, jujutsu and judo I suggest Kenji Tomiki's writings. (http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm)

[Tim Mailloux]

You don't think that just maybe someone with 10 years of Aikido experience might pick up judo a bit quicker than someone off the street? Judo generally offers a level of resistance not found in Aikido. For some interesting thoughts on Aikido, jujutsu and judo I suggest Kenji Tomiki's writings. (http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm)


Joe,
I think Chriis hit the nail on the head.

IMO if you take anyone with a solid base in a martisl art, say 10 years of serious aikido training. Give that person 4 months traning in a new style that centers around randori and resistive practice, (Judo, BJJ, ect..) they will be able to walk right through most aikidoka who have only done the typical cooprative aikido practice. I have seen 17 and 18 year old highschool wrestlers man handle 30 year ni-dans and san-dans.

Now don't get me wrong, I think aikido techniques are great, Its just the way they are practiced that makes most aikidoka uneffective against a trained opponent.

FWIW, I also trained in Chiba's line.

[Sakumeikan]

Hi Tim, Chris moses,
Certainly an Aikidoka would be able to make slightly quicker progression i n Judo over the same time scale as a non trained person in the same period..What I disagreed with Tim on was his assertion that after four months training he could wipe the floor with his ex partners.Tim might well be the exception here but generally speaking I consider his statement flawed.
As far a Tomiki Sensei book /methods are concerned I have studied these years ago.Tomiki Sensei was a judoka primarily and he used his Aikido acquired skills to formulate a systemised method of competitive Aikido.This is Tomiki aikido.It has randori, with a points system.The system runs contrary to the O Sensei model of non competiveness.I am not being judgemental here just stating facts.
As far as the 17years old wrestlers are concerned messing the Aikido nidan around, it depends on various factors eg size, who's game are the combatants playing ie wrestling or aikido?etc.
However I think you failed to grasp the main thrust of my article-namely that both these arts offered /offers mankind something more than just the physical waza.Let us not allow these noble arts to degenerate into a simple free for all brawl.
I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Best Regards, Joe.

[No1'sShowMonkey]

Earlier posters are dead on with several points.

Mr. Smith, if you are concerned with street effectiveness you will find a more brutal and straight forward martial art to generally satisfy your needs. Judo and jujutsu-ka love it when an opponent is close. Confined spaces, tight quarters and clinches are the bread and butter of most grappling arts. Kempo and other primarily striking arts also offer very straightforward and brutal answers to confrontation. When I studied kempo-jujutsu we had four major targets: the eyes, throat, groin and knees. We were animals fighting like animals. Aikido, however, is something different in most forms.

Mr. Curran is entirely correct that Aikido's teachings include in their curriculum the moral and intellectual improvement of students. Explosive and deadly violence is still a relatively regular occurance, but outside of dangerous situations (bar fights, dark allies late at night etc) the modern world is a rather safe place. Aikido seems to understand this development away from a weapons based environment where death walked in your shadow to a more docile and progressive period.

That said, Aikido has the most martial of roots and it shows in the technique. The man I studied aikido under was a ferocious fighter and though his technique was incredible, fluid and tranquil, it was menacing, fast and projected the most serious sense of danger and deadliness. In my experience it is not difficult to recognize a sensei's raw combative prowess. You can see the vitality, the incredible command and raw effectiveness in their effecient motions. They can and will hold your life in their hands.

Personally I come from a background of goshin ryu jujutsu and trained a period in aikido. It was some of the most cultivating martial practice that I have ever experienced. However, this is directly a result of my being a jujutsuka first and foremost and being able to interpret everything through the lense of effectiveness and simplicity that jujutsu has. Aikido broke down the principles of fighting and trained me further in said principles, but I still had the tools that jujutsu had given me as a base. Aikido simply honed their edges, so to speak.

As for what kind of art you wish to train in as well as Aikido? Well, Aikido is primarily a grappling / throwing art and relies on entering and gaining a hold of your opponent to effect a throws or other methods of control. It would be very helpful to train in a striking style that will educate you on what goes on before the clinch is achieved that when outside the grabbing range you are not left unequipped. Training in judo, goshindo, hapkido or the like concurrent with your aikido training may prove difficult and confusing, you may find yourself torn between the initially rewarding effectiveness of the three mentioned arts and pushed away from the more intellectual / ethereal practices of aikido. Setting yourself upon yourself like that may prove to be a fertile ground for self improvement, or it could be your undoing in both your patron arts.

When choosing an aikido dojo, or any dojo at all really, be very sure to visit and see (or even participate in if possible) the classes. You will find some that are more like social clubs, others that are something of a military barracks, and everything in between. The questions that you will need answered are only ones you can answer having been there and felt the atmosphere.

Most aikido that I have seen, the great majority, are far too 'intellectual' (I am trying to find a term that is not negative...) for my tastes. Practice seems more an organized dance, that the uke recieves a nice letterhead on beautiful stationary inviting him to take a comfy fall if he, you know, feels like it (RSVP, please! I need to order sandwiches for the ukemi party!). The co-operative training is useful in cultivating some skills, but atrophies others. It takes all kinds, but it simply is not my taste. There are always exceptions, and some aikido that I have seen and experienced is every bit a martial art.

Be very sure you know what you are looking for. As Mr. Gassin suggested, simply visiting all of the dojos will do a great deal to inform your decision making.

Good luck.

