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Andrei Arefiev
11th April 2001, 14:56
Hi,

This continues my question session :)

I hope that with Messrs. Skoss, Lowry, Hall and others on this board I'd be able to get some first-hand information on a few questions that have come up on two different Russian discussion forums (yes, there are some here too).

My first question is: I was quite certain when I said on one of the above-mentioned forums that Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu are separate styles, but then doubt came on me. To quote from "Koryu bujutsu": "Founder Araki Mataemon trained under Yagyu Munenori of the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, and was granted permission to use the Yagyu name in his own school's name by Yagyu Jubei." This left me wondering how much of his training came to influence the style he founded, i.e. whether anything in the Yagyu Shingan-ryu is related to Shinkage-ryu.

The rest are related to what was discussed in the Sword Arts forums (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=5419) regarding Ueshiba and Seagal having presumably practised Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. Somebody mentioned jujutsu being practised in YSR, which, I believe, is the resulting of mixing the two styles. Could somebody, please, confirm that there is none? Also, somebody else (on the Russian forums) said that Mr. Seagal used to live a few weeks each year in the Yagyu village, that's where he might have practised the YSR. I believe, this should be easy to check for those interested.

Thank you.

Addition: Could anyone comment on the school called "Yagyu Shinken Itto-ryu" or something like? I've never heard about it, but would be careful not to assume anything yet.

Dave Lowry
11th April 2001, 16:51
My seniors and betters in YSR are more qualified to answer some of your questions, but:

Steve Seagal never lived in Yagyu-zato. To my knowledge, he has never made such a claim. (Not sure where he'd have lived if he'd wanted to, unless he camped out in the junior high school yard. The town is not too much more than a wide spot in the road.)
Even if he had, he'd have had a tough time studying YSR there. It has not been taught there, I don't think, for a very long time. There is a kendo dojo there, Maskisaka Dojo. That's all.
In all his movies and in watching him teach in person, I have never seen Mr. Seagal do a single thing with a sword or his body that resembled anything in YSR. Again, to my knowledge he has never made any claims related to the ryu.

Cordially,

Dave Lowry
11th April 2001, 16:52
My seniors and betters in YSR are more qualified to answer some of your questions, but:

Steve Seagal never lived in Yagyu-zato. To my knowledge, he has never made such a claim. (Not sure where he'd have lived if he'd wanted to, unless he camped out in the junior high school yard. The town is not too much more than a wide spot in the road.)
Even if he had, he'd have had a tough time studying YSR there. It has not been taught there, I don't think, for a very long time. There is a kendo dojo there, Maskisaka Dojo. That's all.
In all his movies and in watching him teach in person, I have never seen Mr. Seagal do a single thing with a sword or his body that resembled anything in YSR. Again, to my knowledge he has never made any claims related to the ryu.

If I may ask, what is it you fellows in Russia are smoking?

Cordially,

Andrei Arefiev
11th April 2001, 18:08
Thank you, Mr. Lowry. As I said, it's what has been said about Mr. Seagal, not something that I talk or even care much about.

And, to tell you the truth, I don't smoke :) It's maybe these hot days that we finally got, although they promise the cold coming back by the weekend.

Also, we here are in a position much worse than in most other places, regarding reliable information on budo, especially all things koryu. Books in English are hard to obtain and, worse still, there still aren't that many people who can read them. Some (in particular the Draeger series) have been translated, but the latest paperback of "Classical Bujutsu" that I saw was terrible (never even bothered to check the translation, one look at the picture quality sufficed). It's worth still with Japanese (mine was just good enough to check the lineages of the two ryuha in question in "Nihon Kobudo Soran" and see that they have no names in common). So, it's not as much the question of what we are smoking as of what we are reading and who we are listening to.

(In case I sound like I'm offended by your comment, no, I'm not. I'm just sad about this situation. Actually, in the last two days I heard and learned too many things here I didn't like, and I'm now wondering what could be the best thing to do about it.)

Thank you :smilejapa

Meik Skoss
13th April 2001, 14:09
(Yagyu) Shinkage-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu are totally different ryu. If you look hard at the latter's kata, there are some indications of (Y)SR influence on YSgR, but not much more.

Ueshiba Morihei never studied Shinkage-ryu to the best of my knowledge, though he probably absorbed a bit of the technique from seeing it done by Gejo Kosaburo, an associate of Takeshita Isamu (who helped Ueshiba a lot when he was getting established in Tokyo).

