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Mike Haftel
29th April 2007, 17:57
About a year ago, I went to a number of seminars and resulting study-groups (small, maybe 15-20 people) with a prominant instructor of Daito-Ryu.

He applied various versions of Aikiage and Aikisage and subsequently cramped up uke's body in such a way that he couldn't breath or move until Sensei released the tension. This continued even after Sensei broke contact with uke.

Now, I am one of those skeptices in the martial arts community that believes that some aspects of seminars/demos are done for flash and are exagerated for the sake of Sensei. However, I was thrown a number of times by this person and I can truly say that it was legit. I didn't experience the cramping first hand, but a number of other people there did and they described it to me as only working if you truly had the intention of resisting Sensei and doing harm to him. To me, that means it wouldn't be as effective if a person doesn't "give in" to the tension of the technique. If that makes sense?

I've only seen one or two other people do anything remotely similar to this type of cramping.

Has anybody experienced anything like this and if so, is there an actual name for this technique in the Daito-Ryu?

On a side note, I asked this Sensei to apply Yonkyo to me (as nobody has ever been able to actually demonstrate it before). He told me he could, but that I wouldn't feel it. I said ok and grabbed his wrist hard and fast. Before I could even register a thought or blink an eye, I was on the ground. I felt nothing. I heard nothing. Nothing. It was great!

In retrospect, it felt like playing tug-of-war with a dog. You know how they shake their head and that wave of tension travels up the rope to your arm and head (it's like whiplash). That's what it was like. But he did it so softly that it was barely (if at all) noticeable. All he did was lightly touch my grabbing wrist.

don
29th April 2007, 21:13
Why no names?

Thanks.

Mike Haftel
30th April 2007, 02:33
Why no names?

Thanks.

Well, some people don't like publicity; especially on internet forums. :)

Also, I really like your dojo's webpage! It's very well done. How far is it from Venice? I'm spending part of the summer there.

don
30th April 2007, 16:25
Also, I really like your dojo's webpage! It's very well done. How far is it from Venice? I'm spending part of the summer there.Hour and a half, maybe? Good folk. Give it a shot.

Sukeyasu
3rd May 2007, 16:12
I've heard it referred to as "kana shibari," but this is just a general Japanese term (which translates to "bound with metal") and not specific to Daito Ryu. For example, kana shibari is also used to describe the phenomenon of sleep paralysis. Whereas in the West this is usually associated with stories of alien abduction (at least in the modern era), in Japan there is a long tradition where those who experience kana shibari relate seeing images of ghostly figures.

Mike Haftel
3rd May 2007, 18:00
I've heard it referred to as "kana shibari," but this is just a general Japanese term (which translates to "bound with metal") and not specific to Daito Ryu. For example, kana shibari is also used to describe the phenomenon of sleep paralysis. Whereas in the West this is usually associated with stories of alien abduction (at least in the modern era), in Japan there is a long tradition where those who experience kana shibari relate seeing images of ghostly figures.

Now, that's quite interesting!

judasith
8th May 2007, 16:17
in Japan there is a long tradition where those who experience kana shibari relate seeing images of ghostly figures.

... And I experienced Daito-ryu unnamed masters that can throw fireballs from a distance, without actually touching you! WOW!

By the way, if someone that DOES know how to apply the lock called -IN AIKIDO and NOT in Daito-ryu- "yonkyo", I assure you you WILL feel it, because it's QUITE painful... I guess any average experienced Aikidoka can also confirm that...

If you're into THIS KIND of things, I suggest you buying/viewing Daito-ryu Kodokai videos from Nishikido Sensei, he's paralyzing people and making them faint by the use of "aiki" all the time, or you could watch also a Star Wars movie (Even if some of Systema's videos are especially good also...........).

I believe a good karateka can dissolve all the mysteries of "ghostly figures" and "paralyzed sleep" like it happened here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Mike Haftel
9th May 2007, 02:59
... And I experienced Daito-ryu unnamed masters that can throw fireballs from a distance, without actually touching you! WOW!

