Kodachi versus Shoto?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Is there a difference between a kodachi & a shoto? I was using my kodachi in MJER practice, but when I brought it to another dojo for practice, that sensei said it was a shoto, & that I needed to bring a kodachi.

I can't find any difference between them! Is this just a case of how you read the Kanji, or are there really two separate weapons? If they are different, what is the difference??

[Douglas Wylie]

小太刀= kodachi= short sword; small sword
小= little; small
太= plump; thick; big around
刀= sword; saber; knife

小刀= shoto= small knife; short sword
小= little; small
刀= sword; saber; knife

太刀= tachi= long sword

I'd ask the sensei for clarification. Maybe ask where one might obtain an acceptable kodachi.

I thought they were the same thing, myself.

Just to throw in some more to muddy up the water.

Tanto= 短刀= short sword; dagger; dirk
短= short
刀= sword; saber; knife

Wakizashi=脇差 = short sword
脇= armpit; the other way; another place; flank; supporting role
差= distinction; difference; variation; discrepancy; margin; balance

Then there are-
Kowakizashi
Chuwakizashi
Owakizashi
Maezashi
Hamidashi
Kaikan
Aikuchi
Koshigatana
Yoroidoshi

[Aozora]

I'm not really sure myself, Ken. Doug spells out the kanji up there, and I suspect it really has to do with what each school calls them.

For instance, wakizashi and maezashi--from my common understanding, the wakizashi is truly a short sword--the "side companion" as it were. A maezashi is more akin to a tanto. I saw a bunch of guys at a ZNIR embu wearing what looked like wakizashi without tsuba. When I asked my sensei in Japan if it was a wakizashi, he said no, it was a maezashi--wakizashi is for the enemy, maezashi is for myself. Length and appearance wise, they seemed to be the same except for the presence of a tsuba.

I'm really just starting to get into nihonto as a study in and of itself, and it seems like the length and appearance opens a whole can of worms based on school of manufacture, time period, etc. As to a martial weapon, kodachi and shoto seem to be referring to roughly the same thing.

[Fred27]

My own impression, though I dont train with a kodachi in iaijutsu we do use em in SMR, is that the kodachi is shorter than the shoto. Not by alot, but still shorter.

[gendzwil]

Shoto usually refers to the shorter of the two swords in a daisho, the long one being the daito. But I think it's more or less the same thing as kodachi or wakizashi.

In kendo, we call our short bokken the kodachi, but the short shinai used in nito is the shoto. Why? No clue.

[Cassius]

It is my understanding that "wakizashi" refers to the way of wearing the short sword, to the side.

"Maezashi", by that logic, might mean to the front.

My two inferred cents!

[Enfield]

In kendo, we call our short bokken the kodachi, but the short shinai used in nito is the shoto. Why? No clue.And to add to the fun, sometimes, particularly in older stuff, you'll see descriptions of the kendo kata like:

"Kodachi kata (uchidachi wa chouken, shidachi wa tanken)."

"Chouken" and "tanken" mean "long sword" and "short sword", respectively.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Doug just pointed out that Sukotto.com lists both shoto & kodachi on their Web-site, while I noticed that eBogu.com doesn't have a listing at all for kodachi, & only lists shoto. Go figure. Seeing the Kanji is also interesting. Wonder why the Samurai have so many different names for what is essentially the same physical object...?

I honestly had never heard of maezashi before, Neil, but the translation does seem to indicate which direction it's worn, versus the wakizashi (which I've always worn to the front, too). Now I get to ask Sensei to clarify that at our next practice!

[kdlarman]

The reason for so many terms is that these things evolved out over a 1000 year period. And some phrases are used differently in different contexts. And some terms have connotations to mounting styles, some to length, others in reference to other swords.

As an example. Daisho means a "matching" set of "big" and "small" swords. So a katana or a tachi can be a daito. The shoto can be a wakizashi or tanto. Together they're a daisho.

