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Will Bauer
4th April 2007, 01:21
Hello,

Years ago I attended a seminar by Teruo Kono sensei, Wado ryu 8th dan, who advertised himself as being a Shinto Yoshin ryu 8th dan. When I asked him about Shinto Yoshin ryu techniques he told me it was basicly the same as Wado ryu. This didn't make sense but I took his word for it. Then I found a list of techniques on Mr Shingo Ohgami's website that included a treasure trove of Shindo Yoshin ryu techniques not included in any Wado ryu I've ever seen. This was a very disappointing discovery. I felt Mr Kono had decieved me.

Then, I recently attended a seminar with Mr Toby Threadgill of Takamura ha Shinto Yoshin ryu. What an experience! I was absolutely blown away by this mans technical skills and ability to explain jujutsu theory. He is amazing!

I always wanted to understand what Shinto Yoshin ryu looked like so I could better grasp the qualities that linked Shinto Yoshin ryu jujutsu to Wado ryu. When Kono sensei refused to answer my questions he was obscuring something of great value. These questions were answered in so much detail by Mr Threadgill that I walked away more satisified with his seminar than any I've ever attended. It will take me months to digest all I learned. I'm even thinking of attending his seminar in Palma, Mallorca this weekend to get another dose!

I'm a newbie here so I have several questions that maybe someone here can answer. I looked in the archive but could find very little info.

Was there a reason, perhaps cultural for Mr Kono to not answer my questions?

I now understand that Mr Threadgill studied Wado ryu for a time and held black belt rank. Does any one here know who he studied Wado ryu with?

I understand Mr Threadgill has been in contact with Mr Shingo Ohgami in Sweden for many years. I even heard that Mr Ohgami has attended some of Mr Threadgills seminars as a participant. I think it is fantastic that a Japanese Shihan has demonstrated such openmindedness. Are there any other Japanese Wado shihan regularly in attendence at his seminars learning Shinto Yoshin ryu?

Is Mr Threadgill in contact with Jiro or Kazutaka Ohtsuka.

Has anyone seen the Shinto Yoshin ryu of a man in Japan named Fujiwara? He is listed in a book I own as the head of the Shinto Yoshin ryu in the Japanese Budokan Kobudo Federation.

Were Mr Fujiwara and Mr Threadgill's teacher, Mr Takamura associated?

I hope Mr Threadgiils contact with the Wado ryu community goes deeper than I know as he seems to be an amazing resource for knowledge we have neglected for too long.

Will Bauer

ken harding
4th April 2007, 20:07
On the Takamura Ryuha site there's a bio of Mr Threadgill's teacher which is quite informative.

TBH though your lucky to have met and trained with Threadgill sensei. As another frustrated Wado person who has followed many of the same lines of enquiry I am rather sad that we pay so little to the style which should be at least half if not more of what we do.

I might see you at one of those seminars one day, if I ver find out when they are on

Will Bauer
6th April 2007, 00:19
Ken,

If you want to attend one of Threadgill sensei's seminars keep checking here: http://www.shinyokai.com/seminars.htm

You will not be disappointed! The guy is simply amazing. His technique is so subtle and refined that you won't believe what you feel. Nothing! It's like fighing a ghost when you try to touch him. Then, when he pulls out a sword and explains the sword waza of Shindo Yoshin ryu you'll never see Wado the same again. Wado really is different from Okinawan Karate or Shotokan and he can demonstrate the differences.

I just located his website since I was spelling it wrong. It's Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu, not Shinto Yoshin ryu.

Look here: www.shinyokai.com

Fantastic website!

Will Bauer

john_lord_b3
9th April 2007, 14:39
I am from the JKF-Wadokai camp, so our resident expert on Wado-ryu Jujutsu techniques is Mr. Hakoishi Katsumi. He had already released a video of the IDORI (Jujutsu seated defense) techniques of Wado-ryu, which came from Shindo Yoshin-ryu techniques. I highly recommend this video, it's very highly informative.

