All threads relating to HNIR

[hyaku]

I am not going to allow any threads relating to the HNIR authenticity online
based on what somebody 'Might' have said to somebody else' etc

HNIR is a Japanese Koryu and it's authenticity and who leads it is decided by Japanese recognized associations who are well satisfied with the necessary certification, documentation and living culture they have been presented with. HNIR lineage never was and never will be heriditary.

The ryu is not "up for grabs" on the internet!

The information and profile I have online is a translation from Imai Soke again in connection with a lecture done by him for Nippon Budokan.

It goes without saying that Japanese even if they spoke English would not behave in this manner.

Regards Colin Watkin 12th Generation Menkyo HNIR

[Ken-Hawaii]

Wonderful idea, Hyaku!! Many thanks!!

[ScottUK]

I blame Eiji Yoshikawa for writing that crappy book and making Musashi-sensei popular... :rolleyes:

[Fred27]

I blame Eiji Yoshikawa for writing that crappy book and making Musashi-sensei popular... :rolleyes:

I blame Toshiro Mifune :rolleyes:

[Kaoru]

Good! This is the best thing to do, IMHO. I'm sick of people claiming this or that about HNIR and then trying to discredit a certain person just because they don't like or agree with what he says. It's very rude.

I wish there'd be a similar rule on KW. I hate the arguing when it does come up!

Anyway, thanks for such a great idea and putting it into action! :)

[Sidharta rezend]

Mr. Colin

I am happy to see that you deleted the absurds regarding Gosho Sensei issuing himself a Menkyo Kaiden and other false allegations written here. The decision to not allow this kind of discussion here will be correct if you follow your own rules and not let people discuss the authenticity of the person who taught Imai Soke and his authority to have his lineage.

The reason why Gosho Sensei established Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu was to preserve Aoki Soke's teachings. It's not to threat other groups, but to assure that future genetration will have access to the original form of the kata.

As for the information displayed in Hyoho.com regarding when Imai Soke started practicing, I'ts your decision, as webmaster, keep that information as it is or to correct it.

Regards,
Sidharta Rezende

[ScottUK]

Mr Rezende,

Please be aware that your entire basis depends upon the opinion of Gosho-s and his students. Can you personally confirm this? Did you practice with both Aoki soke and Imai soke?

You claim to 'preserve the techniques', but then again, so do we. The only difference (to outsiders) is that HNIR (Imai-to-Iwami line) is the seito line. End of.

While we are discussing such matters, can you confirm that Gosho-s received both menkyo and menkyo kaiden from Aoki soke? After receiving information about this issue from Japan, I would be interested in seeing them.

Regards,

Scott

[hyaku]

Mr. Colin

I am happy to see that you deleted the absurds regarding Gosho Sensei issuing himself a Menkyo Kaiden and other false allegations written here. The decision to not allow this kind of discussion here will be correct if you follow your own rules and not let people discuss the authenticity of the person who taught Imai Soke and his authority to have his lineage.

The reason why Gosho Sensei established Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu was to preserve Aoki Soke's teachings. It's not to threat other groups, but to assure that future genetration will have access to the original form of the kata.

As for the information displayed in Hyoho.com regarding when Imai Soke started practicing, I'ts your decision, as webmaster, keep that information as it is or to correct it.

Regards,
Sidharta Rezende

I will respond as my answer relates to Japanese duty, protocol and obligation. Japan has changed for many in modern times However most of us that practice budo culture try to maintain the old values, especially when it come to Koryu.

I said...... Goshu giving a Menkyo Kaiden to Kishikawa. Have you any idea what a real HNIR Menkyo Kaiden looks like? It's only issued by Soke!

To establish a 'Ha' one needs permission of the present Headmaster! First he is a "Shihan", now he has a Ha? What comes next? It would be better to try and maintain contact with a ryu rather than form a breakaway group.

The information on Hyoho.com was provided by Nippon Budokan as an article and lecture given for them by Imai Soke in Japanese. I simply put up part of it in English on the understanding that 'anything' placed on the net was to have the sanction of Sohke.

A ryu is the intellectual copyright of its present Headmaster. How he chooses to interpret it is 'HIS' business. Our position is of "GIRI". To follow our teacher without question. Not decide to "Change teachers" because we dont like the way he does things. Kids move around. Budoka hang on in there. Obligation like ones practice is a lifetimes work.

