ninpo you tube.

[bu-kusa]

http://www.ninja-video.com/

Just found this, interesting idea!

[Kesshi]

I'm sure you never asked Hatsumi Soke, Sveneric or anyone else if it was ok to post videos of them. How about asking them (us) first for permission?

You certainly never got my permission for my videos!
Please remove them from your site!
I'm considering a law suit :-/

[bu-kusa]

Im not sure if that comment was for me, but that web site hasnt anything to do with me. I belive it may of been put up by the same Bujinkan member who did the wiki article.

[BMinter]

Shame with all the crap / phonies out there on the internet that finally a legitimate link is discovered and then immediately shut down. What do you want, dude - royalties??? Get over it...

[Vic20]

Kesshi didn't appear to be asking for royalties. Looks to me like he wanted a basic show of respect in the form of a request for permission first. Maybe I am just misreading his post?

[Hayseed]

Brian,
I understand where you're coming from, however, keep in mind that many people like Mr. Hjelm have spent alot of thier time and definitely alot of thier $$, and in turn, offer that same knowledge at a relative "discount" from what they had to pay to recieve it initially.

That knowledge and experience they offer through the form of supplemental training videos however, have a price tag.(IMO a bargain considering the info.) I also noticed that someone posted an entire release of Kaigousuru on youtube. Imagine being the person that organized, recorded, and whose responsibility it is now to market it, stumbling across the fruit of their labors being pirated in it's entirety on the internet! I would be pissed!

So, yes. I would, if I were in that situation, at least appreciate someone asking my permission.

[Kesshi]

Hello!

My post was not directed to you bu-kusa. I merely wanted everyone to think about the person on the video, did he ask to be put up openly like this and get all the stupid comments some people like to make.
This is just to show simple respect for other people (even those you don't know), many people forget that!

I don't make videos to amuse people who don't appriceate the value of it. I mean the videos are for those who actually train with a certified instructor, not for those who are to lazy to go to the dojo regularly.

BMinter, I don't understand what you getting at? If my stuff is crap and I want royalties? Certainly not, I just want to be shown respect, and in this case it was very disrespectful to upload the videos of me without asking first, that's all.

Hayseed, thanks for the heads up, I think? You could have sen't me a PM or e-mail instead of posting it in an open forum! Anyway I will know exactly who he is soon, it's not that difficult :-)

[niten ninja]

I don't make videos to amuse people who don't appriceate the value of it. I mean the videos are for those who actually train with a certified instructor, not for those who are to lazy to go to the dojo regularly.

Well, it is a Bujinkan site, not simply normal You Tube, so I don't think people's amusement is really it's aim. I really think people are over reacting here, a law suit over "not being given respect" is just being silly.

[Hayseed]

I don't personally believe that a lawsuit is the way to go either, however the threat of one could serve very well to illustrate how important it is to obtain permission from someone who makes part of their living off of selling them, to present them for free. After all, why buy something that you can download for free on youtube. It's kind of like the Napster v. Metallica thing, except that I think the Metallica boys handled that poorly, and I think it's a little bit different considering how much those guys bring in a year compared to a Bujinkan Shidoshi putting out videos.

Mr. Hjelm,
Sorry about that, I didn't realize Kaigousuru was one of yours as well. In the future if I notice things like that again it will definitely be sent PM.

Gambatte...

[studious_ninja]

It's kind of like the Napster v. Metallica thing, except that I think the Metallica boys handled that poorly, and I think it's a little bit different considering how much those guys bring in a year compared to a Bujinkan Shidoshi putting out videos.


It's about the principle. Regardless of how much money people have, you should not take the material they worked to make which they sell to make their living and allow others to have it for free. I hate the 'Metallica is rich so they can afford to be stolen from argument'.

