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john_lord_b3
20th March 2007, 05:45
To European Jujutsu researchers, especially my friend Johan Smits.

What style of Jujutsu is taught to West European military personnels before and during WWII? I am trying to determine the style of Jujutsu that was taught to the troops of NICA (Netherlands Indies Civil Administration), the KL and the KNIL.

The reason I'm asking is because I found some references of Indonesians who received "Judo Jiu Jitsu" training from Dutch troops.

Thank you in advance,

Ben

johan smits
20th March 2007, 09:56
Hi Ben,

That is a difficult question. I do know that in Germany, France and the UK jujutsu courses where taught to the army before WWII. Those courses started before or during WWI probably.
In Germany Erich Rahn taught jujutsu. He had learned jujutsu from several teachers, one of them was Higashi one of the authors of the complete Kano jiujitsu. This may have been Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu, I think I have read somewhere about this connection.
In the UK, Tani and Uenishi come to mind - I am not sure which styles they trained in. In France (from memory) Taro Miyake, not sure which style.

I am not aware of any structural training for the Dutch army in jujutsu. Most of the material I know of is from later date and is fashioned after American material.
I did reserach in the library of 'Bronbeek' - a military resthome for the elderly but did not find a lot overthere.

Andjin Nica is what they were called sometimes I think. Were they not mostly volunteers? It is my quess that they mostly trained in what was available for citizens. The KNIL must have been training in unarmed combat, the only thing I ever found was a photo of their 'sikap awas' with rifle and klewang.

Some time ago Robert Stover send me some interesting material from his teacher who was taught jujutsu by someone in the Dutch army in Indonesia. It was named, believe it or not, Nakada jujutsu.

I am still in the process of doing research on this.
For now - best regards,

Johan Smits

Joseph Svinth
21st March 2007, 01:52
It's not the Netherlands East Indies, but according to an AP story that appeared in the Appleton, Wisconsin "Post-Crescent" on Nov. 4, 1922:

"A German policeman has just finished giving instruction in Jiu-Jitsu, the Japanese method of self-protection, to guardians of the public order in Spain.

"Herr Wozny, of the Berlin criminal police department, returned recently from the engagement, for a brief visit home. Having established a reputation in Berlin as a police instructor, especially in Jiu-Jitsu, Wozny's services were 'borrowed' by the Spanish authorities. His commission included the development of police Jiu-Jitsu teachers at Barcelona, and instruction looking toward the establishment of a Jiu-Jitsu squad in Madrid."

john_lord_b3
21st March 2007, 05:11
With so many Germanic references, I wonder, was there a concerted effort by the Third Reich to learn the wonderful Jiu-Jitsu art of their noble ally, Japan?

Was the Fuhrer himself favored Jiu-Jitsu and personally encourage Aryan youth to practice it?

Joseph Svinth
21st March 2007, 07:14
Actually, yes, there was significant pre-WWII German interest in judo. Kano was in Germany ca. 1890, and the Berlin police had jujutsu training by 1910. This wasn't just boasting, either --Nagaoka went to Berlin to teach judo to the German police in 1934. By the 1930s, other Germans were behind the move to get judo into the Olympics (Kano didn't care too much, one way or the other), and under the fascist regimes, the Japanese and the Hitler Youth had regular exchange programs. The Germans also helped the Japanese Olympic wrestling team, and a Berlin policeman named Lehmann was promoted to 4-dan while Trevor Leggett was at the Kodokan.

Some notes from Japan Times (or Nippon Times, as it was known in those days).

28 Feb 1938, 1. Twelve Japanese go to Germany and Italy to teach judo and kendo. They are all in their 20s and high graded. (They were named, but I didn't write the names in my notes.)

30 Apr 1938, 3. The judo and kendo team gave a demonstration attended by Mussolini in Rome on 27 Apr; it was a 20-minute audience accompanied by Japanese ambassador. They were to leave for Florence the following day, thus concluding 8 days in Italy.

10 Jul 1938, 3. Judo and kendo team that visited Italy and Germany due back in Tokyo Tuesday evening about 5:10 p.m.

23 Jul 1938, 2. Military arts courses added to all school curricula; time devoted increased to two hours per week; teachers increased to 2-3 per school.

18 Sep 1938, 5. The Hitler Youth visiting Japan watched an old budo exhibition between 2:30 and 3:40 p.m. on 15 Sep 1938. Jujutsu demo was Shin-no-Shindo (Fairbairn's style, BTW) given by Mrs. Takeyo Suzuki and Mrs. Kaneko Imai. Bojutsu of Katori-Shinto-Ryu demonstrators included Mrs. Kimiko Sugino. Other styles named -- shuriken jutsu, kusariguruma-jutsu, etc., so some obscure stuff here.

8 Jul 1939, 3. After examining German calisthenics, Ministry of Education introduces new Japanese calisthenics.

19 Nov 1940, 8. After spectators are injured, Welfare Ministry requests stricter supervision of grenade throwing in the public schools.

7 Jan 1941, 8. Spiritual and military training added to sumo training.

9 Jan 1941, 4. In Meiji, Japanese military sword was modeled after the German military saber. Found inadequate in Russia in 1904, it was remade "in the style of the broadsword used by the Japanese during the end of the Kamakura period." Again found inadequate in 1930s.

21 Mar 1941, 8. Inauguration of the Japan Bayonet Fencing Association yesterday at Toyama Military Academy.

27 Mar 1941, 8. Military training instituted in Japanese universities in 1924. It was optional, and only a few participated. So, in 1937, 2 hours per week became mandatory.

9 Oct 1945, 3. Bayonet practice prohibited in Japanese public schools.

22 Oct 1945, 2. SCAP directive dtd 24 Sep 1945. Police ordered to collect revolvers, rifles, and "privately owned swords, except those having particular value as objects of art… As regards swords considered to be objects of art, such distinction in this matter is approved…"

***

Which brings us back to the Dutch. During WWII, there was, among other units, 10th Interallied Commando, with No. 2 (Dutch) Troop. They trained with the Royal Marine Commandos. Osprey has a book on the topic. ( http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S9991 ) Might be something here, too -- http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-0094(198710)22%3A4%3C563%3AHIITTD%3E2.0.CO%3B2-K:

Hot Intelligence in the Tropics: Dutch Intelligence Operations in the Netherlands East Indies during the Second World War
Bob de Graaff
Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 22, No. 4, Intelligence Services during the Second World War: Part 2 (Oct., 1987), pp. 563-584

All that said? My guess is on Fairbairn method, that sort of stuff. Why? See 10th Interallied Commando, above. Bluming is probably the man to ask about this sort of thing, as he was in the Dutch Army during the Korean War, and I believe he met Raymond Westerling.

johan smits
21st March 2007, 07:17
Ben,

Now you mention it I think there is a reference in 'Mein Kampf' on jiujitsu.

Jujutsu and maybe wrestling and boxing as well were probably seen as manly sports and useful as a basic training for young men.
WWI had quite some medieval forms of fighting in the trenches, knives, knuckledusters, sharpened shovels were used since mounted bayonets proved cumbersome. Quite interesting - now.
I have seen some material on military jujutsu from that period. Very - very basic but probably handy out there in the trenches.
From later date I must have a small booklet on combat judo or jiujitsu (can't recall) by the late Dick Schilder (in Dutch/Bahasa Indonesia). He taught jujutsu and judo in Indonesia but I am not sure if he did so before WWII.



Just now saw your post Joe - Raymond Westerling practiced jujutsu as a youth', don't know if he taught it in the military but he was quite a character. As a young man one of my teachers met him, told me he was a very scary guy.

best,

Johan Smits

Keikai
21st March 2007, 07:44
Hi Ben,

In Germany Erich Rahn taught jujutsu. He had learned jujutsu from several teachers, one of them was Higashi one of the authors of the complete Kano jiujitsu. This may have been Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu, I think I have read somewhere about this connection.


Johan Smits


My understanding from de Jong sensei was that Higashi was a Tsutsumi practitioner and a contempoary of his sensei the Saito's. Higashi followed Kano while Maesao Tsutsumi broke away from judo after helping with its development.

de Jong had two copies of a book that was printed in German around 1905 that was either by Masaeo Tsutsumi and printed after his death or was about him and Tsutsumi Ju Jutsu. I only saw the books in the bookcase and de Jong mentioned them in passing. The interesting thing was it described the Tsutsumi belt colours, different from judo, around 1905.

There has been no evidence, that we have found, that any Tsutsumi type techniques or training have survived in Germany from that time.

de Jong sensei taught in The Netherlands during WWII and I recall him saying that there were a number of people already doing some forms of ju jutsu before he got there.

johan smits
21st March 2007, 08:08
Hi Greg,

I have seen that book on some list (I will see if I can find it). Rahn himself published books on jujutsu and quite a lot of those techniques look like the techniques Higashi shows in the Kano jiujitsu.
The techniques by Higashi could that be considered Tsutsumi ryu you think?
I am doing some research at the moment to see if there has been any influence on Dutch teachers by Rahn. Which is likely - I am trying to find reasonable proof of that.

Lately I have trying to find pupils of Jan de Jong here in Holland during WWII. Unfortunately without succes.
I do know Jan de Jong taught at the school of Reinier Hulsker from Rotterdam and then later on left and taught jujutsu for himself.
By then there were several teachers of jujutsu teaching in Holland already - originated probably from some four different lines independant of each other.

best,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
21st March 2007, 15:25
..and I believe he met Raymond Westerling.

Och.. Raymond the killer.. :( We still remember his "operations" on West Java and South Sulawesi. Lots of controversies there, but sufficient to say that many people lost their lives during his "adventures"

Anyway, thank you for the info! :)

Robert Reinberger
21st March 2007, 16:30
It's not the Netherlands East Indies, but according to an AP story that appeared in the Appleton, Wisconsin "Post-Crescent" on Nov. 4, 1922:
With so many Germanic references, I wonder, was there a concerted effort by the Third Reich to learn the wonderful Jiu-Jitsu art of their noble ally, Japan?Later yes, but not in that case of 1922. The NSDAP came into power in 1933. The "Third Reich" lasted from then until 1945.


I have seen that book on some list (I will see if I can find it).It is this book:
Tsutsumi, Masao, Higashi, Katsukuma: Jiu-Jitsu die große Kunst der Selbstverteidigung und vollendeten Körperausbildung. Berlin, 1906.

Best regards,

Keikai
21st March 2007, 22:35
It is this book:
Tsutsumi, Masao, Higashi, Katsukuma: Jiu-Jitsu die große Kunst der Selbstverteidigung und vollendeten Körperausbildung. Berlin, 1906.

Best regards,


If you ever come across a spare copy of that book I would certainly like to buy it. The fact that I don't speak or read German is not a problem. Just to have a piece of the history of my style would be nice.