By the way, if someone that DOES know how to apply the lock called -IN AIKIDO and NOT in Daito-ryu- "yonkyo", I assure you you WILL feel it, because it's QUITE painful... I guess any average experienced Aikidoka can also confirm that...

If you're into THIS KIND of things, I suggest you buying/viewing Daito-ryu Kodokai videos from Nishikido Sensei, he's paralyzing people and making them faint by the use of "aiki" all the time, or you could watch also a Star Wars movie (Even if some of Systema's videos are especially good also...........).

I believe a good karateka can dissolve all the mysteries of "ghostly figures" and "paralyzed sleep" like it happened here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

I believe you misunderstood the comment about "ghostly figures." It was referring to the MEDICAL condition called Kana Shibari, NOT the Daito-Ryu technique.

I've never met an Aikidoka who could actually apply Yonkyo. This includes many high ranked people.

The version this instructor did to me was a throw and I didn't feel anything because he did it that way on purpose (I believe people who can throw you without you feeling much of anything are much more skilled than people who rely on pain compliance). His choice was not due to any inability on his part.

I've seen that video many times. There is no comparison between that man and the person I'm talking about.

Your hostile tone is not appreciated. Grow up.

judasith
9th May 2007, 07:44
I don't know, maybe you're right and I am the one who should "grow up", but then, maybe I was about to say the same to people who believe martial arts practitioners can put you in "suspended sleep" with AIKI...

Why does people search for these kind of things in the martial arts?

Remember: try to apply a *real* critical spirit to all you are fed with; if you don't you'll end just like the students of that "Kiai" Master...

Am I hostile? Beh, maybe just "spicy": Sokaku Takeda would outrightly laugh at this topic :)

Sukeyasu
9th May 2007, 12:59
The point I tried to make in my earlier post was that the phrase "kana shibari" is used to describe multiple, SEPARATE phenomena.

1. In the case of Daito Ryu, "kana shibari" is sometimes used to name the technique Mr. Haftel was originally asking about. I should think this is familiar to everyone as we've all seen footage of shihan like Okamoto Seigo Sensei paralysing would-be attackers with ease.

2. A very DIFFERENT definition for "kana shibari," but much more well known, is the medical phenomenon of sleep paralysis. If you are concerned about the facts of sleep paralysis, I suggest you visit the following Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

Essentially, sleep paralysis occurs when someone awakes partially while still in a dream state. Accordingly, the mind produces images as though one were still asleep; this accounts for the sightings of aliens, ghosts, or (in Medieval Europe) the succubus. The paralysis is a result of the body's immobilizing of muscle function during sleep so that we do not damage ourselves by "acting out" our dreams. Pre-modern societies, unable to construct a scientific rationale for these two aspects of sleep paralysis, inevitably associated it with demonic possession. Again, this has NOTHING to do with Daito Ryu.

3. ANOTHER way of using "kana shibari" is to say that someone is "frozen with fear"--the approximate English translation. Unlike with the above, one does not necessarily have to be asleep here.

4. And YET ANOTHER definition of "kana shibari" comes from esoteric Buddhism. In this instance, it is the primary function of the deity Fudo Myo-O, who "binds" evildoers with lengths of adamantine rope.

Once more, these definitions, though related, are all quite different. The only reason that the phrase "kana shibari" has been applied to them all is because of their relation in some form or another to paralysis. If I caused any confusion, I apologize for being too colorful with my first post.

judasith
9th May 2007, 13:49
Dear Ben,

Thanks for the explanation, it was quite exhaustive, interesting stuff.

I appreciate you agree with me this has NOTHING to do with Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, or with any other martial art...

...while maybe an encounter at late night in a metropolis with an intoxicated and heavily armed robber surely CAN "freeze you" in fear, or Zen meditation can put you in a kind of "waking" sleep, or again the use of toxic mushrooms as the American Indians used to (and some still do, I read on a newspaper), I REALLY doubt ANY martial art can paralyze you in this way, and certainly NOT Daito-ryu with the use of "ectoplasmic" AIKI.