As for Seagal studying Shinkage-ryu in Yagyu-zato on a part-time/occasional basis, Dave Lowry's right: there is no Shinkage-ryu practice there, just a bit of kendo. The Masakisaka Dojo is quite a nice place, but it's more of a keikoba for local school kendo clubs and a gasshukujo for groups from other places. So I rather doubt there is any substance to that statement. He's certainly never trained with any of the major Shinkage-ryu teachers, or I'd've heard about it. There aren't many non-Japanese who've done so, and I know pretty near all of 'em.

Hope this helps.

Pavel Rott
13th April 2001, 21:14
Hi, Andrei, I can see that you got here first. I was contemplaiting about posting the similar questions here but my procrastination got the best of me.

Let me expand the Andrei's inqiries a bit, since the discussion that we had had touched not only the relationship between Yagyu Shinkage ryu and Yagyu Shingan ryu, but also establishement of the latter.

When I tried to find out any information regaring the establishement of Yagyu Shingan ryu, I immediately found the qute that Andrey supplied (from koryu.com):
Systems: taijutsu (jujutsu), kenjutsu, bojutsu, naginatajutsu, iaijutsu
Date founded: early 1600s
Founded by: Araki Mataemon, 1584-1637
Present representative/headmaster: 10th soke Muto Masao
Primarily located in: Kanagawa Prefecture

But then here at ebudo "Classical budo" was quoted: "Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."

And then just to add to my confusion, Prof. Bodiford wrote:"According to Yagyű Shinganryű scrolls sometime around 1600 a person from Sendai named Takenaga Hayato (a.k.a. Jikinyű) traveled to Edo where he became an acquaintance and, eventually, a friend of Yagyű Munenori (1571--1646). Takenaga already had formulated his own martial system called Shinganryű. Munenori was so impressed by Takenaga´s abilities (so say the documents) that Munenori granted him permission to preface the name of his style with the extremely prestigious "Yagyű" name."

Three persons are mentioned (unless it's the same name with different kanji reading :) I have to admit that I am totally confused.

Here is my first question: are these people related or what quote should I believe ? Is there a reliable information regaring the founder of Yagyu Shingan ryu or after 400 years it is almost impossible to say ?

Second - related to Steven Seagal and YSR. I saw 2 short clips of Hatsuo Matsuoka, one is a bokken kata (said to be "Yagyu ryu sambon ju kata") and another is a jo kata ("Hozoin ryu kata-ippon"). Can you please look at them and say whether they look like anything you recognize ?
URLS:
http://aikido.bugeisha.ru/video/b4.avi
http://aikido.bugeisha.ru/video/urok_b_5.mpg

And Andrei, I respectully disagree with your grim outlook about the state of available information in Russia. Given some determination, it is quite possible to investigate _any_ claim. As for fraudulent/false/misleading information - there is plenty of it everywhere.

Thank you.

Pavel Rott
13th April 2001, 21:17
double post

Andrei Arefiev
14th April 2001, 17:41
Meik,

Thanks a lot for the info. Really, the main question was about the possible connection between the two ryuha.

After checking the lineages in "Nihon Kobudo Soran", I kinda lost any doubts regarding them being separate, but thought it might still be useful to ask. And, as Pavel mentions, there might be some misunderstanding of the Draeger quote that'd better be resolved.

Pavel,

I'm afraid, I don't share your optimism. True, more information is becoming available and there are more people who are ready to investigate it, but still it's rather difficult to find sources to cross-check claims and references, that would also be widely known and available. I mean, if there were, the whole issue (that I think you know about) wouldn't have arisen.

And, before you ask, no, it's not that issue I had in mind when I said about recent events. But, with those too, the availability of decent information in Russian would make life so much easier.

Addition: Here, I just thought of another thing. Are the observable "indications" of Shinkage-ryu in Yagyu Shingan-ryu due to the remote historical relation or to the fact that among the more recent generations there were some who trained in both? Or is it possible at all to know the answer to this?

With best wishes,

George Kohler
28th July 2002, 06:20
Just found this website. I looks like it is from one of Muto Masao's students. I think it said that he is now the 11th soke. It's in Japanese, but does have an English section. Hope you enjoy.



Yagyu Shingan ryu taijutsu (http://www.kunpooan.com/arakido.html)

KTT
7th August 2002, 09:23
Dear Mr. Kohler,

Thank you for the link.

What is the relationship (if any) between the Yagyu Shingan Ryu founded by Araki Mataemon and the Yagyu Shingan Ryu founded by Takenaga Hayato? I've read both ryu were developed in Sendai. If I'm not mistaken, Shimazu Kenji sensei, Osano Jun sensei and Tanemura Shoto sensei do the Takenaga Hayato originated Yagyu Shingan Ryu.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Kevin T. Tanemura

George Kohler
7th August 2002, 16:35
Hi Kevin,

That's a good question. I was thinking about asking the same question, but hadn't had any time lately. I hope someone can help. Daniel Lee?

