The value of sparring

[ZachZinn]

I know this has probably been talked to death, but i'd like to start a fresh talk on moderate to heavy jiyu-kumite (hope that's the correct term) in "traditional' Karate.

Basically I mean sparring in which there is enough contact that gear of some sort is a requirement to avoid serious injury.

At this point personally I feel this would be a valuable addition in our dojo, perhaps once or twice a month.

I should say here that I only received my shodan in December, and I am now running my small class (sadly ,my instructor has "retired" for now :().

I have some sparring experience in the past and have 2 sets of bogu gear, i'd like to hear people's thoughts on how to safely and sanely get started. I've been interested in doing this for years, and i'm feeling now is the time.

I'd also like to hear general opinions on the value of this kind of training.

[shoshinkan]

my personal view is that mouth guard, light body armour, light head gear, shins and light gloves is a good way forward to allow heavy contact with reasonable safety, for free and fixed kumite practice.

we also have compromised light contact work with no protective kit of course.

good lessons are learn't when a student is actually hit hard, the shock is an interesting feeling and also it allows the striker to get a feel for structure to penetrate the armour.

from green belt on in my dojo most (not all)students will begin to work in this way allong with progressive conditioning.

go for it, but build it up slowly and use plenty of contact drills to prepare students for harder kumite, semi fixed drills and free.

[john_lord_b3]

I agree with shoshinkan that this kind of training should be taken in small steps, building up from standard ippon kumite, progressively getting harder until you reach full contact with bogu.

Good grounding on Jiyu Ippon Kumite is very important to build good fundamentals before students move into total free sparring. I'd rather have the students perfect their Kihons for months, until they can do all techniques correctly, then perfect their Jiyu Ippon Kumite for months more, until they can actually perform their defenses under real attack (in our Jiyu Ippon Kumite, the attacker does not pull back).

Only after the students become very good at Kihons and Jiyu Ippon Kumite, then we can enter the world of full contact bogu kumite :)

If we jump our students from beginner state directly into full contact, they will develop bad habits later :(

[ZachZinn]

I agree with shoshinkan that this kind of training should be taken in small steps, building up from standard ippon kumite, progressively getting harder until you reach full contact with bogu.....
(


Thanks, this is along the lines of what I was thinking about, do you think it's worth introducing the gear in ippon kumite as well, and doing them at a higher level of intenstiy?

[trevorg]

With the utmost respect, do you think as a newly qualified shodan and no sensei to turn to and only having limited sparring experience as you have admitted, that hard contact kumite is appropriate ?

Also, I disagree with Jim when he says wearing protective gear allows the striker to get a feel for structure to penetrate the armour. In fact,actually, I dont understand what he is saying because you can whack someone really hard and if they are very strong physically and in a particularly strong stance then the hitter can't possibly know the amount of power he would require to make the strike effective.

If you havent been taught full contact then in my view, for what its worth, you would be advised to stay at a maximum of medium contact.

How old are your students (on average) ?
osu
Trevor

[shoshinkan]

Hi Trevor,

good to speak with you again, re your comments my point is if anyone was to hit someone smack on the nose, or into the floating ribs - at the right angle very hard then injury is likely, the armour stops this happening but allows the shock of what goes on to be expierienced, if only partially through the armour, if you hit weak then nothing/very little is felt through the armour, it's also good conditioning for wha tyou strike with.

obviously if someone wanted to get into full contact kumite then our system isn't the one,

but having the ability in trianing to hit hard with reduced risk of injury to what you hit IMO is a good aspect of kumite to try and incorporate into training, over semi contact points practise anyhow.

I tend to use the term heavy contact as opposed to full contact anyhow.

[ZachZinn]

With the utmost respect, do you think as a newly qualified shodan and no sensei to turn to and only having limited sparring experience as you have admitted, that hard contact kumite is appropriate ?


I don't know, I have enough experience doing this kind of thing to be ok with it, not sure about the people i'm training with, or how to go about adding it to our curriculum safely, that's why I posted about it.

At what point would it be appropriate? Do I need to wait for my nidan??

I was pretty much left to my own devices by my instructor here, and I know he was ok with this kind of sparring, in limited quantity.

I'll be calling him for advice also for what it's worth.