[Jason Chambers]

Here's some Ninpo with "sound effects". C'mon... We've all made a "swoosh" or two when we are training. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUvGzlDhV74

[Hayseed]

Syd,
In case my post was unclear, I'm personally not a litigeous person, however, as I stated in my post, I'm against piracy(unless their ninja pirates :p ) People reacted to Metallica the way they did because the Metallica boys make more money than most people can imagine ever having(to most people, it sounds like they're crying "Waa! My diamond shoes are too tight!"). Those Shidoshi that put out videos are no where near to that income bracket(multi-millionaire), and have nowhere near the same size selling market, so the percentage of loss to gain for them will be much higher. This is the reason for me including that distinction. The difference, to me, is like stealing from homeless people in profit to loss percentage comparison.

And yes, I would look down much more on someone stealing from the poor, than someone stealing from the rich.(Just how I feel)

i.e. Prince John Robin Hood

To be clearer, while I disagree with the "It's ok to steal from Metallica 'cause they're rich" statements. I don't feel too bad for them, but I do get upset about someone stealing from Shidoshi. Not because we're all in the same club, but because if it becomes too costly for them to make and market videos because of losses due to piracy, they may just decide to stop making them. I could care less if Metallica comes out with another album. :D

[BMinter]

To clarify, I certianly am not implying in any way shape or form that Mr. Hjelms material was "Crap". Quite the opposite, in fact - that this material is refreshing and it's too bad to have so much amusement over the you tube and have folks oppose immediately when the authentic stuff is released.

I certainly can sympathize with folks not wanting their own material released, just a shame in light of the above.

-Brian

[Kesshi]

You know that the school techniques used to be secret and kept within the family. Some koryu still do keppan, and swear not to teach, show, demonstrate or even talk about their techniques to people outside the dojo. I also think that in Bujinkan there is an unwritten law (it was written in the old Shidoshi-kai rules I think?) that you must be a Shidoshi to have the right to teach Bujinkan, meaning that if you're not Shidoshi you are not allowed to teach.

Now people share everything they know on Youtube, even green belts! Do their instructors approve of that, or don't they know?

[bvelto]

Kesshi please PM me. I tried to send a PM and an email to you but both functions are disabled... Thanks!

[niten ninja]

You know that the school techniques used to be secret and kept within the family. Some koryu still do keppan, and swear not to teach, show, demonstrate or even talk about their techniques to people outside the dojo.

And? We don't live in Feudal Japan, and Bujinkan isn't a koryu, it's a global MA federation/association.

[QUOTE]Now people share everything they know on Youtube, even green belts! Do their instructors approve of that, or don't they know?

It's none of their business.

[ElfTengu]

You know that the school techniques used to be secret and kept within the family. Some koryu still do keppan, and swear not to teach, show, demonstrate or even talk about their techniques to people outside the dojo. I also think that in Bujinkan there is an unwritten law (it was written in the old Shidoshi-kai rules I think?) that you must be a Shidoshi to have the right to teach Bujinkan, meaning that if you're not Shidoshi you are not allowed to teach.

Now people share everything they know on Youtube, even green belts! Do their instructors approve of that, or don't they know?

Hi Mats,

I was just wondering, how did your stuff make it onto youtube in the first place, and is it the ninpo video guys you are most upset with or the person who originally put it on youtube.

One thing to think about is that the videoclips of Soke on Winjutsu are probably not the best examples to show the world, they are great for people who already train but aren't 'public-friendly'.

Nobody should post clips from copyrighted material but it's great that so many peoples' personal videoclips of Soke can be seen and admired online.

[ElfTengu]

Here's some Ninpo with "sound effects". C'mon... We've all made a "swoosh" or two when we are training. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUvGzlDhV74

I quite enjoyed that, it was like 'Johnny Depp's Captain Jack Sparrow Teaches Ninjutsu!'

[Rens ter Weijde]

Hello there,

I was really surprised to read on this site about www.bujinkan-video.com, and especially about Mats' post about sueing the people who used his material. The site is made by a good friend of mine and I can assure you he isn't making any money with it, that's not what it's intended for.