Also, the techniques listed in Ohgami sensei's website are still taught by Otsuka Jiro (Otsuka Hironori II) of Wado-ryu Renmei. All the Joshi Goshinjutsu, Tantodori, Gyakunage etc are still there. He had also released a video demonstrating much of those techniques. I also highly recommend it.

I heard good things about Toby sensei's Takamura SYR, and I think any serious Wadoka should at least try to attend his seminars. His Shindo Yoshin-ryu is of a different branch from Otsuka sensei's (which has been incorporated into Wado). Toby sensei's SYR is from Ohbata Shigeta line, while Otsuka (Wado's) line is from Nakayama Tatsusaburo line. So, Takamura SYR and Wado-ryu are more like a parallel development. But still, there are many similarities (or so I was told) between them, which is logical since both came from the same roots.

Will Bauer
9th April 2007, 21:23
Hello Ben,

I just received an e-mail from a Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu student of a Mr David Maynard sensei who also trained in Wado ryu Renmei. It was very interesting. In contrast to what you are saying, he indicates that only a fraction of the techniques listed in Mr Ohgami's site are taught by Jiro Otsuka. He also stated that Mr Maynard's jujutsu waza far exceeded those of Jiro Ohtsuka in sophistication. This supports the experience I had with Mr Threadgill. Apparantly Mr Maynard is very highly ranked in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu.

Interestingly, there are considerable differences between the number of techniques registered by Hironori Otsuka in 1934 with the Butotukai and those practiced by Wado Kai, Wado ryu Renmei and WIKF today. Apparantly all of those listed by Otsuka are still taught in Shindo Yoshin ryu except the Tachi Dori which are not from Shindo Yoshin ryu at all.

Shindo Yoshin ryu Idorigata - Ohtsuka registered 6

WadoKai practices 7, Wado Academy practises 10, WIKF - 6 and Shindo Yoshin ryu -35


Shindo Yoshin ryu Tehodoki, Nagekaeshi and Shodan Tachiai

Udeotoshi, Seotoshi, Eriotoshi, Sodeotoshi, Ashiguruma, Koshiguruma, Kataguruma,
Hikiotoshi, Karisute, Kinukuguri, Deashigari, Osotogari, Kosotogari, Ouchigari, Kouchigari, Seoinage, Ushirogoshi, Taiotoshi, Haraigoshi, Uchimata, Yokootoshi, Sumikaeshi, Oguruma, Yokogake.

Of the proceeding waza only a few are taught by WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei. Some of those praqcticed by WIKF are apparantly invented or compiled by Suzuki sensei as they are not from Shindo Yoshin ryu.


Shindo Yoshin ryu Tanto Dori

Udegaramidori, Kotenagedori, Ungadori, Erinagedori, Zudori, Hikitatedori, Hikiotoshidori

WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei apparantly practice between 7 and 10 Tantodori, some of which are from Shindo Yoshin ryu, but not all.


Kassatsu Jizaigata 5 (Saving and killing techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu Nagekaeshi)

Suikatsu, Rakukatsu, Oukatsu, Yukatsu, Enkatsu, Toukatsu, Dakatsu

As far as I know none of these are taught in Wado ryu.


Shindo Yoshin ryu Rataidori 3 (Naked techniques)

Maedori, Yokodori, Ushirodori,

As far as I know none of these are taught in Wado ryu.


Keisatsu Taihojutsu 14 - (Police Arresting Techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu Chuden Tachiai)

Tehodoki 2, Kansetsuwaza 3, Nagewaza 5, Osaewaza 4,

None of these are practiced Wado Kai. A limited number are practised by Wado ryu Remnei and WIKF.


Joshi Goshinjutsu 14 ( Womens Self defense techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu )

Maedori 6, Yokodori 2, Ushirodori 3, Osaedori 4

None of these are practiced in Wado Kai. A limited number are practised by Wado ryu Remnei and WIKF.