Rick3127
6th December 2006, 02:34
Hi all

A question for any genbukan members. I was wondering what the difference was between Yagyu Shingan Kacchu Yawara and Yagyu Shingan Heijutsu?

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Richard Dias

George Kohler
6th December 2006, 04:04
Based on what I have observed both branches are similar, but with their own "flavor" so-to-speak. They have been branched off couple centuries ago, so they are going to look different. The Genbukan's Yagyu Shingan branch name is Yagyu Shingan-ryu heiho kacchu yawara.

I'm not sure about the weapons, though.

Rick3127
6th December 2006, 06:58
Hi George

Thanks for the answer. The reason I asked was because on Sato Sensei's web site jujutsu.com they talk about Yagyu Shingan Heijutsu. In the genbukan hombu website it mentions Yagyu Shingan Kacchu Yawara which Mr Tanemura was taught by Sato Sensei. I was trying to ascertain whether they were seperate lines as Mr Tanemura was not mentioned in the jujutsu.com list of students the Yagyu Shingan Heijutsu lineage was pasted onto. This being the case I was wondering whether Mr Tanemura's line is an off shoot of Yagyu Shingan Heijutsu or is it a totally different line?

Thanks in Advance

Richard Dias

Ames
14th December 2006, 01:38
At this point, totally diffirent line.

Richard Dias
14th December 2006, 03:04
Hi Chris

Thanks for your response. Just to clarify are we saying that Sato Sensei had been taught two different lines and had passed one of them to Mr Tanemura and the other to the students listed on jujutsu.com?

Thanks

Richard Dias

Ames
14th December 2006, 22:26
To be honest, I'm not sure. It's possible that Tanemura was taught this art my someone else and not Sato at all. But again, I'm not sure. I would suggest emailing the Genbukan about it. From my minimal correspondance with them, they are very good at replying to honest, respectful questions concerning the sources for the material they teach.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Mekugi
15th December 2006, 02:21
Hi all

A question for any genbukan members. I was wondering what the difference was between Yagyu Shingan Kacchu Yawara and Yagyu Shingan Heijutsu?

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Richard Dias

I'm not a member of the Genbukan, but here is something that might help:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yagyu+shingan+ryu&search=Search

Ames
15th December 2006, 10:05
Also, I forgot in my last post, there is a website:

www.arakido.org

Sarah Lappin
26th February 2007, 04:57
Hello Richard,

Having conferred with Philip Hinshelwood of the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in Australia, Kacchu 甲冑 means armor (yoroi 鎧) referring to that which was worn by warriors on the battlefield. Yawara is an alternative word for Jujutsu (i.e. 柔 やわら - Yawara and 柔術 じゅうじゅつ - Jujutsu use the same character meaning 'soft').

Heijutsu means 'warrior art or technique'. 兵 へい - hei meaning soldier or warrior or sometimes translated as military, and 術 じゅつ -jutsu meaning 'art of'. So Heijutsu could be translated as warrior art or military art.

I am a student of Yagyu Shingan Ryu which was founded by Takenaga Hayato. Our Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu has Kacchu Yawara in its syllabus, but I know nothing of the training content of the Genbukan.

Our tradition Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu under Headmaster Shimazu Kenji has a branch school in Australia, Sweden and France.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards,

Sarah Lappin

Louvere
3rd March 2007, 03:56
Hi Richard,

I just read your post dated 6/12/2006 re Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heijutsu. I don't know how much or to what level of Yagyu Shingan Kacchu Yawara was taught to Mr. Tanemura by Sato Kinbei. According to Yagyu Shingan Ryu records Sato Kinbei passed his Yagyu Shingan Ryu line on to Takeuchi Nobuyoshi.

Sato Kinbei received the tradition from Suzuki Sensaku Tadamori. Hope this helps you with your research.

Regards,

Simon Louis

Paul Steadman
7th March 2007, 03:12
Hello Everyone,

Just an observation. It only seems like yesterday (1995 in fact), that I was talking to the Australian Shibucho of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Heiho-jutsu Chikuosha branch, about how YSR was (then) a very little known system, even in Japan. Then the "Information Super-Highway," rudely invaded our conscoisness! Now I don't think there's a martial artist without access to the net that isn't aware of Yagyu Shingan-ryu and its various branches.

Ciao,

Inazuma
7th March 2007, 10:26
though as with everything, Internet related information should be taken with a grain of salt (a bit of pepper and maybe some basil) :P
for the more accurate answers one should usually try to go to the source...

