One handed long sword Koryu?

[Swordy]

Hi guys, a question! :)

In all my readings about japanese swordsmanship and their different schools, I've never heard of a school that specializes in Single Long Sword One-handed Weapon Style.

I know batto/iai is done with one hand, but its only for nukiuchi... But after that, they revert back to Two-handed style.

Kodachi or tanto is usually done with one hand which i think is logical because they are short weapons.

What?? No Single Long Sword One-handed Weapon Style?? Haha :p
Did the japanese swordsmen of old see something wrong with One handed Style Katana?

It appears to me that japanese swordsmanship seemed to have skipped an evolutionary curve (or something) and went directly to sword in each hand... Two-Sword Style. :rolleyes:

Any body know why this seems to be the case??

Chris O

[cxt]

Swordy

Not sure how to answer you.

What can one say about a given martial culture, esp from a distance of so many years?

I would guess that for whatever reason the JSA simply found the 2 handed weapon to be very useful for their given combative situation.

I could speculate, but that is all it would be.

BTW, the sword in each hand thing--although many ryu had such techniques, they were not often used.
Even the Niten Ryu seems to use the 2 handed grip (instead of a sword in each hand) on many of their kata.

[Swordy]

Swordy

Not sure how to answer you.

What can one say about a given martial culture, esp from a distance of so many years?

I would guess that for whatever reason the JSA simply found the 2 handed weapon to be very useful for their given combative situation.

I could speculate, but that is all it would be.

BTW, the sword in each hand thing--although many ryu had such techniques, they were not often used.
Even the Niten Ryu seems to use the 2 handed grip (instead of a sword in each hand) on many of their kata.
Yup, thats it really... I'm not quite sure of how to ask this question in the first place. I just wonder why the japanese developed a... natural tendency... towards the 2handed grip.

Well, European swordsmanship developed one-handed sword techniques and i suppose it is quite effective... but the Japanese seemed to have skipped it

Could it be because of their culture? To chop powerfully like a truly determined samurai should? :)

Could it be the katana was not meant to be weilded 1handed? Perhaps it's a folly to use a katana this way?

Perhaps the question delves into the realm of speculation and may have no real answer... I just wonder if there might be a reason why?

Chris Jefferson O

[Mr. T.]

Hi Chris,

Please post your full name when you post. E-budo rules :rolleyes:

Now to your question. Cutting with a Japanese sword, a katana (iaito in my case) is a lot easier with two hands. So I believe it's mostly a control issue. It's a lot easier to controle a 3 feet, 1 kg razor with 2 hands. Besides, if you look at Japanese warriors of the old day, they don't carry a shield, if you have a spare hand why not use it to make a better cut.

Could be wrong but that's how I see it.

[Swordy]

Hi Chris,

Please post your full name when you post. E-budo rules :rolleyes:

Now to your question. Cutting with a Japanese sword, a katana (iaito in my case) is a lot easier with two hands. So I believe it's mostly a control issue. It's a lot easier to controle a 3 feet, 1 kg razor with 2 hands. Besides, if you look at Japanese warriors of the old day, they don't carry a shield, if you have a spare hand why not use it to make a better cut.

Could be wrong but that's how I see it.
Done!

I suppose.. but sometimes it might be too much to use 2hands... and a bit too messy :p

Considering Japanese are known for the cleanliness. haha :)

Chris Jefferson O

[Aozora]

Hi Chris... Neil Gendzwil can probably answer this better than I, but in kendo there are a number of one handed techniques. The most common I've seen is the one hand release to tsuki, or thrust. Also, the kendo guys who go nito wield the long sword in one hand.

Iai folks learn to draw and cut with one hand, does that count?

As far as NIR, I think the idea is that while Musashi advocated training with one hand, it's more along the lines of "being prepared to use the sword with one hand, if you have to." However, there's also the strategy in there to wield two swords when taking on large groups, etc, etc.

In general it's more advantageous to put both hands on nihonto. However, there are certain situations where that's not done for some advantage. Watch some of the TSKSR guys and you'll see they release one hand during kata at various points, if for nothing else so that they don't get cut (I'm not a katori guys, so you'll have to ask one of them).

[Swordy]

Hi Chris... Neil Gendzwil can probably answer this better than I, but in kendo there are a number of one handed techniques. The most common I've seen is the one hand release to tsuki, or thrust. Also, the kendo guys who go nito wield the long sword in one hand.

