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Liam Cognet
21st June 2007, 00:39
Years ago, when I practiced Shito Ryu karate, I was taught a sai kata which was basicly BassaiDai with sai.

Has anyone hear of this being taught elsewhere? Using weapons to do existing emptyhand kata sounds rather unorthodox, but thats the way we learned sai.

armanox
21st June 2007, 04:04
I'm not familiar with any sai kata meeting that description. Many instructors, lacking knowledge of sai/tonfa/kama katas, take open handed kata (usually a Pinan/Heinan) and add the weapon into them. I'll ask around and post what I find out.

Liam Cognet
21st June 2007, 06:15
So I look on youtube and found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqhBA7OxKHI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_CLX5-0WFY

Seems it's not just me.

Anypop, I havent't trained in sai since my Shito Ryu days (I do Goju Ryu now).

shoshinkan
21st June 2007, 08:38
you may find the research and practice of this group rather interesting -

http://www.kodoryu.com/

whilst I am not a member of their group I do train on occasion with them and have found them to be excellent karateka with very well researched and interesting ideas on karate.

Simon Keegan
21st June 2007, 09:54
Bassai Dai works well with Sai and equally well with Tonfa. I teach the following weapons with Shotokan Kata:

Heian Shodan (Pinan Nidan): Jo, Bo, Sai
Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan): Jo, Bo, Nunchaku
Heian Sandan: Nunchaku
Heian Yondan: Sai, Dip Dao (Chinese Butterfly Knives)
Heian Godan: Bo
Tekki Shodan: Tonfa, Jo
Bassai Dai: Sai, Tonfa
Jutte: Bo
Empi: Tonfa
Wankan: Sai

Learning Kobudo applications as well as exploring empty handed Bunkai/Oyo keeps the kata interesting for students. Heian Godan is fantastic with a Rokushaku Bo and Heian Sandan works really well with Nunchaku.

CEB
21st June 2007, 16:42
Oh boy. ........ :)

CEB
21st June 2007, 16:55
Years ago, when I practiced Shito Ryu karate, I was taught a sai kata which was basicly BassaiDai with sai.

Has anyone hear of this being taught elsewhere? Using weapons to do existing emptyhand kata sounds rather unorthodox, but thats the way we learned sai.

How did this teach you sai? Just curious.

Liam Cognet
21st June 2007, 23:06
We didn't just do Basai Dai, we also did drills where a person with a bo would do pre-arranged attacks and the person with sai would block the attacks and counter.

sauzin
22nd June 2007, 00:44
I am not a big proponent of doing empty hand kata with weapons. The value of weapons in my mind lies in their unique properties, which are best practiced with unique kata that make the greatest use of these properties.

I'm sure there is benefit to using weapons with empty handed kata, but not enough to make it worth while in my opinion. Why limit a weapon's practice to a pattern designed to the strengths of empty handed fighting when you can practice kata and techniques made solely for that weapon and with a pattern that takes full advantage of it's strengths?

I understand that some do this to learn more about the empty handed kata. I would think thier time would be better spent practicing new empty handed uses for the techniques rather then practicing empty handed techniques with a weapon they weren't designed to be used with. Changing the kata to meet the weapons design you say? Why not make a new kata then and face less limitations in tailoring it to the weapon's use?

Liam Cognet
22nd June 2007, 06:40
Exactly. It seemed to be a weird practice to me for the resons stated above...that's why I was wondering if anyone else actualy did the same thing.

I was just curious, but the previous post seems to have answered my question.

Duanew
22nd June 2007, 12:21
So let me get this straight. You learn an empty hand kata with a weapon in your hand........So because someone doesn't know a sai kata-thus next to nothing or nothing about the sai they put a weapon in the hands of a kata they do know. Got any problems with the transmission (or lack of ) knowledge with this one?
Reminds me of my open tournament days when anybody and their brother would make up some silly kata with little or no knowledge of the techniques or basics for a weapon. Here let me hang onto these kama while I do a series of jumpy-spinny-tornado-hurricane-tsunami kicks and then add in some "cool" moves I've seen in a movie and now I can enter the weapons division . And now (god help us) XMA-Xtreme Moronic Acrobats.
Or the Numchuks expert who is really good at using their body as a platform for spinning the "chockus" without the faintest idea of how or what the thing is actually used for.
To quote Charlie Brown, "AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!"
I will be in my cave working on combining Naihanchi kata with a numchuk, spear, thowing star kata.