Also, I disagree with Jim when he says wearing protective gear allows the striker to get a feel for structure to penetrate the armour. In fact,actually, I dont understand what he is saying because you can whack someone really hard and if they are very strong physically and in a particularly strong stance then the hitter can't possibly know the amount of power he would require to make the strike effective.

If you havent been taught full contact then in my view, for what its worth, you would be advised to stay at a maximum of medium contact.

How old are your students (on average) ?
osu
Trevor

Age range is generally 30 to 40, there is one teenager. The people actually doing this would be myself and another shodan, a student who has been with us about 2 years, and maybe the teenager if he seems to be able to handle it.

Obviously we would be starting with light to medium contact for a while before going heavier, what i'm looking for is some concrete advice on the format and ruleset, do we need a 'ref'...how shoud we deal with takedowns and ground fighting etc?

I'm just gathering advice here, not planning on starting a 'fight club' or something at my dojo, so please don't assume i'm some over zealous new shodan trying to be macho or something...that's definitely not where I'm at, nor is it where I want to be.

That said, I do feel the punch-pulling and habits built up in bunkai drills and ippon kumite (which at the moment is pretty much all the partner work we do) might be offset a bit if we could actually hit eachother with some force sometimes, and not have to stop short of real-life commitment in our techniques.

So I guess what I want is a good format, to avoid either a tippy-tap match of tag on the one end, or a sloppy hockey-brawl on other end.

[Joseph Svinth]

Why use pads? Mouthguards and cups, maybe, but gloves and protectors get you into bad habits. For bareknuckle sparring, the rules are:

1) Emergency room visits are expensive. Does everyone have insurance, and enough money in the bank that it's no problem if they miss a few days of work? If not, then they don't get to participate in contact work.

2) While playing, if somebody -- anybody -- says "Stop," stop all offensive actions and start backing up, guard in place. There is a time and place for macho stuff, but since this is play rather than business, this isn't it.

3) Have ice packs and butterfly bandages readily available, and use them immediately. Since chemical ice packs are expensive, note that an alternative is simply to run cold water over any bruised shins, knuckles, or what have you. Have bleach solutions available, too, for cleaning up the blood on the floor, clothes, and equipment.

4) If somebody gets solidly rung in the head, stop everything and check him carefully. If he looks okay, then he gets to go sit down and doesn't get to play again for a couple weeks. But, if he looks even the tiniest bit dazed, call 911. It's expensive, but if you drive to the ER yourself, it costs almost as much and you wait five hours. Brain injuries are subtle, and in the past couple weeks, a kid in New York died a few hours after getting rung a bit too hard during an afterschool slap boxing match.

5) Supervise. Another kid, this time in California, a few years back, also died while slap boxing. This one happened during lunch at a high school, and the teacher who was supposed to be supervising the grounds wasn't. The district lost the case in a published appeal, meaning that, at least in California, that one became case law. Ouch.

6) Rest frequently. Don't stay out there more than 3-5 minutes, either. Otherwise, people get tired, and tired people make mistakes. If you're not fit enough to last 3-5 minutes, then don't spar. Work on fitness for awhile instead.

7) As for folks who don't have insurance, not to fret. Work on high-speed control drills instead. Here's one possible drill. One person does nothing but piston-style punching, to a point about an eighth of an inch in front of the other guy's nose. The other guy does nothing but block. He doesn't get to back up, though he can move his head if likes. (Backwards or sideways, hopefully, as forward will get his nose popped.) And that's the entire drill. It's harder than it sounds, for both parties.

[trevorg]

I don't know, I have enough experience doing this kind of thing to be ok with it, not sure about the people i'm training with, or how to go about adding it to our curriculum safely, that's why I posted about it.

At what point would it be appropriate? Do I need to wait for my nidan??

I was pretty much left to my own devices by my instructor here, and I know he was ok with this kind of sparring, in limited quantity.

I'll be calling him for advice also for what it's worth.



Age range is generally 30 to 40, there is one teenager. The people actually doing this would be myself and another shodan, a student who has been with us about 2 years, and maybe the teenager if he seems to be able to handle it.

Obviously we would be starting with light to medium contact for a while before going heavier, what i'm looking for is some concrete advice on the format and ruleset, do we need a 'ref'...how shoud we deal with takedowns and ground fighting etc?

I'm just gathering advice here, not planning on starting a 'fight club' or something at my dojo, so please don't assume i'm some over zealous new shodan trying to be macho or something...that's definitely not where I'm at, nor is it where I want to be.