According to Mr Maynard, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu containes over 325 kata, some of which were abandoned by the Nakayama line in the early 20th century. Also according to Mr Maynard, the Nakayama Tatsusaburo line was an unauthorized line and not supported by the transmission of an authentic menkyo kaiden. I've never heard of this before and I’m not sure what this means for Ohtsuka. I sent an e-mail to Mr Threadgill and Mr Ohgami asking for clarification on this assertion. If they respond I will post it here.

Will Bauer

john_lord_b3
10th April 2007, 12:38
Hello Ben,

I just received an e-mail from a Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu student of a Mr David Maynard sensei who also trained in Wado ryu Renmei. It was very interesting. In contrast to what you are saying, he indicates that only a fraction of the techniques listed in Mr Ohgami's site are taught by Jiro Otsuka.

Well, we will never know until we ask Otsuka Jiro soke himself.



Interestingly, there are considerable differences between the number of techniques registered by Hironori Otsuka in 1934 with the Butotukai and those practiced by Wado Kai, Wado ryu Renmei and WIKF today.


No arguments there. Otsuka sensei were trying to create a new Kenpo art, so he picked SOME, not ALL, techniques from his existing knowledge base.



Shindo Yoshin ryu Idorigata - Ohtsuka registered 6

WadoKai practices 7, Wado Academy practises 10, WIKF - 6 and Shindo Yoshin ryu -35


Actually the Wadokai practices more than just 7 Idori. If you had a seminar with Mr. Hakoishi, he will show you some more techniques other than the 7.



Shindo Yoshin ryu Tehodoki, Nagekaeshi and Shodan Tachiai

Udeotoshi, Seotoshi, Eriotoshi, Sodeotoshi, Ashiguruma, Koshiguruma, Kataguruma,
Hikiotoshi, Karisute, Kinukuguri, Deashigari, Osotogari, Kosotogari, Ouchigari, Kouchigari, Seoinage, Ushirogoshi, Taiotoshi, Haraigoshi, Uchimata, Yokootoshi, Sumikaeshi, Oguruma, Yokogake.

Of the proceeding waza only a few are taught by WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei.


Again, I'm refraining from commenting about what is being taught by Nidai Soke (Otsuka Jiro) because there's a big difference between techniques taught in the general public (and shown in videos) and techniques he actually know.



Shindo Yoshin ryu Tanto Dori

Udegaramidori, Kotenagedori, Ungadori, Erinagedori, Zudori, Hikitatedori, Hikiotoshidori

WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei apparantly practice between 7 and 10 Tantodori, some of which are from Shindo Yoshin ryu, but not all.


The WIKF also practices Tantodori.



Kassatsu Jizaigata 5 (Saving and killing techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu Nagekaeshi)

Suikatsu, Rakukatsu, Oukatsu, Yukatsu, Enkatsu, Toukatsu, Dakatsu

As far as I know none of these are taught in Wado ryu.


Not really.. PM me for details :)



Joshi Goshinjutsu 14 ( Womens Self defense techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu )

Maedori 6, Yokodori 2, Ushirodori 3, Osaedori 4

None of these are practiced in Wado Kai. A limited number are practised by Wado ryu Renmei and WIKF.


My sensei is JKF-Wadokai but he does teach some Joshi Goshinjutsu. Please remember that most of the senior shihans (my sensei is at his late 60s) trained with Otsuka sensei in the 1950-1960s and 1970s, long before the 3 way split in 1981. The syllabus of Wado at that time weren't "set in stone" yet. Back then, we were all in the JKF-Wadokai and we practices Wado-ryu.



According to Mr Maynard, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu containes over 325 kata, some of which were abandoned by the Nakayama line in the early 20th century.


Not sure about this statement. I have seen the Menkyo that Otsuka sensei received from Nakayama sensei, and the title of the Menkyo says "Shinto Yoshin-ryu Judo". So it IS different from the Takamura line, as I have said.