The goal of the site was to share Bujinkan material for all who is really interested, with the intention to enjoy each others material and learn from each other. Everyone is free to post stuff as they like and we hope to see a lot of nice movies in the near future! (Everyone, feel free to post something!)

Mats, let me speak directly to you since you'll be reading this anyway (we've met on the Buyukai 2006 in Germany btw), the site is not in any way intended to insult or damage you, and there is no money (only a lot of work!) involved in this website. If you don't want your videos on the site we'll remove them (we thought it would be fine since they're on youtube etc.). You can reach me on buyu.rens@gmail.com.

Matane!

Rens ter Weijde
Amsterdam

[Rens ter Weijde]

Quote:
Now people share everything they know on Youtube, even green belts! Do their instructors approve of that, or don't they know?

Again, we're not living in Japan in Sengoku Jidai period. Times have changed, we don't have to protect our families with our secret techniques, internet has arrived and if people want to know about things, they will be able to find out about it. It seems to me that a true follower of budo will adept to changing circumstances, accept them and will make the most of it.

Besides, if you're having too much trouble with things being public and all, you've probably experienced that knowledge doesn't come from watching videos. I may give you hints, inspire you etc. but you'll have to do a lot of training to understand what's happening on the tapes...

Shinpai shinaide, it's not such a big deal!

Rens ter Weijde

[Rens ter Weijde]

Not Rens Ter Wijde writing--->Shinobi Iri is writing using the account

Hi folks, I was reading this forum for a while but could not reply yet to some of the comments because I am still awaiting approval for membership on E-budo.

I am using my friends account to reply to some of the comments. I want to start by saying that I am one of the admins of the new Ninjutsu video sharing community.

First thing’s first.

Mr. HsjelmBecause your work has being published without your permission I truly am sorry and I apologise for the inconvenience. It is your work and it is up to you and only you to decide what to do with it. I totally agree with that. Please PM me the details of the clips you want removed and I will make sure it will be removed. But before you do, give this ninpo video sharing community a chance and let me try to give you some arguments why you should not feel disrespected that somebody has published a piece of your work. I might even convince you to support it.

I will start by saying that I agree 50% with Mr.Hjelm and Hayseed’s view on the video sharing matter.

The first half I DO agree with, is the video piracy topic. In no way is it allowed to share videos without the permission of the persons in the clip or without having the right to publish it. In some cases this can seriously cause loss of income and other inconveniences. But there are some limitations on how to control that. The thing is, I have NO proof if the person sharing a clip is indeed NOT the person who has the permission/rights. According to the Terms of Use, I have to assume that if a person uploads a video, he does has the right to do it. Because of that, the procedure works the other way around. If somebody sees that his own work is being shared without permission you can follow the steps described in the Terms of Use and that clip will be removed immediately. No questions asked!

The second part I respectfully do not agree with.

I do not agree with the fact that showing a 2 mininute (average clip) out of a 60-90 minutes DVD that is for sale is in any way harmful to the sales. In fact I think it is an honour that people like to show clips and videos of a particular instructor. This greatly enhances his recognition in the Ninjutsu/Martial Art community which actually results in higher sales of the original full DVD’s. Why do you think “the industry” releases short trailers of the movies soon to come in the cinema? Give the people a taste and they will want more. Nobody watches clips of 2/3 minutes and expect to understand the technique let alone perform it. For that, people buy complete books/DVD’s and train in the dojo or invite an instructor to visit the dojo and teach the techniques on those DVD’s/Books. People who think they will learn all there is to learn from a 2/3 minute clip, will never buy a DVD or a book or even step one foot into a real dojo anyway. They will go and read books of- and train- with Ashida Kim :D LOL.