I think the Internet had a massive effect on the distribution of knowledge in general and can be an amazing tool (although like with any tool one must be careful lest one injures himself), if anything I wish there was more information on the koryu!!

bu-kusa
8th March 2007, 13:41
Dear all, there is more information on this here:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?433&cgBoard_boardID=1&cgThread_threadID=405&cgTopic_topicID=11


From that source it seems that


The Genbukan style taught is a branch of Hoshi Sadakichi; more specifically through Suzuki Sensaku. (note Tanemura Sensei has Menkyo Kaiden in this branch)

(Arakido is a totally different Yagyu Shingan-ryu with a different founder.)

There are two lines of Yagyu Shingan-ryu. The Edo-line is known as Taijustu (Arakido), and the Sendai-line is called Heijutsu. Hoshi Sadakichi, Suzuki Sensaku and Sato Kinbei were all masters of the Sendai-line, Heijutsu.

Hope that clarifies things a little :)

seijaku kage
9th March 2007, 04:06
In the old panther videos Tanemura says sato kinbei(spelling) taught him yagyu shingan ryu. i beleive it was on the 3rd jujutsu vid.

Louvere
9th March 2007, 04:49
This is an interesting website on the Yagyu Shingan Ryu from Europe.

http://www.yagyushinganryu.se/history.php

Regards,

Simon

Simon Louis

EcoRI
10th March 2007, 05:26
In the old panther videos Tanemura says sato kinbei(spelling) taught him yagyu shingan ryu. i beleive it was on the 3rd jujutsu vid.


Yep, thats right. I think its on the 5th video where is shows Kata from various ryu-ha. I also have a dvd which celebrates Tanemura Sensei's 50th year as a budoka, on this dvd it has footage of Sato sensei demonstrating YSR (I think) at one of the USA TaiKais.

I also read Michael Coleman Kyoshi's book "Warrior Apprenticeship with the Grand Master", and from memory (was a borrowed copy so I cant reference), he has been awarded the first level densho/grade in YSR (sorry, not sure of the grade levels in YSR). I cant remember if this was awarded to him by Tanemura Sensei or Sato Sensei. Either way I'm sure that Tanemura Sensei's YSR training came from Sato Sensei.

Perhaps I'm not the best person to post on this issue, but I hope it helps.

Thanks

Mekugi
11th March 2007, 14:30
(Arakido is a totally different Yagyu Shingan-ryu with a different founder.)


Supposidly they all go back to Ushu Tatewaki, the branches today have two lineal progenies.

Fred27
11th March 2007, 14:35
Supposidly they all go back to Ushu Tatewaki, the branches today have two lineal progenies.

They are still duking it out on the YRS article on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yagyu_Shingan_Ryu. All this is beyond my league though.

George Kohler
11th March 2007, 17:02
on this dvd it has footage of Sato sensei demonstrating YSR (I think) at one of the USA TaiKais.

In the early 90's Tanemura Sensei brought Sato Kinbei sensei and Sato Sensei's daughter to New York City during a Genbukan Taikai. All three demonstrated Yagyu Shingan-ryu (not necessarily at the same time) and it was stated by Tanemura Sensei, in front of Sato Sensei and his daughter, that he learned it from Sato Sensei.

FUGA DOJO
11th March 2007, 23:29
It Was An Excellent Seminar I Must Say...

Greg Weathers
Fuga Dojo Cho

EcoRI
12th March 2007, 12:37
In the early 90's Tanemura Sensei brought Sato Kinbei sensei and Sato Sensei's daughter to New York City during a Genbukan Taikai. All three demonstrated Yagyu Shingan-ryu (not necessarily at the same time) and it was stated by Tanemura Sensei, in front of Sato Sensei and his daughter, that he learned it from Sato Sensei.


Thanks George,

I was sure it was in the USA.

Thanks for confirming that.

Do you know if Sato Sensei taught any other ryu-ha at that TaiKai (Asayama Ichiden ryu/Araki shin ryu etc)?

Thanks

FUGA DOJO
12th March 2007, 20:59
IF memory serves me correct Sato Kinbei sensei also covered
PA KUA
some AIKI concepts...

LOTS OF INTERNAL THINGS....

TANEMURA SENSEI ALSO COVERED...TAKAGI YOSHIN RYU..
UPPER LEVEL.(INSTRUCTOR CLASS) .ASAYAMA ICHIDEN RYU

Sorry george..didnt mean to answer your question..It just made me think for a second..

Greg Weathers
Fuga dojo cho

EcoRI
13th March 2007, 02:00
Thanks Greg,

I guess the advantage of these TaiKais is that if your below Sandan (or not doing ryu-ha at Shodan level etc), it lets you study a bit of ryu-ha.