Kaiken is a style of blade and mount. It is usually a short tanto mounted aikuchi style (without tsuba -- aikuchi -- "matching mouths") used primarily by women concealed in an obi sleeve. So it is a short tanto for a woman usually in aikuchi mounts. So a kaiken is an aikuchi which is a tanto. But not all tanto are mounted as aikuchi. Nor are all aikuchi kaiken.

Anyway, the point is that the words in use weren't "made up" all at the same time. In the early days there were no katana -- tachi and nodachi were the daito of the time. But as people starting wearing them in a different style (edge up) with different mounts (kurikata to hold it in place in the obi rather than hung from cords) then the word uchigatana came into existance. And eventually katana came to mean any blade over a certain length. And heck, a tachi from the nambokucho period that is suriage'd and remounted in katana mounts is still a tachi but is also sorta correctly called a katana and a daito depending on context.

Okay, now I'm confused too... ;)

Seriously, it is easy to tie your head in a knot on these things. There are all sorts of subtle differences in words and it just kinda depends on what you're looking at, what context, are you speaking of the mounting or the sword itself, are you speaking of it in relation to something else, and even are you using a term that might also have regional or ryu-ha specific distinctions.

And even after studying those bloody distinctions for a long time a lot of them still get confused in my head as well. But that's how language works when you're speaking about a long, evolving history with lots of subgenres, different threads of styles, etc. Just go with it... ;)

I'm glad I could clear that up... ;)

[kdlarman]

Oh, and fwiw I remember sitting at a token kai one day listening in on an argument that had me giggling away. They were arguing over what constituted a "true" daisho. Did the smith who made the swords need to be the same? Could two blades from the same school or style qualify if the mounts matched? Or did the blades have to be made intentionally as a matched set by the smith? Or could you mix and match similar blades by the same smith? Or is it more about the mounts putting two distinct pieces together into a matching pair? Or does everything have to be made specifically to be a daisho by the original makers? Or did the owner make it a daisho by just putting two blades together? Or was it simply any set worn by a 'real' samurai? Now what makes a 'real' samurai...

You might as well argue about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin... There just isn't an answer because the terms aren't terribly precise to begin with. And without a larger context it is usually impossible to give an authoritative answer.

[Brian Owens]

Very well said, Keith. I completely agree with everything you've said.

Ken, you'll just have to ask the other sensei to describe what size, shape, mountings, etc. he wants you to have for use in his class, since shoto and wakizashi can be synonyms in some contexts but seem to mean different things to him.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Brian, that dojo is thankfully 3,000 miles away from us, & when we go back to Arizona, Linda & I will certainly go practice elsewhere!

Keith, I do appreciate the, umm, clarification (yeah, that's it! :p) on words & meanings evolving over time. Seriously, there are so many English words that have evolved just in the past few generations I've been around that I can definitely understand how weapons usage changed in Japan over a few hundred years, along with the meaning.

I just wonder why certain senseis grin & kindly correct us, while others act like we've committed a major sin...:rolleyes::rolleyes:?

[Brian Owens]

...I just wonder why certain senseis grin & kindly correct us, while others act like we've committed a major sin...:rolleyes::rolleyes:?
In some cases, it's because the latter haven't a clue what they're talking about but think they do.

I remember attending a demonstration in Seattle a few years ago where the "master" explained to the audience that a bokuto was a crude wooden sword, a bokken was a middle-grade wooden sword, and a "bokto" was a fine wooden sword.

I sent him a letter explaining that "bokto" was just a modern pronunciation of bokuto, that it should still be written "bokuto" since there is no seperate "k" in romanized Japanese, and that bokuto and bokken were synonyms.

I never received a reply. I did, however, learn that he is no longer claiming to teach Toyama Ryu under Obata Sensei, as he had been, but is now the "Soke" of "Ishi Yama Ryu."

It figures.

[Douglas Wylie]

how many angels can stand on the head of a pin


42, of course. ;)

[Fred27]

In some cases, it's because the latter haven't a clue what they're talking about but think they do.

I remember attending a demonstration in Seattle a few years ago where the "master" explained to the audience that a bokuto was a crude wooden sword, a bokken was a middle-grade wooden sword, and a "bokto" was a fine wooden sword.