- Chris McGaw

[Tim Mailloux]

Hi Tim, Chris moses,
Certainly an Aikidoka would be able to make slightly quicker progression i n Judo over the same time scale as a non trained person in the same period..What I disagreed with Tim on was his assertion that after four months training he could wipe the floor with his ex partners.Tim might well be the exception here but generally speaking I consider his statement flawed.
As far a Tomiki Sensei book /methods are concerned I have studied these years ago.Tomiki Sensei was a judoka primarily and he used his Aikido acquired skills to formulate a systemised method of competitive Aikido.This is Tomiki aikido.It has randori, with a points system.The system runs contrary to the O Sensei model of non competiveness.I am not being judgemental here just stating facts.
As far as the 17years old wrestlers are concerned messing the Aikido nidan around, it depends on various factors eg size, who's game are the combatants playing ie wrestling or aikido?etc.
However I think you failed to grasp the main thrust of my article-namely that both these arts offered /offers mankind something more than just the physical waza.Let us not allow these noble arts to degenerate into a simple free for all brawl.
I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Best Regards, Joe.

Joe,
I am not going to get into some flame war here. You don't belive me and that is fine, my ego is alright with that. Just to add to things, recently I also began training with Dan Harden learning internal skills. If you though I had a low opinoin of aikido based on my cross training in judo, don't ask me what I think now. If you want to talk about this more via PM I would be more than glad to give you specific examples.

Tim

[Tim Mailloux]

Earlier posters are dead on with several points.

Most aikido that I have seen, the great majority, are far too 'intellectual' (I am trying to find a term that is not negative...) for my tastes. Practice seems more an organized dance, that the uke recieves a nice letterhead on beautiful stationary inviting him to take a comfy fall if he, you know, feels like it (RSVP, please! I need to order sandwiches for the ukemi party!). The co-operative training is useful in cultivating some skills, but atrophies others. It takes all kinds, but it simply is not my taste. There are always exceptions, and some aikido that I have seen and experienced is every bit a martial art.


- Chris McGaw

I would definatly agree 100%. When my friends in aikido ask me the biggest differnece between judo and aikido I tell them this:

In aikido you take ukemi, In judo ukemi happens to you.

I would also add that the resistive training in judo developes powerful core streght that somone who trains cooperitively is just not used to. I can be overwelming. I know is was for me my first couple of judo classes.

[drmarc]

Tim:

The issues of resistance is a mixed bag. Kenji Ushiro Sensei (Karate Sensei) talked (and demonstrated) to me that being soft when being sent to the ground was not only a function of protecting yourself, but allowing yourself to form to the attack so that you can counter-attack on the way down to the ground. This position was also taken by James Williams Sensei (Nami Ryu). The more that I have explored this, the more open I have become to finding openings for attacks on the way down.

The other issue is that I have had enough experiences where people had resisted techniques and have gotten injured as a result trying this. I have always tried to be careful so that I am not directly injuring somebody, while making sure that they experience the choice of going to the ground, stopping movement, or getting injured.

The problem that many people have when trying to apply Aikido techniques with a person trying to resist the movement is that the forget Aikido and focus on waza. It takes a lot of practice to not stiffen and try and force a technique as opposed to guiding the movement to where a technique evolves.

I am an OLD wrestler and still enjoy playing with Judoka, wrestlers, BJJ people. I find that the Aikido principles applied work just fine for me. My experience is that they have an uncomfortable time trying to encounter resistance where none occurs.

One of my students brought an Goju person to class last night. At the end of class he was still trying to understand the idea of "soft". I let him "spar" with me. When I asked him to describe his experience of the "sparring" he said that he was confronted with a no openings and kept on getting frustrated trying to find openings. Most every time that he did so, he had to enter into my space and my atemi's (be them strikes with the hand or foot). His attacks were not fully committed so I simply allowed him to run into me each time.

All of this goes back to my contention that the issue is not with the art as not being effective. I believe that we are facing a teaching methodology problem is effectively teaching the critical "internal" aspects of the art that can make the art effective in a "real" manner. People become so focused on what the "waza" looks like as opposed to allowing waza to evolve from the situation.

respectfully,

Marc Abrams

[Sakumeikan]

Joe,
I am not going to get into some flame war here. You don't belive me and that is fine, my ego is alright with that. Just to add to things, recently I also began training with Dan Harden learning internal skills. If you though I had a low opinoin of aikido based on my cross training in judo, don't ask me what I think now. If you want to talk about this more via PM I would be more than glad to give you specific examples.

Tim
Dear Tim,
Its not about getting into any flame war?as you put it.I merely put it that a relative newcomer to Judo would not 'pummel the Aikidoka into the mat'. i did point out that a big guy. well motivated , with an intent to do bodily harm, can prove a handful. However there are as you know some Aikido instructors who .correct me if I am wrong here , are quite capable of 'taking care of business' as it were.
I practised Judo for 13 years prior to Aikido.In this period I had the privilege of training with and studying this art with many excellent Judoka, including such luminaries as Anton Geesink, Toshiro Daigo, Saburo Matsushita, Kenshiro Abbe[maybe the best all round Budo man ever].In the same context in Aikido I have met Senseis Saito, Tamura, Chiba, Shibata, Sekiya, Noro,etc. I could give you a list as long as my arm.The main thing I saw in each of these guys was a common denominator. They all are/were incredible martial artists. They all were/are gentlemen, with strong moral, ethical and spiritual values.
As I said earlier , by all means cross train and enjoy the experience, but dont neglect the 'hidden ' message of these disciplines.
I look forward to hearing from you , dear friend.Maybe see you at the Birankai Summer Camp 2007 in San Diego??
Cheers, Joe.