other extant lines,

[bu-kusa]

I was wondering if there are any other lines of the Shinden Fudo Ryu that are still extant outside of those taught inside the Genbukan / Bujinkan and Jinenkan Dojo?

[BMinter]

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you...

[Jieze]

I believe that those three are the only surviving lines.

I could be wrong though, there may be hidden dojos ready to train you in ways not yet mainstreamed. Try climbing your local Mongolian Mountain. :rolleyes:

[john_lord_b3]

I was wondering if there are any other lines of the Shinden Fudo Ryu that are still extant outside of those taught inside the Genbukan / Bujinkan and Jinenkan Dojo?

Check out Shobukai Dojo

http://www.aa.alpha-net.ne.jp/bahansen/syoubukai/index.htm

If you can read 2nd lines of Kanji under the sensei name, the sensei (Sakagami) claims to be 22nd generation of "Hontai Shinden Fudo-ryu Daken Taijutsu".

And yes, I am still alive after getting this information. :)

And no, I can't read Kanji :(

[bu-kusa]

Interesting, many thanks, Im trying to piece together any information about Toda Sensei, and it seems that if there are other extant lines of Shinden Fudo Ryu then they may be further proof of his existence, as well as strengthening the case for SFR to be considered as a provable Koryu art.

[john_lord_b3]

As far as I know, the SFR are not really disputed as Koryu because there are other SFR groups, including the one taught by Yata Kuninoichiro, and they have been proven to exist at least to the end of Tokugawa era (Tony Wolf and the Bartitsu group knows more about this than I do).

The Kukishin-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu are proven to be Koryu, the current practitioners of the mainline Kukishin-ryu recognized Takamatsu as one of their former shihan (Russ Ebert knows more about this than I do).

I think the disputed schools are the ones connected to the Togakure-ryu.

However, Koryu or no Koryu doesn't matter as long as the training are enjoyable.

[Tony Wolf]

Hi,

we know that Edward William Barton-Wright, the English engineer who went on to found the eclectic European/Japanese self defence art of Bartitsu, trained in the Shinden-Fudo ryu while he was staying in Kobe - this would have been sometime between 1893-1898. His sensei was named Terajima Kunichiro.

Unfortunately we don't know how much of the SFR curriculum was later incorporated into Bartitsu, which also included elements of Tenjin-Shinyo Ryu and Kano Jiujitsu (early Kodokan judo) as well as English boxing, wrestling, French savate and walking-stick fighting.

Another Westerner, Dr. Herman ten Kate of Holland, was also a SFR disciple and trained at the Kobe dojo at the same time as did Barton-Wright, but ten Kate does not seem to have persisted with his martial arts studies thereafter. He did confirm that several techniques Barton-Wright incorporated into Bartitsu were recognisable to him as SFR, but these were pretty basic and generic techniques that were probably to be found in many ryu-ha.

Incidentally, Bartitsu itself had a brief period of fame and success between 1899-1903 but was then swamped in the general English and European enthusiasm for pure jiujitsu, and Barton-Wright's method is not known to have been practiced for the best part of the 20th century, although it has recently been revived. It is possible, though probably unprovable, that elements of the SFR curriculum passed, via Barton-Wright, into the matrix of self defence arts that were combined together throughout Europe between 1899-1914.

For more see http://www.bartitsu.org .

Cheers,

Tony

[kennin]

"Hontai Shinden Fudo-ryu Daken Taijutsu".

Someone please correct me if I might be wrong, but these kanji are different, IMHO.
For Shinden Fudō Ryū I have: 神伝不動流体術
Whereas on the site it has a different kanji for "den", though I cannot figure out which.

[George Kohler]

For Shinden Fudō Ryū I have: 神伝不動流体術
Whereas on the site it has a different kanji for "den", though I cannot figure out which.

It is the older kanji for "den" 傳

[john_lord_b3]

Hi,

we know that Edward William Barton-Wright, the English engineer who went on to found the eclectic European/Japanese self defence art of Bartitsu, trained in the Shinden-Fudo ryu while he was staying in Kobe - this would have been sometime between 1893-1898. His sensei was named Terajima Kunichiro.

Thank you for the information, Wolf sensei. Is it proper to say, that, since Barton-Wright studied SFR before Takamatsu sensei, then he was Takamatsu sensei's "Ani Deshi" or "Sempai" in the art? :)

[john_lord_b3]

It is the older kanji for "den" 傳

I think so, the Den is a bit different with the one we usually see. But as I try to check with Jim Breen WWW dictionary, this PC refuses to cooperate (the system administrator did not install Kanji pack for this one). So I cannot check now. Be back later.

[Tony Wolf]

Thank you for the information, Wolf sensei. Is it proper to say, that, since Barton-Wright studied SFR before Takamatsu sensei, then he was Takamatsu sensei's "Ani Deshi" or "Sempai" in the art? :)

In an abstract sense then yes, I suppose so; but again, we don't know exactly how long Barton-Wright studied in Kobe. He did mention that one of his Japanese teachers, presumably Terajima Kunichiro, specialised in the kata form of instruction and he contrasted that with "free play", presumably in reference to the randori of Kano's jiujitsu/judo. I doubt that he was in Kobe long enough to receive anything like an instructor's license, though.