Iai folks learn to draw and cut with one hand, does that count?

As far as NIR, I think the idea is that while Musashi advocated training with one hand, it's more along the lines of "being prepared to use the sword with one hand, if you have to." However, there's also the strategy in there to wield two swords when taking on large groups, etc, etc.

In general it's more advantageous to put both hands on nihonto. However, there are certain situations where that's not done for some advantage. Watch some of the TSKSR guys and you'll see they release one hand during kata at various points, if for nothing else so that they don't get cut (I'm not a katori guys, so you'll have to ask one of them).
Yup, i noted those in my first post.

But its only one handed for a moment, and they revert back to two hands in most of their techniques. I've yet to see the japanese sword used one handed all the way. In a way similar to a European long sword (or bastard sword) or a Chinese Jian (the one that can be used 2handed or 1handed).

[Mark Murray]

Yup, i noted those in my first post.

But its only one handed for a moment, and they revert back to two hands in most of their techniques. I've yet to see the japanese sword used one handed all the way. In a way similar to a European long sword (or bastard sword) or a Chinese Jian (the one that can be used 2handed or 1handed).


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[K. Cantwell]

Since you specifically mention a "one-handed long-sword" style, my question would be what do you want to use the other hand for?

Ostensibly, with shorter weapons, you can use the other hand for grappling at close range, but by doing this with a long sword, you give up some distance.

In other words, what would be the advantage of using the weapon with only one-hand and keeping the other hand empty as a principle?

Also, these cuts are found in koryu. There are many kata that call for two-handed cuts, but one-handed cuts could also be executed. (There are also kata that call for one-handed cuts specifically.) Remember that what you see is rarely what you get with this stuff. By having a school specifically limited to “one-handed cuts,” you would be taking parochial to a new level. What would be the benefit?

Kevin Cantwell

[Max Chouinard]

Actualy the japanese had one handed sword in the nambukocho (if I remember?) period. But with the development in armors and weaponry they soon prefered two handed weapons.

As for fighting one handed with a katana, if you don't have something else in your other hand as a kodachi, it's not worth the effort. You lose speed, control, power, and you only gain a small reach advantage wich you can have just by letting one of the hand go for a moment.... A ryu trying to fight with such a weapon exclusively one handed wouldn't have survived long.

[Liam Cognet]

The short sword, which is used in one hand, is still pretty long. A blade could be a shortsword if it fell short of 2 shaku, that's still a pretty long blade.

The skill if using a longsword with one hand may be usefull on horseback.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I don't think you should start dabbling in "European long sword," Swordy (or whoever you really are). As a Fencing Master, I can assure you that "point weapons" are invariably used with one hand, with some of the olde schools using a poignard in the other hand.

Bladed European weapons, however, were (again almost invariably, ignoring the saber) swung with two hands. Why? Because you can impart a whole lot more cutting power with two hands. Same goes for the katana/tachi/daito/etc.

Why use less than half your power when you don't have to? When Samurai were on horseback, they used much longer blades that they swung one-handed (or so I understand), but the forward momentum of the horse certainly added a bunch of energy to their swing! I do wonder how many swings they could take before losing their grip, but that's another post.

[Brian Owens]

...What?? No Single Long Sword One-handed Weapon Style?? Haha :p
Did the japanese swordsmen of old see something wrong with One handed Style Katana?

It appears to me that japanese swordsmanship seemed to have skipped an evolutionary curve (or something) and went directly to sword in each hand... Two-Sword Style. :rolleyes:
Actually, as mentioned above, they didn't -- as far as I understand -- skip an evolutionary step; they just evolved.

One-handed use of the tachi was the flavor of the day, and if you examine old tachi you can see that the tsuka were often shorter and more curved than later katana.

Two-handed swordmanship came later, and -- with only occasional exceptions -- became the dominant technique, and nito/ryoto evolved from that as a method occasionally suitable for the more individual combat common to later Sengoku-jidai and the Edo period.

So...one-handed > two-handed > two one-handed swords (sometimes).

[J. L. Badgley]

I'm going to second what Brian said.

If you look at the older armies, you see one handed swords and shields. The tachi are often shown in one hand, especially by folks on horseback who are otherwise controlling their mount with their off-hand. Two hands appear to be used occasionally to provide greater striking power.

Even with the development of the katana, you still see one handed techniques in kata where you are going for reach or a quick strike. Still, if you don't have to, why not use your other hand on the tsuka (unless, as in some techniques, you are using it to grab/entangle your opponent)?