Robert Reinberger
22nd March 2007, 00:09
If you ever come across a spare copy of that book I would certainly like to buy it. The fact that I don't speak or read German is not a problem. Just to have a piece of the history of my style would be nice.I'm afraid you would be disappointed. Published one year after the Hancock & Higashi's "Kano Jiu-Jitsu" this book doesn't prove any connection between Higashi Katsukuma or Tsutsumi Masao to Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. On the contrary, it seems to be an indication that the equality of the name Tsutsumi, regarding Higashis teacher and the old school, could be coincidental. The techniques in this book (with some inconsistencies, of course) are much closer to Kodokan Judo than those in Higashis earlier book, and even a lot of well known designations for techniques are used. Therefore the book is more of a reference that Higashi (or at least his teacher Tsutsumi Masao) indeed must have had contact with Kodokan Judo ("Kano Jiu-Jitsu").

Higashi writes, that the book was originally written by Prof. Tsutsumi "eight years ago, shortly before his death" (that would have been 1898). He and his "old friend Kasiwa" had helped their teacher composing it.

Now comes another incosistency, when Higashi writes about the content, as in representing "the Kano-system":

"It is the product of many years of research and concentrated studies of my master, Professor Tsutsumi, who invented and established this tricks and rules, because he found them alone to be correct.

Well, in Japan there are in existence miscellaneous other systems of self-defense: Hoshino, Shinshoriu, Sekiguchi and Tsutsumi, but since the Kano-system has become the official Jiu-Jitsu of the government in the army, navy, police and at public schools, all the other systems came into use lesser and lesser."

Some of the techniques shown in that book (I use the original spelling, as given in the book) are hiki-otoshi, o-uchigari, hizakuruma, makikomi, seoinage, koshinage, ko-uchikari, yokosutemi and mostly resemble the throws known from judo. Different shime waza are all called "Kubishime", arm- and leglocks "udeori" and "ashiori" respectively (that means "armbreak" and "legbreak").

Regards,

Keikai
22nd March 2007, 08:21
Thank you for that Robert.

de Jong sensei did say the book was written about the time of Tsutsumi's death and was more by Higashi. I suspect the later comment about the other styles become less popular may have been put in after Tsutsumi's death.

I recall reading in the foreword, I think in an early edition of the Kodokan Judo book but I may well be wrong, that Tsutsumi and Hoshino basically doubled the number of techniques in the Judo syllubus. Whether this is true or not no one will ever be able to say for sure. de Jong sensei told us Tsutsumi moved away from judo because he could see his system disappearing and he felt it had much still to offer.

The names of the techniques you mention are in the main exactly how we use them now. The terms "udeori" and "ashiori" are not used by us. Either Ude Kujiki or Ude Kudakiare both meaning arm breaking or smashing or crushing. Either way your arm is going to hurt.

Does Higashi refer to his "master" in the text and of help to compose the book for "their teacher". If so it would seem to indicate that Higashi was a student of Tsutsumi. He may never have graded all the way through the system so moved to the Kano system. Remembering that it was originally a blending of many ju jutsu styles. The book "The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu" would indicate that it was more ju jutsu than judo at that stage.

Once again thank you for the translation

johan smits
22nd March 2007, 10:01
Hi to you all,

I did find a reference giving the publishing date for the Higashi/Tsutsumi book as 1899. Can't find the site anymore (made a print of the text).

best,

Johan Smits

johan smits
22nd March 2007, 10:24
One more thing. I think we should not forget that Kano was not the only one who was trying to formulate a more general style of jujutsu. Several jujutsuteachers were trying to do that.The Noguchi brothers are an example and there must have been more like them I am sure.
From the books by the Noguchi's it becomes obvious that a lot of what we today recognize as names for judotechniques are identical. For instance makikomi, hizaguruma, etc still what they did was not Kodokan judo.

What I am trying to say is that if the names and even if the techniques resemble those of Kodokan judo it does not have to mean it was Kodokan judo.

best,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
22nd March 2007, 16:27
Later yes, but not in that case of 1922. The NSDAP came into power in 1933. The "Third Reich" lasted from then until 1945.
Tsutsumi, Masao, Higashi, Katsukuma: Jiu-Jitsu die große Kunst der Selbstverteidigung und vollendeten Körperausbildung. Berlin, 1906.

Best regards,

Thank you very much Robert san for the information.

I like the title of the book. So, even in 1906 the Jujutsu art has been referred to as the "Great Art" of "Self Defense" and "building body" (is that a proper translation for Körperausbildung?"

Is there any Dojo in Deutschland which still teach the style of Jujutsu as taught in that Tsutsumi book?


PS: Johan san, you got PM :)

john_lord_b3
22nd March 2007, 16:41
One more thing. I think we should not forget that Kano was not the only one who was trying to formulate a more general style of jujutsu. Several jujutsuteachers were trying to do that.The Noguchi brothers are an example and there must have been more like them I am sure.
From the books by the Noguchi's it becomes obvious that a lot of what we today recognize as names for judotechniques are identical. For instance makikomi, hizaguruma, etc still what they did was not Kodokan judo.


Never seen that book so cannot comment. But there are many Jujutsu schools uses waza with similar name but very different technique. Hakko-ryu's makikomi for example, is not a winding throw but a wrist lock. Hakko-ryu's hiza gatame is not a knee lock but another wrist pin.



What I am trying to say is that if the names and even if the techniques resemble those of Kodokan judo it does not have to mean it was Kodokan judo.

My point also. Too many people (including Judokas) are quick to accuse modern Jujutsu as simply "bastard judo" or "illegal judo".

My theory is this. Kodokan Judo as taught before WWII is very different with today's sport-oriented Judo. How this happened? I think this happened.

Back then, many Jujutsu teachers joined the Kodokan for prestige and received Judo gradings. Then they went to other countries and teach their techniques under the brand name "Judo" or "Jiujitsu" and present themselves as "Certified by Prof. Kano". But the waza they teach to their student is more like a mix between "standard Judo" that Prof. Kano require at the Kodokan with the self-defense tricks from their own style of Jujutsu. So it wasn't pure Koryu, it wasn't pure sport Judo, and it wasn't simply sport Judo applied for self-defense. It was sport Judo+Kodokan self-defense+old Koryu Jujutsu tricks which still works for 20th century situations.

Off course I can be mistaken, as many people here already know, that I have low IQ and bad ENglish :)

johan smits
23rd March 2007, 11:02
post deleted

Johan Smits

johan smits
23rd March 2007, 11:03
I think there is still an organisation in Germany which is linked to Erich Rahn and rightly so. It would be a shame if the techniques they trained would be lost. Don't know though if they are still working with the original syllabus Erich Rahn used.

If Erich Rahn indeed learned Tsutsumi Hozan ryu and later taught that style than I think there has been some influence of it in Holland. I am looking into that at the moment.
Some years ago there was an article on Jan de Jong in I think it was Fighting Arts International. In in a photo was shown of Jan de Jong throwing Reinier Hulsker in a hip/shoulder throw combined with an armlock.
I got a photograph like that in which Johan van der Bruggen pretty much shows the same technique.

best for now,

Johan Smits

Hissho
23rd March 2007, 17:54
It was sport Judo+Kodokan self-defense+old Koryu Jujutsu tricks which still works for 20th century situations.



I think you are right Ben. But this is also how modern Kodokan Judo is praticed in some dojo.

john_lord_b3
24th March 2007, 07:30
I think you are right Ben. But this is also how modern Kodokan Judo is praticed in some dojo.

And that's a good way because not everybody wants to be Judo athletes. Some people actually joined Judo schools to learn practical self-defense.

Robert Reinberger
24th March 2007, 18:43
Does Higashi refer to his "master" in the text and of help to compose the book for "their teacher". If so it would seem to indicate that Higashi was a student of Tsutsumi. Definitely, Greg. When I wrote: "He and his 'old friend Kasiwa' had helped their teacher composing it" I meant: "He (Higashi Katskuma) and his 'old friend Kasiwa' helped their teacher (Tsutsumi Masao) composing it." Higashi also wrotes about the time when this was originaly done:

"At that time, when Prof. Tsutsumi wrote his work, I was one of his teacher's pets and, together with my friend, assisted him with the composition of it."

To me it seems that the original text were the descriptions of the techniques at least. These were translated into German by Kasiwa. When Higashi found that out, he added a preface, and possibly also the other parts that are included in the book (competition rules, student's ranking, how to study Jiu-Jitsu, and the part about Kuatsu). This last part starts with:

"Approximately 248 years ago - about 1658 - ...".

Therefore this sentence was written in 1906. Then Higashi and Kasiwa took the pictures that accompany the text, and published the book.

After he has lost his match against Yukio Tani at Bostock's Hippodrome in Paris on November 30th, 1905, Higashi was very busy in Berlin in 1906:

Proved and/or testified activities:
In early 1906 he gave demonstrations (and possibly fought) at "Apollo-Theater", after that, on February 8th, he fought against and defeated R. Fitsimmons, a boxer, who had challenged him, at Zirkus Schumann. Maybe already at the Apollo, but at least at Zirkus Schumann Erich Rahn saw and approached him, so that Higashi eventually instructed Rahn, as the latter has stated.

Possible activities:
Higashi possibly also made contact with Julius Hoffmann, who issued the German translation of "Kano Jiu-Jitsu" by H.I. Hancock and K. Higashi, and possibly also with Prof. Erwin Baelz, who (due to his role in reviving Japanese Jujutsu and his acquaintance with Jigoro Kano, who has been a student at the university at which Baelz taught in Japan) was asked by Hoffmann to write an introduction for the German version.

Proved activity:
Finally Higashi composed the book in question, originally written by his teacher.



What I am trying to say is that if the names and even if the techniques resemble those of Kodokan judo it does not have to mean it was Kodokan judo. Johan, that goes without question. But what do we have? Yes, Higashi clearly has stated, that he was a student of Tsutsumi Masao. But as yet I haven't seen or read about any proof or even indication that Tsutsumi Masao had anything to do with Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu, beside the one shared name. This name seems to be the only relation, but as "Tsutsumi" also happens to be no uncommon name in Japan, I think it is bold to draw the conclusion of an interrelationship between this man and that Koryu. Even in the citation I provided in my earlier post, Higashi seems to distinguish between Tsutsumi, his teacher, and Tsutsumi, the "older system", but I admit that it is not very clear, even in the German original. And there is still that sentence of Masao Tsutsumi being the "inventor and establisher" of this "tricks and rules". Therefore it may well be, that Masao Tsutumi's teachings were also called "Tsutsumi system", but after him, not after the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu.

And then, it's not me, it's Higashi who throughout the book gave the impression that it is the "Kano-system" that is presented in the book. He even ended his foreword with:

"In Japan, 'Jiu-Jitsu' is the self-defense of the best society and we owe that in large part to Prof. Kano, the creator of the only system applied at present."