I sent him a letter explaining that "bokto" was just a modern pronunciation of bokuto, that it should still be written "bokuto" since there is no seperate "k" in romanized Japanese, and that bokuto and bokken were synonyms.

I never received a reply. I did, however, learn that he is no longer claiming to teach Toyama Ryu under Obata Sensei, as he had been, but is now the "Soke" of "Ishi Yama Ryu."

It figures.

Heh, sound like you have an entry for the Bafflin Budo section. His site is fun :).

Sorry for thread-drift.

[Aozora]

It makes sense to me, and from some pictures, I'd gotten the idea that the maezashi was worn in the front (while it may seem obvious, I've learned nto to take even things like this for granted).

For me, though, I was pondering it from the POV of use--what was a kodachi/shoto/wakizashi used for vs. that of maezashi/tanto, etc. I got a link from Doug that indicates it could have well been used as a tanto, with the blade designed to slip under <i>do</i> area armour.

[gendzwil]

For me, though, I was pondering it from the POV of use--what was a kodachi/shoto/wakizashi used for vs. that of maezashi/tanto, etc.The tanto were used to open letters, whilst the wakizashi were used to open the bigger packages.

[kdlarman]

The tanto were used to open letters, whilst the wakizashi were used to open the bigger packages.

Actually... I've got this shinto era tanto with fatal hagire up and down the poor thing. I cleaned it up myself and it is one of the best box openers I've ever owned... ;) That thing holds an edge tenaciously (which is probably why it has so many hagire -- really hard yakiba).

[kdlarman]

...but is now the "Soke" of "Ishi Yama Ryu."

It figures.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the phrase "Shin Koryu" on his website... Kinda like "Jumbo Shrimp"...

[Steve Delaney]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the phrase "Shin Koryu" on his website... Kinda like "Jumbo Shrimp"...

There's no such term in the Japanese language. :) It would be 'bimyou' (paradoxical).

[Aozora]

The tanto were used to open letters, whilst the wakizashi were used to open the bigger packages.

You, sir, are the wisest of ninjas.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Ya' know, if I was planning to stab someone wearing yoroi, I'd probably choose something a wee bit longer than a tanto, like a wakizashi/maezaki/kodachi/shoto or whatever we're supposed to call them now.

I guess a tanto would work better than a sharp fingernail, but even if I managed to hit something vital on my opponent, a tanto would likely be pulled from my hands when he fell. Or did they carry multiple tantos for that purpose? And weren't tantos mostly carried by women, anyway?

And I guess I'm not as high-class as you guys who can use a tanto - hagire or not - to cut open boxes. I only have a really cool box-knife that opens & closes with a switch (that's all my wife will let me use...she carries the tanto!).

[pgsmith]

I guess a tanto would work better than a sharp fingernail, but even if I managed to hit something vital on my opponent, a tanto would likely be pulled from my hands when he fell. Or did they carry multiple tantos for that purpose? And weren't tantos mostly carried by women, anyway?
Actually, the way I understand it is that large tanto were the common secondary sword when armor was used. The method was to grapple the opponent, and then stick your tanto into a gap in the armor and stir vigorously. A quick Google search of yoroi doshi should yield some info.

[Andy Watson]

The tanto were used to open letters, whilst the wakizashi were used to open the bigger packages.

Neil

If I could dish you some reputation it would be yours!

[Aozora]

Actually, the way I understand it is that large tanto were the common secondary sword when armor was used. The method was to grapple the opponent, and then stick your tanto into a gap in the armor and stir vigorously. A quick Google search of yoroi doshi should yield some info.

Ed Marshall of Yakiba.com brought a yoroi doshi to show us at the dojo the other day and holy crap is that a chunk of steel! It's like a triangular shape wedge. There'd be no need to stir vigorously--insert, withdraw and let the blood all drain out at once!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Neil, you don't happen to have a photo or two of that yoroi doshi, do you? Sounds pretty intimidating!

[Aozora]

Neil, you don't happen to have a photo or two of that yoroi doshi, do you? Sounds pretty intimidating!