Wish I was there.

Getting back to the YSR topic, has Tanemura sensei taught this school to many people in a classical setting (as ryu-ha study etc), I noticed that Michael Coleman Kyoshi has some level of experience in it.

Thanks

Rick3127
13th March 2007, 03:02
Hi All,

Thanks for all your answer's. My original answer has been answered in fall.

Thanks for sharing.

Richard

kabutoki
3rd June 2007, 20:38
Hi,
in 2004 Quest Video published the first part of the 3 Yagyu Shingan Ryu videos by Shimazu Kenji. Does anybody know if there are plans to publish the other two parts as well?

Karsten

Louvere
7th June 2007, 03:27
Hello Karsten,

I'll be speaking with Philip Hinshelwood (Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu - Australia) in the next few days, so I'll ask him and get back to you. He's a direct student of Shimazu Kenji. In the meantime have a look at
www.yagyushinganryu.se

Regards,

Simon
Simon Louis

kabutoki
7th June 2007, 10:19
Hello Simon,
thank you very much for your offer. I really enjoyed watching the first part and I am curious about the follwing ones. I could of course get the tapes, but since I don´t have a TV, DVDs would be far less complicated.

Best regards,
Karsten

kabutoki
18th June 2007, 23:45
Hello Simon,
were you able to find out something about the videos?

Regards,
Karsten

Paul Steadman
19th June 2007, 02:53
Hello,

Check out http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/search.php?substring=yagyu I actually purchased Vol-1 of YSR Chikuosha off Shimazu Kenji-sensei in person back in 1993 at an Australian seminar. The footage is excellent and the content very interesting, but only shows the omote waza unless you are a member of the ryu and training under an authorised sensei you won't understand the ura waza.

Cheers,

kabutoki
19th June 2007, 07:32
Hi Paul,
thank you for your input. I was actually just asking about the two parts that are availiable only on tape right now. I am well aware of the concepts of koryu teaching. The only reason I´m asking is the one I stated: I enjoyed watching the first part, thats all... ( and I don´t have a TV so I´d prefer DVDs).

Karsten

Louvere
19th June 2007, 10:04
Hi Karsten,

I spoke with Philip Hinshelwood a few days ago. He's quite busy at this time and won't be able to assist with your enquiry until sometime in August.

Regards,

Simon Louis

kabutoki
19th June 2007, 10:26
Hello Simon,
thank you very much for your effort! We´ll see what happens.

Best regards,
Karsten

ouch!
13th October 2007, 14:50
Yagyu Shingan-ryu, whether Sendai line or Edo line is a comprehensive combat system (sogo bujitsu). Armored Yawara is only one component of the system. Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) studied the Yawara component of YSR. Yawara is generally taught first, followed by weapons forms at a more advanced level. Menkyo Kaiden would not be awarded for Yawara alone. Perhaps a new branch was formed which only taught Yawara, but this seems odd to say the least.

EcoRI
20th October 2007, 06:00
Yagyu Shingan-ryu, whether Sendai line or Edo line is a comprehensive combat system (sogo bujitsu). Armored Yawara is only one component of the system. Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) studied the Yawara component of YSR. Yawara is generally taught first, followed by weapons forms at a more advanced level. Menkyo Kaiden would not be awarded for Yawara alone. Perhaps a new branch was formed which only taught Yawara, but this seems odd to say the least.

On the Genbukan site it mentions that Michael Coleman has a Shoden Menkyo in YSR! From his book, he doesn't seem to mention about any weapons training. In the Genbukan Taikai DVD he demonstrates Kacchu Yawara, but no jujutsu, torite etc.

Do any of the main lines have weapons training up to Shoden Menkyo?

Although this comes from the Sendai-line, via Sato Sensei, is it safe to assume that this has become a new line? I thought that grades in Sendai YSR could only be issued from Shimazu Sensei?

Cheers!

ouch!
20th October 2007, 06:43
.... In the Genbukan Taikai DVD he demonstrates Kacchu Yawara, but no jujutsu, torite etc.

Do any of the main lines have weapons training up to Shoden Menkyo?

I thought that grades in Sendai YSR could only be issued from Shimazu Sensei?

Yawara and jujutsu are one and the same. Kacchu Yawara is essentially, Armored Jujutsu.

Traditionally, shoden is not a license (menkyo). It is equivalent to shodan in modern terms, and indicates that a person has an understanding of the fundamentals, and can now begin serious training ("sho" literally means beginner).

As far as awarding grades in the Sendai line of YSR, it should be stated that Shimazu Kenji is not the headmaster of the Sendai line. Hoshi sensei is. It is my understanding that any individual who has received menkyo kaiden may award grades. Of course, Shimazu sensei is one of them.