Duane Wolfe

CEB
22nd June 2007, 15:02
We didn't just do Basai Dai, we also did drills where a person with a bo would do pre-arranged attacks and the person with sai would block the attacks and counter.

How did your mechanics for a jodan uke differ with sai vs without sai? How did your mechanics for tsuki with sai differ from seiken tsuki?

Where there any differences? If not then there are problems. What you were doing wasn't Ryukyu kobudo it would have severe disinformation because they do not work the same.

CEB
22nd June 2007, 15:07
...
I'm sure there is benefit to using weapons with empty handed kata, but not enough to make it worth while in my opinion. Why limit a weapon's practice to a pattern designed to the strengths of empty handed fighting when you can practice kata and techniques made solely for that weapon and with a pattern that takes full advantage of it's strengths?
....
No this is bad because Kobudo kihon is not Karate kihon. Your weapon's practice will probably be wrong. With the exception of chizikunbo, tekko or perhaps techu....doing empty hand kata with weapons is worthless at best and at its worst dangerous.

Simon Keegan
22nd June 2007, 16:43
Ok, let's take an easy one. Heian Shodan with Sai...

Lower Parry and Thrust

Turn

Lower Parry and hammer strike

Turn

Lower Parry and rising strike/block

These techniques are as well suited to Kobudo as they are to Karate.

Let's take another one:

Heian Godan with Bo.

Block with the left hand (left portion of the staff)

Reverse strike with the right (strike with right portion of staff)

Step up with the left hand in Mizuno Naguri No Kamae (the staff is now held vertically)

Repeat on the opposite side.

Morotte Uke (the left fist is near the right forearm as usual but as you are holding the staff the "eyes" of the "fists" must be alligned.

And so on...

If the correct weapon is chosen for the kata and appropriate applications chosen there is no inherant danger.

But to each his own. Let's play nice.

CEB
22nd June 2007, 17:10
What is not nice???

Heian Shodan has Jodan uke. How do you apply this?

Mitch Saret
22nd June 2007, 19:58
For learning a weapon one should never attempt to learn the weapon by using an empty hand form. One should study and practice the kihon of the weapon, the history of the weapon, and the applications as well as the kata of the weapon.

That being said, I was taught that you could ADAPT empty hand kata to work with the basic Okinawan weapons. The idea is to not lose the integrity of the weapon when translating it into the empty hand form. In order to do this you must first be thoroughly familiar and competent with both the weapon you wish to use as well as the empty hand kata you wish to use. This is definitely not something that can be done by someone with minimal training.

Does this exercise have value? I believe that is up to the individual.

Simon Keegan
22nd June 2007, 23:48
I agree with this chap. Spot on.

CEB
26th June 2007, 18:02
For learning a weapon one should never attempt to learn the weapon by using an empty hand form. One should study and practice the kihon of the weapon, the history of the weapon, and the applications as well as the kata of the weapon.

That being said, I was taught that you could ADAPT empty hand kata to work with the basic Okinawan weapons. The idea is to not lose the integrity of the weapon when translating it into the empty hand form. In order to do this you must first be thoroughly familiar and competent with both the weapon you wish to use as well as the empty hand kata you wish to use. This is definitely not something that can be done by someone with minimal training.

Does this exercise have value? I believe that is up to the individual.

Yes Mitch. That sounds good but if someone is adapting empty hand kata for weapon practice it is probably because they have no grounding in Ryukyu Kobudo proper. If they did they would know weapon kata and would not need to do create junk like this. How do your learn the kihon of the weapon, the history of the weapon, and the applications the weapon in Ryukyu Kobudo? .... Through the kata of Ryukyu Kobudo.

Sai is a good example. If you adapt empty hand kata for the use of the sai without knowledge of the weapon's kihon it doesn't work. I asked the dude that reccomended this practice to explain to me something as simple as the Jodan Uke from Heian Shodan. Too bad he didn't I would like to have known how approached this.

There are two approaches in Ryukyu kobudo to deal with the jodan in saijutsu. Both take in to consideration the superior leverage of the bo. Doing Karate kihon does not work. You will lose the weapon or else wind up on your head.

We talked about this Neo-Kobudo junk 5 years ago, there abouts. Too bad all that stuff was pre-crash.

Karate people should not teach stuff they do not know.

Liam Cognet
26th June 2007, 23:25
Why is kobudo always associated with karate? Most people who practice kobudo also practice karate. There must be some link or crossover between the two. It maybe just that they are both Okinawan.

