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Jason H.P. Yoo
10th April 2007, 00:11
Why are/were reverse-grip resheathing methods used, and what advantages and disadvantages do they involve?

gmanry
10th April 2007, 01:51
Well, what would all those ninja do in the movies?

This is not a legitimate answer based on anything I have been told, but I find such noto much easier when crouching. It does allow you to perform noto in a more restricted space because the wrist is more free and you can keep the elbow in closer to the body.

In MJER though we perform such noto in two kata that I have been taught. One is at the end of a kata in tatehiza and I find this to be much easier than standard noto in this position, particularly because our school tends to use longer blades.

Shindai
10th April 2007, 04:08
Can't say I ever thought about it, even.. in terms of noto, anyway.. It was just how I was taught in aikijutsu, the first kata ended that way. The chiburi was a kind of thump with the right hand on the .... the word escapes me, forgive me, but "handle" *shudders*, and it just felt more natural from that to re-grip it with a reverse grip with the right hand to noto it, coz you can let it drop, and it seems more relaxed (to myself), I generally prefer to noto in a reverse grip, find it more comfortable.

Of course this is outside of forms, the kata was someting like a minute long when done at proper speed, was like a tae kwon do kata, or something, as opposed to the Iaido forms based on perhaps a couple of cuts.

Just got interrupted while typing all this, forgot the point I was getting at lol, but yeah, personally I find it more comfortable to noto like that, it's smoother off a chiburi involving hitting the *shudder* handle *grinds teeth.*

Though actually I have seen Iaido masters doing that too in demonstrations.

Brian Owens
10th April 2007, 05:36
...the *shudder* handle *grinds teeth.*
Tsuka. The part behind the tsuba. ;)

Shindai
10th April 2007, 06:13
Argh I feel retarded,all I could think of was tsuba, or tsuki :p Always get the three mixed up, can't imagine why :) Thanks Brian

gmanry
10th April 2007, 06:51
The tsuka the part behind the tsuba, but not found in the tube of tubas. :D

My wife has a horrible time with Japanese terms. She does well with romance languages. Anyway, she would always blurt out habachi instead of habaki when we were asked to name the parts of the katana. It became a class joke.

Then we had a running joke about the Clam Bake War when we were studying our MJER history. Samurai running around in bermuda shorts in New England with sweaters tied around their necks...

Ken-Hawaii
10th April 2007, 07:39
Actually, the reverse noto is a part of chiburi, at least in the MJER waza I've been taught. Not that wiping the kissaki on your hakama is going to remove that much blood & gore, but that's the idea behind it. The left arm is held straight out at shoulder height, while the right arm swings the blade in what looks like an umbrella (mine looks more like a cocked hat...), & the kissaki is reversed into the saya, all in one smooth motion.

Chidokan
10th April 2007, 10:16
reverse grip would help if you used a longer sword and you were doing noto.... I spotted this while playing with Hyaku's bokken (3 or 4 shaku?) as the hand is almost holding the tsuba, so you gain about 4 inches by doing this.

Max Chouinard
10th April 2007, 12:58
As I know it is mostly used in TSKSR to be ready to stab your enemy on the ground if he ever moved. As for other schools I have no idea.

Steve Delaney
10th April 2007, 15:24
I have been told several reasons ranging from;

1. When wearing tosei gusoku and tachi, it's not very easy or safe to do junte osame due to movement restrictions and the kote not being very flexible.

2. It's a safer method of resheathing the weapon, since more attention is paid to holding the mune with the thumb and knuckle of the index finger.

3. That's the way "we" do it.

Andy Watson
10th April 2007, 21:30
I think the answer to this depends completely on what school of iaido you come from. In seitei it is influenced by it's koryu origin Ryuto/Ukenagashi. Undoubtedly the ZNKR were all too happy to include this noto into seitei as it meant another technique would be added to the basic curriculum.

In MSR/MJER Junto/Kaishaku it represents the positioning of the blade so that an assistant can pour water on to the blade and another to wipe the sword clean.

