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john_lord_b3
11th May 2007, 18:00
Hello Judo friends,

In an old book, written in 1951 by J. Dick Schilder ("Judo Art of Self Defence"), there is a step-by-step explanation of a techniques called "Ryo Ashi Hishigi", a double leglock which looks very much like pro-wrestling's "Boston Crab" technique.

I wonder, how many of you have been taught this technique AS PART OF JUDO, and do you still practice it?

Many thanks!

Ben

Brian Griffin
13th May 2007, 11:01
1. I was.

2. I do.

john_lord_b3
14th May 2007, 12:22
Here are da pics..

http://www.mediafire.com/?9dcjm2vqxze

http://www.mediafire.com/?9dcjm2vqxze

http://www.mediafire.com/?3omqcmctclt

http://www.mediafire.com/?3omqcmctclt

So, lookin' like sumthin ya learn back then, Griffin san?

Anyway.. who taught ya those nice tricks?

Brian Griffin
15th May 2007, 07:43
So, lookin' like sumthin ya learn back then, Griffin san?Yup :)

Anyway.. who taught ya those nice tricks?
My sensei, who learned them from Kawaishi.

Okazaki taught the same techniques, and they are still part of Danzan Ryu.
The "Boston Crab" is known in DZR as Kazaguruma.
Note that many pro-wrestlers trained with Okazaki "back in the day" so they may have picked up some tricks from him.

john_lord_b3
15th May 2007, 07:49
Neat, so you were from the Kawaishi Judo/Jiu-Jitsu style. I heard only good things about it. One of my Judo teachers studied with Mr. Haesendonck who also connected to Kawaishi sensei. Schilder's book is very interesting, it mentions something like "there are two kinds of judo, attack judo and judo defence, the first is for competition and has rules, the second is jiu-jitsu and only for self-defence, in self-defence there are no rules".

Wonderful days, the 1920s-1950s. At that time, Judo and Jujutsu were taught at the same dojo by the same person. Nowadays many Judo dojo are not interested in self-defense anymore, so we have to go to other dojo for those neat Jujutsu tricks :( Praises for people like your sensei, who still teach those tricks in Judo dojo.

john_lord_b3
15th May 2007, 07:51
Note that many pro-wrestlers trained with Okazaki "back in the day" so they may have picked up some tricks from him.

Whoa, now this IS news!

And I thought Japanese pro-wrestlers adopted them from American pro-wrestlers :)

Apparently it was the other way around!

Thank you for informing me.

Brian Griffin
15th May 2007, 08:28
Neat, so you were from the Kawaishi Judo/Jiu-Jitsu style.Kawaishi taught Judo. Kodokan Judo. He did have his own teaching method, which proved to be very successful, but he was teaching Judo.

Schilder's book is very interesting, it mentions something like "there are two kinds of judo, attack judo and judo defence, the first is for competition and has rules, the second is jiu-jitsu and only for self-defence, in self-defence there are no rules".You need to recognize that before WWII, the term "Judo" was not very familiar to most people, whereas "Jiu Jitsu" had entered the lexicon fifty years earlier. For many, the terms were largely synonymous and interchangeable.

As a kid, when I used to ask my sensei what the difference was between Judo and jujutsu, he would answer that Judo was what we did when we trained at the dojo on the mat, or when we competed at a tournament. If we used those techniques for real fighting, in some alley or on a battlefield, then that was "Jiu-Jitsu."

Kawaishi used the two terms to differentiate between the techniques he taught as randori-waza (which could be used freely in contest), and the goshin-waza that could be applied only in a self-defense context.
Kawaishi taught both types of techniques, at each belt-rank, as you progressed through his "system."

Kano himself drew the same distinction, saying that if we applied his Principle of Maximum Efficiency for purposes of physical-attack-and-defense, then that was jujutsu, whereas if we applied the Principle more broadly, to all aspects of our lives, then that would be Judo.