By the time Barton-Wright returned to London and founded Bartitsu, he seems to have already begun to blend the various jiujitsu forms he'd learned in Japan and these were further augmented when he arranged with Kano to have two young Japanese jiujitsuka - Yukio Tani and Sadekazu Uyenishi - travel over to England to work as instructors at his Bartitsu Club in London's Soho district. They also competed in mixed-styles contests against wrestlers representing various European styles.

Either way, the concept of specific ryu-ha etc. never really penetrated the early English jiujitsu scene - to them, it was all just jiujitsu.

Cheers,

Tony

[john_lord_b3]

Again, thanks for the explanation, Wolf sensei. I am sure the rest of the world will be thrilled.. an Englishman studied SFR long before Takamatsu sensei.. that would have been unthinkable just a decade ago!

[George Kohler]

The SFR studied by Barton-Wright is not the same ryuha as what Takamatsu Sensei studied. At least that is what the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten says.

The one Barton-Wright studied is called Shinden Fudo-ryu Kenpo. The one Takamatsu Sensei was associated with was SFR dakentaijutsu and SFR taijutsu (jutaijutsu).

[john_lord_b3]

Och, same name, different line. OK then.

[Shinobi]

Och, same name, different line. OK then.

No, same name, different art. If it was the same line it would be the same art just a different branch. Further down the branch it goes though arguably it could be a different art also so keep that in mind as well.

SFR daken is related to SFR tai(jutai) threw Toda Shinryuken, before him they were separate arts.

SFR kenpo has no relation to Toda-den/Takamatsu-den at all.

[Tony Wolf]

Does anyone has any further information on the SFR Kempo style of Terajima Kunichiro of Kobe? Aside from general interest, we (the Bartitsu Society) have been trying to trace the lineage of the various techniques Barton-Wright detailed in his c1900 magazine articles on self defence.

Cheers,

Tony

[smacktap]

wow this is amazing that Barton-Wright studied SFR before Takamatsu, does this mean we have records of a more "Pure" version of SFR available in the Western World?

[George Kohler]

does this mean we have records of a more "Pure" version of SFR available in the Western World?

No, since both schools are not even related.

[George Kohler]

Does anyone has any further information on the SFR Kempo style of Terajima Kunichiro of Kobe?

Other than the small section about it in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten there is one article about Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu and Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo in the magazine Hiden Bujutsu. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of it.

[Shinobi]

Does anyone has any further information on the SFR Kempo style of Terajima Kunichiro of Kobe?

I have compiled as much as I can and will let you know when its done and send it to you guys of the Bartitsu Society since it matters more to you then us in the Takamatsu-den.



Other than the small section about it in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten there is one article about Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu and Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo in the magazine Hiden Bujutsu. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of it.


Its 3 issues of Hiden Bujutsu mag, April of 1999, May 1999 and June 1999.

When I get a book scanner I’ll make copies for those interested. I’m currently typing up the articles in kanji/romaji and maybe we can find someone to translate it.

1st article is pretty long talking a lot about the history between SFR kenpo and Mabuni Kenwa (founder of Shito-ryu karate) but also goes further into depth. One part explaining the differences between SFR kenpo, SFR daken and SFR tai.

2nd and 3rd articles goes into the kata of SFR kenpo with some basic photos of Kaminaga Shigemi demonstrating. He breaks down the mokuroku sections and makimono and lists some of the kata and how many there are in each level, etc.

It appears from the pictures that it is a kenpo style that is related to jujutsu like the hade in Takenouchi-ryu or the kenpo in Araki-ryu. Nothing looks like Okinawan kenpo to me.

What influence or modifications Mabuni made from his Okinawan background I have no idea and to me is the mystery if the style still retains its jujutsu roots or has been “bastardized”.

[Tony Wolf]

Thanks, we'll look forward to that, especially to comparing the SFR Kempo kata with Barton-Wright's published material.

FWIW, the jiujitsu aspect of early (c. 1899-1900) Bartitsu looks like solid, basic ko-ryu; some atemi-waza (headbutts, thumbs to the trachea, backfist strikes etc.) and takedowns via twisting the neck, locking the elbow and tripping.

As far as we know, at the time Barton-Wright took his pictures of jiujitsu kata in Japan he had not yet studied at the Kodokan, so this was most likely Shinden-Fudo Ryu and/or Tenjin-Shinyo Ryu. It doesn't resemble the early judo that was introduced to the Bartitsu curriculum after Yukio Tani and Sadekazu Uyenishi arrived in London; IMO Professor Kano sent them with the specific intention of establishing judo as a Western-style sport, but Tani and Uyenishi seem to have enjoyed their status as "free agents" and "official" Kodokan judo didn't really take root in England until Gunji Koizumi set up the London Budokwai dojo, two teaching generations after Barton-Wright, Tani and Uyenishi.

Cheers,

Tony

[George Kohler]

It should also be noted that there are at least two lines from Mabuni. One was to the founder of Tani-ha Shito-ryu and the other is through Ueno Takashi Sensei.

[john_lord_b3]

Tani-Ha Shito-ryu... that would be Tani Chojiro sensei. Other Shito-ryu practitioner with Jujutsu licenses are Iwata Manzo sensei (Shito-Kai) who received a Menkyo in Nanban Satto-ryu Kenpo from ( (: dodging a shuriken (: ) Fujita Seiko.

Shito-ryu people are known for their open-mindedness to learn many styles. Sakagami Ryuzo sensei (Itosu-kai) is also a Kyoshi in Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. Kuniba Shogo sensei (Kuniba-Ha Goshindo) had menkyo in Mugai-ryu and high Dan ranks in Aikido.