In MSR Gyakuto the noto is a continuation of the resultant grip from thrusting the sword into a prone opponent. I don't have much knowledge of MJER so am not sure if the end of the form represents a thrust or not. It sometimes looks like the movement is an action of wiping the sword clean but this could just be me being a div....

I don't know for sure but the reason for its inclusion at the end of Ryuto could be one of changing the expression of zanshin as the felled opponent is so much closer than other kata.

Chidokan
10th April 2007, 22:41
it is cleaning the sword as you thought. I also do a version where the sword is laid on the leg, and the hand goes inside the hakama to use it to clean the blade. (Obviously these are your 'works jeans' version of hakama.. :D )

will
18th April 2007, 05:46
In MJER though we perform such noto in two kata that I have been taught. One is at the end of a kata in tatehiza and I find this to be much easier than standard noto in this position, particularly because our school tends to use longer blades.

Ok, I've racked my brain and can't figure out to which waza you are referring. I thought all the tatehiza waza ended with yoko-chiburi and regular noto? Are you referring to a tatehiza technique that might be unique to your line of MJER?

Ken-Hawaii
18th April 2007, 09:03
I'm not sure which line of MJER you study, Will, but Maeda-Sensei has us doing three Ukenagashi wazas (Eishin-Ryu, Muso Shinden-Ryu, & Seitei Gata), two Kaishaku wazas (Eishin-Ryu & Muso Shinden-Ryu), & one Okuden waza, all of which use the reverse noto (gyaku-noto).

One thing I've wondered about that is related to zanshin: how do you prepare for the next cut when you're in the middle of gyaku-noto? Just about all of the other waza have us fully prepared to slice, dice, or stab our opponent(s) pretty much at any time during the waza. But I'll be darned if I can figure out just what I would do if I was attacked during gyaku-noto...! :eek:

Andy Watson
18th April 2007, 09:16
Just do the cliche'd reverse hand draw that inexperienced iaidoka do until their sensei tells them off for messing around.

Well, ask yourself the question, how long would it take to reverse your grip back to a forward grip and draw the sword? As far as I can tell TSKSR students practise this to their advantage albeit the hand is placed above the handle.

JAnstey
18th April 2007, 09:26
... not the most flattering photo or technique, but an illustration non-the-less of part of this waza in ZNKR Sanbon Mae Uchi Nagashi (sp?)


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f355/nasteyone/IaidoNo2x-1.jpg

Andy Watson
18th April 2007, 09:37
Jason

You're too sexy for your sword,
Too sexy for your sword,
So sexy (you look a bit bored!)

etc etc.

Andy Watson
18th April 2007, 09:42
You're too sexy for your sword,
Too sexy for your sword,
So sexy (that's an interesting colour of sageo chord)

JAnstey
18th April 2007, 09:42
Jason

You're too sexy for your sword,
Too sexy for your sword,
So sexy (you look a bit bored!)

etc etc.


Ahhh, Andy how nice your singing voice is!

Bored??? that is my best "just killed the bastard, he wasn't so tough, and now I'm going home for some Sake and Ramen!!", oh, and I might just have had a bit too much sake the night before?!

Andy Watson
18th April 2007, 09:44
Jas

I'm sorry, it's just difficult to find words that rhyme with sword at 9:40 in the morning.

It's all right for you antipodeans who have had the whole day to get your brains into gear.

It is an intense stare though - did you have to get someone to come along and put drops in your eyes? :D

JAnstey
18th April 2007, 09:47
hahahaha, yep, part of my kit is eye drops, tis a bummer when you get it mixed up with the Choji though!

Cheers mate

Jason

Andy Watson
18th April 2007, 09:50
hahahaha, yep, part of my kit is eye drops, tis a bummer when you get it mixed up with the Choji though!

Cheers mate

Jason

Yeeeeeeeeow!

Brian Owens
18th April 2007, 11:48
...ZNKR Sanbon Mae Uchi Nagashi (sp?)
Ukenagashi.


