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MarkF
30th December 2000, 09:54
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/haraigoshi.jpg

This is a picture of A. Geesink defending against an attempted harai goshi. Bad kuzushi or good defense? (the defense is now taught against this and similar nage, EG, uchi mata).

Mark

Piotr Chelstowski
30th December 2000, 17:50
Definitely on this picture, you can see bad kuzushi. However, defense by sticking leg between the attacker's legs and hooking from the front, was penalized, at least while I was competing and coaching (70s - 90s). Regardless of this, any attempt to throw Anton Geesink forward would be very difficult task due to his size & weight (~200 cm & 145 kg).

MarkF
31st December 2000, 08:37
Hmmm, I meant to post the topic post in the "Off-balancing" thread. Apparently, I didn't think my way through when I was asked to complete both fields, but anyway...

As pictured, it is not yet illegal. Pushing tori forward would be, as would "grapevining (coiling?)" the leg. As to the shin to shin rule here, it is mainly a judgement call, but in the picture the only thing done badly is the attempt of harai goshi.

This isn't a bad throw against tall, but mere mortals, but against Antonius, it is sand-box play time for Geesink.

At my height then or now, I may have attempted a foreward throw depending on kuzushi (OK, Ed, I'll call myself Shorty), but there are forward throws which may do in a pinch, for the much shorter one. Attempting ippon seoinage would be my choice, but when the attempt to kuzushi is cut short, I may drop to my knee(s) for ippon seoi otoshi. My teacher at that time was the same height (give or take a couple of cm., and it did work on him once in a while).

Ohh. The name of the defense is Kusabi Dome, a defense probably created by K. Mifune, but later named by Geesink. I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong -- I am a ref these days) kawuzu gake is the name for the foul if the leg is entangled, and any push or waza off it would not score, at least for the one doing the foul.

BTW: Piotr, long time now. You speak good kuzushi.;) Your contributions, when made, are very good, so drp in now and then (mostly now).

[Edited by MarkF on 12-31-2000 at 02:41 AM]

efb8th
10th January 2001, 04:27
Hi, Mark.

Ah, the cartoon I would have drawn, given the talent: (Mark hanging from A. Maximus' collar like a bunch of grapes, feet drawn up) Caption reads,"Here in Open Weight, a smaller Judoka opts for the Knee-Drop Seoi Nage to throw his larger adversary."

Will a talented volunteer please step forward?

MarkF
10th January 2001, 09:07
You're an SOB, Ed, but frankly, I'd love to get Neil, Toby, and a couple of others over here to do it, 'cause that's me never backing down. A. Maximus wouldn't have a chance, so I should have his judan.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAAA ...AAAAAH.....

Mark

Jeff Cook
11th January 2001, 17:24
A counter to the counter - kani basami. Believe it or not, I have set folks up for the throw by "leading" with an apparently poor haraigoshi, drawing the counter, then sliding into kani basami. Works beautifully.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

efb8th
11th January 2001, 18:59
Jeff,

What an elegant combo! I shall immediately steal it!

MarkF
12th January 2001, 08:24
Hi, Jeff,
Faking waza, or not committing isn't legal, but then it is a judgement call. Kani basami is possble, but not with this size difference. The top leg would have to go across his chest to time it so that you can catch his legs at the same time.

But hey, if you've done it, you've done it! Was is against this defense, kusabi dome?

Mark

BTW: I'm not sure if Kani basami is legal anymore, but will check it out. I haven't seen it on the mat since the early seventies.

Jeff Cook
12th January 2001, 11:13
Crap, I guess that dates me then, Mark! :)

The top leg only has to go across his lower abdomen-upper hip area (waist), not his chest.

The exact placement of the nage's feet is not important for the kani basami counter; his kuzushi needs to be stable or slightly to the rear, as in lowerering the hips and bending the knees, sitting back on the heels a bit to defend the harai. Of course, your balance has to be set properly as well.

Back when I competed, setting someone up for a throw was not illegal. Besides, as you said, it is a judgement call. If I attempt haraigoshi and nage counters, then it is natural for me to attempt another throw from that position, as it is an excellent entering position for kani basami, and would be considered legal (I think) under current rules as along as I made the haraigoshi attempt. I think there is a difference between a "fake" and a setup, but I will have to defer to your better judgement and experience on that point.

I was executing kani basami on a regular basis in the early 80's, and I never did see anybody else attempt it in competition either.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

MarkF
12th January 2001, 11:37
Hi, Jeff,
I'm not going to date myself anymore. I stopped competing in the early eighties. Too old!

