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dirk.bruere
19th May 2007, 23:45
Watch the video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HBXXA5xhcQ0

Shindai
20th May 2007, 14:13
Had an aikijuttsu teacher hit me with a one incher and send me flying a few years ago, didn't hurt a bit, wa most odd :)

Interesting video, to be honest I dunno what to make of it. I'm a reiki practitioner so I know a little about energy fields and transfering energy into a person, yknow, but I've never seen ki used like that before. Time to do some reading up on this guy, I think.

dirk.bruere
20th May 2007, 14:39
Had an aikijuttsu teacher hit me with a one incher and send me flying a few years ago, didn't hurt a bit, wa most odd :)

Interesting video, to be honest I dunno what to make of it. I'm a reiki practitioner so I know a little about energy fields and transfering energy into a person, yknow, but I've never seen ki used like that before. Time to do some reading up on this guy, I think.

I've seen something similar in a tai Chi class, but no so spectacular. Merely an 'unbalancing' from behind. I had it done to me but felt nothing.
Look up Derren Brown on youtube - there's plenty of material. Some of his stuff is just outright trickery and conjuring. The rest is really impressive mindwork, and it's quite instructive to see how he does it and how easy it is.
Here's a simple but very effective example - listen carefully to the wording as he speaks:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w

Here is something more subtle where he uses a rapid form of hypnotic induction called the pattern interrupt using the false handshake.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwthqRJ1Khg&mode=related&search=


Dirk

Samurai Jack
21st May 2007, 17:04
The Black Hole Discussions of the power err...proof...err...the existence of Chi/Ki.

A very interesting subject, my I say. Chi of course is a core tenet ofTaiji. Chinese characters translated and universally interpreted generally as a pot water on a fire alluding to the production of steam. Or it simply means breathing for some. From there it is anybody's guess and anybody's use. It is the latter I stress heavily. Chi starts as a simple observation of a natural principle or occurrence used as a representation that is communicated. This observation then morphs from a crude scientific observation way beyond the practical and reasonable. Chi now is associated to being a super human power that shoots from people's finger tips, sending people into yellow bamboo. It also becomes associated with all sorts of other things like an invisible force that comes down from the cosmos fills your body to get you in touch with Chakra’s that your Chiropractor can't seem to adjust.
Chi has also become associated with healing cancer, and the list goes on.

Basically, it is best to understand Chi as it was intended from the Chinese characters it was written in, and then throw in the applied physics and finally throw out the magical fairy dust.

Bruce Lee a man of science and education, and a great martial artist use to do his "3 in 1" power punch (and he published how to do it), he was very good at demonstrating the principle used which can be explained by science.

Tim Cartmell, studied with some of the best Chinese taiji and other style experts. He doesn't buy the mystical power of chi.

It is not that chi doesn't exist, it does, the core of the issue is wading through all the "added value" non-sense of what it really isn't.

Samurai Jack
21st May 2007, 17:44
I wrote
...(and [Bruce Lee] published how to do it), this is incorrect, James W. Demile authored the book, "Bruce Lee's 1 and 3 Inch Power Punch." It is published by Unique Publications ISBN-10: 0865681120
ISBN-13: 978-0865681125

I wrote
...use to do his "3 in 1" power punch It should be 3 and 1, not 3 in 1. My memory failed me. FWIW and to avoid confusion, I put quotes around the 3 in 1 to indicate that Bruce Lee was not the originator of such a skill. He gave fa jing ( explosive power ) or one inch punch a western label.

dirk.bruere
21st May 2007, 22:25
Tim Cartmell, studied with some of the best Chinese taiji and other style experts. He doesn't buy the mystical power of chi.

It is not that chi doesn't exist, it does, the core of the issue is wading through all the "added value" non-sense of what it really isn't.

From a practical POV I have 'felt' the power of Chi, and used it.
However, my interpretation of it is completely different and like you I'm sceptical about all the theories surrounding it. My take on it is that what we experience as Chi is actually the conscious mind merging with the subconscious in such a way that we perceive more of the world about us and can act seemingly without thought. Furthermore, that (like Derren Brown) we can use those enhanced perceptions and intuitions to directly affect the minds of other people in ways that are very subtle and powerful.