On the other hand, there is some hearsay of the name of Katsukuma Higashi to be found in some old Kodokan list, or even that he was expelled because Kano did not like how his name and system was represented in the "Kano Jiu-Jitsu" book, unfortunately also without any really proof or sources given.

What do I gather from all that? I think the same as Ben, more abstract, wrote in one of his posts here. I would assume, that while probably it wasn't pure Kodokan Judo (even how it looked like in 1906) which was taught to and can be found in the works of Katsukuma Higashi, but it was that (heavily influenced by "Kano's system") generic type of jujutsu, that was taught in Japan and abroad in that times by (sometimes former) members of the Kodokan or (since 1895) the Butokukai, or their students at different schools and colleges, at the imperial army and police, or by other teachers who had jumped the bandwagon. I don't think it was any specific type of "koryu jujutsu".



I like the title of the book. So, even in 1906 the Jujutsu art has been referred to as the "Great Art" of "Self Defense" and "building body" (is that a proper translation for Körperausbildung?" Ben, I think it can be translated like you did. Or as "bodybuilding" without it's actual modern connotation.


Is there any Dojo in Deutschland which still teach the style of Jujutsu as taught in that Tsutsumi book? Ben, I'm an Austrian, but I would doubt that the syllabus and techniques described there are taught anywhere in the world today exactly as laid down in this book.


If Erich Rahn indeed learned Tsutsumi Hozan ryu and later taught that style than I think there has been some influence of it in Holland. Johan, please forgive me, but that seems to me to be a real stretch. Not only, because I think it is highly disputable to assume that Higashi practised or taught Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Jujutsu, but also because nobody believes that Erich Rahn (or any of the other European pioneers, BTW) had learned any complete system. Regarding Rahn, he stated that he had learned his first "tricks" as a teenager from "the sons of his father's Japanese business partners". His second source seems to have been Higashi. According to his books, Rahn also had learned and "have had the opportunity to practise" with the following Japanese teachers at several occasions (but not over extended periods of time I think):

Yukio Tani - we all know, how difficult it is to identify his style. He himself, seem to have creditet his father as his most important teacher, at least according to his student Masutaru Otani (http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tribute-matsutaro-otani.htm). (http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tribute-matsutaro-otani.htm) There are some indications and speculations that Tani could have learned some Tenshin Shinyo Ryu as well as Fusen Ryu Jujutsu. It is certain, that Tani did not join the Kodokan, together with Gunji Koizumi, before 1920, when Jigoro Kano visited their London "Budokwai" and awarded Nidan to both of them.

Sadakazu "Raku" Uyenishi - there are speculations, that he might have learned Tenshin Shinyo Ryu as well, but it seems that he was (also) a Kodokan Yudansha. There is a picture of Tani and Uyenishi in Rahn's school in one of his books.

Akitaro Ono - Clearly a yondan from the Kodokan at that time. Pictures of Higashi and Ono performing techniques (not together, but with different Uke), also appear in at least one of Rahn's books.

Therefore, Rahn's Jiu-Jitsu definitely had several sources, and not one specific style, let alone one specific, identifiable Koryu.

Would you all please excuse my long-winded post as it is difficult for me to formulate brief and concisely, especially in English.

Best regards,

Robert Reinberger
24th March 2007, 19:36
I recall reading in the foreword, I think in an early edition of the Kodokan Judo book but I may well be wrong, that Tsutsumi and Hoshino basically doubled the number of techniques in the Judo syllubus. Whether this is true or not no one will ever be able to say for sure. de Jong sensei told us Tsutsumi moved away from judo because he could see his system disappearing and he felt it had much still to offer.Greg, it's in the foreword by Katsukuma Higashi in "Kano Jiu-Jitsu". The relevant paragraph reads:

"The Kano system, at the time of its adoption by the Japanese government, consisted of forty-seven tricks of combat and fifteen 'serious' tricks. Additions and amplifications have been made by those great teachers, Hoshino and Tsutsumi, until now the complete system, as we teach it, comprises one hundred and sixty tricks. [...] Jiu-jitsu, or jiudo, is in Japan the art of the gentleman. It is not surprising, therefore, that the highest evolution of our ancient Japanese style of combat should come about in these days through the efforts of Professor Jiguro (sic!) Kano. To him we owe much, and also to Messrs. Hoshino and Tsutsumi, who, by their toil, have rounded out the Kano system to its present perfection and supremacy."

This is just another indication about the style Katsukuma Higashi has learned, described and taught: not Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Jujutsu, but an offshoot of Kodokan Judo 1898/1905/1906, that probably was not appreciated very much by the Kodokan or Kano Shihan himself.

Of course, we also have to take into account, that while the first Gokyo was formulated in 1895, it was revised in 1920 (and again in 1982). And the official Kodokan syllabus was formulated 1906 and 1912 in principle, not easy to be known by Higashi already in 1905/1906 or by his teacher in 1898.

Regards,

Keikai
25th March 2007, 07:24
Thank you Robert. A great set of posts. Yor are right about Tsutsumi being a common name in Japan. Just try a Google search.

de Jong sensei told us the name of Masaeo Tsutsumi as being the teacher of his sensei, the Saito's. There is in existance a book in Japanese that lists the techniques of the Tsutsumi Ryu. I believe that it was done in the 1970's from the scrolls of the style that are held by the decendents of Tsutsumi. They no longer trainu jutsu.

It may be possible to see if it has any listing of the heads of the style. It is known that the style was still being taught in Japan during the 1920's because the Saito's had contact with members from the parent school while they were in Indonesia. The Saito's did not like judo because of the competition where judo won. Their view was that the ju jutsu people had to fight in a method that they did not use. Who knows now. de Jong sensei past that much onto us as part of different conversations over many years. Sadly as with all oral traditions so much gets lost and so much frustration results.

"Would you all please excuse my long-winded post as it is difficult for me to formulate brief and concisely, especially in English."

Your posts are excellent and certainly could not be done in a briefer manner.

Robert Reinberger
25th March 2007, 19:53
Greg,

I'm sorry that I've never talked with de Jong Shihan about that matter in any detail, while there were several opportunities. When I first met him in person in 1987 at the Pencak Silat World Championships in Kuala Lumpur (he was the leader of the Australian team, and I the Austrian member of the PERSILAT Ohlaraga (now Wiralaga) wasit/juri team), the hosts took all the participants in some buses for a trip to Mellaca one day. When we were there, your teacher and I talked the whole afternoon about - jujutsu! I remember my surprise, when, some years later and whithout any prior arrangement, he called me, immediatly before I had to leave for work, and asked: "Hi, I'm here in Vienna now, we are three persons, where could we stay, and what could we do?" He was that type of person. I took a day free from work and took him, Margaret and an accompanying student to Schönbrunn Castle. I remember it as it had been yesterday, we talked all the day, and at one point, talking about my family, I unsucessfully sought for a specific english word. "Say it in German!" asked Margaret. On that day I learned, that the German word "Kindergarten" is also used in English.

We also had some exchange of letters, and may have met again at the Silat-championships 1990 in The Hague (Netherlands) and/or 1994 in Hatyai (Thailand), where I also was a referee, but I'm not sure now if he was there both times. However, I even have his signature on one of my certificates (http://www.budoforum.net/jjvottakring/images/yondanurkunde1999.jpg), as he was vice-president and Australian representative of the WJJC.

Sorry for the thread-drift, and back on topic: regarding Tsutsumi Masao, and taking into account his possible age, it is very likely that he has started his training in jujutsu well before Kodokan Judo was even founded. And it is certainly not impossible, that his original style was, indeed, Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. I only think, that his name alone is not a proof of that. And it may also be, that it was his original style, from that Tsutsumi Masao draw his "additions and amplifications" for the "Kano system". I also have no idea, if, what or when the Saito brothers had learned from him. I just find it very unlikely, that Katsukuma Higashi, after that and after all he himself had written and showed in pictures, could rightly be called an exponent of Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu with any certainty.

Best regards,

john_lord_b3
26th March 2007, 07:11
This is just another indication about the style Katsukuma Higashi has learned, described and taught: not Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Jujutsu, but an offshoot of Kodokan Judo 1898/1905/1906, that probably was not appreciated very much by the Kodokan or Kano Shihan himself.


Robert san, thank you very much for your excellent and informative posts above.

I think the recurring theme which happens again (and again, and again) in the world of martial arts is "in marketing, prestige is as important as teaching skills". Higashi sensei already have good grounding on a certain Jujutsu system, then he (maybe) joined the Kodokan to get one of those coveted DAN ranks, which, at that time, is a sign of a "bona fide teacher". Remember that Okazaki sensei of Hawaii did the same, he actually travelled back to Japan to get the 3rd Dan in Kodokan, after he had a kind of certificate in Jujutsu.

So, I think, there were people who wish to teach Jujutsu abroad and already has the skills to do so, and they joined the Kodokan simply to get more "prestige". But then, what they actually taught to their foreigner student was something else, not exactly Kodokan, nor exactly Koryu.

And they gave out belt ranks to their students, to replace the traditional Menkyo/densho system, because writing those densho took too much time. It's easier to simply give out a piece of cloth, rather than taking actual time to sit down and brush a long scroll with archaic calligraphy.

Again, I could very well be mistaken. (amateur historian here :) )

Keikai
26th March 2007, 09:54
Hi Robert

We are all in the same position. I too wished that we were able to get more information from him about the history. It is possible that he did not know all that much about his teacher's teacher other than it was Masaeo Tsutsumi. We trained with him a number of times each week but he did not speak about his teachers or when he trained very often. Small things here and there that happened while they were training but not a lot beyond that. He did have the deepest respect and affection for his teachers.

Tsutsumi died in 1898 from what I understand. I believe that Ben probably has as close an explanation as we can get. Higashi probably did not grade all the way through the system and then changed to Kano Jui Jitsu and followed and taught that syllabus. It would have been influenced by Tsutsumi but he promoted the Kano system.

It is really all speculation at this point in time. It would be great to have a difinitive answer but that is never likely to happen.

johan smits
26th March 2007, 09:59
Hi Robert,

Keep 'm coming please those posts!
Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to fabricate something which isn't but...
In case Erich Rahn did learn Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu (and maybe other styles) it would be interesting to compare his techniques with the old techniques Jan de Jong taught in his early days. There are books by Rahn and probably some very old pupils from Jan de Jong left. It is a chance.

Now if these techniques correspond then I feel there has been some influence on at least one or two jujutsuteachers in Holland, through the books Erich Rahn published in the 20's and '30's.

I agree no-one from that period learned a complete koryu and taught it later (maybe Jan de Jong is an exception to that, that is well possible).

best,

Johan Smits

GCP
26th March 2007, 16:20
Whilst the subject of judo/jujutsu in Germany is being discussed, I was just wondering if anybody recognises the names in this quote.