And although we see nito in NIR, that's not the only place that you have something else in your off-hand. There are plenty of old ryuha that use a second implement in the off-hand for some techniques, whether that be a wakizashi, a jutte, a tessen, etc.

So the katana is more like the 'bastard sword' or 'hand and a half' sword of Europe, where it is really up to you whether you want one or two hands on it. As mentioned, two hands gives you an advantage in control and power, and it seems logical that's what you see and train the most, but it isn't all there is.

Also, look at European swordsmanship. Check out things like I.33 where they are supporting the long sword with their other hand, or various other manuscripts where they don't have anything else in their off hand--if they can, they usually have the second hand on the hilt.

[Swordy]

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/profile...o=editsignature
Many thanks! Ive been looking for a way to access the signature page for months now. ^_^ Is something wrong with the forum database and control panel? Your pictures dont look so good.


one-handed > two-handed > two one-handed swords (sometimes). Im not quite convinced with this. Using a two handed sword is extremely different way of handling. For instance if you use a two handed grip, you do get more power but the trade off is you force yourself to be a significantly nearer to your opponent's reach and slightly less mobile. It's truly a whole new style. I cant see it springing forth from 2handed style or 2handed style springing forth from it.

On horse back? Power is gained thru skillfull handing of the horse i suppose. Btw, are there any school of swordsmanship on horse back? :)

I'll continue later, got to go home :)

[Douglas Wylie]

Im not quite convinced with this.

Umm K.

Asked and answered.

Moving on...

[Swordy]

As a Fencing Master, I can assure you that "point weapons" are invariably used with one hand, with some of the olde schools using a poignard in the other hand.

Bladed European weapons, however, were (again almost invariably, ignoring the saber) swung with two hands. Why? Because you can impart a whole lot more cutting power with two hands. Same goes for the katana/tachi/daito/etc.

Hmm... very interesting! So, Weapon design dictates the proper fighting style? :)

Could it be that thrusting techniques are the greatest advantages of straight pointed swords and one handed techniques also take advantage of thrusting and straight swords?

The more curved the sword the more slashing techniques, and because of its curvature the less chance of thrusting techniques being incorporated, and powerful two handed techniques are more favorable with this type of weapon?

Japanese swords curvature are quite common. It is known for it's slashing techniques which are quite powerful and are preferably wielded two handed. The Sori is not too deep enough to inhibit thrusting techniques... :)

If one can say Japanese sword design remained relatively unchanged all through out Japanese history then it would be somewhat consistent why one handed techniques are rare?

[K. Cantwell]

If one can say Japanese sword design remained relatively unchanged all through out Japanese history then it would be somewhat consistent why one handed techniques are rare?

I'm not sure what you mean by "rare." There are a plethora of one-handed techniques within the combative arts of Japan. You see them employed mostly with smaller weapons because it makes more kinesthetic sense. You do, however, see them with the long-sword also. As has been mentioned, the balance of the longer swords makes two-handed wielding more facile.



So, Weapon design dictates the proper fighting style

Well...yes...in conjunction with the limitations of the human body. You are not, for example, going to see many one-handed techniques for the naginata. Not surprising when you take into account the size and weight of the naginata.

Kevin Cantwell

[DeanP]

In MJER we have a practice set called Hayanuki (Eishin Ryu done continuously) which also has a variation where you perform the katas one handed. While this is just done for practice purposes im sure you could adapt the whole sillybus to adjust all the cuts to one handed if you were that interested in doing so thereby in theory creating a one handed long sword school which I now claim sokeship to :)

[cxt]

Swordy

You might also find that the techniques used with the short sword somewhat different in terms of focus.

[Fred27]

A good and ready example of one-handed strikes and blockings with the long-sword can be found in Kashima Shinto-ryu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvEegZ1XAE).

[Brian Owens]

...Im not quite convinced with this.
That's your prerogative; however, you did come here to ask.

Since you don't want to believe me, might I suggest that you read any number of books on the subject of the history of Japanese swords, the history of the Japanese sword arts, general history of Budo, etc., etc., etc.

There really is not much question of which came first and which followed.


...If one can say Japanese sword design remained relatively unchanged all through out Japanese history...
One might say that, but I would not be the one.

See my suggestion above.

[Swordy]

That's your prerogative; however, you did come here to ask.