I'll see if Ed does. I can't even begin to express how dangerous it felt--if you told me it could punch through armour rather than find a gap, I'd believe it.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I buy Nihonto from Ed - he always has cool stuff. Just never saw a yoroi doshi.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Okay........... I just ordered one kodachi from Sukotto.com & one shoto from e-Bogu to see if they might show some slight but perceptible difference. Other than the color of the plastic they wrapped them in, they are exactly the same, even the same color wood, & identical tsuba & tsuba-dome. Oh, & the receipts showed different items, too, which I need to keep with each one so I don't bring the wrong weapon to Phoenix again.

Ya' know, I might just send both of them to that Phoenix sensei....:D.

[Brian Owens]

...Ya' know, I might just send both of them to that Phoenix sensei....:D.
If you do, send our site address along, too. I'd love to have him join this discussion to "enlighten" us on the difference between them.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Nah. He might have some trouble sitting down after I send him our directions on how to size them. :D:D

[carl mcclafferty]

Ken:

I have asked a few high ranking Japanese about the term "Wakizashi". They all agreed that that it originally refered to the position of any sword. They all had differing opinions on how it eventually ended up refering to a short sword. If they can't agree on that, I'm out of ideas.

Drop me an PM with AZ Sensei's name. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see you when you're in AZ.

Carl McClafferty

[hyaku]

I think we are dealing with two standards here. That of the smith and that of the way a weapon is mounted and its use. The smith tells me that any blade under one shaku is a shoto. Then again he made me a 1.2 mounted it as a shoto but had to register it as a wakizashi. It's worn to the front and we call them "maezashi"

Shown here below with the same saya with amber laquer

http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hyaku, does that mean when you wore a wakizashi by itself (in a house, for example) that it would be called something different than when you wore it along with your katana in battle? And where does the term "kodachi" come into play in these terms?

Or is the terminology again based on when in historical times you were wearing these weapons?

[Enfield]

Or is the terminology again based on when in historical times you were wearing these weapons?Ask a historian . . . (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0308&L=iaido-l&P=R13184&I=-3)

[hyaku]

Hyaku, does that mean when you wore a wakizashi by itself (in a house, for example) that it would be called something different than when you wore it along with your katana in battle? And where does the term "kodachi" come into play in these terms?

Or is the terminology again based on when in historical times you were wearing these weapons?

Kodachi just refers to a shorter sword. I have heard a shorter sword in the same mount being explained as a companion sword but have seen no Japanese word to describe it.

I have yet to ever hear anyone say the word katana in Japan. Maezashi is just our local way of describing a sword worn to the front. They also call a long sword a Choken.

[Eric Spinelli]

I have yet to ever hear anyone say the word katana in Japan. Maezashi is just our local way of describing a sword worn to the front. They also call a long sword a Choken.

But you live in Kyushu, don't you? That's your problem. If you moved to somewhere where people speak proper Japanese you'd hear all sorts of new words, katana being one of them.

Besides choken (which I've never heard spoken here), what words do you use?

Sincerely,

[ZealUK]

Proper Japanese? うんだもしたん

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'll admit to never having heard the word "choken" before, Hyaku, but although I don't live in Japan, I have dozens of relatives all around Tokyo (& probably a bunch more I haven't yet met) & they have certainly spoken with me about katana on many occasions.

Are we now talking about locale differences in what weapons are called?

[renfield_kuroda]

I suspect saying "katana" is like saying "gun" -- it's a perfectly legit word, but for example LEOs would most like say "firearm" or "pistol" or some other, more specific word depending on the context.
I live and train in the middle of Tokyo and the only people who ever refer to a sword as a katana are non-members.
Depending on the situation, we'll say shinken, tachi, ken, to (as in the counter), etc. or we'll refer to what's supposed to happen with a specific part of the sword i.e. "kissaki-o tobasu" or "monouchi-o ireru", etc.

Regards,
r e n

[Ken-Hawaii]

I just returned from our local Japanese Sword Society meeting, Ren, & darned if we didn't have two katana that were handed around for examination. As we had three shinsa & two togi in attendance, wouldn't you think that they would correct any misnomers on what we were examining? They certainly were quick to correct when someone called a kabuto a "kubato!"