Mathew Komp originally learned judo, jiu jitsu, aikido, wrestling and boxing as a young man in Germany. Komp had been taught judo and jiu jitsu by his instructor in Cologne, Hassermayer, and later by another German (Wolfe?) who had trained in Japan prior to the Second World War.

This is from a history of Aiuchi, a modern English jujutsu association. Little more is know of Hassermayer or Wolfe. Just wondering if anybody had come across these people.

Keikai
26th March 2007, 17:05
I met Matthew Komp some years ago when he came to Perth. He was teaching in Melbourne for many years. More a judo person than ju jutsu from what I saw.

Robert Reinberger
27th March 2007, 01:01
Graham,

the first person must be Alfred Hasemeier, I guess, a chiefinspector from cologne, and, in the 1960ies and 1970ies author of several books (http://www.buchpreis24.de/autor/Alfred%20Hasemeier) about several martial arts as well as Kuatsu, Yoga, and other topics. In 1968 he, together with Vernon C. F. Bell, founded the International Jujitsu Federation-IJJF (http://www.ryuzado.com/EJJU_Homepage.htm), not to be confused with Ju Jitsu International Federation-JJIF which was founded later, and originally also was named "International Ju Jitsu Federation-IJJF".

The second name reminds me on Horst Wolf, a prominent 9th Dan Judo from (former) East Germany, and also author of several books. But I don't think that he was trained in Japan, and as it seems he died before the fall of the Iron Curtain, it is also unlikely (but not impossible) that somebody has learned from him in East Germany as well as from Hasemeier in West Germany. However, as "Wolf" is a common name in countries with German language, maybe a different person is meant.

Regards,

Neil Hawkins
27th March 2007, 02:49
I have to say that this discussion is excellent, and it seems to be confirming my own interpretation of our school's history.

The book that Greg mentions is based on the Koryu Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu and lists a number of traditional weapons in the curriculumn, but only a handfull of Jujutsu Kata, the lineage in the book does not mention a Maseo Tsutsumi and lists the last Headmaster dying in the 1950's, it does not list a current teacher and we have not been able to track down the author, the address I have for him in the 1970's in Tokyo no longer exists. The search continues...

Anyway, as I have said a number of times it has always been my belief the Maseo Tsutsumi broke away from the school and became involved with the "Judo Crowd" it makes sense that he developed his own jujutsu system and potentially borrowed a number of techniques from different sources, developed some of his own and used some of the koryu techniques. There are definitely techniques in our style that are koryu based, there are also some that are similar to techniques used within Daito Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu and others.

That may also account for why our school has always been referred to as Tsutsumi Ryu rather than Hozan Ryu which would be the more correct abbreviation, I had previously thought this was just a western affectation.

Thank you very much for the information gentlemen.

Regards

Neil

Robert Reinberger
27th March 2007, 09:14
In case Erich Rahn did learn Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu (and maybe other styles) it would be interesting to compare his techniques with the old techniques Jan de Jong taught in his early days. There are books by Rahn and probably some very old pupils from Jan de Jong left. It is a chance.

Now if these techniques correspond then I feel there has been some influence on at least one or two jujutsuteachers in Holland, through the books Erich Rahn published in the 20's and '30's.Johan, we haven't only Rahn's books! In 1921 a silent movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0194065/) , featuring Erich Rahn, was produced under the tiltle "Jiu-Jitsu - Die unsichtbare Waffe" ("Jiu-Jitsu - the invisible weapon"). Ditmar Gdanietz, Rahn's successor has made this film available at DVD for € 24,50 + S&H. The Website is at http://www.djjr.de/ (got to: "Erich Rahn DVD" in the menu). Here is the direct link to the relevant page (http://www.djjr.de/historie.htm). Now, ain't that good news for anybody interested in the history of Jujutsu in the West?

Regards,

johan smits
27th March 2007, 09:26
Robert that is absolutely great news!

From the website it seems to me this is a rare piece of jujutsu history and we are certainly lucky to have something like this available.
I am going to order it for sure.

Thanks for sharing.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

GCP
27th March 2007, 17:14
Robert,

Thanks for the information on Alfred Hasemeier, thats very useful. Now I can start searching for what it was he taught.

Simon Keegan
28th March 2007, 10:47
Graham,

the first person must be Alfred Hasemeier, I guess, a chiefinspector from cologne, and, in the 1960ies and 1970ies author of several books (http://www.buchpreis24.de/autor/Alfred%20Hasemeier) about several martial arts as well as Kuatsu, Yoga, and other topics. In 1968 he, together with Vernon C. F. Bell, founded the International Jujitsu Federation-IJJF (http://www.ryuzado.com/EJJU_Homepage.htm), not to be confused with Ju Jitsu International Federation-JJIF which was founded later, and originally also was named "International Ju Jitsu Federation-IJJF".

,


I'm not sure what that organisation is that claims to be the IJJF that Vernon Bell headed. The IJJF still exists and is headed by Terry Wingrove who began training under Vernon Bell in about 1956. It is found here:
http://www.ijjf.com/

Robert Reinberger
28th March 2007, 15:39
I'm not sure what that organisation is that claims to be the IJJF that Vernon Bell headed. The IJJF still exists and is headed by Terry Wingrove who began training under Vernon Bell in about 1956. It is found here:
http://www.ijjf.com/Simon,

I have no idea, as I only knew the names of the organisations. Now it seems that there was a split after the passing of Mr. Bell. However, I always was under the impression that the IJJF/EJJU was not organised like the typical federations (that means like a "sport association") but rather was registered as company or trade name by Mr. Bell, which would make splits more difficult, but I could be wrong.

Unfortunately there is not much to find at the link you provided, regarding history, logos, etc., but obviously the same organizations, founded by Mr. Bell and others, seem to be claimed by both parts.

Regards,

Simon Keegan
29th March 2007, 13:43
I'm not sure how or why the apparent split occurred. I will see Wingrove Sensei on Sunday and if I get chance I will ask him. Follows are his biography and a related obituary of Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten who along with Vernon Bell founded the IJJF.


TERRY WINGROVE
Technical Director, KARATE JUTSU INTERNATIONAL
INTERNATIONAL JUJITSU FEDERATION
7th Dan Karate (FAJKO, WUKO), 9th Dan Jujitsu (EJJU, IJJF), 3rd Dan Aikido, 3rd Dan Judo

Terry was born in London on 8th May 1941, his first contact with martial arts was practicing Judo as an 11 year old at the Budokwai in London. By the time he was 16 he came under the influence and teaching of the late Vernon Bell. By the time he was 17 he had enrolled in Vernon Bell's Jujitsu and Karate classes, the first classes in Karate anywhere in UK. Terry's drive to improve his knowledge meant he studied with all the instructors that Vernon Bell invited to the UK including Huang Nam, Tetsugi Murakami both of whom were teaching Yoseikan style Karate. Terry attended the first Aikido course ever held in the UK in 1960 under Tadashi Abe.
By late 1960 Terry was travelling to Paris to study with Murakami in Henry Plee's Dojo. Also Terry attended classes at Jim Alcheiks - the great French Karate teacher who studied martial arts in Japan in the 1950's and subsequently was killed in Algeria by anti-terrorist police in 1962. By 1963 Terry was an assistant instructor in Karate and Judo in UK. In December 1963 Terry captained the first ever British Karate team in Paris where he and Jimmy Neal were the highest grades in the UK team at 1st Kyu with Vernon Bell as the national coach. Other members of the team included B Hammond, A. Sherry, A Smith.
In 1965 Vernon Bell invited the JKA to UK and Senseis Kase, Kanezawa, Enoeda and Shirai arrived in the summer of '65. Terry was now 24 and motivated to go to Japan to see for himself and train in Karate, Aikido and Jujitsu. He married in 1965 and went to Cape Town, South Africa following Shirai Sensei who was teaching at Hugh St John Thompson's Dojo. Eventually in 1967 he obtained the necessary work visas and arrived in Japan in August '67. He was employed as a physical education teacher at the Marist International School in Kobe and joined the biggest Karate Dojo in the area which was the Shito-Ryu Dojo of Chojiro Tani and became secretary of the internationl Shukokai organisation training with Kimura and Tani. Tani Sensei was a school and university teacher and very articulate in English and greatly respected as an original student of Mabuni.
During the mid 60's there was a major and sincere effort to unite all the styles of Karate under the patronage and sponsorship of Japan's richest man Ryoichi Sasakawa. Tani Sensei introduced and recommended Terry to Sasakawa and Terry was appointed to the secretariat of Federation All Japan Karate Organisations (FAJKO) and the World Union of Karate Organisations (WUKO) as the only foreigner working in the organisation of FAJKO and WUKO.
Terry helped organise the first World Karate Championships in Japan in 1970 and subsequently travelled the world many times as a WUKO staff member. This was the so-called "golden years" of united Karate with the great Masters such as Nakayama, Yamaguchi, Ohtsuka, Iwata, Tani, Mabuni and many others teaching and grading in unison on instructor courses. Terry attended the first and famous all-styles course in 1972 in Chiba, near Tokyo where he was awarded his 5th Dan.
Terry also studied Jujitsu and Aikido and was invited as a Karate instructor to many countries. Terry's position in the secretariat of FAJKO and WUKO opened many doors for him to study with great Masters in martial arts during his 21 year stay in Japan. Terry was awarded his 7th Dan Kyoshi in 1989, by Masafumi Suzuki 10th Dan and founder of the Seibukan in Kyoto
Terry's passion is Karate as a martial art not sporting Karate. His research and specialist study of Karate has taken him all over Japan, Okinawa and China. This again was possible as Terry combined his study of martial arts with his business as an Oriental art dealer.
Terry enjoys teaching and is in constant demand all over the world, where he has built up a following amongst serious students of martial arts. Terry is non-political regarding martial arts and truly enjoys imparting his extensive knowledge to students and teachers of all ages and grades. He REFUSES payment for his teaching saying he teaches because he "wants to", not "because he has to". Terry is always happy to discuss any matters on Karate or martial arts and can be contacted on email : budosensei@budosensei.com or sensei@cyberbudo.com
or Tel:0770 8888880 also please see the website www.cyberbudo.com



Prof. Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten 9th Dan Hanshi
Professor of Psychology, Vienna University and Co-founder of EJJU & IJJF

On the 4th August, 2006 the remaining founding father of the EJJU, IJJF, Professor Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten Hanshi Kudan passed away in Vienna. Professor Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten Hanshi Kudan had taught many times in England and was well known as the Martial Arts partner for many years of the late Dr. Vernon Bell. Prof. Wenkstetten conveyed his knowledge and experience acquired in Budo magnanimously. He worked tirelessly in his professional life at Vienna University and was an outstanding authority on college education.

johan smits
31st March 2007, 11:52
Greg and Neil,

About Masaseo Tsutsumi, have you checked if he was affiliated to the Kodokan? As a teacher or as a dangrade?
This might give some info on him.

best,

Johan Smits

Keikai
31st March 2007, 13:29
The only real information we have has been given by Richard in his post on Higashi. He helped develop Kano ju Jutsu and then broke away.

de Jong sensei said he moved away because he wanted to preserve his own system of ju jutsu because it had much to offer. I do not believe that he was graded by the Kodokan. I doubt they would have any record of his involvement.