Also according to Mr Maynard, the Nakayama Tatsusaburo line was an unauthorized line and not supported by the transmission of an authentic menkyo kaiden. I've never heard of this before and I’m not sure what this means for Ohtsuka. I sent an e-mail to Mr Threadgill and Mr Ohgami asking for clarification on this assertion. If they respond I will post it here.

Will Bauer

As far as I know, the Otsuka line is NOT the mainline Shindo Yoshin-ryu. His line is a branch from the mainline, just like Takamura-ha is a branch of the mainline. I agree with the opinion that the Takamura-ha are closer to the mainline, because of all the weapons are still being taught, as Mr. Threadgill told us in the Wado discussions group, years ago.

Whether the Otsuka line is "unauthorized" or not, I guess there are no way to tell since all the people who can give definite answers (Nakayama sensei, Otsuka sensei etc) already passed away.

Though, I got a strange feeling that Mr. Threadgill sensei is going to respond very soon :)

Anyway, if the whole point of your argument is telling everyone that Wado-ryu is NOT Shindo Yoshin-ryu, then my answer is definately YES. Wado-ryu is a brand new, hybrid martial art which has evolved into something very different with the "parents" (Okinawan Kenpo and SYR). It is no longer SYR, and it is also no longer Okinawan Kenpo. It is a new thing. It is... Wado-ryu :)

You can visit Otsuka Jiro soke's website www.wado-ryu.jp for his views about wado-ryu.

I agree though, that the focus of Wado today seemed to be Sport Karate. Wado today seemed to move away from its roots in traditional Bujutsu and towards Sport Karate. But not all Wadoka practices their art as a Sport Karate style. There are hundreds of throws, locks and self-defense techniques still taught in some dedicated Wado dojos.

I hope my answers are satisfactory to you.

Toudiyama
20th May 2007, 09:06
I agree though, that the focus of Wado today seemed to be Sport Karate. Wado today seemed to move away from its roots in traditional Bujutsu and towards Sport Karate. But not all Wadoka practices their art as a Sport Karate style. There are hundreds of throws, locks and self-defense techniques still taught in some dedicated Wado dojos.

Well actually we see an renewed interest in the traditional parts of Wado
As well as looking at the SYR and Yagyu Shinkage ryu Roots of Wado
and even at the Karate of Choki Motobu


Danny Spits
Nidan Wado Karate
Netherlands

john_lord_b3
21st May 2007, 03:06
daag Danny, hoe gaat het met jou? :)

You're right, amongst some younger Wadoka, there are a renewed interests on the long-forgotten Wado JJ techniques. My good friend in Nederland, Andries Van Dijk in Gorinchem, still teach them under the guidance of his sensei, Ishikawa shihan. Also, I think Igor Asselbergs (under Muramatsu Hideo) still practices them also.

epramberg
23rd May 2007, 23:55
Hello,

Years ago I attended a seminar by Teruo Kono sensei, Wado ryu 8th dan, who advertised himself as being a Shinto Yoshin ryu 8th dan.

Will Bauer

I hate to be a party pooper and point this one out, but, last I checked, Shindo Yoshin Ryu didn't have kyu or dan rankings. Perhaps someone should ask Toby Threadgill.

john_lord_b3
24th May 2007, 05:18
you can PM me for details about those "Dan" certificates.

chigaroogarem
23rd July 2009, 23:46
OK, I'm not all that familiar with the various names and organziations...so just trying to get my bearing on the conversation.It was previously my under-standing that the founder of Wado-ryu, Hironori Otsuka, was a student of Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu for a number of years before beginning to explore various styles of Karate; then creating his own, which was recognized in the late 1930's.

His background being in Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu, it would seem only natural that he would incorporate various techniques from this system into his own. Is the debate over how much of this jujutsu was incorporated into the Wado-ryu system? Am I even close to having an accurate understanding of what is going on here?