That said, I do feel the punch-pulling and habits built up in bunkai drills and ippon kumite (which at the moment is pretty much all the partner work we do) might be offset a bit if we could actually hit eachother with some force sometimes, and not have to stop short of real-life commitment in our techniques.

So I guess what I want is a good format, to avoid either a tippy-tap match of tag on the one end, or a sloppy hockey-brawl on other end.

Please dont take my thoughts as a personal criticism. We are all martial artists here and I wouldnt presume to offer an opinion that was outside my scope, or liken the whole fighting shebang to some movie.

If you say your sensei left you pretty much to your own devices then I would say that you havent received proper instruction. And I couldnt possibly state that a certain dan grade would be appropriate, but if you pushed me into a corner I would probably agree that nidan is about right. You have to have heaps of experience to teach students the merits of hard kumite, which in effect is full contact.

I see Joe's remarks,which I think are entirely accurate and you should take notice of them. If you are going in for hard contact (lets not call it full contact for the purpose of your query) then you really need to know what you are doing. The rules are quite different because, simply, there is the serious risk of hurting someone (as opposed to light contact).

This is the link for the rules of Kyokushin knockdown if it is of any help.
http://www.kyokushin.co.uk/full.htm

Before you have a good format you do need to experience (IMO) a great deal of this type of hard contact yourself so that you can pass this on.

Osu
Trevor

[trevorg]

Hi Trevor,

good to speak with you again, re your comments my point is if anyone was to hit someone smack on the nose, or into the floating ribs - at the right angle very hard then injury is likely, the armour stops this happening but allows the shock of what goes on to be expierienced, if only partially through the armour, if you hit weak then nothing/very little is felt through the armour, it's also good conditioning for wha tyou strike with.

obviously if someone wanted to get into full contact kumite then our system isn't the one,

but having the ability in trianing to hit hard with reduced risk of injury to what you hit IMO is a good aspect of kumite to try and incorporate into training, over semi contact points practise anyhow.

I tend to use the term heavy contact as opposed to full contact anyhow.

Hi Jim

Well as Zachariah was talking about 'heavy' jiyu kumite then what you have suggested probably wouldnt be right, as you assessed.

I think we need to get away from 'heavy' even though I referred to it for the sake of the discussion. Either its full contact or it isnt.

IMO the use of armour (which incidentally I have never ever used) is to protect the person being hit, not to allow the hitter to assess the veracity or efficacy of the technique.

Osu
Trevor

[trevorg]

Why use pads? Mouthguards and cups, maybe, but gloves and protectors get you into bad habits. For bareknuckle sparring, the rules are:

1) Emergency room visits are expensive. Does everyone have insurance, and enough money in the bank that it's no problem if they miss a few days of work? If not, then they don't get to participate in contact work.

2) While playing, if somebody -- anybody -- says "Stop," stop all offensive actions and start backing up, guard in place. There is a time and place for macho stuff, but since this is play rather than business, this isn't it.

3) Have ice packs and butterfly bandages readily available, and use them immediately. Since chemical ice packs are expensive, note that an alternative is simply to run cold water over any bruised shins, knuckles, or what have you. Have bleach solutions available, too, for cleaning up the blood on the floor, clothes, and equipment.

4) If somebody gets solidly rung in the head, stop everything and check him carefully. If he looks okay, then he gets to go sit down and doesn't get to play again for a couple weeks. But, if he looks even the tiniest bit dazed, call 911. It's expensive, but if you drive to the ER yourself, it costs almost as much and you wait five hours. Brain injuries are subtle, and in the past couple weeks, a kid in New York died a few hours after getting rung a bit too hard during an afterschool slap boxing match.

5) Supervise. Another kid, this time in California, a few years back, also died while slap boxing. This one happened during lunch at a high school, and the teacher who was supposed to be supervising the grounds wasn't. The district lost the case in a published appeal, meaning that, at least in California, that one became case law. Ouch.

6) Rest frequently. Don't stay out there more than 3-5 minutes, either. Otherwise, people get tired, and tired people make mistakes. If you're not fit enough to last 3-5 minutes, then don't spar. Work on fitness for awhile instead.