Robert Reinberger
31st March 2007, 15:42
About Masaseo Tsutsumi, have you checked if he was affiliated to the Kodokan? As a teacher or as a dangrade? This might give some info on him.The only thing I can add to this, is not about Tsutsumi Masao but about Higashi Katsukuma: Somewhere down the road some years ago, I've read somebody's comment, that he had got an information from someone who had searched some old Kodokan-lists, and had found an entry of somebody named Higashi Katsukuma.

Unfortunately I can't remember who or where it was, and couldn't find this note again, even after some search with different keywords. It might have been on jujutsu-list, in pre E-budo times, but I'm not sure, and this list's web archive interface has "no archive posts currently available". However, while that comment certainly can't be classified as evidence at all, it is the nearest to real "proof" I ever came, regarding that issue.

At a german forum I found a claim, that Higashi was excluded from the Kodokan (that mean that he have had to be a member beforehand), after the book he wrote together with Hancock was published. But, as no sources were given, this also has to be rated as an indication at the utmost, rather than evidence supplied.

Greg, which Richard did you mean?

Regards,

johan smits
31st March 2007, 20:14
There is a chance that if Masao Tsutsumi was someone of importance in the koryu jujutsu world some records of this exist at the Kodokan. You could try and contact the Kodokan or some old-time long term residents of Japan with a connection to the Kodokan. I believe there are some pretty advanced judoka who are researching judo history.
It might be worth a try.

Did Tsutsumi-ryu exist before Masao Tsutsumi or was this the name of his system after getting graded in Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu which he (if I am not mistaken) taught the Saito brothers, who taught Jan de Jong, who revised the system but kept using the name?

best,

Johan

Keikai
1st April 2007, 04:03
My apologies Robert. It was you that I meant. That mistake just about covers how well my work went last week.

Keikai
1st April 2007, 04:11
Tsutsumi Ryu was the shortened name that was used to refer to the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. de Jong did tell me that when he trained they would start the class with a sort of acknowledgement to the history of Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. Basically that they were from the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. He said that he had it written down but that was the last I heard of it. It would have to be translated from at least Dutch with Indonesian thrown in and a little Japanese as well i guess. de Jong sensei spoke a number of languages and liked to describe things in different languages to get the best from each.

I must apologies to Ben for the way this thread has diverged from his question of what style was taught before WW II etc... While it has been very interesting and informative for us it still has not really answered his question. Does anyone know the answer?

johan smits
1st April 2007, 12:51
You are right Greg - sorry Ben, quess I also got a bit carried away.

Apart from Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu I do not now what style was taught before the War in Indonesia. One other teacher I know of is Mr. Taiji Nakada and then the teacher Mr. Watanabe, Ben gave us a translation here on the forum of a piece he found in an Indonesian book.

As far as I know there has been no unarmed combat taught to the Dutch army say 1800's - 1900's. Only fencing with the usual weapons, bayonet-fighting and stickfighting (long and short stick). That is it. The KNIL (Royal Dutch Indies Army) was from early on another story. If I recall correctly these were troops which came into existence to specifically fight opposing Indonesian forces (then called rebels - they were probably freedomfighters). They were trained differently and fought differently using nonconventional tactics..
My father (passed away several years ago) met quite a lot of older KNIL -soldiers when he was in the army. He described them to be as tough as nails, very capable with all regular weapons but especially with the klewang. He told many times of KNIL veterans slicing their klewang through young pisangtrees. Clean through, the top standing ( the tree apparantly intact) until pushed then it fell over. How's that for tameshigiri?
He did not recall specific unarmed techniques from KNIL-soldiers, which naturally does not mean they didn't train in them.
My father was taught boxing, judo as unarmed combat - he was specific about this - not jujutsu but judo and bayonetfighting. He saw service in the early '50's

Back to jujutsu. Nakada has no reference at the Kodokan this means he was not qualified as a Kodokan teacher not even graded (does not appear in their dangraderegister). This could mean he learned and later taught a form of jujutsu older than judo. On the other hand, he writes about things pre-WWII, jujutsuteachers just didn't write about. He must have had some training in judo or in a koryu jujutsuform with a heavy emphasis on randori (the last is something more common than we normally think according to some people).

It is my quess that pentjak silat would be a logical system to train in for people in the KNIL. On the other hand there was a very large population of Japanese in prewar Indonesia. There is a chance that pentjak silat was taught here in Holland before the war, maybe even in the 1920's.
This is a whole different topic for research. From memory I think pentjak silat Baru is a style which had quite some influence from Japanese systems.

One more thing which makes research on things Japanese a bit more difficult is the (understandable) hesitation from the older generations of Indonesians here in Holland to talk about these days.

Still research goes on.

best for now,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
2nd April 2007, 11:05
No need to apologize at all, friends. In fact, I like this thread very much, because it give a more broad, comprehensive look at the phenomenon of "modernized Jujutsu". I thank you Johan san for your excellent piece of information.

Next friday I will be visiting Mr. Prayitno (Greg san's old pal :) ) and maybe he has some tidbits of info, maybe even some books (hint hint ;) ) which he might be willing to share. Mr. Prayitno spent some time with De Jong sensei. So there must be some infos he has.

Keikai
3rd April 2007, 08:34
It is possible some Pencak Silat was used but I would say not very wide spread. It took de Jong sensei quite awhile after WW II to be accepted into a Pencak style. He was permitted to train under the head of the style as a private student but not to join the main group for a long time. When he did he found that a number of the members had taken oaths not to cut their hair until the Dutch had been driven out of Indonesia. I believe that he was the only European who trained in that school.

Ben could you pass on my regards to Mr Prayitno when you see him please.

johan smits
3rd April 2007, 13:32
Pentjak silat has been in Holland maybe for a longer period than most people think. Johan van der Bruggen learned jujutsu, kendo and judo in Surabaya before WWII from mr Taiji Nakada. Van der Bruggen actually taught judo and kendo prior to WWII in Holland.
In a familyarchive I have found an unpublished manuscript by Van der Bruggen, including photographs of jujutsu- and judotechniques from the late '30's early 40's.
In this manuscript he also writes about pentjak silat, he mentions the Setia Hatti style and describes how it is more than just a fighting system - it is also a brotherhood of practitioners.
According to one of his pre-war students Van der Bruggen also taught pentjak silat in Rotterdam. This came as a surprise to me, it was never mentioned anywhere. However looking at the exercises Van der Bruggen taught as part of his jujutsu style in later years (much later actually) I could see rudiments of dempok and sepok (low positions) of pentjak silat. These positions are quite peculiar to pentjak silat and I have never seem them in any jujutsustyle I know of.
So although I am not totally convinced I will keep an open mind on the idea.

best,

Johan Smits

Keikai
3rd April 2007, 13:50
Interesting. I believe that Setia Hatti is the style de Jong sensei trained and "graded" in. He achieved the equivilant of a 6th dan. It was a brotherhood and the head was Bapak Sohardie (Not sure of this spelling Ben can help there). I met some of the people de Jong trained with along with Bapak Sohardie in 1987 while on a trip to Indonesia.

de Jong sensei introduced some techniques from the Silat into the ju jutsu and more of the ju jutsu into the Silat.

johan smits
3rd April 2007, 20:04
Greg, have you any idea what Jan de Jong's father was doing professionally in Indonesia and where?
Many years ago I emailed Jan de Jong with questions about Nakada. He knew (of) him and let me know Nakada was a judoteacher. Since his own teachers the Saito's were not in favor of judo he probably would have mentioned it if Nakada was also a jujutsuteacher. At least that is what I have always believed.
What is always a possiblillity is that Jan de Jong and Johan van der Bruggen knew each other in Indonesia somehow. I have never seen any evidence of this but I will not rule it out.

best for now,

Johan Smits

Keikai
4th April 2007, 09:55
de Jong senior was an engineer and they lived in Semarang on the central north coast of Java. He did projects in that part of the world.

john_lord_b3
9th April 2007, 14:16
Interesting. I believe that Setia Hatti is the style de Jong sensei trained and "graded" in. He achieved the equivilant of a 6th dan. It was a brotherhood and the head was Bapak Sohardie (Not sure of this spelling Ben can help there). I met some of the people de Jong trained with along with Bapak Sohardie in 1987 while on a trip to Indonesia.

de Jong sensei introduced some techniques from the Silat into the ju jutsu and more of the ju jutsu into the Silat.

Soehardie is an old spelling for Suhardi, but I personally thinks that it is still an accepted spelling in Indonesian language.

There was a campaign to purge all influences of Dutch-language in Indonesian language, but it wasn't working. Especially amongst older generations (my parents included), who kept on using Dutch terms and words for things they know. Even today we still eat "pannekoek" and "kaastengels", so what does that tells ya? ;)

For comparison, our 'beloved' ex-president still spells his name "Soeharto".

As for the Setia Hati style, indeed it is more than just a self-defense art, it IS a brotherhood. That's why, when the original group splitted into Setia Hati and SHT (Setia Hati Terate), the members of both organizations became sworn enemy up until today. As late as the 1990s, there were blood feuds and duels between them (especially in Central Java). Let's say that old habits died hard.

john_lord_b3
11th April 2007, 12:50
de Jong sensei introduced some techniques from the Silat into the ju jutsu and more of the ju jutsu into the Silat.

There were some cross-influencing during and after WWII. Some Silat styles adapted Mr. Prayitno's Jujutsu Waza into their syllabus. This includes the KPS NUSANTARA of Mr. Oong Maryono.

However, we should not forget that there are already "jujutsu-like" techniques in Silat, developed long before Jujutsu were introduced in Indonesia. Here are some of them, in the attachments. Comments?

johan smits
11th April 2007, 13:16
Hi Ben,

I think you are correct about jujutsulike techniques being already in pentjak silat long before jujutsu was practiced in Indonesia. Since original jujutsu and pentjak silat are both fighting arts and not sports I think it is highly likely that there are similar ideas and techniques to be found in these systems.

When you compare systems from different countries I think very simply said, the things in common are dictated by natural laws - how human beings are constructed, etc. The differences came into being because of cultural/historical/geological differences of those countries.

I remember - many years ago - showing one of Draeger's books on pentjak silat (together with Chambers I think?) to my Chinese Xing Yi Quan teacher. This teacher was a professional teacher from mainland China. He said the techniques in the book looked like old Chinese martial arts very much.
Same story I quess.