Since you don't want to believe me, might I suggest that you read any number of books on the subject of the history of Japanese swords, the history of the Japanese sword arts, general history of Budo, etc., etc., etc.

There really is not much question of which came first and which followed.

One might say that, but I would not be the one.

See my suggestion above.
Hey... sorry for the misunderstanding. :) The question was why the absence of any one handed sword schools. Not which swordstyle came first! You guys gave me a most probable example of 1 handed sword techniques when on horse.

Dont get me wrong guys, I do know that early samurai faught on horse back with bow and wearing long tachi for melee (weilded most probably 1handed since the other hand was probably for holding the reins of the horse).

Perhaps japanese warriors did have matial art systems devoted to 1 handed sword weilding in the past.

But why didn't that style or any variation(maybe when not on horsback) of it stick? Why so many 2-handed kenjutsu (which i think are far removed from the techniques possible with swords weilded 1-handed)? It looked to me like a different animal. :) If 1handed style stuck, then we would be seeing a variety of kenjutsu today devoted to 1-handed sword fighting! Wouldn't we?

So i wondered if something was truly wrong about it that history forced it to die out... from posts by you guys, I realized it was just de-emphasized because perhaps because of weapon weight being a hindrance weakening the one handed grip.

It still didn't sound right to me since japanese swords are just a few ounces heavier(or lighter??) than rapiers, jians or some other swords for that matter. (I'm just guessing the average weight here)

So i read the post by ken-hawai (Thanks man! :)) about his experience in western sword styles on bladed weapons and pointed weapons. It gave me an idea (a theory! :) ) thinking about the relationship between straight swords are for thrusting and easier/better/more natural 1handed for more reach and curved sword for slashing easier/better/more natural 2 handed for more power and Thrusting techniques are less applicable the more curved the sword even if the weight of the weapon is lowered to zero those three theories would still hold SOME truth because... i would attribute it to human biomechanics. :)

So I'm infering that for the most part of Japanese sword history, Most Japanese swords have a nice curvature that gave itself more to slashing and is best known... 'legendary' for it's cutting ability. Still the sori is not too deep to negate thrusting techniques. Because of it's design, it lends itself to more 2handed techniques and perhaps a few SPECIAL 1handed techniques only on special occasions.

:)

[Douglas Wylie]

Still the sori is not too deep to negate thrusting techniques.

Hey, thats an awesome idea!

I thought up a name for your innovation- lets call it- "tsuki".

I'll bet that by the time I write this, the concept will have caught on so well that everyone will try to act like they have been doing it all along.

[Brian Pettett]

Chris, I can't recall what training you have offhand, but have you ever swung a katana one-handed for any length of time? I think the limitations of doing so would present themselves rather quickly; wielding a three- to four-pound blade with one hand quickly becomes uncomfortable. Using both hands gives much greater control and placement of cuts, balances and stabilizes the upper body, and - assuming these techniques are practiced repetitively - using two hands reduces the likelihood of injury due to muscle and tendon strain.

For those reasons alone, although I'm sure you'll find various koryu schools that use certain one-handed waza (ours has a limited number of them), but to find a school that specialize(d) in that isn't very likely.

[Chidokan]

I would like the thought of a 'one handed style' for a horse based school, similar to say the British manual for cavalymen published during the Napoleonic wars. However given the samurai trained more as a dragoon, (ie both on and off horse with close and ranged weaponry), I would have thought the techniques would be blended into a general sword using method rather than have something specifically devoted to horsemen as per hussars etc...and I think thats what we have in fact! No doubt there were specialists in particular types of mounted weaponry, but so far I have only come across 'famous names' using either spear or bow, not swordsmen.

[Fred27]

Chris, I can't recall what training you have offhand, but have you ever swung a katana one-handed for any length of time? I think the limitations of doing so would present themselves rather quickly; wielding a three- to four-pound blade with one hand quickly becomes uncomfortable.

I agree. We have some one-handed cuts in SMR plus two swords at once and its definitely no picnic..And at the same time, In my infinite wisdom, I ordered a heavier bokuto which makes my wrist cry bloody murder.´Cant imagine swinging a shinken one-handed in prolonged combat.

[Finny]

Courtesy of our esteemed moderator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMAuWf7qGDY

[Chris Thompson]

>Bladed European weapons, however, were (again almost invariably, ignoring the saber) swung with two hands>

This would also require one to disregard the broadsword, messer, sidesword and arming sword, all of which were used with one hand. The weight of these weapons is generally in the 2-3 lb. range.