By the way: I will put a section soon where people can buy and sell ninjutsu related items. Instructors selling their DVD’s can upload a little preview/trailer and link directly to it. Hopefully this will fight against copyright infringements and will be an incentive for people to share a part of their private/training videos. For more information please PM me


Arigato Gozaimashita,
Shinobi


Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield!!!
---------------------------------------
http://www.Bujinkan-video.com

[Rens ter Weijde]

Not Rens Ter Wijde writing--->Shinobi Iri is writing using the account

I would like to share with you why this site was launched. This Ninjutsu website was born out of passion for this Art and was not meant to be harmful to anybody. This site is about sharing this passion and sharing your own trainings in the dojo with the rest. Do you guys remember how it was when you first stared this journey? Did you not want to gather as much as possible information and share with others? And was it not exciting to find people who shared the same passion? Because just like me I am sure most of you also met a lot of people ridiculing this Art because they did not know better or had a misconception about the art? Only we know why we do what we do, and some people will never understand. That is why we should stick together and share as much as possible between ourselfs.

At this point a lot of information is spread all over the internet so I thought it would be a good idea to put them in one central place to make it easier for all of us. It would be great to see people putting their own videos from the dojo on the site or share something interesting with the rest of us. This site is very new so a lot of things still need to be done. I was thinking of also adding a section where people can add information to a database...you know, like write articles or review something, history and backrounds, clear up misunderstandings, stuff like that. Like a mini wikipedia for ninjutsu.Any help/suggestions on how to improve it are welcome.

People who support this idea, please let me know so i dont feel like i am doing it for nothing.

:cool: Cheers and may the force be with you!! :cool:

Shinobi


Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield!!!
---------------------------------------
http://www.Bujinkan-video.com

[Hayseed]

When I posted in length earlier about piracy, I was mainly talking about the entire Kaigousuru vid on youtube. Of course I don't think a 60 second clip will hurt sales, I wouldn't currently own Juppo Sessho & Advanced Juppo Sessho with Shihan Arnaud if it weren't for the clips on youtube of it.

However, posting the entire video would be a crappy thing to do to the guy that made it.

[Rens ter Weijde]

Not Rens Ter Wijde writing--->Shinobi Iri is writing using the account

Yes i agree with that. A complete video is not acceptable. How about the Juppo Sessho & Advanced Juppo Sessho with Shihan Arnaud? Is it good? It does sound interesting.

Shinobi,

Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield!!!
---------------------------------------
http://www.Bujinkan-video.com

[Hayseed]

It's excellent if a bit over my head(mukyu). I mostly got it so that when I'm showing someone what Bujinkan is, I have something to show them that looks a little more impressive than kihon videos. That and IMO Shihan Arnaud is more charismatic than some of the other video peeps.

Gambatte...

[Kesshi]

I was really surprised to read on this site about www.bujinkan-video.com, and especially about Mats' post about sueing the people who used his material.

I said I was thinking about it! I would appriceate if you removed the SFR video, you can keep the nawanage on.
If my videos are on Youtube you can link to them, don't download them and upload them somewhere else. If you want me to do it just ask. I removed many of them from youtube for a reason.

If you want to contact me do it through my website contact form, I don't read here to often, www.kesshi.com

[ElfTengu]

Steady on there (whoever you are),

I don't think any of us here are in any doubt as to who Mats is and that he is the owner or subject matter of certain videoclips and should have some say as to who can show them on their own website.

At least he is not anonymously using someone else's E-Budo account and healways gives his true name which is a rule here.

Anyone purporting to own or adminstrate a website displaying the Bujinkan badge (or from any of the X-kans) should show a LOT more respect to their seniors in this organisation.

Regardless of the intentions of your website I don't think anyone here is going to be impressed with your behaviour, especially a thinly veiled F-word.

Rather than asking for confirmation of Mats' identity I would like to know who you are and who you train with and if your don't train what is your interest in a ninjutsu website?