Anyway - that's my theory!

Dirk

Samurai Jack
22nd May 2007, 16:54
Dirk, I see what you are saying. You said that you felt chi that is being on the receiving end and your description is yours that should not be argued. It belongs to you. I practice(d) various Chinese martial arts for over 20 years, I have felt and practiced what this thing called chi and my description of my experience is different from yours, and from others. Here lies the issue, I think trying to describe individual experiences without common language is what leads the issue of does it or doesn't exist. As I said before, I think it exists, but it is being credited far too often to as other skills or phenomena. Then there is the nature of the Chinese to be freeform, and not standardize things like other martial arts, like karate. Shotokan kata, for example, is universal in sequence no matter who teaches it, and this reflects through out the art. This is not so for Taiji. This is why the Chinese Government standardized Official forms starting back in the 1970’s. I think for chi it is the same thing and because of that there is a conflict to what it is and if it exists for some.

FWIW, from my research Sun Lu Tang, the founder of Sun Taiji infused and popularized the mystic, cosmic Tao's view of chi into Taiji. The originating Taiji family Chen and the first split off style of Yang where (and should be) void of a cosmic view of Chi. I think one person changed the way chi exists, and what it is. Personally, I think chi is the mechanics of physics applied to the human body. I don’t believe ancient Taiji masters/experts where any different or capable then any of us today, in understand phenomenon, physics, etc. If fact, I think with our knowledge of the nature world through science we are much more advanced in our knowledge of those mechanics. For some chi practitioners, physics are sterile, dry, colorless, and uneventful facts that are not very appealing, they don’t catch peoples’ attention.

Samurai Jack
22nd May 2007, 20:12
Dirk, I think your experience as you told it, and expanded on it as you did defining chi as a relationship between the conscious and the sub-conscious minds works and its results are valid. But that relationship you noted may not be what chi was originally deemed to be. I think that relationship between the minds is very powerful, and to those who don't understand relationship will discredit it quickly. I think both the relationship of the mind and chi are valid. If we call that relationship between the conscious and sub-conscious minds and the result you experienced chi, I think then it just adds to the debate of the validity of chi. Chi that is being a catch-all term for things that amaze us that we don't understand how it happened, thus, struggling at our best with what is known to us to communicate it.


Early in my studies I had an Acupuncturist who defined chi for me, he would clap his hands really hard together like he was applauding before he worked on me to help relieve an acute muscle condition I had. I asked him why he clapped his hands and he said it was to get the chi flowing. This confused me; being young I thought he was going to send me flying off the table. My experience with chi was in a martial arts sense. I was told chi is to flow through the body, this was demonstrated by my teacher pushing my poorly aligned body, i.e. my posture lending to me being off balance at the start of the push. When being off balance you can't fight easily gravity or the momentum of fall back very easily. Or when I would push his shoulder he would not resist the push like in Judo and use my energy and force to his advantage, again my momentum and being off balance was my own worse enemy type of thing. To be successful at such as skill, you have to practice and have it come natural allowing the sub-conscious mind to work and not be obstructed by the conscious mind. You also have to relax. As we know muscle tension inhibits movement. But the Acupuncturist explained that by clapping his hands chi as blood flow to his hands creates heat, as well as the other things that happen when the body experiences such a localized and concentrated impact. The resulting properties of the clapping as previous described have beneficial properties to his procedure. For example cold hands don't feel good. Heat as a result of the blood rushing to the palms is proven to have positive effects on the muscles, as heat. He also mentioned that when he uses his needles heat is conducted through the needle from is hands which also contributes to his procedure. He also went into the possibility of electrical properties which where years later confirm that the human body use electrical properties. To him that was chi. But to me, chi was being relaxed, and using the body to get behind the body and generate a push or other types of a strike. FWIW, Jack Dempsey the great boxer wrote a book on boxing echos the same principles behind a Chinese art or Japanese karate strike. You would think Dempsey was a student of Asian martial arts.

Lastly, years later I met a teacher from Hong Kong, after sometime of study under that teacher, I had a scratchy throat related cough. Just when I was about to cough, I was told that was chi. My pre-cough moment was translated as chi force, just as the Chinese characters indicate; an unseen force termed as chi. Where as a seen force is something like when you see a bat strike and damage say a car window, or hood, or an axe split wood, or the steam from a boiling kettle of water on the fire to lift its lid.

