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JS3
27th March 2007, 16:49
Greetings,
I am looking for some input as far as kata training goes.
From my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) there has been overtime
a “devolution” in kata. What I mean is that there has been a trend to create simpler kata
to introduce students into the basics of a system and the once basic kata are now advanced.

An example, from my understanding, would be:
Naihanchi Kata: Once the basic kata, simple to learn, lifetime to master.
Pinan: Created by Itosu for introduction to the school system. Now a precursor to Naihanchi.
Kihon Kata \ Fukyu No Kata: Introductory kata before the Pinan.

Another example would be Uechi Ryu. This style once had only three kata Sanchin,
Seisan and Sanseiryu. It now contains upwards of eight kata, the additional five interspersed
between the three original.

Now I’m not talking about the styles that brought in kata from other souces, or Sho and Dai variation of kata, but the creation of simpler kata.

Would it not be a better use of time to go straight into the main kata and therefore spend
your time learning and working these kata?
Are these kata created in response to the commercialization of karate and the need to keep
things interesting??

Or am I just missing the whole point?

Thanks

EddieK
27th March 2007, 20:07
You make an excellent point. Goju-Ryu, for example, initially added Gekisai Dai Ichi and Gekisai Dai Ni. These were created as more simple forms for grade school children. Now some Goju-Ryu schools use the Taikyoku series kata as a precursor to these! To me it seems that less is more in a way, how can you expect students to "master" any kata, if they have 15 - 20 to "learn" BEFORE even reaching Shodan? I don't believe that the solution is to ad more kata to a curriculum, I think the answer is to delve deeper into the kata already present in your style. Work harder on fewer kata, rather than work harder on memorizing twice as many as were in your style originally! Its kind of like that old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none." I also see a trend with schools teaching extremely advanced kata to very beginning students. This to me is just as bad as adding easier and easier kata. It is tantamount to teaching a five year old college level physics. The five year old may be able to repeat back some of the information, but they just don't understand what they are saying! Now I know that many will disagree with me and my humble opinion, and the subject of kata is almost as sensitive as politics and religion. I'm not trying to criticize anyone, just passing on some observations.

Shorin Ryuu
28th March 2007, 11:26
Hey Joe. I guess we run into each other a lot, don't we?

Chibana Sensei agreed that too many kata were detrimental, but too few would limit one's scope. As such, he specifically consulted with Itosu Sensei when creating his kata syllabus and chose the core Shorin kata that we see today, including his 3 kihon kata. These are the 3 Kihon, the 3 Naihanchi, the 5 Pinan, the 2 Patsai, the 2 Kusanku, and Chinto. He knew and would occasionally teach/correct others, but any other kata were strictly optional.

The Pinan kata were created by Itosu Sensei for the school system. As you mentioned, they were simpler kata created to help teach kids karate, but by no means are they any less combat effective. For beginners, these kata are easier because they are shorter and easier to learn within a short class schedule, which is something Itosu Sensei had to deal with in a school system. There are less moves, but it is the execution of a technique that makes it advanced, not the fanciness or esoteric nature of its appearance. Like the kihon kata, the "basic" nature of these kata make it easier to practice core concepts. There are several techniques in the Pinan kata not found in the others, for what it is worth.

With regards to the kihon kata, I will quote my instructor Pat Nakata, direct student of Chibana Chosin.

"In this series of katas, Chibana Sensei incorporated the four basic blocks, two basic punches, and two basic fighting stances of Okinawa Shorin Ryu karate."

When you master the kihon kata, you will find that they have the strongest moves in all of Shorin Ryu. The kihon kata make very evident the concept of hara, koshi, and osae, which are the keys to developing both your waza (techniques) and your transitional karate (how you move and what takes place between techniques). Unfortunately, most schools do not teach their Chibana kihon kata this way, so they appear useless. Without these concepts, they probably are.

I will agree that many places add kata to keep things interesting for their students and/or to mask the fact that they truly don't understand the kata that they "know". I am content to stick with Chibana Sensei's syllabus and feel no need to learn other kata or flavors of the week.

Timothy.G.B.
30th March 2007, 19:20
For what it's worth, I will offer my two cents (Canadian) which isn't worth much were I live and worth even less in most other countries:)

I have been taught that kata is a teaching tool to help people train when their teachers are not there to correct them. If there are only four kata in a system and those kata contain everything you need to know in order to train without your teacher, then 4 would be sufficient. If you need more than that to keep up your training when your teacher is not around, then you need more than that.