7) As for folks who don't have insurance, not to fret. Work on high-speed control drills instead. Here's one possible drill. One person does nothing but piston-style punching, to a point about an eighth of an inch in front of the other guy's nose. The other guy does nothing but block. He doesn't get to back up, though he can move his head if likes. (Backwards or sideways, hopefully, as forward will get his nose popped.) And that's the entire drill. It's harder than it sounds, for both parties.

Couldn't agree more. Sounds like just like karate as it should be practised.
Its all about learning to deflect, block, absorb (if you're on the receiving end).

Osu
Trevor

[ZachZinn]

Before you have a good format you do need to experience (IMO) a great deal of this type of hard contact yourself so that you can pass this on.



I guess I shouldn't have used the term 'full contact', what I was thinking about doing is a world away from kyokushin fighting, and yeah the armor would be for the purpose of safety.

At any rate, thanks for the input.

[trevorg]

Zachariah

No probs. I think what we are trying to say is that putting armour on is sensible and wise for those who train that way.

It protects those against others who do not know what level of contact they are making. It also allows the aggressor to strike the body really hard knowing they wont be causing too much damage. There is a big argument (and has been for many years) about people who train air punching, or making no contact and when the real thing comes along they know nothing else and finish up trashed, so in that regard feeling the contact is a very good thing.

However, if you want to know what its like to feel hit, dont wear the armour.

I stand corrected, but IMO it would take a very advanced pair of fighters to be able to differentiate between the penetration/power/strength of each and every technique from being struck whilst wearing armour so wearing it will not allow that assessment to be made.

Osu
Trevor

[shoshinkan]

Hi Trevor,

you of course make good points and I respect your expieirence on this,

however im happy with the light armour, it really is helping where I need it to, and no one is getting injured.

we also do alot of conditioning drills with no armour,

and from time to time dojo kumite with no pads - work to the level you and your partner want to, within reason.

the armour is just part of our kumite, not the whole,

[ZachZinn]

Zachariah

No probs. I think what we are trying to say is that putting armour on is sensible and wise for those who train that way.


From my perspective if we fight with a heavy level of contact the armor would be mandatory; i'm personally not willing to sustain the kind of beating that can come from bare knuckle heavy contact, at least not regularly.

However I defnitely see the value in training that way.

We do plenty of makiwara and heavy bag work to avoid the 'air punching' thing; punching air only is insufficient I think.

Well i've pretty much decided that for now ippon kumite at a higher intensity level suits our needs for the moment, thanks for the advice guys.

[trevorg]

Go for it Zach !!

Osu
Trevor

[powerof0ne]

I guess I shouldn't have used the term 'full contact', what I was thinking about doing is a world away from kyokushin fighting, and yeah the armor would be for the purpose of safety.

At any rate, thanks for the input.

I've done something similar to what you're talking about but the only gear we wore was a mouth piece and cup. This was in Shito Ryu and was only with other yudansha. I think that body armor and gloves develops bad habbits in Karate. Injuries did happen sometimes, but not intentionally. I've only taught casses of Karate doing knockdown/bareknuckle rules("kyokushin fighting as you put it)so can't really give you any advice on what to do because I'm not your sensei but think you should maybe seek guidance from another sensei, especially if you have your own students.

[ZachZinn]

I've done something similar to what you're talking about but the only gear we wore was a mouth piece and cup. This was in Shito Ryu and was only with other yudansha. I think that body armor and gloves develops bad habbits in Karate. Injuries did happen sometimes, but not intentionally. I've only taught casses of Karate doing knockdown/bareknuckle rules("kyokushin fighting as you put it)so can't really give you any advice on what to do because I'm not your sensei but think you should maybe seek guidance from another sensei, especially if you have your own students.


Thanks for the advice, I've decided for now i'm gonna hold off on it and concentrate on bunkai drills, ippon kumite etc. Down the line once people's skills (mine included) are a bit more up to snuff maybe it'll be time for this.

[trevorg]

"Up to snuff" - Now, that's what I call heavy kumite !

Osu
Trevor

[shotobouv]

Thanks for the advice, I've decided for now i'm gonna hold off on it and concentrate on bunkai drills, ippon kumite etc. Down the line once people's skills (mine included) are a bit more up to snuff maybe it'll be time for this.

You didn't really say if there was a goal for the kumite training. Do you want to compete in tournaments, or is it for your karate development? Just asking, I find there are differences in training and mind set.