It is not my intention to argue, or refute anyone. It is to share my thoughts and opinions that chi does exists and what it should be credited for.



Sincerely,

ushiro Academy
22nd May 2007, 22:39
hello,
This is really good timing to talk about Ki.
Please see several below my thread " Encounter with Mr.kenji Ushiro Sensei;Can a person over 50 be really that strong"
I believe 'Ki/Chi " because I was attacked by Ushiro Seisei's Ki.
but That was quite diffrent from Deren Brown' there is no shock by Ki/Chi but just my gravity went up and my body was freezed.
There were other Ki master ,famous are Aikido Ueshiba o sensei or Shiota Sensei.They were real mater but there are a lot fake.
Please see Ushiro sensei's video:
http://budo.blog81.fc2.com/blog-entry-44.html
or
http://www.aikinews.com/page.php?id=7
(first and second top video clips )

Ushiro sensei and other ki master said that Ki/Chi was produced by the mind of harmony and unity .

If you are a person who not bilieve existence of Ki/Chi or one who want to
see real one , Pleaase join the ushiro sensei's semionar in LA( AUG 24-26).
you can believe Ki/Chi. Trust me.
Details : www.ushirojukuusa.com

dirk.bruere
23rd May 2007, 00:09
First, let's dispel the myths that surround quite a few "Chi demonstrations", like "unbendable arm" or "unliftable person" - these can be explained quite accurately with modern physics and physiology. So too can feats of amazing strength, especially under the influence of drugs. I wrote some of this down when I was teaching:
http://www.neopax.com/Artemis/shorinji/essays/kiai/kiai.htm

The relevant bit is:
"Normally people cannot consciously use their entire bodily strength or power, especially if they are untrained. It has been estimated that the unused portion could effectively double the strength of some people. However, there is a very good reason why such strength is not normally available. Consider the lifting of a heavy weight, one far heavier than has been encountered before. So, you start to increase your effort towards your maximum. What is that maximum? Generally most people would at some point tell you that they could exert no more force and give up. What they mean is that (usually unconsciously) they have reached the point at which the weakest part of their body, the weakest link in the chain, is going to fail. Fortunately for most, that weakest link is muscle strength more often than not, but it need not be. I recall trying to lift one of the weights my brother trained with a few years back. I could feel the pressure build in the knees and in the back as I went beyond 150kg and I decided to stop well within the capability of my muscles. I was quite conscious of the fact that I had never lifted anything so heavy and that the weakest link might very well turn out to be my vertebrae. In a nutshell, it is DANGEROUS to exert ones full strength in a way that one has not built up to through training, and the mind knows it and provides suitable inhibitions geared to that weakest link. There are, however, two common ways of circumventing the body's good sense. The most obvious one is panic, or being 'hyped up'. The urban myth variety that everyone has heard of is the story of a mother who sees the jack holding up a car that has her son underneath it fail. So she rushes out and lifts the car off of him. Now, that may be just possible (I don't really know). What I do know is that she would not be in very good health afterwards. The other method is to use some types of drug. The most notorious one is PCP, which is not common in Britain but not unknown in the USA. It started life as an anaesthetic for animals. Its effects on people include psychosis and an inability to feel pain. There are two stories I recall being told by US police making arrests. One concerned a man who was handcuffed actually snapping the cuffs (and breaking his wrist in the process); the other was about a fourteen year old girl on the drug who picked up a police officer and threw him through a plate glass window."

I don't think PCP "releases the Chi" but it certainly reduces any inhibitions put in place by both the conscious and subconscious mind. And well trained martial artists can do that "on demand".

Dirk

Scott
24th May 2007, 03:36
“Chi of course is a core tenet of Taiji. Chinese characters translated and universally interpreted generally as a pot water on a fire alluding to the production of steam. Or it simply means breathing for some.”