The main point is the Kiyonaga people 'Left Imai Sokes dojo. That is an unforgiveable act. Were you aware of that. You are trying to make it sound like you left after he passed away!

To quote Sohke, All of are us are quite capable of practicing the ryu as Aoki Soke did. What you have to ask yourself is do you want to? How far back before Aoki Soke can we trace this 'originallity'?

To quote one of our members who has a deep understanding of the ryu, "HNIR is waza and seishin! Waza alone is waza and not HNIR, waza with Musashi's bu no seishin is HNIR"

To leave a ryu, a Sokhe and forego obligation for ones own ends is zero 'seishin'.

Of course Imai Sohke with his humanism and great judge of character was already fully aware of how things and people would turn out. This is why he had the wherewithall and made his final decision about a successor as events took their course when he was alive rather than leave certification in the bottom drawer.

HNIR is NOT heridatory. Like it or not its all up to a Sohke. That's why he is Sohke!

Imai Soke was without question "Your Soke". Kishikawa never questioned that for one minute on "Holiday practice trips to Japan". A home page that used to show pictures with Imai Sohke.

Then you show total disrespect and question his position on the hearsay of an old student after you up and leave Sohke? Utterly disgusting.

[hyaku]

Mr Rezende,

Please be aware that your entire basis depends upon the opinion of Gosho-s and his students. Can you personally confirm this? Did you practice with both Aoki soke and Imai soke?

You claim to 'preserve the techniques', but then again, so do we. The only difference (to outsiders) is that HNIR (Imai-to-Iwami line) is the seito line. End of.

While we are discussing such matters, can you confirm that Gosho-s received both menkyo and menkyo kaiden from Aoki soke? After receiving information about this issue from Japan, I would be interested in seeing them.

Regards,

Scott

Maybe he did have one? Aoki Sohke gave out "a lot a paper". This of course has not bearing whatsoever on actual practice and what some people sadly fail to understand is.. It's all in the practice.... not the paper. People have made claims in Tokyo, Okayami, Kumamoto and Taiwan to receiving some kind of certification.

Aoki Sensei sadly lost a teaching job in Kumamoto as a result of teaching a student at high school after WW2. But does this make that particular student an expert and can he or will he be stupid enough to form his own Ha?

[Swordy]

Greetings Mr. Hyakutake,

Would it be possible for you to explain to us further the contents of the scroll? One of the two artifacts that is passed down from Soke to Soke in HNIR?

Respectfully,

[Chidokan]

Actually that would be interesting.... I have seen a couple for MJER (menkyo kaiden) and they just show the waza names with a list of names in the menkyo's history chain. I remember seeing Otake sensei and a few other ryu's headmasters on a tv show showing their scrolls. Some were really nicely done, an art object almost. What are the HNIR ones like, factual only or 'embroidered' with paintings etc?

[ScottUK]

Iwami-soke's is text-only, with previous soke listed along with technique names (and descriptions, if I remember correctly).

[carl mcclafferty]

Colin:

I have a direct lineage with Aoki Sensei through Sekiguchi Ryu. Yamada Sensei says that the only person he heard of getting a Menkyo Kaiden in HNIR was Yonehara Sensei. The only people he gave Menkyo Kaiden in Sekiguchi Ryu to was Kamegai Sensei and Yonehara Sensei. Kamegai Sensei gave Yamada Sensei his Menkyo Kaiden. I got my Menkyo Kaiden from Yamada Sensei after my 55th Birthday (Age Requirements).

Have not heard of Aoki Sensei handing out a lot of paper. But you might check with Yonehara Sensei.

Carl McClafferty

[hyaku]

Greetings Mr. Hyakutake,

Would it be possible for you to explain to us further the contents of the scroll? One of the two artifacts that is passed down from Soke to Soke in HNIR?

Respectfully,



Hello there Well in a word no. It"s on a need to know basis. As the Brazilian people seems to think they are so knowledgeable on this subject. Who received what and when and what is authentic even how its written maybe they could tell you?