Best,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
11th April 2007, 13:24
Very well said Johan san. In fact, the Silat technique shown above is from the Paseban style, and it WAS considered as a Kuntao system, which means it was once a Silat system practiced by Chinese people who lived in Betawi (Batavia, old Jakarta, 19th century). Gradually it became absorbed by the Betawi natives, and became known as a Silat system. Back then, Kuntao and Silat were so similar, there was a saying "If the practitioner is Chinese, we call it Kuntao, if the practitioner is Betawi people, we call it Silat".

Paseban, Sitembak and Kwitang system (mentioned in Draeger sensei's book btw) clearly shown Chinese influences. The "fist in hand" salute can be found in all three systems.

BTW, I am not a guru Silat Paseban. I am just a student. :)

There was a very funny story, the first time I met the current Paseban grandmaster, Pak Cacang. He watched me doing Wado-ryu paired Kata, and he told me "looks like Silat Paseban". Then he showed me Paseban's kembangan berpasangan (paired Kata), and it was my turn to say "looks like Wado" :D

Same ol' story repeated over and over again in different parts of the world ;)

Keikai
12th April 2007, 01:39
de Jong sensei visited Indonesia a number of times after he moved here and on one trip he came across a Silat system that looked very much like Aikido. They said they had never heard of Aikido. I believe that it was called the "White Crocodile" system.

de Jong said that he trained Kuntao for awhile and I do know one of our shodan techniques comes from that time. He said that Kuntao was basically the Indonesian term for Kung Fu. I think he simplified the explanation for us poor non Indonesians.

john_lord_b3
12th April 2007, 13:08
De Jong sensei was right. Older generation of Chinese-Indonesians call their art "Kuntao". Only in the 70s-80s that the term Kungfu and Wushu replaced Kuntao entirely, thanks to Bruce Lee and Chen Lung (Jackie Chen) films.

john_lord_b3
25th April 2007, 12:01
This is another interesting book. Actually it's rather recent because I remember finding this book in mid 1980s in a large bookstore in Jakarta. It was written by Siswojo, published by KARYA ANDA Surabaya.

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_preface.JPG
http"//www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_preface.JPG

Interestingly, the name Hoshino and Tsutsumi came up and are described as "teachers" of Prof. Kano :)

This technique below must be very familiar to Greg Palmer san :)

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_nage.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_nage.JPG

These two techniques below are not very Judo-ish.

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_tehodoki.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_tehodoki.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_ashigarami.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_ashigarami.JPG

Whaddya think, friends?

Keikai
25th April 2007, 12:31
Hi Ben

The techniques are similar to some of ours but not quite the same. The hand grip technique is not done this way with us.

They are interesting never the less.

johan smits
25th April 2007, 13:31
Hi Ben,

They are certainly interesting and they do remind me of the let's say "old school" jujutsu from Holland.
Especially the last technique was seen in almost all old jujutsuschools overhere.
First one is also a good one. Either the defender makes a first move or he covers the attackers left-arm attack and then moves. Pretty solid.

Like the drawings also by the way.

Best,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
25th April 2007, 13:49
Glad you like it Johan san. If you want it just let me know, I will make a copy or find a copy and send to you. BTW, have you found the book you want to send to me? Books do get lost easily in storerooms. I am sure I have more of 1950s-1960s books. In fact I think I have one (circa 1964) which is the standard lower belt syllabus of the JCI (the school affiliated with Mr. De Jong in Indonesia).. but I can't seem to find it. I held it in my own hands just months ago.. but now I can't seem to find it. Sometimes life likes to play jokes on us.

john_lord_b3
25th April 2007, 13:53
This is another interesting book. Actually it's rather recent because I remember finding this book in mid 1980s in a large bookstore in Jakarta. It was written by Siswojo, published by KARYA ANDA Surabaya.

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_preface.JPG
http"//www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_preface.JPG

Interestingly, the name Hoshino and Tsutsumi came up and are described as "teachers" of Prof. Kano :)

This technique below must be very familiar to Greg Palmer san :)

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_nage.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_nage.JPG

These two techniques below are not very Judo-ish.

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_tehodoki.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_tehodoki.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_ashigarami.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/siswojo_book_ashigarami.JPG

Whaddya think, friends?

I am requoting my posts again because this thread has turned into a new page. This is just so that my E-Budo friends can see it without turning to the previous page. Hope this is OK with the moderators.

johan smits
25th April 2007, 13:59
Hi Ben,

You bet I found the books. Gonna sent them next friday to you.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
25th April 2007, 14:06
Thank you friend. Now, back to the book which we discuss. Does the name Hoshino and Tsutsumi as quoted in Siswojo's book sounds familiar to you? Were the same names (and techniques) mentioned/depicted in Higashi's "Complete Kano Jiujitsu" book?

johan smits
25th April 2007, 14:11
The names do sound familiar. Certainly the first and the third technique could be found in the complete kanojiujitsu (from memory that is).
Maybe the second also.
But then that may not be so strange, the complete kanojiujitsu had probably a very wide distribution and there has been several reprints over a long period of time.
The book has probably been very influential.

best,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
25th April 2007, 15:07
How good is this Kano Jiujitsu book? Is it plausible that some people can use it as a base to develop their own "Jiujitsu" system?

johan smits
25th April 2007, 15:12
Ben,

The book was in my opinion very influential. It is quite a hefty volume which shows pretty old fashioned jujutsu. Although it is quite a while ago that I seriously studied it - I would say it is not very likely - photographs being what they were then. The book is not very clear, when you got a good background in jujutsu you can figure things out but as a "self study book" so to speak it does not seem very good to me.


best,

Johan Smits

john_lord_b3
25th April 2007, 15:33
Okies then. The reason I asked is because not long after Siswojo published his book, another person published a "Silat" book whose pictures seemed to be copied directly from Siswojo's book, and then a couple of years later a "Ju-Jitsu" group published a book whose pictures seemed to be copied directly from the "Silat" book... well you got the picture :)

In any case, I would love to read the Higashi book. Too bad Kinokuniya in Jakarta never have it on display. I can't seem to find that book anywhere.

johan smits
25th April 2007, 15:46
Ben,

the book is still around in various prints. Try ebay or amazon.com and don't pay too much money for it. The reprint without the part on atemiwaza is still good enough. Nothing profound about the atemi part in the original edition.

best,

Johan Smits

Keikai
26th April 2007, 09:15
Hi Ben

Barnes and Noble have a number of copies of The Complete Kano Jiujitsu

This is the address of the page to get to the list. If not try http://barnesandnoble.com and do a search.

The 1st edition copies are just a little too rich for my bank account.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/used/titleresults.asp?r=1&x=33&PEAN=%5Bsearch+for+ISBN%5D&PRC=&z=y&TTL=the+complete+kano+jiujitsu+&CNT=&y=8

john_lord_b3
27th April 2007, 07:21
whoa, expensive! :(

Robert Reinberger
28th April 2007, 18:15
Ben,

some more small pieces, regarding your original question. They also show that to determine what was taught to European military personnel means to determine the styles of the early-generations of Japanese Jujutsu-teachers in the west, as some of them and their students were also responsible for introducing Jujutsu to the armies of the different European nations.

Great Britain:
1905: "A most interesting exhibition of Ju-Jitsu was given at the Chelsea Barracks on January 27th. < ... > This was demonstrated at the Chelsea Barracks, where young English, Irish, and Scotch soldiers of fine physique and plenty of pluck were disposed of one after the other by Japanese featherweights." - The British Medical Journal, February 4th, 1905.

The "Japanese featherweights" mentioned in that article probably where from the staff of Tani's school in London (Messrs. Miyake, Tani, Eida and Kanaya) and possibly included Mr. Uyenishi. I don't know, if this exhibition resulted in any instructions directly, but in

1908: Jujutsu was taught to the Army Physical Training Corps, which at that time was responsible for bayonet fighting in addition to physical training, boxing, fencing and gymnastics, by Uyenishi Sadakazu at the Army Gymnastic HQ Aldershot and at Shorncliffe Camp.

Later British teachers like Bruce Sutherland (student of Yukio Tani), Leopold McLaglan (whose technical provenance is in question), and others took over the task of instructing the British Army.

Germany:
1906: By order of the German Emperor, Ono Akitaro was hired to teach at Militärturnanstalt Berlin, Scharnhorststraße 4, and at Hauptkadettenanstalt Lichterfelde.

1913: Erich Rahn (student of Higashi Katsukuma and others) instructed at Militärturnanstalt Berlin.

1930: Erich Rahn instructed at Heeressportschule Wünsdorf

Austria-Hungary (later: Austria):
1910: Japanese teachers instructed aboard "SMS Kaiserin Elisabeth" in Nagasaki and Kobe (Yes, Austria-Hungary indeed had a navy until the end of WWI !).

In the period between the two wars Prosper Buchelle taught close-combat to the soldiers of the Austrian army. Buchelle was a successful starter at the Jiu-Jitsu competitions at the 2nd Worker's Olympics 1931 in Vienna. He had learned from Heinz Kowalski, who in turn was a student of Franz Sager (alias "Europäischer Meister Willy Curly") who had opened the first freestanding Jiu-Jitsu school in Vienna in 1919. Regarding Sager it is said, that he had gained his knowledge in Japan, but no details (date, style, teacher) are known.

Italy:
It seems, that within the Italian armed forced it also was the navy, that first of all got into contact with Jujutsu as early as 1906.
http://web.tiscali.it/liviotoschi/storia%20del%20judo/storia%20del%20judo.htm (http://web.tiscali.it/liviotoschi/storia%20del%20judo/storia%20del%20judo.htm)
http://www.ginobianchi.it/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=2

France:
It is known, that french soldiers applied Jujutsu-techniques in WWI. However, I don't recall any mention of who introduced them to the French army.

Best regards,
Robert

john_lord_b3
29th April 2007, 05:46
Thank you very much for the info, Robert san!

One question: did Mr. Eric Rahn studied in Japan with Higashi and Onno Akitaro senseis, or did he studied in Japan, like Mr. Barton-Wright?

Robert Reinberger
29th April 2007, 09:13
Thank you very much for the info, Robert san!

One question: did Mr. Eric Rahn studied in Japan with Higashi and Onno Akitaro senseis, or did he studied in Japan, like Mr. Barton-Wright?All of Erich Rahn's training happened in Germany, to the best of my knowledge.

john_lord_b3
2nd May 2007, 04:34
From what we have gathered so far, I think it isn't too far-off if we say that many of the pioneers in Europe studied Jujutsu with instructors who were sent by the government. In that case, we can try to find which schools are the most prominent or has the best connections with the Japanese government in the late 1890s/early 1900s. Other than Kodokan Kano-ryu Jiu-Jitsu, what other schools you have in mind, Robert san?