Let’s keep in mind that the concept of Fire Chi unifying with Water Chi is also a practice Taoists used to bring themselves into accommodation with Tao. When Fire Chi is harmoniously unified with Water Chi principles of Tao (Te) are spontaneously expressed/manifested within and by the individual. That is, they become accommodated to the principles of Tao and “seemingly” supra-normal consequences result. From a material perspective we could approach this as the unification/harmonizing of body and mind, reason and emotion, tension and relaxation. When these principles are effectively harmonized within an individual the result is a consequence that appears greater than the sum of its parts. This consequence was considered ineffable and symbolized using steam as a metaphor because the science behind the consequence was not understood.

I have not yet had the opportunity to view the vids due to my slow connection at home, however let me comment on what has been indicated here previously about the vids.

1) The concept of hypnotic techniques that result in the appearance of Chi projection:

If we consider the lack of scientific understanding of human psychology in the past it is easy to imagine how the results of the usage of the principles of hypnosis could be attributed to Chi. I perform a few movements (magic signs) say a few words, (magic spells) combine some breathing techniques to build and reinforce my inherent Chi store and the result is, I appear to manifest an effect on a subject using little to no force depending upon their susceptibility to suggestion. Persons with lesser susceptibility would be considered to have stronger Chi providing them with the ability to resist or counter my Chi projection.

I am reminded of the South Park episode where Cartman has a psychic battle with other psuedo-psychics, LOL!! NaNaNaNaNaaaa!!! NaNaNaNaNaaaa!!! NaNaNaNaNaaaa!!!

2) The harmonizing of mind and body that result in greater-than-normal physical capabilities:

Again, in the past there was little scientific understanding of bio-mechanics while there was clearly an understanding that if I stand in X position and move my body in Y manner I get Z result.

Upon reflection a MA would not necessarily understand how this occurs from a bio-mechanical perspective. While I may understand that pushing off the ground with my rear foot results in a greater force produced by my strike, I may consider that it is the ground from which this force is generated and not the unified movement of my body pushing off the ground with my rear foot. I would feel my body moving in a specific manner to produce this “greater” force and conceive of Chi moving through my body. Coming from this unique perspective I might formulate the concepts of Rooting and the ability to consciously direct Chi through my root (foot) up through my body and out my palm or fist. The effective performance of this action requires my mind/Yin/Water to be relaxed/Yin Chi/Water Chi while my body/Yang/Fire uses forceful movements/Yang Chi/Fire Chi to manifest the greater force (Steam/Chi/Ineffable effect) at impact. The consequence would be considered ineffable because I have no clear understanding of how this actually occurs from a scientific bio-mechanical perspective. The same concepts we understand today as bio-mechanics were merely communicated according to the cultural and scientific understanding available at the time of creation. To the old MA it is the harmonizing of Yang Chi with Yin Chi to produce greater than normal force. To us it is the efficient use of bio-mechanics. The same actions are defined according the the prevailing social and scientific perspective of the time.

Samurai Jack
24th May 2007, 19:45
The American Medical Association complete medical encyclopedia, copyright 2003 ISBN 0-8129-9100 on page 1189 has an entry for Tai chi. The entry is heavily Taoist influenced, far too thick for my taste. It does glimmer at one point steering from its metaphysical Chinese-ques prose. It states Chi as internal energy. My first thought of internal energy meant passing gas.
Thought this may be in interest to some. As far as the American Medical Association (AMA) encyclopedia is concern chi exists. Yet the AMA states the existance of Chi as being very abstract and vague. Basically, the AMA isn’t relying medical usage and terminology, but rather using the result of the translated romantic Taoist and Chinese prose. In my opinion, the AMA's workding only adds furthering the obsurity of chi's existance, hindering a comprehensible and sensible discription of chi. For example, defining ying and yang as a symbol for polarity, contrasts, opposites.

The AMA encyclopedia goes on to say that Tai Chi helps arthritis and improves hypertension and heart disease, and other things. It fails to state these benefits also are achieved by other any low-intensity, low impact exercise, i.e. recreational ballroom dancing, walking, general calisthenics.

kiai
24th May 2007, 21:13
The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

(chapter 40, tao te ching)

dirk.bruere
25th May 2007, 01:34
The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

(chapter 40, tao te ching)

Move like water
Respond like an echo
Rest like a mirror

Dirk

Scott
25th May 2007, 03:46
Move like water
Respond like an echo
Rest like a mirror

Dirk

Float like a butterfly,
sting like a bee!