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Kenshin Butsu
30th March 2007, 03:34
Konichiwa,

I was surfing the web and came across a dojo website (I don't have the address) that said Goju Ryu was the only Karate ryu that was registered in the Nippon Budokai...(something like that, you know the Koryu registry in Japan)

It surprised me...Is there an online Nippon Budo..Koryu registry? Or is this true? I would like to validate this claim.

Thank you in advance,

John Alexander
Goju Ryu
Daito Ryu
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

Prince Loeffler
30th March 2007, 06:20
If you mean Goju Ryu Karate, well I don't think they qualify as koryu. Goju Ryu, was established some time in the 1920's.

The term Koryo in the martial arts are often referred that of an art that predate the Meiji Restoration. My understanding is the date most used is 1876, when the Haitorei edict banning the wearing of swords was established.

Anything that post-date the Meiji Restoration are now labeled as gendai budo.

As for being the only karate art listed in the Botokukai, I highly doubt that but then again I could be wrong.

copper giloth
31st March 2007, 01:23
You might want to consider asking this question at a Goju site:

http://www.gojuryu.net/news.php

Kenshin Butsu
31st March 2007, 13:24
Thank you for your help!
In addition, If I'm not mistaken, the following is the official site for the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai. http://www.dnbk.org/

Regards,

John Alexander
Goju Ryu
Daito Ryu
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

EddieK
31st March 2007, 13:27
Yes - Goju-Ryu was the first and only style of Karate termed "Koryu", I believe a few others have been included since.

PictonMA
2nd April 2007, 19:03
From what I've read, Goju-Ryu is the only form of karate defined as ancient / koryu by the DNBK because of it's history / lineage.

Other styles of karate (Wado, Shoto, Shito, etc) are recognized by the DNBK but not defined as ancient.

Liam Cognet
3rd April 2007, 23:08
So what then is the criteria employed by the DNBK for the title of "koryu" being bestowed on a martial art?

It is either:
1. An art that predates the Meiji Restoration.
OR
2. Simply at the discression of the DNBK

TonyU
4th April 2007, 01:07
Initially when I read this my first reaction was going to cal it B.S.
Thankfully I didn't and didn't let my emotions get the best of me since I'm biased to Shorin Ryu which I admit it's not koryu.
So I waited patiently for our resident expert on Goju chime in. While waiting I decide to do a little research.

The Meiji restoration, which is the timeline that determines koryu or not occurred between 1862 through 1869.

Now while Miyagi coined the term Goju Ryu around 1920 or so, it was his teacher Higaonna (1853-1917) who laid the foundation for the style originally calling it Shorei Ryu (though commonly known as Naha-Te).

So, conceivably, yes it may be koryu.

Nyuck3X
4th April 2007, 02:30
Following that logic Tony, then Shorin is too. Maybe Okinawan Koryu?
But isn't Okinawan Koryu called Kobudo? We use the term when referring
to weapons practice, but the term means, ancient warrior way. Right? :confused:

Liam Cognet
4th April 2007, 02:45
Now while Miyagi coined the term Goju Ryu around 1920 or so, it was his teacher Higaonna (1853-1917) who laid the foundation for the style originally calling it Shorei Ryu (though commonly known as Naha-Te).

That would make Naha te koryu. If it made Goju Ryu koryu, logicly it would make other styles of Naha te lineage (ie, Shito Ryu, To'on Ryu etc) also koryu.

TonyU
4th April 2007, 03:13
I'm only surmising as to how the Nippon Budokai made their determination.
Chibana and Kyan of Shoring are credited with their founding of Shorin Ryu after they have formulated into a system in the early 1900's. The same with the founder of other styles. Miyagi, on the other hand, was simply teaching what was already formulated, just renaming it, understand?
I'm thinking that they are determining on a mostly completely curriculum.
The best way I can describe it is this, while some kata (including kobudo) can be considered koryu, the system as a whole may not.

Again I'm guessing on their train of thought. I am actually enjoying it as it's making me go back an re-research what little I've learned about karate history.

Now as far as whether I care if Shorin Ryu or any Okinawan karate is koryu, I don't. I like them whether they are or not.

Nyuck3X
4th April 2007, 16:58
I care less about it too. I just wanted to understand the
reasons Goju is considered Koryu.

Peace.

Nyuck3X
4th April 2007, 23:46
Just got my book, "Timeline of Karate History" by Hokama Tetsuhiro
this morning and he wrote that in December of 1933, The Dai Nippon
Butokukai officially recognized Karate as a Japanese Martial Art.

So does this mean that because it was recognized, Karate is a Koryu?

By the way, great book if you want a reference as to what happened when.

Peace.

Prince Loeffler
5th April 2007, 00:56
Just got my book, "Timeline of Karate History" by Hokama Tetsuhiro
this morning and he wrote that in December of 1933, The Dai Nippon
Butokukai officially recognized Karate as a Japanese Martial Art.

So does this mean that because it was recognized, Karate is a Koryu?

By the way, great book if you want a reference as to what happened when.

Peace.

Now I am confused as ever. The DNK recognized karate as Japanese art ? Does this mean Shorin Ryu and Goju are no longer "okinawan" art ? Which style of Karate is recognized by the DNB ?