Do you practice, jiyu ippon kumite (free style one step sparring)? This I have found to be one of the best for continuing to develop the power of ippon kumite with the distance control needed for jiyu kimite.

I would suggest getting a book or two for reference.

My favorite and used often, "Karate Fighting Techniques", by Hirokazu Kanazawa.

Also, "Dynamic Karate", by Masatoshi Nakayama.

I think these books or ones similar, that have detailed instruction and discussion about kumite and the many forms there are, can help you develope good controled kumite. They have intermediate drills for kumite that can help with multiple attacks and defences.

Of course, get advise and train with others who have greater experiance also.

Just some thoughts. I hope it helps.

Oss.

Tim Blindauer
Shotokan Karate

[Steelybaby]

"Up to snuff" - what a great phrase! lol!

I am currently a 3rd Kyu (Wado-Ryu) and am at present working hard to bring my sparring up to scratch. Basically, I am thinking too much and not doing enough!

I am trying to stay on topic here, but thought I might put in a few thoughts from a non-black, working hard to improve perspective.

In class kumite we run a "nice and light" (I suppose semi-contact) philosophy in that you'll get tagged in the ribs, uraken to the side of the head etc with the force of say a firm slap. If you ribs get bruised, you've been hit to hard.

Gear wise, usual mitts/shins, but little else. Mouthguards shouldn't form put of the equation as we de not allow face strikes in the class (but I wear one if we have a mini-tournie or similar anyway).

Anyhoo, whatever protective gear is involved, I am not a believer in full-contact in class until a certain standard is reached (I could even suggest 3rd kyu and above). My reasons for this are a bit wussy but sort of valid.

Our Sensei will allow us to "mix it up a bit" and get quite a firm spar going provided both protagonists so wish. The problem here is that a few of the junior grade students (fifth/fourth kyu and grown men I should point out) confuse well executed and strong technique delivery with aggression and brawling and they get carried away.

For a student such as myself who uses sparring as a means to identify an opening, hit it and then get the hell out of there before re-setting, this can be really irritating. Not because I get hit, but because all I have to do for two odd minutes is evade a flurry of silly blows and ill co-ordinated kicks, with perhaps a couple of digs from me.

However, if two junior guys spar firm, then one will always cop something painful and have to sit out. This is okay if there was a valid lesson being learnt following a good move, but it is inevitably through silly, over-agressive sparring. It happened last night. Brawl, brawl, brawl and then "owww my eye!"

I lost my cool once during one of these "firmer spar sessions" and got so frustrated I really put a punch on my opponent (a good friend too) to the base of his ribs. I felt really bad about that as it caused him severe discomfort for a good few weeks.

Sparring with the higher grades is a different experience entirely of course. Light or firm contact, the moves are executed in a way that you can learn from and if I am lucky I can put together a combo that goes into my mental notebook (pretty rare mind you!).

I must point out that Sensei under no circumstances encourages this behaviour. If he allows things to get firmer, then he expects the quality of the sparring to remain the same. It is always the same sort of people that get carried away and the same people who have to be told to calm it down/sit out.

And along similar lines, the students I refer to are all committed and do train real hard. I just feel perhaps that a little of the "Karate Do" has been lost when it comes to the sparring.

Maybe I am just too wary!

Cheers

Jimmy B

[shotobouv]

Just a few thoughts on lower rank sparring, to avoid injury, hopfully.

There should be no contact to the face, and this will be harder for lower belts. They do not have the same control as a black belt should, they are learning.

Body type blows should only touch the gi. I have delt with rib stikes and it is not fun.

I would suggest keeping the sparring times short, like 30 seconds, but under a minuet for lower belts. You lose more control the longer you go, muscle fatigue sets in. It will give a greater rest for all involved and a chance to maintain control longer.

Just one last thought. An opponent running into a fist is both peoples fault, just bad timing and distance. You failing to pull a punch and hitting someone is your fault.

Just my opinon.

Tim Blindauer
Shotokan Karate

[gwroy20]

I don't know why there is so much concern over contact during sparring. I studied Shotokan when I was much younger, and began sparring when I was a white belt. We wore foot pads, light gloves, and foam helmets. We were able to take the skills we learned and apply them in any way we could, albeit in a controlled manner, during sparring. In hindsight, I realize now that I went to a good school.