I've been involved in martial arts for well over five decades, & usually don't find so many vagaries for the weapons I've learned. And even on this illustrious forum, members obviously have different experiences & descriptions for what we discuss.

For example, in European fencing, the foil, saber, & epee are pretty well recognized by anyone who has had even a small bit of training. Even going back a few hundred years to the rapier & short swords, there isn't much question on what we're discussing. But the kodachi/shoto/maezashi/wakizashi/etc. question still remains in my mind.

[renfield_kuroda]

I just returned from our local Japanese Sword Society meeting, Ren, & darned if we didn't have two katana that were handed around for examination. As we had three shinsa & two togi in attendance, wouldn't you think that they would correct any misnomers on what we were examining?My experience is entirely in the dojo. No idea what non-practitioners call 'em.

Regards,

r e n

[kdlarman]

Just to add a different perspective...

http://www.city.setouchi.lg.jp/~osa-token/english/bizen/index2.htm

Bizen Osafune Japanese Sword Museum page (in English) on names of different types of swords. They do not hesitate to use katana, wakizashi, and tanto as descriptions. Again, terminology within specific martial contexts seems to have more to do with their history and/or are more descriptive in terms of function or wearing method depending on style in question. Among historians, craftsmen and collectors we tend to group things according to period and also according to more generic descriptives of length, etc. So there should be little surprise that depending on context you will hear all sorts of different terms.

[kdlarman]

And fwiw even that link tends to confuse things like mixing aikuchi (a mounting style for a tanto) with the tanto "blade" itself. A tanto could be mounted aikuchi style, mounted hamidashi, blah, blah, blah. ;) And I'm sure some of the more historically oriented folk would quibble with the description of the tachi as a mainly cavalry weapon... But that has been the standard answer for a long time and it takes time for new research to spread.

[Liam Cognet]

The descriptions on that site say:

Tachi is 2 feet (about 60cm) ... Katana is 2 feet (about 60cm)

Then it says:

It [Katana] needed to be made shorter and flatter than Tachi

In SMR Jodo, we call our long sword a tachi, yet, in some kata where there are drawing techniques, the sword always starts from a blade-upward position.

The short sword we use in SMR Jodo has a blade of about 15 inches (about 38cm). We call this sword a kodachi.

It may be easier to call a sword by it's length and mountings. For example, "a n cm blade mounted in xyz fittings".

[kdlarman]

Well, if you guys really are interested, you might find this article by Guido Schiller interesting.

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/koshirae/koshirae.htm

There are also a couple other really good article on Rich's site. Blade shapes changes over time is also a really good article. Then there's the article on Niku I wrote years ago that I sometimes regret since I've seen so many, um, "interesting" interpretations of what I wrote over the years. I can't count how many times I've said "what?" when finding myself quoted to support something I absolutely would never agree with...

The reality is that all these terms in use have subtle variations in meaning. Most assume many mean the exact same thing, but the reality is that meaning is a very fluid thing with many of these terms. As I wrote originally, context is everything. I personally find it very interesting in part due to how some groups end up with, well, "interesting interpretations" of things based on subtle misunderstanding of terms. And often this happens with perfectly legit folk. It is subtle stuff and the path is a minefield... ;)

[kdlarman]

... It may be easier to call a sword by it's length and mountings. For example, "a n cm blade mounted in xyz fittings".

The reality is that among collectors and sword historians the terms wakizashi, tanto and katana are for the most part just descriptive of length of swords. Less than one (tanto), more than two (katana), and in between (wakizashi). Tachi are an earlier case of earlier history with longer and more deeply curved blades (with lots of exceptions of course). Tachi made for that purpose long ago were also generally signed "tachi-mei" meaning the signature of the smith is on the "other" side from where you normally see them on a katana (ura and omote become difficult concepts to discuss when comparing katana and tachi -- there's another discussion -- Omote and Ura on blades assume you have the orientation of the edge correct to begin with...). A katana is generally signed "katana-mei" katana omote with the smith's name. But you shorten that tachi and you'll find a sword that is shorter, lost some of the curve, and it looks a lot like... an unsigned katana. ;) But it is still a tachi. O-suriage tachi, but tachi. But it could be mounted uchigatana style. Is anyone still paying attention? There will be a test later. :p


Sometimes the best thing to do is point and say "that sharp pointy thing over there."