Wonderful days, the 1920s-1950s. At that time, Judo and Jujutsu were taught at the same dojo by the same person. Nowadays many Judo dojo are not interested in self-defense anymore, so we have to go to other dojo for those neat Jujutsu tricks :( Praises for people like your sensei, who still teach those tricks in Judo dojo.
A lot of us still teach them...but they are actually Judo tricks :)

Brian Griffin
15th May 2007, 08:33
Whoa, now this IS news!
Joseph Svinth has much more on this connection, but Okazaki definitely influenced a number of wrestlers. I'm sure there was influence in the other direction as well.

I first learned that "Boston Crab" from my sensei and it appears in Kawaishi's books as a standard technique. I'm not aware of any connection between Kawaishi and the western wrestling community of his day.

Jonesy
15th May 2007, 22:04
You may find the attached source of interest.

Source: Kawaishi, M., author & Harrison, E. J., translator. 1955. My Method of Judo, W. Foulsham & Co. Ltd., London, UK (pp.223-224)

Joseph Svinth
16th May 2007, 02:25
On the wrestlers, everybody learned from everybody. George Hackenschmidt talked about jujutsu, back before 1910. On the West Coast, Kaimon Kudo did judo at Seattle Dojo before becoming a professional wrestler, and after he retired, he did judo at the Gardena Judo Club. Kudo also trained kids in judo in Honolulu during WWII. Rubberman Higami taught judo in Honolulu for years. Tokugoro Ito, Mitsuyo Maeda, Yukio Tani, and so on, were just the famous ones. For a mention of Okazaki and Higami, see the article on Higami at http://ejmas.com/jalt/2007jalt/jcsart_Svinth_0701.html .

As for Kawaishi, he wrestled professionally in the San Diego area during the 1920s. I don't have easy access to Southern California papers, so haven't looked him up. Rafu Shimpo probably devoted ink to the man, but in those days, the paper was still almost entirely written in Japanese.

MarkF
16th May 2007, 23:52
I first learned that hold while wrestlling in college but it was rarely used. It is a fun move to do, but doing it correctly isn't easy, at least not in the judo dojo.

My teacher said "Learn it well then leave alone." When I asked what he meant, he said that young people think they can do that and other holds over and over again, because "it too fun. It too dangerous too. Maybe not now but you feel it later."

But it was Gene LeBell who was the guy who convinced me of that. He wasn't of the same opinion of my teacher. He asked "How many hard throws do you take on a weekly basis? You are going to feel that more than anything else. I do, anyway.

As to the Judo/jujutsu thing, I read an article that was from an interview given by a supposedly famous meiji-era jujutsu man (1964 or 1965 and I don't remember which one, but it may have been BB). He said something along the lines of "You practice hard and learn jujutsu. After twenty or thirty years, you may be doing judo. It is more likely not to reach that level (I remember that it was translated, but I kept that thought up front. Brian was right, I think, but this particular statement was something else.

As to whether the Japanese pro-rassler used what he learned in the ring in the dojo, this was likely if he was a pro-wrestler. Being much smaller and quicker than the average western rassler, it wasn't only the Japanese. If you can, watch the Mexican pro-rassler. I think some things were similar and, most being in the broad light-weight rassler, well, they were bound to happen.

You do not have to look far. One wrestler,who died recently was in his 30s (wrestling "related" njuries/illness) learned much of what he knew from his great-grandfather and grand-father and his uncle. one of the greatest of his time, great grand-father was Gorry Guerrero.



It take very talented moves and flashy finishes against those big guys, but in the 1940s and 1950s, to grab the fans while convincing them you were the real thing, well, you were not going to be body slamming and throwing them around for a couple of hours in the main event.


Mark

john_lord_b3
21st May 2007, 03:16
elders and seniors, thank you for the information, please allow me to digest them and I will get back to you all later!

Orpheus
24th May 2007, 18:33
I'm not sure, but I believe the drawings above were reprinted in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

Steve Baroody