Today I practice Kyokushin karate, and full contact sparring is introduced as early as day one. During sparring, one practitioner will generally go as hard as his partner is willing. Kyokushin does not allow hand strikes to the head in sparring, but foot and knee strikes are O.K. In four years of Kyokushin, the only more than trivial injuries I have come across have been the result of the practitioner having not worn a mouthguard (guilty) or cup (never happen). This isn't to say that bruises, sprains, cuts, even the occasional concussions are not seen (and often) but I've never in my own experience seen anyone's life or long-term health put in danger as a result of this type of sparring.

One common argument that I've seen already in this thread is that putting too much emphasis on sparring early on is done at the expense of proper technique. I couldn't agree with this less. It is during sparring that one realizes how the basic techniques he or she has learned are meant to be applied. As a result of this, drilling forms becomes a whole new experience, it being that much easier to visualize the application of each individual technique.

Without this kind of training, how do we know whether we are ready to use the skills that we have learned? What other way is there to be ready than to have done it a hundred times before?

[gwroy20]

Apologies, I forgot to sign my post.

----------------
Roy Hubbard

[trevorg]

I don't know why there is so much concern over contact during sparring. I studied Shotokan when I was much younger, and began sparring when I was a white belt. We wore foot pads, light gloves, and foam helmets. We were able to take the skills we learned and apply them in any way we could, albeit in a controlled manner, during sparring. In hindsight, I realize now that I went to a good school.

Today I practice Kyokushin karate, and full contact sparring is introduced as early as day one. During sparring, one practitioner will generally go as hard as his partner is willing. Kyokushin does not allow hand strikes to the head in sparring, but foot and knee strikes are O.K. In four years of Kyokushin, the only more than trivial injuries I have come across have been the result of the practitioner having not worn a mouthguard (guilty) or cup (never happen). This isn't to say that bruises, sprains, cuts, even the occasional concussions are not seen (and often) but I've never in my own experience seen anyone's life or long-term health put in danger as a result of this type of sparring.

One common argument that I've seen already in this thread is that putting too much emphasis on sparring early on is done at the expense of proper technique. I couldn't agree with this less. It is during sparring that one realizes how the basic techniques he or she has learned are meant to be applied. As a result of this, drilling forms becomes a whole new experience, it being that much easier to visualize the application of each individual technique.

Without this kind of training, how do we know whether we are ready to use the skills that we have learned? What other way is there to be ready than to have done it a hundred times before?


Sorry, Roy, but I have to disagree with you when you say that during sparring one realizes how the basic techniques he or she has learned are meant to be applied.

This can only work if every technique which is to be used in kumite has been learnt, but it is usually the case that in any form of sparring it becomes a free for all and (a)there isnt time to realize how it is meant to be applied (unless one is advanced) and (b) if you are faced with a high grade who has a broad range of attacking techniques that you havent learned to deal with.

Osu
Trevor

[Kchef]

Full contact???? Or free sparring
Semi free
One step sparring
Three step sparring

In Shotokan karate we practice all four but it is not until a person reaches the rank of 3rd kyu that they really get a sense for what free sparing is. The reason being that they really aren’t ready to move up to that level of sparring. In the beginning a person is still learning the different punches and kicks with just a slight emphasis on control. They start with 3 step typically and then to ipon kumite or one step. A beginner first learns the moves and works on his or her ability to perform them correctly without hurting themselves. Flexibility and conditioning come first. A person is just starting to focus more on control when they reach 3rd kyu. To put them in a situation where they are thrown into a free spar with any black belt would really be unfair to the student. They don’t have the speed or the muscle memory to truly be of much good. The chances of giving the other opponent a black eye is also much greater because of lack of control.

Full contact is something entirely different in my opinion. That’s something we watch on Spike TV. Tough guys beating the hell out of each other are always a bit fun to watch.

Free sparring is still controlled. Meaning we should not make contact with their face. We are to touch the Gi but no more. We essentially show the opponent that we could have connected had we wanted to but didn’t. In my humble opinion no mouth guard or protection is needed until we are in a competitive situation in a tournament. There it is advisable to use a mouth guard but there are no gloves worn. Even then, you aren’t supposed to really make contact with the face. If you do there is a good chance that you’ll get disqualified.

An all out brawl doesn’t improve anyone’s karate.

K. Allen