To paraphase TonyU, I don't care exactly what the DNB recognises but I am curious to know.

Thanks Ray !

Kenshin Butsu
5th April 2007, 01:51
"The occurrence of these 48 figures in chinese kata found in Goju and Uechi systems point us to a specific school of Quan Fa in Okinawa, more specifically in Naha. Miyagi in his 1934 panflet "Karate-do Gaisetsu" (see translation in P. McCarthy, Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts, vol 2, Tuttle, 1999) tells us that the Goju-ryu system was originated from a Chinese Kempo school that stablished in Naha around 1828. He doesn´t refer to his master, Higaonna Kanryo, as the originator of Goju-ryu, but a Chinese school stablished in Naha since 1828. We know some prominent masters of this school: Sakiyama, Aragaki Seisho, Kojo Taitei, Nakaima, and Higaonna, among others unknown masters. The misterious Ryu Ryu Ko (or Torin Ryu Ko) could be one of the advisers of this school, along with Iwah, Wai Shin Zan, and others."
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bleachers/6758/bubishi.htm

Some katas are considered koryu, others were created by Miyagi, like Gekisai Dai Ichi & Gekisai Dai Ni

See this link: Special Edition International Division Butoku News
May 2002 - DNBK: Goju Ryu is listed as one of the Karatedo presenters to the Emperor, along with Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu, and a couple of others.
http://www.dnbk.org/hevents2.cfm

Unless, we find an official list provided for by the DNBK, then we have to continue accepting that "Okinawan Goju-ryu has been granted koryu (classical martial art) status by the Dai Nippon Butokukai."
http://www.asianartscenter.com/goju.htm

May love prevail...Namo Amida Butsu

Liam Cognet
5th April 2007, 01:55
Just got my book, "Timeline of Karate History" by Hokama Tetsuhiro
this morning and he wrote that in December of 1933, The Dai Nippon
Butokukai officially recognized Karate as a Japanese Martial Art.

So does this mean that because it was recognized, Karate is a Koryu?


Doesn't the DNBK recognise Judo, Kendo and Akido? They, to the best of my knowledge, are not considered koryu.

Also, there may be small martial traditions in Japan which are not affiliated with the DNBK. Would they be considered koryu?

I don't think that DNBK recognition is sinonimos with koryu status.

TonyU
5th April 2007, 02:51
Just got my book, "Timeline of Karate History" by Hokama Tetsuhiro
this morning and he wrote that in December of 1933, The Dai Nippon
Butokukai officially recognized Karate as a Japanese Martial Art.

So does this mean that because it was recognized, Karate is a Koryu?

By the way, great book if you want a reference as to what happened when.

Peace.
All that tells me is that term "karate" was accepted with now some curriculum just not a specific one. Remember prior to this most styles were in their infancy and called by Te, China hand or by their village.

TonyU
5th April 2007, 02:54
Doesn't the DNBK recognise Judo, Kendo and Akido? They, to the best of my knowledge, are not considered koryu.

Also, there may be small martial traditions in Japan which are not affiliated with the DNBK. Would they be considered koryu?

I don't think that DNBK recognition is sinonimos with koryu status.
I agree.
..........

dsomers
5th April 2007, 03:26
While, I believe Goju Ryu was the 1st recognized style of Karate Do, & Miyagi Sensei was the 1st recognized Kyoshi of Karate Do by the DNBK, other styles have been accepted since then.
However, Goju Ryu is the only style of Karate (that I know of), to be accepted by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai; thru the efforts of Morio Higaonna Sensei.

Nyuck3X
5th April 2007, 23:17
All that tells me is that term "karate" was accepted with now some curriculum just not a specific one. Remember prior to this most styles were in their infancy and called by Te, China hand or by their village.


I agree with this. Just because the organization recognizes something, doesn't
mean they accepted it as Koryu.

Hokama Sensei makes it clear that Naha-te was being practiced prior
to Higashionna.

Shikiyanaka
23rd April 2007, 11:30
Hmmmh,

Goju-ryu was the only Karate style - wether Okinawan or Japanese - that was termed "Koshiki no Waza" by Watatani Kyoshi et.al. in BRD. So it was recognized as being set up from "ancient techniques". And yes, they appear to be very old.

The style wasn't around on Okinawa for that long under the name Goju-ryu, even not Naha-te. But it was in China.

Maybe that's why there's a problem with the term "Koryu", used for Japanese styles of approximately pre-Meiji time or something like that.

As you all know, in order to be accepted as "old style" there need be proof.

Miyagi Chōjun, in his article "Ryūkyū Kenpō Tōde Enkaku Gaiyō" 琉球拳法唐手沿革概要 from 1936, wrote, that in

"1828 our ancestors inherited a style of Quanfa from the province of Fujian, China. They carried on their studies and from it formed Gōjū-ryū Karate. Even today an orthodox group exists, which inherited the pure and authentic Gōjū-ryū Karate."

The "Bubishi" is also one of those proofs for the ancient sources of Goju-ryu, showing clear marks of the Chinese military treatises of Jixiao Xinshu and even Sun Tsu's Art of War.

However, it's "ancient techniques" of China, not purely Okinawa nor Japan.