If one searches these kind of things in a martial art, whatever it is, it is, if lucky, a misguided interest, driven maybe by the unfortunate way the Japanese arts and culture is diffused and taught in the West, in line with cinema movies and fantasy books... I've never met a more pragmatic people than the Japanese; it's here in the West that their social and cultural differences get mixed up and showed like some sort of "platonic new-age".

The average japanese guy falls, when thrown, and gets "paralyzed" by aiki, 99% out of respect for the teacher.

Do you REALLY believe, seeing some of the last videos of even Ueshiba Sensei, that people was thrown without contact for his supernatural ability, rather than for the "automatic" practice training and the respect they had for him, as the great teacher he really was?

What I saw in many different Aikido videos and live practices, and MUCH, MUCH WORSE in many Daito-ryu videos and practices in Japan (I've been there twice and I'll go this year again for practice) from some associations (I won't name them again to not stir the same "post flame") is ludicrous.... people paralyzed, people that is put to sleep and then wakened by "aiki", no-contact-no touch techniques, two fingers multiple cascade falling techniques, I believe that is just !!!!!!ido, with the teacher and the pupils pulling each other's legs...

Mike Haftel
9th May 2007, 16:07
Dear Ben,

Thanks for the explanation, it was quite exhaustive, interesting stuff.

I appreciate you agree with me this has NOTHING to do with Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, or with any other martial art...

...while maybe an encounter at late night in a metropolis with an intoxicated and heavily armed robber surely CAN "freeze you" in fear, or Zen meditation can put you in a kind of "waking" sleep, or again the use of toxic mushrooms as the American Indians used to (and some still do, I read on a newspaper), I REALLY doubt ANY martial art can paralyze you in this way, and certainly NOT Daito-ryu with the use of "ectoplasmic" AIKI.

If one searches these kind of things in a martial art, whatever it is, it is, if lucky, a misguided interest, driven maybe by the unfortunate way the Japanese arts and culture is diffused and taught in the West, in line with cinema movies and fantasy books... I've never met a more pragmatic people than the Japanese; it's here in the West that their social and cultural differences get mixed up and showed like some sort of "platonic new-age".

The average japanese guy falls, when thrown, and gets "paralyzed" by aiki, 99% out of respect for the teacher.

Do you REALLY believe, seeing some of the last videos of even Ueshiba Sensei, that people was thrown without contact for his supernatural ability, rather than for the "automatic" practice training and the respect they had for him, as the great teacher he really was?

What I saw in many different Aikido videos and live practices, and MUCH, MUCH WORSE in many Daito-ryu videos and practices in Japan (I've been there twice and I'll go this year again for practice) from some associations (I won't name them again to not stir the same "post flame") is ludicrous.... people paralyzed, people that is put to sleep and then wakened by "aiki", no-contact-no touch techniques, two fingers multiple cascade falling techniques, I believe that is just !!!!!!ido, with the teacher and the pupils pulling each other's legs...

Nobody ever mentioned "freezing" or "paralyzing" people with "fear" or "ectoplasmatic Aiki."

You are making this out to be something it's not. There's nothing mystical going on here.

There were no "one finger pins," no "no contact throws," no falling for sensei to make him look good. This was quite painful and had plenty of physical contact and even a few strikes here and there.

It is a simple case of muscle cramps. And, I am a skeptic just as much as the next person, as I stated in my original post. But, there's nothing esoteric or magical going on here. The person I am talking about is a well-known and highly respected practioner of Daito-Ryu. I didn't experience this cramping, but he did throw me a number of times and I've never encountered anybody who threw or applied joint locks with such power, grace, and skill. So, take it for what's it's worth and drop the attitude already.

kenkyusha
9th May 2007, 17:22
If you're into THIS KIND of things, I suggest you buying/viewing Daito-ryu Kodokai videos from Nishikido Sensei, he's paralyzing people and making them faint by the use of "aiki" all the time
Is this fellow actually still a part of Daito Ryu Kodokai? Do they allow videos to be disseminated?


... Zen meditation can put you in a kind of "waking" sleep

Fudo-myoo indicates esoteric practice (E.G. Shingon, rather than Zen).

Be well,
Jigme