Robert Reinberger
6th May 2007, 01:38
From what we have gathered so far, I think it isn't too far-off if we say that many of the pioneers in Europe studied Jujutsu with instructors who were sent by the government. In that case, we can try to find which schools are the most prominent or has the best connections with the Japanese government in the late 1890s/early 1900s. Other than Kodokan Kano-ryu Jiu-Jitsu, what other schools you have in mind, Robert san?Ben,

I don't know if there were many instructors "sent by the government". The Tani brothers, Yamamoto and Uenishi clearly were brought over by Barton-Wright. Others came privatly financed, at their own discretion, to try their luck in the west. Again others came to study at western universities.

Regarding Kodokan Judo I'm not sure what exactly made it "official". There can be no doubt about the successful diffusion of the style in Japan at that time. But was there anything like an official resolution or imperial edict to make Kodokan Judo the "Official Jiu-Jitsu of the Japanese Government", as Hancock and Higashi called it in their book of 1905? I don't know, but I doubt it.

On the other hand, talking about specific styles or schools, I think Kodokan Judo might have been the closest one could come to anything "official" in this regard.

Talking about organizations, I think it wasn't the Kodokan, but the Dai Nippon Butokukai in Kyoto, which since the time of it's founding in 1895 had to be regarded as the most official governing body of martial arts in Japan, and Kodokan Judo was only one of the arts practiced and promoted by that organization. Therefore, knowing the styles and teachers that were on the top within the DNBK during that time, would probably shed some light on the question. Other than that, we can only look at those publications of the time, that mention certain schools:

In his preface to "Japanese Physical Training" H. Irving Hancock wrote on Oct. 23, 1903: "There are in Japan, to-day, some six different systems of jiu-jitsu taught.", and he also mentioned, talking about the author (himself): "Subsequently he studied in Nagasaki, under Inouye San, instructor of Jiu-jitsu in the Police department of that city." This teacher is also mentioned in later books by Hancock.

In 1904, Yaekichi Yabe, described as "formerly of the Ten Shin Ryu School" wrote in his free lesson-booklet, with which he advertised his 5-volume course of "The Yabe School of Jiu-Jitsu": "The course consists of ninety-five illustrated lessons fully covering every phase of Jiu-Jitsu as taught in the Ten-Shin Ryu School of Japan."

In "Jiu-Jitsu" written by Risher W. Thornberry in 1905 the author demonstrated, together with Kisshoku Inouye, instructor to the Nagasaki police, the system of the Ten Shin Ryu school, that was "taught to over two thousend officers and soldiers now at the front and also to the police of Nagasaki of whom Prof. Inouye is the official instructor."

Here you have three different authors, with very different backgrounds, and all of them refered to a certain "Ten Shin Ryu". But what school was this Ten Shin Ryu really? Some people seem to think, that it was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. On the other hand, there were several discussions at different sites on the net, and current students of this school under Kubota Sensei seem to decline an interrelationship with their school.

Perhaps there was still a connection, but with another branch of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, I don't know. However, the pictures in Thornberry's book were "Photographs by Tenyokwan, No. 41, Motoshikkui-machi, Nagasaki, Japan", and at least the name of that institute seems to be another indication pointing to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

However, this school called "Ten Shin Ryu" seems to have been reasonably prominent in the late 1890s/early 1900s, to qualify for being mentioned in an answer to your demand. The question is: what school exactly was this "Ten Shin Ryu"?

Regards,

Joseph Svinth
6th May 2007, 07:26
J.J. O'Brien was also associated with this fellow Inouye, from Nagasaki. O'Brien brought Inouye to the USA, circa September 1900. (See Sandusky Daily Star, September 27, 1900; it's available online via NewspaperArchive.com.) So, this also links into what Theodore Roosevelt was doing before he met Yamashita.

Risher Thornberry later taught jujutsu to US Army soldiers at Camp Lewis, Washington, and to white Americans in Los Angeles after WWI. S.R. Linck, of Portland, Oregon, was associated with him. O'Brien, meanwhile, spent the next thirty years teaching US policemen; there is even a photo of him teaching Chicago detectives, to include a lieutenant closely associated with mobster Dion O'Bannion...

More research is required into all these guys, as their methods represent strains that did not make the official histories, yet still influenced modern US judo, WWI and WWII era military combatives, and pre-WWII police defensive tactics.

Robert Reinberger
6th May 2007, 09:42
J.J. O'Brien was also associated with this fellow Inouye, from Nagasaki. O'Brien brought Inouye to the USA, circa September 1900. (See Sandusky Daily Star, September 27, 1900; it's available online via NewspaperArchive.com.)And Inouye also met Hancock there again, as in "Japanese Physical Training" (1904) Hancock wrote: "When Inouye San visited this country the author went once more under the tuition of that veteran, who is considered to be one of the best instructors of Japan."

Robert Reinberger
6th May 2007, 20:42
Of course, we have also to take into consideration the schools that were represented at the famous Kyoto conference at the Butokuden on July 24, 1906, under the tutelage of Jigoro Kano, to codifiy the Judo Kata. They were:

Fusen Ryu, Kodokan, Kyushin Ryu, Miura Ryu, Sekiguchi Ryu, Shiten Ryu, Sosuisitsu Ryu, Takeuchi Ryu, Takeuchi Santo Ryu and Yoshin Ryu.

Here is the picture. (http://bestjudo.com/article15.shtml)

George Kohler
7th May 2007, 06:52
Here you have three different authors, with very different backgrounds, and all of them refered to a certain "Ten Shin Ryu". But what school was this Ten Shin Ryu really? Some people seem to think, that it was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. On the other hand, there were several discussions at different sites on the net, and current students of this school under Kubota Sensei seem to decline an interrelationship with their school.

The name "Inouye" is probably the older romaji version of "Inoue." If this is the case then I am surprised that Kubota Sensei's branch is not claiming any relationship, since there was a 4th generation student named Inoue Keitaro (full name is something like Inoue Keitaro Yanagi Tamatsuisai Minamoto no Naofusa). He was a student of the 3rd soke, Iso Matauemon Masatomo. Known student of Inoue is Miyamoto Hanzo.

Joseph Svinth
7th May 2007, 08:17
Some of the newspaper accounts *do* call him K. Inoue.

john_lord_b3
7th May 2007, 10:30
The name "Inouye" is probably the older romaji version of "Inoue." If this is the case then I am surprised that Kubota Sensei's branch is not claiming any relationship, since there was a 4th generation student named Inoue Keitaro (full name is something like Inoue Keitaro Yanagi Tamatsuisai Minamoto no Naofusa). He was a student of the 3rd soke, Iso Matauemon Masatomo. Known student of Inoue is Miyamoto Hanzo.

Isn't Miyamoto sensei a teacher of Sato Kinbei sensei?

john_lord_b3
7th May 2007, 10:34
Ben,

I don't know if there were many instructors "sent by the government". The Tani brothers, Yamamoto and Uenishi clearly were brought over by Barton-Wright. Others came privatly financed, at their own discretion, to try their luck in the west. Again others came to study at western universities.

On the other hand, talking about specific styles or schools, I think Kodokan Judo might have been the closest one could come to anything "official" in this regard.


That's what I meant. Thank you very much for the confirmation Robert san.



Talking about organizations, I think it wasn't the Kodokan, but the Dai Nippon Butokukai in Kyoto, which since the time of it's founding in 1895 had to be regarded as the most official governing body of martial arts in Japan, and Kodokan Judo was only one of the arts practiced and promoted by that organization. Therefore, knowing the styles and teachers that were on the top within the DNBK during that time, would probably shed some light on the question.


Maybe students of Mr. Kam Hock Hoe (Malaysia) can chime in here, because Prof. Kam is said to have been graduated from the Jujutsu program in the Butokukai.



Here you have three different authors, with very different backgrounds, and all of them refered to a certain "Ten Shin Ryu". But what school was this Ten Shin Ryu really? Some people seem to think, that it was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. On the other hand, there were several discussions at different sites on the net, and current students of this school under Kubota Sensei seem to decline an interrelationship with their school.

The question is: what school exactly was this "Ten Shin Ryu"?

Regards,

Ueno Takashi sensei's Ryuha was "Shinto Tenshin-ryu" before WWII.. perhaps Kohler san can dig more about this?

George Kohler
7th May 2007, 14:16
Isn't Miyamoto sensei a teacher of Sato Kinbei sensei?

Yes, he was a teacher of Sato Kinbei Sensei.



Ueno Takashi sensei's Ryuha was "Shinto Tenshin-ryu" before WWII.. perhaps Kohler san can dig more about this?

As far as I can tell, during that time period it was only in the family.

john_lord_b3
9th May 2007, 15:28
Who inherited the Miyamoto Hanzo line, and has anyone from that line taught foreigners yet? Maybe Sato sensei himself had taught foreigners in the past (pre WWII) ?

George Kohler
9th May 2007, 16:34
There were several people that inherited Miyamoto's line. The ones that I know are Sato Sensei and Aimiya Kazusaburo. I think Shibata Koichi received menkyo kaiden from Aimiya.

As for Shibata teaching any foreigners, he teaches a small group and I don't think he has any foreigners.

As far as I know, Sato Sensei did not teach any foreigners prior to WWII. He was mostly involved in studying/learning.

john_lord_b3
10th May 2007, 07:37
Glad to know that the Miyamoto line survives. Who inherited the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu from Sato sensei then? Is there any possibilities of foreigners coming to Sato sensei's Dojo and learn the TSR from his inheritors?

Robert Reinberger
11th May 2007, 14:46
Please allow me to carry on with an aspect of a shift that occured earlier on this thread: the question, which was the original style of Tsutsumi Masao and Higashi Katsukuma.

Higashi always talked about "Hoshino and Tsutsumi" as important teachers, who had influenced the development of (Kodokan) Judo aka "Kano Jiu-Jitsu". At the May 1905 issue of "The Cosmopolitan" (this article is online at EJMAS) (http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm) he disclosed some more details about this men:

"Judo – as jujitsu is oftener called at home – spread all over the country; at Kumamoto was Hoshino, and at Kagoshima, Tsutsumi was the acknowledged master. And Tsutsumi, the Kagoshima master, was the first who extended the sphere of judo and included therein many gymnastic exercises. And those holds and tricks which he taught have been from his day called the simple tricks. Mr. Kano, who is at the head of the Kano school of Tokyo to-day, took up judo where Tsutsumi left off, and added a number of exercises. These largely form the simple tricks of the third department of judo."

The same source quoted him stating:
"Some two hundred years ago in the city of Kyoto, there lived a master of jujitsu called Suzuki. There he opened a training hall; and history points to that as the beginning of scientific jujitsu in Nippon."
The editor at EJMAS noted: "This describes the history of Higashi’s own system rather than the history of jujutsu."

As we know already, the "Tsutsumi" mentioned, was Higashi's teacher Tsutsumi Masao, and, according to the article mentioned above, obviously he taught at Kagoshima. We speculated about the possibilites of him belonging to Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu, and how little there is available to support this assumption.