[Walker]

"subtle misunderstanding"

That's a keeper Keith!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hi, Keith. Glad you checked in on this issue, minuscule though it may be.

I've come to the conclusion that there is just no definitive way to name any particular length of weapon that won't offend somebody. I was at another local dojo a few weeks ago, & happened to mention the kodachi versus shoto question to a sensei I know. He laughed & gave me his definition, which was overheard by another sensei who totally disagreed with the first, & that started an almost-argument with a dozen people chiming in. It was actually pretty funny! I managed to sneak away before they started blaming me....

Rich's Web-site is a treasure trove of info, & I've had it bookmarked for many a year. But I've somehow managed to miss the article you mentioned, "Blade shapes changes over time." Can you point me to the right URL? I've long held the opinion (for whatever it's worth :p) that blade shapes through the centuries reflected current fighting styles & battlefield conditions, but haven't found much info to confirm or deny that assumption. His article sounds like it might help me on this.

[kdlarman]

Sure enough, no problem.

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/sugata/shape.htm

You might also like this one on Paul Martin's website. His site is here:

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/

Click on the link for The Japanese Sword on the left then click on History. The link at the top of the page references a very cool image of "representative" daito of various time periods. The rest of the page lists the period and some of the why and wherefores of the shape.

[kdlarman]

"subtle misunderstanding"

That's a keeper Keith!

Yeah, I'm full of those. Subtle misunderstandings that is... ;)

Thankfully I have friends who have a habit of calling me on it whenever I stick my foot halfway down my oesophagus. Honestly I can't count how many times I've received either public or private notes saying "Um, no, you're wrong." from folk like Guido Schiller, Ted, and any number of other folk. And even when I feel I'm on solid ground after all these years trying to figure out these things I am still nervous posting on many topics. I just keep waiting for that follow up "you dipstick -- you have it totally wrong" note.

I was briefly involved with a project a few years ago with translation of a pretty famous sword kantei book. The idea was great -- one Japanese speaking sword expert with okay English skills. Another Japanese sword expert with better English skills. One English speaking sword expert with decent Japanese. Then me with my appalling skill level trying to do the new book layout and desktop publishing. It took forever just to get part way through a few pages. Grammar issues, translation issues, heck even sizing/layout problems going from very compact kanji to the much less compact English. What a hassle just getting all those words on a page aligned with photos and graphics. And last I heard the project was put on hold.

[Nemuri Neko]

This is quite an ancient thread necro, but it was one of the first results when searching 'Kodachi vs Shoto', so I will just put the information up here for future searchers of this question.

Shoutou 小刀 is the short blade that goes with the ceremonial/authoritive Daishou 大小. Shoutou has a short handle, long enough to grip with one hand. Shoutou was the everyday short sword a Samurai/Merchant would carry with them in peace time.

Kodachi 小太刀 is a short blade that goes with the battle Daishou 大小. Kodachi has a long handle, long enough to grip with two hands (literally a Daitou 太刀 handle on a short blade). Kodachi was the short sword Samurai would carry into battle.

Wakizashi 脇差 are side-arms. Daishou, Katana, Tachi, Kodachi, Tantou, Shoutou etc. are all wakizashi. Arguably jutte and kabuto wari are also wakizashi.

Daitou is not a wakizashi, as it was considered a main weapon (that's not to say you couldn't designate it as a wakizashi... if you wanted to)

Tantou 短刀 is dagger or knife. Though a shorter shoutou may fall into this category if the Samurai in question is carrying say a Kodachi and Tachi.

Tachi 太刀 is a cavalry sword.

I hope that clears some things up.

[hyaku]

I am sorry but it clears nothing up. You have added total confusion and mixed up swordsmiths terms with the mountings.