Steve Delaney
24th July 2009, 13:36
Post deleted.

Richard Elias
4th August 2009, 03:49
For those interested there will be a two-day Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu seminar with Toby Threadgill in Southern California this September.

Check the Seminar forum for details:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43854

Chucky
4th August 2009, 19:37
Hello Ben,

Shindo Yoshin ryu Idorigata - Ohtsuka registered 6

WadoKai practices 7, Wado Academy practises 10, WIKF - 6 and Shindo Yoshin ryu -35



Will Bauer

Hi Will.

Thankyou for your comprehensive listing of the techniques, especially the Tantodori which I am presently endeavouring to research as best I can.

I was wondering if you have the names of the Idorigata that Otsuka Meijin registered?

I try to follow a 'traditional' path of Wado, and whilst accepting that many additions & alterations have been made to the Wado syllabus over the years by the various masters it is sometimes hard to define what is 'new' and what is 'old' if you get my meaning.

May I also add that I have found this thread both enlightening and refreshing.
As a Wadoka I strive to learn as much as I can about my beloved Ryu, and it is people like yourselves sharing your knowledge that expands my own. (Spare brain cells permitting).

Thankyou all.

GaryWado
14th August 2009, 18:20
Hi Chucky mate, good to see your still live and kicking.

In fact I was just recounting our Idori session with Hakoishi sensei a couple of days ago.

Probably going to do another Idori session at the leisure center in Walton in a few weeks time.

You Going to Lyme - if so mate we will catch up then.

Cheers

Gary Needham

Chucky
15th August 2009, 20:01
Hi Gazza

Yes mate I'm still kickin' n punching as ever!

The German bash was a good time wasn't it mate, I came away with shedfuls from Mr Hakoishi, probably the best I've trained with.

Yep, I'll be at Baz's bash in Lyme Regis. Looking forward to seeing you there for some hard training and hopefully some mutual bashing.

Take care Bro.

Chucky

P. Hval
9th October 2009, 03:43
Hello and apologies for intruding in this in-depth discussion but... An
acquaintance who will be helping me with Kendo (which I attempt to learn),
is said to be doing Wado Ryu. If you won't mind, since I am mainly a little familiar with Shotokan Karate, can someone say if there are similar forms/techniques with Wado Ryu and that? Thank you very much.

P. Hval
11th October 2009, 00:42
Still hoping for some help on question posted a few days ago. Apols. for eagerness, thanks!

Lance Gatling
11th October 2009, 01:25
Wadō ryu is different. The primary difference, to me, comes from its blending with Shindō Yōshin-ryū.

All that is explained here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wad%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB

I like it better than Shotokan, but I'm not doing either, just see it. I think the mix of jujutsu and karate is a great idea.

Shugyosha
12th October 2009, 22:11
Pamela,

if you are only "a little familiar" with Shotokan karate and know nothing of Wado yet you will probably not see a big difference. But as the Wikipedia article says this only seems so on the surface. Actually, Wado Karate is based on totally different principles. Even the fact, that it is governed by fundamental principles rather than specific technique is due to its foundation in classical japanese budo, as is the existence of paired kata (kihon kumite). For example, Wado has no genuine bunkai for the solo kata (which superficially resemble those of other karate-styles), but instead uses an approach to application known as kaisetsu; there is no fixed method how to apply a certain sequence of movement but a variety of possible applications of the underlying principles used in this sequence.

If your wado aquaintance has some experience, he will easily be able to demonstrate to you some of these principles of Wado and you will recognize the difference.

Regards

P. Hval
13th October 2009, 17:27
Shugyosha, Thank you for the reply. Compared to many, 6~7 years in Shotokan are few. But from what you, Lance and Wikepedia have written, at least now have some ideas about my sempai's MA background outside of Kendo. Though looking forward to him teaching me nito-ryu, Wado sounds very interesting.