Recognized teachers of Yagyu Shingan-ryu in Japan are all members of either the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. These are the only kobudo (koryu) associations recognized by the Japan Budo Association (Nippon Budokan).

EcoRI
20th October 2007, 11:34
Yawara and jujutsu are one and the same. Kacchu Yawara is essentially, Armored Jujutsu.

Recognized teachers of Yagyu Shingan-ryu in Japan are all members of either the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. These are the only kobudo (koryu) associations recognized by the Japan Budo Association (Nippon Budokan).

Thanks for that David,

By Kacchu Yawara I was thinking of that nijuichi kajo on the Shimazu Sensei DVD. I thought the 'jujutsu' was seperate to the kacchu yawara. I guess thats my ignorance from using wikipedia as a source!!!

Never the less, thanks for your input, you answered my question regarding the recognition of particular branches very well.

Cheers.

Lance Gatling
21st October 2007, 04:08
David wrote...

"Recognized teachers of Yagyu Shingan-ryu in Japan are all members of either the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. These are the only kobudo (koryu) associations recognized by the Japan Budo Association (Nippon Budokan)."

Sorry, I don't understand this.

AFAIK neither the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai nor Nihon Kobudo Kyokai certify teachers. I'm more familiar with the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, but it only registers ryuha; those ryuha and their teachers produce documentation that show them to be an historic ryuha. Only the ryuha leadership can certify anyone as a legit instructor in a given style, not those umbrella, cooperative organizations. I don't think either hand out certifications or titles to individuals. They are cooperative groups to promote kobudo; their main events are Kubudosai, or Ancient Martial Arts Festival exhibitions.

Nippon Budokan does not translate as the Japan Budo Association. A more correct translation would be Japan Martial Arts Hall.

As far as I know, the Nippon Budokan does not 'recognize' associations as such. Don't think the Budokan has the charter or expertise to recognize something as legitimate or not, but all the organizations housed there are blue chip martial arts outfits. It does house the admin offices of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, the All Japan Kendo Federation (Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei), the All Japan Rifle Bayonet Federation (Nihon Jukendo Renmei), amongst others.

Budokan leadership helps tie a lot of things together, and the Budokan Foundation belongs to several different martial arts organizations, but recognizing one association or another is not a Budokan function as such as far as I know. I belong to a couple of those organizations; the Budokan Foundation cooperates with some, and its leadership leads others.

Incidentally, IIRC, the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is recognized by the Japanese Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, which is a powerful endorsement.

Cheers,

Lance Gatling
Tokyo, Japan

ouch!
21st October 2007, 10:34
Sorry, I don't understand this.
Thank you Lance. I apologize if my remarks were misleading. Allow me to further clarify the point I was trying to get across. The Nihon Kobudo Shinkoukai 日本古武道振興会 and the Nihon Kobudo Kyoukai 日本古武道協会 grant membership only to legitimate ryu-ha and their practitioners, after inspection of historical documentation. Sorry, no fancy certificates or steak knives. There are schools who have failed to meet these standards and in an effort to prove themselves legitimate, they have formed their own associations. I therefore stress, that only the two organizations listed above are recognized both officially and by the Japanese koryu community as a whole.

Regarding the definition of Nippon Budokan, I do read Japanese and know exactly what it means. The Japan Budo Association 日本武道協議会, translates as "Nippon Budo Kyogikai".

The Kobudo Kyoukai and Shinkoukai are featured on the Budokan's website, and yes, the Budokan does house the admin offices as you mentioned. Every two years, Nippon Budokan / Japan Budo Association hosts the Nihon Kobudo Embutaikai. Only main-line, legitimate ryu-ha are invited to exhibit their arts.

Lance Gatling
21st October 2007, 13:41
Thanks, I get the correction, and appreciate the expansion.

ouch!
15th November 2007, 05:13
Are the observable "indications" of Shinkage-ryu in Yagyu Shingan-ryu due to the remote historical relation or to the fact that among the more recent generations there were some who trained in both? Or is it possible at all to know the answer to this?

I realize this thread is more than a few years old, but I'll offer my 2 cents anyway. The late headmaster of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu, Mutoh Masao, received Menkyo Kaiden in Owari Yagyu Shinkage-ryu from Ohtsubo Shihou. Over the past few decades, both styles have been practiced in unison and are considered to compliment each other. I can not answer your questions with any certainty, but it is unlikely, Mutoh, a regarded budo historian, would attempt to fuse the two together. The subtle similarities most likely existed long before Mutoh introduced cross-training.

fifthchamber
16th November 2007, 01:21
Hello David,
I hope all is well with yourself and training?