When a blade is forged and registered and licenced under the juto ho it falls into three categories:

A tantō (knife or dagger) is less than 1 shaku.

A Shōtō (小刀:しょうとう) (wakizashi or kodachi) is 1 to 2 shaku.

A Daitō (大刀) (katana or tachi) is longer than 2 shaku.

So then we get on to mounts. This is totally a personal preference. My shoto is in a tanto mount to pair with a 3.6 tachi. It's over 1 shaku but looks like a tanto.

Tachi usually refers to a slung sword for cavalry but can be mounted Buke Zukuri style.

So in actual fact there are only three classifications as per your licence. The rest are just styles/mounts.

[Brian Owens]

Daishou, Katana, Tachi...are all wakizashi.

I challenge you to provide an authoritative source that confirms this statement.

[Nemuri Neko]

I am sorry but it clears nothing up. You have added total confusion and mixed up swordsmiths terms with the mountings.

When a blade is forged and registered and licenced under the juto ho it falls into three categories:

A tantō (knife or dagger) is less than 1 shaku.

A Shōtō (小刀:しょうとう) (wakizashi or kodachi) is 1 to 2 shaku.

A Daitō (大刀) (katana or tachi) is longer than 2 shaku.

So then we get on to mounts. This is totally a personal preference. My shoto is in a tanto mount to pair with a 3.6 tachi. It's over 1 shaku but looks like a tanto.

Tachi usually refers to a slung sword for cavalry but can be mounted Buke Zukuri style.

So in actual fact there are only three classifications as per your licence. The rest are just styles/mounts.

I was referring to the Sengoku period. During the Edo period swords were standardised into categories and lengths. Today, as you said, there are relatively strict rules to sword classifications, in the Sengoku period there was a far greater variety in flexibility in classifications. As I practice Sengoku era styles, I classify swords based on use rather any modern classification system.


I challenge you to provide an authoritative source that confirms this statement.

Wakizashi 脇差 began initially to describe the companion sword of the katana 刀, and during various time periods described a range of swords and sword styles that accompanied the main weapon. As the use of the word became more popular, Samurai started to apply it to a range of weapons used as 'side-arms' carried along with spears, glaives and bows into battle.

Eventually, during the Sengoku period, any bladed weapon carried as a side-arm was designated as a 'wakizashi' and were sometimes referred to as ko-wakizashi or o-wakizashi.

Wakizashi is a relative term and refers to any side-arm.

Mol, Serge (2003). Classical weaponry of Japan: special weapons and tactics of the martial arts. Kodansha International. pp. 18–24. ISBN 4-7700-2941-1.

[hyaku]

I was referring to the Sengoku period. During the Edo period swords were standardised into categories and lengths. Today, as you said, there are relatively strict rules to sword classifications, in the Sengoku period there was a far greater variety in flexibility in classifications. As I practice Sengoku era styles, I classify swords based on use rather any modern classification system.



Wakizashi 脇差 began initially to describe the companion sword of the katana 刀, and during various time periods described a range of swords and sword styles that accompanied the main weapon. As the use of the word became more popular, Samurai started to apply it to a range of weapons used as 'side-arms' carried along with spears, glaives and bows into battle.

Eventually, during the Sengoku period, any bladed weapon carried as a side-arm was designated as a 'wakizashi' and were sometimes referred to as ko-wakizashi or o-wakizashi.

Wakizashi is a relative term and refers to any side-arm.

Mol, Serge (2003). Classical weaponry of Japan: special weapons and tactics of the martial arts. Kodansha International. pp. 18–24. ISBN 4-7700-2941-1.

You can classify them any way you want but your licence will state otherwise. As I already mentioned I use a shoto as a tanto. Does it really matter what they are called? Do you actually declare this before your cut?

https://acmebugei.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/the-curse-of-being-a-generalist-a-review-of-%E2%80%9Cclassical-swordsmanship-of-japan-a-comprehensive-guide-to-kenjutsu-and-iaijutsu%E2%80%9D-by-serge-mol/

[Brian Owens]

Eventually, during the Sengoku period, any bladed weapon carried as a side-arm was designated as a 'wakizashi' and were sometimes referred to as ko-wakizashi or o-wakizashi. Mol, Serge (2003).