Regards

[hyaku]

Colin:

I have a direct lineage with Aoki Sensei through Sekiguchi Ryu. Yamada Sensei says that the only person he heard of getting a Menkyo Kaiden in HNIR was Yonehara Sensei. The only people he gave Menkyo Kaiden in Sekiguchi Ryu to was Kamegai Sensei and Yonehara Sensei. Kamegai Sensei gave Yamada Sensei his Menkyo Kaiden. I got my Menkyo Kaiden from Yamada Sensei after my 55th Birthday (Age Requirements).

Have not heard of Aoki Sensei handing out a lot of paper. But you might check with Yonehara Sensei.

Carl McClafferty

Helo Carl I was just refering to other claims made by some other people throughout Japan. I have seen one old magazine article where one person actually claimed to be in posession of the real Jisso Enman no Bokuto.

I was told that Sekiguchi Ryu and HNIR went their own separate ways after Aoki Soke.

Best Regards

[Swordy]

Greetings!

Ahh I see, sorry, it is not my intention to allow 'some' people to learn too much from this post. :p haha :)


Actually that would be interesting.... I have seen a couple for MJER (menkyo kaiden) and they just show the waza names with a list of names in the menkyo's history chain. I remember seeing Otake sensei and a few other ryu's headmasters on a tv show showing their scrolls. Some were really nicely done, an art object almost. What are the HNIR ones like, factual only or 'embroidered' with paintings etc?
Menkyo holders have copies of this? Or only the Soke? Is this type of documentation common in many schools?


Iwami-soke's is text-only, with previous soke listed along with technique names (and descriptions, if I remember correctly).
In HNIR, is this scroll is more or less like a documentation of the history as well as the techniques of the ryu?

What about the techniques and descriptions, are they highly specific? or are they like the Book of the 5 rings that they leave room for interpretation/reflection?

I hope i'm not prying too much if i ask these questions. I'm suddenly curious about this... Please bear with me. :rolleyes:

Best Regards,

[ScottUK]

Sorry Chris, my Japanese is not good enough to be able to answer that one.

However, please remember that there should be no interpretation between the headmasters. HNIR is passed down without adaptation etc. I doubt that the makimono are specific - HNIR is not taught by instruction book - we learn from the sohke, teacher to student... not dot-to-dot. :)

[hyaku]

Sorry Swordy I was just being sarcastic.....

There are few ryu that hand down any kind of makimono with specific details.
Many years ago and for the protection of a ryu nothing specific was put on paper. Its as Scott says we learn from many years of personal tuition. As aready said the HNIR without its philosopical aspect is meaningless.

[carl mcclafferty]

Hyaku:

SGR and HNIR did go their own way, Kamegai Sensei only taught SGR. I was told Yonehara Sensei got Menkyo Kaiden in HNIR, don't know if he teaches it or not.

Carl McClafferty

[hyaku]

Fact of the matter is Kishikawa was told by Imai Sohke to go with Iwami Sohke Iwami Soke booked him a hotel in Fukuoka but they never turned up!

Under the circumstances if he had of stayed with the mainline it would have fallen upon me to help teach and look after Kishikawa! He would have to have really swallowed his pride after trying to stir up so much trouble before.

Thank god they went elsewhere. What they do looks like an amalgamation of Kendo Kata and HNIR and has no resemblance to Koryu any way. One of the first and foremost rules is leave the other stuff outside the dojo and you 'might' be lucky to have done something before that resembles the system you are studying.

Iwami Sohke asked me some time ago to state on his behalf on the net that Kishikawa did not and will 'never' have any connection with us. But it hardly seemed worth it at the time as they never really were connected in the first place!

Regards to all and dont pass that popcorn! It gets in this old dogs teeth.

[Fred27]

Iwami Sohke asked me some time ago to state on his behalf on the net that Kishikawa did not and will 'never' have any connection with us. But it hardly seemed worth it at the time as they never really were connected in the first place!

Well..you and the current soke could go to South America to Kishikawas dojo and tell the truth "on location" to his students...Though knowing Kishikawas behaviour he would prolly just take photographs of you and Soke and proclaim on the web that you came to apologise and repent or something. :rolleyes:

[Steve Delaney]

Hyaku:

SGR and HNIR did go their own way, Kamegai Sensei only taught SGR. I was told Yonehara Sensei got Menkyo Kaiden in HNIR, don't know if he teaches it or not.

Carl McClafferty

Yonehara Kameo sensei does teach HNIR with SGR. Yonehara Sensei has even demonstrated HNIR at Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai embu before.