I do agree that in most Japanese karate systems in North America, kata is added to keep people interested, simply because there is a lack of depth in understanding the kata. With little depth, one needs to keep spreading out horizontally in the form of more and more kata, otherwise smart/athletic people get bored and move on. When there is depth to knowledge of kata, however, there is plenty to keep people from getting bored and moving on!

Best,
Tim

EddieK
31st March 2007, 01:48
Yes - but where does this lack of understanding originate? With the Sensei. I think the misconception that "more kata equals greater knowledge" is just another aspect of modern training that further waters down the Martial Arts. The solution to which, is to look at yourself and what, why, you teach what you teach and try, very hard, not to pass on generational flaws! Again, I really don't care what anyone else (other than myself and the instructors under me) teaches. Just trying to provoke thought.

Moenstah
3rd April 2007, 10:40
Now some Goju-Ryu schools use the Taikyoku series kata as a precursor to these!

Bloody heretics....

I somehow have this suspicion that they're not adding extra kata to make it easier for the students, but to keep them longer 'busy' so it would take longer to reach shodan level. Financially interesting for the trainer.

A different explanation would be that the instructor/organisation is giving in the to consumerism of the students: their constant craving for learning new flashy things instead of proper understanding en performance of the techniques.

Either way: it's a no no :nono:

EddieK
3rd April 2007, 13:44
BINGO!!!!! - Absolutely correct. I don't think that instructors are trying to delay Shodan, but the latter seems right to me.

JS3
3rd April 2007, 16:46
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your posts. You've given me plenty to think about.
A question for those who have learned all of the kata in their system:
Have you reached a point where you stop working on the basic ones
i.e. Kihon kata and have picked a favorite that you concentrate on?

Also if you work on all of them how much time do you devote to each?

Thanks

Nyuck3X
3rd April 2007, 18:04
We practice 5 kihon katas but the last 2, I consider
precursers to the Pinan katas. We usually warm-up
with the first three. Sometimes we do standing waza
and then move into the kihon katas. We also sometimes
practice them together (kihons 1-3) as one kata then move
into 2 man set.

PictonMA
3rd April 2007, 19:10
I agree with the sentiment that less is more and would rather spend my time learning fewer kata in greater detail than many kata with only a superficial understanding.


A question for those who have learned all of the kata in their system:
Have you reached a point where you stop working on the basic ones
i.e. Kihon kata and have picked a favorite that you concentrate on?

While I have learned all of the Goju-Ryu kata (at least the movements ;p ) I never stop practicing any of them.

I teach Gekisai Ichi and Ni along with Sanchin far more than any other kata because my dojo is relatively new so I spend a lot of time myself practicing those kata.

I then teach Saifa, Seiyunchin and Sanchin Ni so I spend a fair bit of time practicing those kata as well.

Shisochin, Sanseiru, Seipai, Kururunfa, Seuparinpei and Tensho I practice a lot on my own but I try to never spend more time on one kata over the others. They all have much to teach the practitioner and should be constantly practiced.

I will admit that I ocassionally find myself doing Seipai quite a number of times (because it is my favourite kata) or Suparinpei (because it is the one I have been practicing the shortest amount of time) but whenever this is the case I force myself to do Kururunfa and Seisan a number of times because they are the kata that I find the most difficult.

EddieK
4th April 2007, 02:40
In my school (also Goju-Ryu) Sanchin and Tensho are what are known as the "forever" kata, meaning that once learned, the students will do them for the rest of their tenure in our school. - This goes for me and the other instructors too! Other than that I enjoy Shisochin, Kururunfa, and Suparinpei.

Shorin Ryuu
7th April 2007, 19:22
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your posts. You've given me plenty to think about.
A question for those who have learned all of the kata in their system:
Have you reached a point where you stop working on the basic ones
i.e. Kihon kata and have picked a favorite that you concentrate on?

Also if you work on all of them how much time do you devote to each?

Thanks

Joe,

No, I work on each one as much as the others. We usually do them all 2-3 times in practice. Because there is a consistent methodology present and because it is more important how each technique is performed and how each transition is executed, there isn't a concern about not practicing one kata 10 times a practice.