What I meant by placement of the top leg, is that you begin kuzushi at the chest, but what is important is that, while balanced on your arm (to the mat. I've never seen anyone do it successfully from a jumping, or without the balance control of the arm on the mat), that leg is coming down very fast, and will probaly be met, if fast enough, at just above the knee, taking the legs out. This is also why it is not a legal nage anymore. Too many knee injuries from badly done throws (I went to look in a manual, and it does state kani basami, along with a few others, such a dakiage, but I haven't come across the date yet).

The correct way of doing this, though, is to maintain distance between the legs on the body of uke, the top leg at or above the waist, and the other just above or at the crook in the knee. Most cannot do this, thus the danger in getting caught with it (notice I blamed uke for this.:D )

The last time I saw it, was in the AAU state tournnament in California in the early seventies. Nage jumped completely off the floor slung his legs around the waist of uke, and then nage promptly hit his head on the mat, while uke stood there wondering what was going on (true story, although I don't know what the guy's thoughts were at that moment).:)

So my hat's off to you if you were able to execute it. Obviously, you practiced this throw well, and now like it enough to include it in your syllabus at your website. Personally, anything which needs more than an 18 inch reach with the legs is out. I was born with a low center.

Mark

BTW: So when does that week end again?:o

Jeff Cook
12th January 2001, 13:51
I know, Mark - I'm a lazy bugger when it comes to the website. I gotta get my butt in gear! I've got lots of really good stuff going on for me right now (seminars, etc), and I'm afraid I've neglected the website.

I do have a physical advantage for that throw - long legs. It took me a while to figure out how to do the throw without bracing with a hand on the mat. The trick is (as with everything) figuring out the kuzushi, sabaki, maai, and timing. That's going to be hard to show in a series of pictures, so I will film the throw in motion and post it. I'll email you when I do that (I know, you are not going to hold your breath! :)) And of course when I do that, I expect you to analyze it and tell me how I can make it better (please).

I am happy to say that I have never injured myself or anybody in the execution of the throw.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

efb8th
12th January 2001, 15:51
Hi Guys!

Kane Basami (DZR: read Kane Sute) kuzushi is dependent on tori's right handed pull-up on uke's left collar and uke's commitment to left-front motion (assuming a right-side nage). The left hand bracing is an intermediate level ploy to give tori a sense of security in practice and must be retracted before kake, or it interferes with the twist to the right. The problem most often associated with learning this throw is that people try to execute from long range. It has to be done with the thighs and a strong, well-timed downward pull.

Correct me if I've left something out.

Regards,

MarkF
12th January 2001, 18:21
No arguments here, but the arm brace is momentary, as is this throw. You are also right about grabbing the collar instead of the sleeve, also right it must be done in close with the thighs. The problem is doing the throw, and not slip the legs to the knees of uke, and while it is rare in shiai, it can be done. But it is not "intermediary" to brace with the arm. This is the true form of this throw. That said, randori na kata, well randori, is the place to use it.

Jeff, I knew you have the reach for it so I didn't bring up the people it was meant to assist. I can see this throw being of value practically speaking, but then I still think the right leg should be at the thoracic level. You bang with that leg, come down and take it out from under him.

Is there more to it, of course. Is it a sensible judo throw, probably not, but you two have expaned how it can be used, and if I can get Jon Bluming to come out here, it should make for interesting play.

Much for fun, and a better learning environement I cannot perceive. Yamashita would also be grand, as he was the big man with the soft and perfect kuzushi.

Man

BTW: I am really tired and cannot type anymore, so this is going to be it today.

Also, Buddy, when I listed the order of which techniques need to be practiced and in which order, this was with the assumption ukemi, etc., is understood. In fact, it was a paraphrased quote from Kano, and he spoke of practicing, what the conditions may be, and what is available. He simply puts nage no kata at the front of the list. There is order in which he prescribes judo, so speaking basically, that is the order. Nit picking nit picking, always nit picking.:eek:

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
16th January 2001, 20:34
Mark wrote to Jeff:
Hi, Jeff,
Faking waza, or not committing isn't legal, but then it is a judgement call. Kani basami is possble, but not with this size difference. The top leg would have to go across his chest to time it so that you can catch his legs at the same time.

But hey, if you've done it, you've done it! Was is against this defense, kusabi dome?

Mark

BTW: I'm not sure if Kani basami is legal anymore, but will check it out. I haven't seen it on the mat since the early seventies.
__________________
Mark F. Feigenbaum
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hello,

I'm new to the list. My name is Ben Reinhardt. I'm looking forward to being a list member of E-Budo ! I've been doing Judo for 20 years now and am sandan, and a national referee.

Faking a technique is not illegal under current IJF rules, neither is not fully committing. Feints and fakes are legal.