-Chris Thompson

[Fred27]

I would have made a poor knight in order words. :rolleyes:

[Chris Thompson]

I would have made a poor knight in order words. :rolleyes:

You get used to it. :)

[Swordy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMAuWf7qGDY
Wowow! thats HNIR?? What a coincidence!?! The bokkens are rather straight too!

Thanks a lot Finny! :)


I thought up a name for your innovation- lets call it- "tsuki". Haha... Im a sword noob! :) Its still very big news to me! It gave me quite a renewed appreciation for thrusting techniques.


Chris, I can't recall what training you have offhand, but have you ever swung a katana one-handed for any length of time? I think the limitations of doing so would present themselves rather quickly; wielding a three- to four-pound blade with one hand quickly becomes uncomfortable.
I practiced kenjutsu back in college at the University of San Carlos here in Cebu though only for a short time. I just neglected to posting this because its been a while since i practiced with them and it counts to nothing compared to what you guys do. Now im just in the office most of the time.

Hey, I checked out atrim's swords. His katanas are also just about 2 to 3 pounds. Perhaps with excellent balance, it will feel very light.

[Brian Pettett]

Perhaps. Even swinging around a sub-two-pound iaito with one hand may be taxing after an hour or so, though. Good luck with your explorations, at any rate. Just realize that Japanese swordsmanship is, for a large part, about maintaining the centerline. Attempting to do so with one hand, esp. versus a seasoned opponent who's using both hands, would likely leave you at a marked disadvantage...

[Karl Friday]

Hi guys, a question! :)

In all my readings about japanese swordsmanship and their different schools, I've never heard of a school that specializes in Single Long Sword One-handed Weapon Style.



Niten Ichi Ryu, the only ryuha I know of that focuses heavily on two-sword techniques, also has a large number of one-handed long sword kata.

In point of fact, if you read Miyamoto Musashi's Gorin no sho carefully, you'll find that he never advocates the use of the (more-or-less) standard combination of long sword in one hand and short in the other. He refers in several places to using long swords in both hands, and in all but one or two of these, he advocates this not for direct application, but for training: Practicing with a long sword in each hand, says Musashi, teaches you to be able to fight one-handed, which he believed to be a vital skill.

[Finny]

Thanks for the information Dr. Friday.

With the rarity of these types of techniques, it's interesting to note that Daito Ryu master Takeda Sokaku was supposedly also expert in the use of a single long sword in one hand. Of course he apparently had training in Jikishinkage Ryu and Ono-Ha Itto Ryu - but whether his one-handed techniques were taught in these ryuha or were his own invention, or something else (DR?)...

I believe Mr. Amdur was doing some writing on the subject over at aikidojournal.com

[Swordy]

In point of fact, if you read Miyamoto Musashi's Gorin no sho carefully, you'll find that he never advocates the use of the (more-or-less) standard combination of long sword in one hand and short in the other. He refers in several places to using long swords in both hands, and in all but one or two of these, he advocates this not for direct application, but for training: Practicing with a long sword in each hand, says Musashi, teaches you to be able to fight one-handed, which he believed to be a vital skill.
Wow... Musashi did say alot about one-hand sword style aside from two sword style in Gorin no sho!

Side thought, I read that he was a pretty tall guy, i wonder if this was true. I wonder if his inherent physical strength granted by his exceptionally tall frame gave him quite an advantage for wielding two swords at once. Standard Tokugawa 2shaku 3sun swords must have been like long kodachis to him.

But i remember hearing him wielding something longer and heftier.

[Gregory Mele]

Niten Ichi Ryu, the only ryuha I know of that focuses heavily on two-sword techniques, also has a large number of one-handed long sword kata.

In point of fact, if you read Miyamoto Musashi's Gorin no sho carefully, you'll find that he never advocates the use of the (more-or-less) standard combination of long sword in one hand and short in the other. He refers in several places to using long swords in both hands, and in all but one or two of these, he advocates this not for direct application, but for training: Practicing with a long sword in each hand, says Musashi, teaches you to be able to fight one-handed, which he believed to be a vital skill.

As a point of hoplogical reference, this was also what the fencing masters of 16th century Europe recommended for the "case of swords". It was not generally a good idea for real combat, but rather as a training exercise and "tour de force" - a display of skill. For serious fights, one used the sword and buckler, dagger or two-handed sword.