Ok, I've racked my brain and can't figure out to which waza you are referring. I thought all the tatehiza waza ended with yoko-chiburi and regular noto?I suspect he meant seiza rather than tatehiza since he named them as Ukenagashi, Tsukekomi, and Kaishaku.

While Ukenagashi is a name used in the Shoden Seiza Waza, the Chuden Tachi Waza, and the Okuden Katachi, I believe Tsukekomi and Kaishaku are found only in the Shoden Seiza Waza (AKA Omori Ryu).


...Maeda-Sensei has us doing three Ukenagashi wazas (Eishin-Ryu, Muso Shinden-Ryu, & Seitei Gata), two Kaishaku wazas (Eishin-Ryu & Muso Shinden-Ryu), & one Okuden waza, all of which use the reverse noto (gyaku-noto).
What?!? You're doing Muso Shinden Ryu in a Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu dojo?

I could see doing both Eishin Ryu and Omori Ryu in a MJER dojo (in fact, that's the norm), but MSR? Interesting.

Sean Townsend
18th April 2007, 16:46
Ok, I've racked my brain and can't figure out to which waza you are referring. I thought all the tatehiza waza ended with yoko-chiburi and regular noto? Are you referring to a tatehiza technique that might be unique to your line of MJER?

All of our tatehiza kata end with yoko chiburi, I suspect he just mistyped and used tatehiza when he meant to say seiza when referring to shoden seiza no bu kata.

Ken-Hawaii
18th April 2007, 21:17
What?!? You're doing Muso Shinden Ryu in a Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu dojo?

I could see doing both Eishin Ryu and Omori Ryu in a MJER dojo (in fact, that's the norm), but MSR? Interesting.

Yeah, Brian, Sensei is a practical kind of guy, & has us doing quite a few waza from other ryuha where they make sense. In fact, he has us incorporate several Seitei Gata waza done in Okuden style (Soetetzuki, Shihogiri [tachi], & Nukiuchi), & even one Seitei Gata waza done Chuden style (Tsuka-ate). Makes some sense to me.

But his favorite sets of waza are when we go through what he calls "consecutive draw" for both Shoden & Chuden. We put a small piece of tape on the dojo floor, & then go through each set of waza without stopping, keeping our right hand on the tsuka throughout after each noto. The idea is to have enough control to end up back at your starting position when you've finished. It's certainly one of the most aerobic exercises I've ever had in iaido! :eek:

Sensei has also developed a tachi version of Shoden through Okuden for those students who can't do tatehiza (including me with my artificial left knee). There is a hachidan sensei who visits our dojo a few times a year, & he looked appalled the first time he saw these new "add-ons," but now he just practices them with us.

Is this how new lines of iaido evolve?

A.J. Bryant
19th April 2007, 12:13
Sensei has also developed a tachi version of Shoden through Okuden for those students who can't do tatehiza (including me with my artificial left knee). There is a hachidan sensei who visits our dojo a few times a year, & he looked appalled the first time he saw these new "add-ons," but now he just practices them with us.

Is this how new lines of iaido evolve?

No, it's just the way training has always been done, but it's usually practiced after someone has a firm grasp of the basic waza first; or, in your case, if someone cannot do seiza or tatehiza.


Chuden Tachi Waza

Hi Brian. I'm sure you meant Okuden Tachi Waza?

Chidokan
19th April 2007, 20:21
I have an interesting video from the early 60's where a guy in full armour does all the seiza no bu standing...plus others of course. Which basically goes to show that you can do any waza standing or sitting with a little adaptation and its nothing new. Usually though I keep this for people who are either too ill to do seiza or beginners to get an idea of basics. They are harder to do standing though, if you think about it.... :)

rottunpunk
19th April 2007, 20:35
too true, iaigoshi is way harder on the knees than kneeling on them :D
:p

Brian Owens
19th April 2007, 23:21
...Hi Brian. I'm sure you meant Okuden Tachi Waza?
Oops. Yes, I did.