Okay, any weapon carried AS A SIDEARM may have been referred to as a wakizashi, but would a bushi carrying a polearm also have been wearing a daisho during the Sengokujidai?

[Nemuri Neko]

You can classify them any way you want but your licence will state otherwise. As I already mentioned I use a shoto as a tanto. Does it really matter what they are called? Do you actually declare this before your cut?

https://acmebugei.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/the-curse-of-being-a-generalist-a-review-of-%E2%80%9Cclassical-swordsmanship-of-japan-a-comprehensive-guide-to-kenjutsu-and-iaijutsu%E2%80%9D-by-serge-mol/


It does and it doesn't. In a practical sense, you can call your weapons anything you want and it won't make a difference to your opponent; however, it does become an issue if you survive the battle, write a denshou and hand it to your son with the wish of passing it on to further generations.

Techniques in denshou are usually quite vague. For instance, if it says "use the handle of the kodachi to capture the wrist", doing it with a shoutou won't work because the handle is too short, but many practitioners will 'try' and make it work, changing the technique and passing on a version with a lack of understanding of the original purpose. Then it becomes like Chinese whispers and eventually you end up with a technique that looks nothing like was intended.

This is where Kuden come in, but with so much vague and corrupted information flowing from all sides, it can even affect the Kuden.


Okay, any weapon carried AS A SIDEARM may have been referred to as a wakizashi, but would a bushi carrying a polearm also have been wearing a daisho during the Sengokujidai?

They may have, if they couldn't afford a proper set for battle. Samurai were expected to provide their own equipment and it wasn't uncommon for a Samurai to fall on hard times.

I've read stories of Samurai taking bokken into battle, because they just couldn't afford damaging their primary daishou set or buying a main weapon.

[Brian Owens]

I think you missed what I was saying. A daisho (big-small) is a two-sword set, generally in matching mounts and consisting of a long and a short sword. You said a daisho would be worn during the sengokujidai by bushi whose primary weapon was a polearm, and I am not aware of that being a practice. Can you cite your source?

[hyaku]

It does and it doesn't. In a practical sense, you can call your weapons anything you want and it won't make a difference to your opponent; however, it does become an issue if you survive the battle, write a denshou and hand it to your son with the wish of passing it on to further generations.

Techniques in denshou are usually quite vague. For instance, if it says "use the handle of the kodachi to capture the wrist", doing it with a shoutou won't work because the handle is too short, but many practitioners will 'try' and make it work, changing the technique and passing on a version with a lack of understanding of the original purpose. Then it becomes like Chinese whispers and eventually you end up with a technique that looks nothing like was intended.

This is where Kuden come in, but with so much vague and corrupted information flowing from all sides, it can even affect the Kuden.



They may have, if they couldn't afford a proper set for battle. Samurai were expected to provide their own equipment and it wasn't uncommon for a Samurai to fall on hard times.

I've read stories of Samurai taking bokken into battle, because they just couldn't afford damaging their primary daishou set or buying a main weapon.

I know what a densho is. I have densho. Densho are seldom hereditary. Details of waza are never written in densho. That's the whole idea. Teach a student physically and spiritually and giver him a peices of paper that says he is the new leader with names of what he does. The densho given to the Lord Hosokawa by Yagyu was a blank scroll. The sum total of a ryu written on paper.

There is and always will be grey area as fundamentals are taught to then add ones own personal character and interpretation.

A Katana kaji will tell you smiths used to forged out tons of roughly sharpened expendable blades to take into battle.

On the other hand an archealogical pathologist freind of mine who examined bones from Sekigahara told us that most died as a result of rocks on the head.

I think a points you may be missing is that a blade just over 1 shaku was and is thrown. This practice died down a lot during peaceful times. Also if you enter a normal size building you cant uses a tachi. That's why the jidai geki always have the actors maneuvering to get outside.

Shoto can be used indoors. That nice curve is not to produce a superior cutting weapon. You can stab people with it so that the tip enters body cavities.