What is illegal is called a "false attack", and it is considered a "negative Judo" penalty. An example would be doing a drop Seoi Otoshi (to the knees), and totally letting go of uke's gi, and falling into the turtle position. It is sometimes a tough call to make as a referee, however, circumstances will usually reveal tori's intent.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
16th January 2001, 20:43
Mark wrote to Piotr:
As pictured, it is not yet illegal. Pushing tori forward would be, as would "grapevining (coiling?)" the leg. As to the shin to shin rule here, it is mainly a judgement call, but in the picture the only thing done badly is the attempt of harai goshi.

+++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++
Pushing tori forward would not be illegal in this postion. Reaping his leg from behind is illegal, and is listed so in the current IJF rules. As far as I know, as long as the blocking foot is kept on the ground or does not touch tori, it is not illegal. Doing a grapevine to simply block the throw is not illegal, but if you pick up his leg and reap or push forward, it's illegal. Putting your shin on tori's shin is OK too, as long as you don't reap.
++++++++++++++++++++

Kawazu Gake is also illegal, for example, if uke is behind you, and you wrap his leg, then fall or jump backwards.

++++++++++++++++++++++

This isn't a bad throw against tall, but mere mortals, but against Antonius, it is sand-box play time for Geesink.

At my height then or now, I may have attempted a foreward throw depending on kuzushi (OK, Ed, I'll call myself Shorty), but there are forward throws which may do in a pinch, for the much shorter one. Attempting ippon seoinage would be my choice, but when the attempt to kuzushi is cut short, I may drop to my knee(s) for ippon seoi otoshi. My teacher at that time was the same height (give or take a couple of cm., and it did work on him once in a while).

Ohh. The name of the defense is Kusabi Dome, a defense probably created by K. Mifune, but later named by Geesink. I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong -- I am a ref these days) kawuzu gake is the name for the foul if the leg is entangled, and any push or waza off it would not score, at least for the one doing the foul.

BTW: Piotr, long time now. You speak good kuzushi. Your contributions, when made, are very good, so drp in now and then (mostly now).

[Edited by MarkF on 12-31-2000 at 02:41 AM]
__________________
Mark F. Feigenbaum

MarkF
17th January 2001, 11:32
Hi, Ben,
Welcome to E-budo!:wave:

I'm a local ref so you will excuse me, only the states of New Mexico and California.

Everything you say is true. I just looked. I had it out of order, but in general, it basically is legal, with the front foot on the mat, no pushing, while entangling/sweeping, still, it is a judgement call.

I like New Mexico. Most shiai is done without the rule of the IJF, no point scoring, no weight classes, no politics.

There is that state championship for the AAU nationals, though.

Hey, Ben, Are you going to be at any of the upcoming Lousiana shiai? The Swamp Classic, etc.? It looks like they put on a nice event. Are you any relation to Robert Reinhardt who posts here now and then? He's in Austria, I believe.

Thanks for the imput.

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
17th January 2001, 17:53
Mark wrote:
Hi, Ben,
Welcome to E-budo!

I'm a local ref so you will excuse me, only the states of New Mexico and California.

Everything you say is true. I just looked. I had it out of order, but in general, it basically is legal, with the front foot on the mat, no pushing, while entangling/sweeping, still, it is a judgement call.

I like New Mexico. Most shiai is done without the rule of the IJF, no point scoring, no weight classes, no politics.

There is that state championship for the AAU nationals, though.

Hey, Ben, Are you going to be at any of the upcoming Lousiana shiai? The Swamp Classic, etc.? It looks like they put on a nice event. Are you any relation to Robert Reinhardt who posts here now and then? He's in Austria, I believe.

Thanks for the imput.

Mark
++++++++Ben replies++++++++
Thanks for the welcome ! Sweeping the supporting leg from behind isn't a judgement call at all. It's clearly illegal under current IJF rules. Blocking by putting your shin on uke's supporting leg is not illegal...only if you sweep, which should be pretty clear.

What about the other IJF rules ? I'm unclear as to what you mean. Weight divisions aren't IJF rules, really. If you guys are holding only open weight and rank shiai you are opening yourselves to a lot of liability in the event of an serious injuries. Any rules that you use would have originated in the IJF anyway, unless you are using Kodokan rules from before the IJF was formed. Also, if your shiai are sanctioned by any of the USJx, then there are some things that have to be followed according to the current IJF rules, like safety area size, etc. Anyway, this is off topic to be sure ! I just hate to see someone get sued.

I didn't know that the AAU nationals had any qualifying events anymore. Not that AAU is really that big in Judo anymore. It used to be that way, but not anymore. For USJI nationals, seniors have to compete at the state championships to qualify...compete, but not place.

I will be at all the judo events in Louisiana this year. The Swamp is a great tournament, a national referee test site, and USJI E level point event as of this year. I've got some more I can post to the Ebudo envents list.

I'm looking forwad to more stimulating disucssions !

Ben Reinhardt