[Rens ter Weijde]

Friends,

I've read all the posts just a moment ago and it seems to get a little rough now. I can tell you the guy who made the site is a pretty serious bujinkan practicioner, and I can understand where he's coming from since he put a lot of hard work in creating the site. I'm sure when he reads this he'll be open to you about his name and all, there's no reason to hide it. Besides, there was no bad intention to hurt anyone's incomes/pride/respect at all, the idea was simply that, since everything was on the internet anyway, to collect things and put them together so everyone can learn and enjoy.

I've had a talk with the guy about Mats' posts, and I'll have to agree with him that he disliked the tone in the messages, regardless of who's right in this case. There are better (and easier!) ways to get your movie off a website, you don't have to threaten with sueing people immediately, that just shows that you don't understand what the underlying motive to create this website was.

Please don't think I'm disrespecting anyone, I just think that whatever your grade in Bujinkan you should be respectful to anyone and communicate in a normal and relaxed manner. The training should teach us more than just the 'fighting' part shouldn't it? :)


Rens ter Weijde

[shinbushi]

If my videos are on Youtube you can link to them, don't download them and upload them somewhere else. [/url]
Actually with the right software you can.

[Shinobi_Iri]

Finally my account is accepted and I can post under my own name.....I apologise Elftengu that you got upset, was not my intention. If you read carefully what i wrote before then you know I meant it differently. I was just trying to defend myself by the fact that Mats believes I uploaded the movies, which I did NOT.

Furthermore I asked Kesshi to follow procedure which includes identification (Mats Hjelm) and proof of rights ownership of the clips. Kesshi…I am sure you are Mats Hjelm, but I will not put my hand in fire for that. Would you just take my word if I was to say I am Mihai Daraban and i would ask YOU to do somethinig in my name? Would you do that only based on a name on a forum? Anyway, if the procedure is followed then I finnaly will be able to remove those clips that created all this fuss.

Just for today, I will not worry.
Just for today, I will not be angry.
Just for today, I will give thanks for my many blessings.
Just for today, I will do my work honestly.
Just for today, I will be kind to every living thing"

Arigato Gozaimashita,

[ElfTengu]

Hi Mihai,

I can see your point of view but if a tengu who lived at the top of a mountain took something from you and said you could have it back if you climbed up the mountain to get it, you might think "Why should I climb up the mountain? The tengu should come down the mountain (which is easier) and give it back!"

If enough of us long term e-budoka give you our opinion on here that we firmly believe Kesshi is Mats Hjelm, will you please take this on faith, rather than asking Mats to go out of his way to provide proof of who he is?

(sorry Mats, I know you can fight your own battles but if some of us can help sort this out more quickly and easily I'm sure it would save you some bother).

Anyhow Mihai It could seem that you are just being a little difficult ,when a little good faith could end up with you being permitted to show a couple of Mats' videoclips which would be well worth having and your website is certainly a better idea than trawling through hours of youtube footage to find the good stuff.

As for your comments on MAP, perhaps the nin symbol would be best for your website if you are not going to be exclusively Bujinkan. Imagine a Bujinkan shihan going to your website and seeing other organisations' budo there under a Bujinkan banner. I'm sure the other X-kans would have a similar viewpoint, you can't buy a Big Mac in Burger King!

[Shinobi_Iri]

Hmm, I was a bit difficult, weren’t I? Well, no more of that then. A kind word or a please would have been sufficient from the start. Unfortunately my personality is like a mirror and I react accordingly. I have to work on my fight fire with water (in stead of fire) approach :D. Thanks ElfTengu for the reminder. And I will change the badge and the site as soon as possible, so everybody interested in the Ninpo/Ninjutsu art can see al the nice little small differences of the different X-kans and To Shin-Do. I guess am building a mall now, so people can go inside and choose Burger King, McDonalds, KFC or Taco Bell :D


Btw, I have a feeling something bad happened on youtbe and that is why mats wanted it off.


did he ask to be put up openly like this and get all the stupid comments some people like to make.

Could somebody shed some light on this please? I then might understand why Mats reacted the way he reacted.