Have you noticed many similarities in the sword training of Shingan Ryu and that you've seen in Shinkage Ryu?Since Shinkage Ryu is rather singular in many of it's kamae and techniques I was wondering what you make of the "join" between the two..

It makes sense that someone who had studied the Shinkage Ryu would use that as a base for the Kenjutsu he added to his own ryuha, but I was wondering how far you think that went?

It would be fun to check those kinds of things in my own art, but Takeuchi Ryu's Ken and the origins of it are rather less clear, perhaps being some form of family art passed down through the Minamoto...However, the similarities between what we do and what the schools that were formed after us do is rather incredible and I wanted to know what your own observations of that were..

All the best.

Ben Sharples

ouch!
19th November 2007, 06:19
Hi Ben,

I'll send you a private message in response to your questions.

kabutoki
22nd March 2008, 04:04
Well,
it did happen at last:
http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=25305&cat=&page=1

Steve Delaney
22nd March 2008, 18:12
Hello Karsten,

I'll be speaking with Philip Hinshelwood (Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu - Australia) in the next few days, so I'll ask him and get back to you. He's a direct student of Shimazu Kenji. In the meantime have a look at
www.yagyushinganryu.se

Regards,

Simon
Simon Louis

How is Phillip?

I met him a long time ago after a Nihon Budokan demonstration with a few others.

Nice fellow.

Paul Steadman
26th March 2008, 06:25
Hi all,

I have got the koryu research bug again and have been doing some historical research and I'm studying up on comprehensive sogo bujutsu and any their off-shoots. In regards to Yagyu Shingan Ryu I have heard that there are a few lines of YSR Heiho (Sendai line), having actually attended about 5 of Shimazu Kenji-sensei's seminars in Australia since 1993 to 2003. But I was wondering how many branches of the Edo line of YSR exist. Does anyone have any details of the current headmasters of same? I am aware that the taijutsu line differs technically from the Sendai line and was also wondering who formed the taijutsu/Edo line of YSR? Any pointers or links to same would be appreciated. Thank you.

Ciao,

Louvere
26th March 2008, 06:59
Hello Paul,

The YSR Edo line appears to have diverted into four lines. All these Headmasters are Menkyo Kaiden in the Edo line.
1. Ishikawa Yashiroji
2. Fujisada Takeo
3. Shimazu Kenji
4. Kajisuka Yasushi
It is not known if the lines of Ishikawa Yashiroji or Fujisada Takeo have been passed down.
The Edo line of the Yagyu Shingan Ryu was founded by Koyama Samon when He left his home in Sendai and travelled to Edo.
The Soke of their particular branch are for example Shimazu Kenji Yagyu Shingan Ryu 'Chikuosha' and Kajisuka Yasushi Yagyu Shingan Ryu 'Arakido'.

Hope that helps with your question.

Simon Louis.

mw17
29th March 2008, 09:54
This information provided by Simon appears accurate, as the lineage shown is the same information I was able to obtain.

Only joining this forum a few months ago, this is some of the most interesting info I have seen.

Thanks for the info Simon your knowledge of the YSR lineage is impressive

Matt

Louvere
11th April 2008, 03:55
Greg,

Sato Kinbei's name does not appear to be included in the Edo line YSR Taijutsu. Kacchu Yawara is a part of the YSR Heihojutsu syllabus. Kacchu mean armor (yoroi) as worn on the battlefield by warriors. Yawara is an alternative word for Jujutsu. Basically armoured grappling.

Sato Kinbei's name is included in the YSR, known as Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heijutsu 'Daiwado'. It shows he passed his style onto Takeuchi Nobuyoshi.

Regards,

Simon

Simon Louis

Rick3127
11th April 2008, 04:47
Greg,

The late Sato Kimbei's school has a website (http://www.jujutsu.com) . There is a list of students that the YSR Heijutsu was passed on to but no mention of a separate art called YSR Katchu Yawara or indeed Mr Tanemura. Clearly this does not mean that Mr Tanemura didn't study YSR under Sato Kimbei. I'd suggest you contact the website to get more information.

Regards,

Richard Dias

ouch!
23rd August 2008, 09:26
Gentlemen, allow me to make sense of all this.


I am aware that the Taijutsu-line differs technically from the Sendai line and was also wondering who formed the Taijutsu/Edo line of YSR?

Headmaster Koyama Samon moved to Edo (Tokyo) later in life and operated a dojo there for 18 years. Life in Japan’s capital (Edo) was far different from that of his hometown of Sendai. This led to the style’s initial evolution. Matsuo Oriemon, who had received a license from Koyama, continued to pass-on the Edo style of Yagyu Shingan-ryu after Koyama retired to his hometown of Sendai.