Therefore I thought about trying a different approach, that also led to another working-hypothesis: Why, of all the teachers of different Jujutsu styles, that had contributed to the formulation of Kodokan Judo, and still did, at the time Higashi made his comments, did he only mention Hoshino and Tsutsumi in addition to Kano Shihan? Is it possible, that Hoshino and Tsutsumi (and therefore Higashi) all were from the same style, and Higashi was always mentioning only them, ignoring all the others for this reason?

If we take into account this possibility for a moment, the next question undoubtedly would be: Which style was it? Here the 1906 Butokukai meeting in Kyoto comes into play, as one of the three highest ranking teachers (beside Kodokan Hanshi Kano Jigoro from Tokyo and Yoshin Ryu Hanshi Totsuka Eibi of Chiba ) at this event was Hoshino Kumon of Kumamoto, indicated as Shiten Ryu Hanshi. To me it seems, that obviously it was the same Hoshino as mentioned by Higashi, or a person from the same family, at least.

Therefore, if it was Shiten (or Shi Ten, or Shi-Ten) Ryu, that was taught by Hoshino, was it also Shiten Ryu that was taught by Tsutsumi (and Higashi)? And was it perhaps this school, that was founded by somebody named Suzuki in Kyoto around 1700? At least Kumamoto and Kagoshima are located in neigbouring provinces at Kyushu. I have started an additional thread with this question(s) already, as well as a thread regarding the possible relationship of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Tenshin Ryu.

What else do we know about Shiten Ryu? Rennis Buchner wrote in "The Iaido Newsletter January 2000": (http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_buchner1_0200.htm)
"Another important family in Hoki ryu's history is the Hoshino family from Kumamoto (in Kyushu). In fact Kumamoto was (and still is) a major center of Hoki ryu and all of the lineage's of current Hoki ryu groups I have seen to date trace themselves back to Kumamoto. The Hoshino family also was deeply involved in Shiten ryu Jujutsu and Yoshin ryu Naginata jutsu and if one watches the Budokan Kobudo series video on Hoki ryu (which features the Hoshino lineage), you will in fact see a few Shiten ryu jujutsu techniques as well."

Further, Steve Delaney mentioned in another e-budo thread (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=350905&postcount=2) (the Kuroda-han having also existed at Kyushu):
"There must be loads of jujutsu/yawara ryuha left in the Kuroda-han area. The ones I know that are still extant are Ise Jitoku Tenshin-ryu, Sosuishi-ryu, Shiten-ryu (Hoshino-ha) and Takenouchi Santo-ryu. There is also a dojo in Fukuoka that teaches Jigo Tenshin-ryu, that still teaches battojutsu, but I'm not sure if they teach the Ise Jitoku yawara though."

And here: (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=404841&postcount=3)
"The Higo-ryu Taijutsu No Kata does not come from Shinto Rokugo-ryu. Higo-ryu Taijutsu no kata is an amalgamation of several koryu techniques from, Aida-ryu, Kyushin-ryu,Shi ten-ryu, Takenouchi Santo-ryu, Tenka Muso-ryu and Akiyama Yoshin-ryu."

And here: (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=404856&postcount=5 )
"Historically, Higo-han or Higo No Kuni is the feudal name for what is now modern day Kumamoto prefecture. There are ten kata. It was formalized by the Kumamoto Judo renmei (Most of the higher ranking members at the time being koryu jujutsuka) in order to preserve the older methods of koryu jujutsu. ( ... ) (Higo-ryu Taijutsu No Kata is a kata for judoka in Kumamoto so that they can learn the geographical cultural roots of judo in their prefecture)."

Finally, on the website of the ULU (University of London Union) Jitsu Club, I found the following text: (http://www.geocities.com/killerpedes/history08.html)
"For example, Ju-jitsu schools of Kumamoto region (Yoshin-ryu Ju-jitsu, Takeuchi Santo-ryu Ju-jitsu, Kyushin-ryu Tai-jitsu, Tenka Muso-ryu Toride, Shiten-ryu Kumiuchi, Aida-ryu Kogusoku) decided to form their own style of techniques by compiling "Higo-ryu Tai-jitsu no Kata" in 1902. Higo is the old name of Kumamoto region, and Tai-jitsu is the other name of Ju-jitsu. The motive behind was to preserve the originality of their styles from ever increasing popularity of Kodokan Judo."

The last point also seems to match what Tsutsumi Masao is thought to have done some years earlier: contributing to the syllabus of Kodokan Judo, but without switching over to the Kodokan system completely and trying to maintain his own style instead.

At the website of the Nippon Budokan (http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkou/html_1/30.html ) we can see, that Shiten Ryu was demonstrated recently at the 30th All Japan Traditional Martial Ways (Kobudo) Demonstrations on February 11, 2007:
"27 四天流星野派柔術 Shiten-ryu hoshinoha jujutsu (combat art) 熊 本 Kumamoto 13:58~14:06"

With the Shiten Ryu, as well as the Hoshino family still around and active, I think it must be possible to prove or disprove the working-hypothesis.

What do you all think?

Regards,

john_lord_b3
11th May 2007, 15:04
Dear Robert san, EXCELLENT detective works!

From your findings above, we can have several conjectures.

One of the things that I can come up with, is as follows.

The idea of making a committee and selecting techniques might have been started by the Kodokan. But somehow I feel that Prof. Kano was not the only one who had such ideas. It is plausible that many other Jujutsu teachers might have had the same ideas as well.

At that time, the prospect of going to Western countries and making a career as Jujutsu teacher could have been a strong motivation for creating a new syllabus, specifically designed for modern self-defense. This might have crossed the minds of Higashi sensei.

Most of the time, when we think of Jujutsu in the West, we think of the Ryuha's which are officially "incorporated" into the Kodokan: Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu.

However, your detective work here indicated that a third possibility might have come into play: of Shiten-ryu exponents being inspired to come up with their own "gendai syllabus" and went on to teach foreigners.

That's about what I can came up for now. I am notorious for having a low IQ, so please give me some more time to write a better post.

Many thanks!

johan smits
13th May 2007, 15:55
Well Robert,

Your last post is what E-budo should be about when you ask me :)
Exellent!! - and we should lollow it up immediately.
It would be best if Steve Delaney would help out a bit - I think this is a subject he is very knowledgeable about.

Gotta run now.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

jdostie
13th May 2007, 16:36
Nice post by Mr. Reinberger. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put together a family tree of sorts for the various Ryus. My particular interest it to see the relationship between Aiki Jututsu (Daito Ryu in particular), Kano Jujitsu, and the other Jujutsu Ryu.

My guess is that there is such a chart - at least a 'tentative' chart out there that might have some 'dotted line' relationship for the schools where the relationship is questionable.

john_lord_b3
14th May 2007, 18:02
Daito-ryu and Judo relationship:

Takeda sensei and Kano were good friends. Takeda taught Uyeshiba. Kano taught Tomiki Kenji and Mochizuki Minoru. Kano sent Tomiki sensei and Mochizuki sensei to train under Uyeshiba. I was told, that the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu (which was completed in 1956) was designed by Tomiki sensei, partially inspired by his Daito-ryu training with Uyeshiba sensei. BTW, the certificates which Uyeshiba sensei gave to Tomiki and Mochizuki (and also to Konishi Yasuhiro sensei) still says "Daito-ryu" in it.

Off course, my memory is rusty, so I could have been mistaken.

Simon Keegan
14th May 2007, 22:19
Mochizuki was awarded the Mokuroku in Daito Ryu but I think Tomiki came much later and studied Aikido rather than Daito Ryu.
You are correct both Mochizuki and Tomiki trained with both Kano and Ueshiba.
Mochizuki's main Judo teachers was Kyuso Mifune and Toku Sanbo ("The devil of the Kodokan") and his Jujutsu teacher was Sanjuro Oshima.

Rennis
13th June 2007, 18:57
.....With the Shiten Ryu, as well as the Hoshino family still around and active, I think it must be possible to prove or disprove the working-hypothesis.


The Hoshino family actually has more or less vanished. The last known Hoshino head had moved to Osaka, taught Hoki ryu iai there very quietly and has since passed on (when exactly I'm not sure. sometime in the 80's or early 90's I believe). The iai appears to have passed to one of his students, but what happened to any of the other arts the family did isn't widely known.

The Shiten ryu Hoshino ha group above is most likely a group in Kumamoto that is "outside of the family" if you will. I don't remember all the details exactly, but I seem to recall they were related to Hoshino Kumon, who was the head three generations back and was very involved in the jujutsu side of things (even rumored to have taught Jigoro Kano when he was younger for awhile), and then maybe fully licensed by his son Hoshino Ryuta (two generations back). The group has a website in Japanese which should be easy to find in a search.

That said there were at least three, if not more, Shiten ryu lines active in Higo/Kumamoto. I don't have my notes on me right now, but as I recall some focused more on the kenjutsu parts, some more on the jujutsu (the Hoshino family) and at least one group focused on the full system as it originally was. Are any of them still around? I have no idea, I've been meaning to go down to Kumamoto for more research for years now, but life has just been too busy. Probably your best single stop source book for this area of research would be the "Higo Budoshi" which gives a good overview of everything budo in the area up through the Meiji period and maybe a bit into the very early Showa period.

For what its worth,
Rennis Buchner

Robert Reinberger
13th June 2007, 22:34
Dear Rennis, thank you very much for the further informations and clarifications you provided. In fact, since I've posted the sentence you quoted, I asked myself if I may have been a little to optimistic regarding the Hoshino family itself. However - and that are the good news - your comments confirm that there are still chances to learn more about Shiten Ryu, its Hoshino ha, and to clarify the questions at hand.

Best regards,

Jason Couch
19th June 2007, 19:05
J.J. O'Brien was also associated with this fellow Inouye, from Nagasaki. O'Brien brought Inouye to the USA, circa September 1900. (See Sandusky Daily Star, September 27, 1900; it's available online via NewspaperArchive.com.) So, this also links into what Theodore Roosevelt was doing before he met Yamashita.


They arrived in California in January 1900, around the 20th or so IIRC.

Robert Reinberger
3rd August 2007, 16:24
... Risher Thornberry later taught jujutsu to US Army soldiers at Camp Lewis, Washington, and to white Americans in Los Angeles after WWI. S.R. Linck, of Portland, Oregon, was associated with him. ... Follow-up on "Tenshin-Ryu":

In S. R. Linck's book "Combat Jiu Jitsu for Offense and Defense" (1943), his well-known Diploma form Risher W. Thornberry is pictured. Thornberry wrote on it, on May 6th, 1935:

"... The authority for granting and signing this Diploma by the undersigned is -

1. A membership in the ancient Society of the TEN SHIN RYU. ..."

To me, that could be an indication, that Tenshin Ryu was still existing and active in 1935, thirty years after it's mention in so many books.

Regards,