I’ve heard that there are a few lines of YSR Heiho (Sendai line), but I was wondering how many branches of the Edo line of YSR exist.

There is only one main-line (unbroken lineage) school of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu and that is “Arakido”, headed by 11th Headmaster Kajitsuka Yasushi. Just as there is only one main-line school of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Heiho, headed by Hoshi Kunio II. In regard to off-shoot schools of Edo-line YSR, there are a couple of individuals, but none of them hold Menkyo Kaiden, and all of them acknowledge Kajitsuka Yasushi as the “Headmaster”. Therefore, they aren’t really separate lines as such.


The YSR Edo line appears to have diverted into four lines. All these Headmasters are Menkyo Kaiden in the Edo line.
1. Ishikawa Yashiroji
2. Fujisada Takeo
3. Shimazu Kenji
4. Kajisuka Yasushi
The Soke of their particular branch are for example Shimazu Kenji Yagyu Shingan Ryu 'Chikuosha' and Kajisuka Yasushi Yagyu Shingan Ryu 'Arakido'.

Firstly, Kajitsuka Yasushi is the headmaster of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu (Edo-line). He has not formed “a branch”. Secondly, Fujisada was a disciple of Headmaster Yamamoto, as was Muto Masao. When Muto Masao was chosen as heir to Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu (10th Soke), Fujisada served under him. He did not break away and form a new branch. I should also note that Fujisada did not receive the full transmission of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu, and neither did Ishikawa Yashiroji. Now in regard to Shimazu Kenji, Yes, it is a fact that the Hidenkan Makimono was awarded to Yorifuji Chuhachiro by Headmaster Ohshima Masateru in 1858. Shimazu Kenji’s teacher was Aizawa Tomio who was a master of the Sendai-line of YSR, known as Heiho. Aizawa’s sister married a member of the Yorifuji family who lived in Kansai. Aizawa was permitted to study Yorifuji’s densho, but never actually trained under Yorifuji. Now, getting back to Shimazu sensei, he began training under Aizawa in 1955. Aizawa died in 1961. After Aizawa’s death, Shimazu continued to study the “Heiho” under Headmaster Hoshi Kunio. It was Otsubo Shiho (master of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu) who introduced them. Shimazu sensei does not hold Menkyo Kaiden in Edo-line YSR. This being said, I highly respect Shimazu sensei and vouch for his outstanding ability and efforts to foster Yagyu Shingan-ryu.


Just wondering what the opinion on Sato Kinbei's and Shoto Tanemura's MK's regarding the Edo line are like.

Let’s just say that neither Sato Kinbei or Tanemura are highly regarded in Koryu circles. I could tell you numerous stories about the exploits of Sato Kinbei, but I probably shouldn’t go there. While I have never met Tanemura, I see a lot of Sato sensei in him. As Simon mentioned, Sato was an instructor of the Sendai-line of YSR (Heiho), not Taijutsu.

I hope this sets things straight.

Lance Gatling
24th August 2008, 04:08
。。。。。

Let’s just say that neither Sato Kinbei or Tanemura are highly regarded in Koryu circles. I could tell you numerous stories about the exploits of Sato Kinbei, but I probably shouldn’t go there. While I have never met Tanemura, I see a lot of Sato sensei in him. As Simon mentioned, Sato was an instructor of the Sendai-line of YSR (Heiho), not Taijutsu.

I hope this sets things straight.
Lots of great info that does provide good, direct info, and a little innuendo that frankly doesn't.

'Koryu circles' seem to gossip more than old women (with all due apologies to elderly women....), and this sort of innuendo regarding Sato Kinbei doesn't seem to help add info to the discussion. Why not go there? You already did ;)

What would you have to say directly about the reputation of Sato Kinbei, particularly regarding YSR? Just curious. Anyone who claims such a broad range of mastery is going to engender suspicion, but suspicion does not equal info. But in the real world someone with a PhD, money, and time to do what he wants to do is going to engender a lot of jealousy no matter the circles. And his departures into Chinese martial arts and healing, etc., presumably weren't welcome by many.

But more pertinently to this thread, according to your info, did he study YSR under a reasonably qualified instructor? Did he make it up? Did he have any sort of traditional qualifications from anyone recognized in YSR? AFAIK the family still sponsors a YSR dojo, too, doesn't it? Is it completely unfounded in the thought of 'mainstream YSR' or however you would term it?

And Shimizu sensei certainly seems to have his own detractors, too; anyone who's in the 'martial arts press' in Japan every single month has to have run out of new things to say many, many issues ago. But he's still there, almost every month....