Mitch Saret
27th June 2007, 18:45
Ed,

I totally agree with you in where you learn the kobudo kihon. I also agree that you really cannot thow a weapon into an empty hand form and keep the form pure. It's impossible. However, as an advanced exercise, I have my upper ranks see if they adapt an empty hand form to be used with a weapon they have learned. This is to see if they truly understand the weapon. We try out what they have developed against a bo and a bokken. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. It keeps things interesting and can be a great learning experience.

TimJurgens
5th July 2007, 15:45
In open hand kata you only have your body to work with. The dynamics of the major muscle groups, hip torque, and tanden, along with proper timing and breathing all synergystically form some explosive techniques. People spend years learning how to get both halve of the body to work together naturally and smoothly.

Weapons also have a center and it has to be in synergy just like the body is as described above. If you don't know how to use a weapon then you are probably just pushing around a bit of iron or wood.

Imagine if you will a totally untrained person strining together a bunch of "moves" in a sequence that was actually symetrical, say an H pattern. Would that be Karate? I say no. Nor would it be Kungfu or Ballet or ice skating or tap dancing.

Case in point, the bo does not derive its energy by pushing on it. You put energy into it by attuning its center to your body's center and then through your body shifting turn it about its center by PULLING on it. If you feel like you are doing a karate punch when you are striking with your Bo then you don't know how to use the weapon.

I know because I came from a school that pushed weapons around in a pattern. I did that for several years before I met the teachers at the Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinko Kai in Tomigusuku Okinawa. I was in awe and shock.

If you see someone doing a kata and you get the impression that you could do it too just by grabbing a weapon and doing a form you allready know, then go and find someone else.

Your teacher should make you question your ability to ever attain a reasonable level, not by being a jerk but by making your jaw drop and by making you wonder if human beings can actually do that.

If you are not getting those vibes then keep looking.

There is a code of ethics in information security circles. One of the tenets of the code is "only advise on areas where you have expertiese". I wish martial artists would abide by that more. How many people who are good Karateka suddenly think they are proficient in teaching Judo, or Kendo, or Iaido, or Kyudo, or Jujitsu, or Aikido, or Nippon Bunka, or Nihongo, or Shodo, or Sado, or God forbid Kobudo? Too many. Dentists don't do pastic surgery and Michael Jordan was only so so at baseball. Think about it.

Kobudo is a beautiful and separate art from Karate.

Harlan
5th July 2007, 16:09
Nice post. :)


Case in point, the bo does not derive its energy by pushing on it. You put energy into it by attuning its center to your body's center and then through your body shifting turn it about its center by PULLING on it. If you feel like you are doing a karate punch when you are striking with your Bo then you don't know how to use the weapon.

Your teacher should make you question your ability to ever attain a reasonable level, not by being a jerk but by making your jaw drop and by making you wonder if human beings can actually do that.

If you are not getting those vibes then keep looking.

Kobudo is a beautiful and separate art from Karate.

Simon Keegan
5th July 2007, 18:09
Case in point, the bo does not derive its energy by pushing on it. You put energy into it by attuning its center to your body's center and then through your body shifting turn it about its center by PULLING on it. If you feel like you are doing a karate punch when you are striking with your Bo then you don't know how to use the weapon.

If you think a Karate punch feels like a push then you don't know how to punch.

When one hand punches does the other not pull back?

TheBadger
5th July 2007, 20:11
Ok, let's take an easy one. Heian Shodan with Sai...

Lower Parry and Thrust

Turn

Lower Parry and hammer strike

Turn

Lower Parry and rising strike/block




As I see it, the lower parry, thrust and rising blocks are not done in the same manner with sai in your hand. Lower block = You have to roll your forearm further to place the sai against the outside of your forearm. Thrust = You have to understand how to hold the sai and strike with it. Rising block = Again weapon against forearm and (usually) a drop to hook the attack. I have no idea how you would do a hammerfist (maybe a flip). All of these things can be modified if you have someone who understands the sai. The danger is when someone does not know how to modify the techniques and does them like karate techniques.

TheBadger
5th July 2007, 20:20
If you think a Karate punch feels like a push then you don't know how to punch.

When one hand punches does the other not pull back?

Yes there is hikite "pull hand" but the hikite of a punch cannot be compared with the pulling hand of the bo.

Empty hand and weapon movements can look similar, but they are very different in application, body connection, focus, etc. in many cases.

Simon Keegan
5th July 2007, 20:34
Yes. Any time you do something as simple as hold an object it changes the dynamic. I remember when I first learnt Tai Chi sword. I'd spent ages trying to learn to be relaxed in the empty handed forms and as soon as I picked up the Jian I found I was tensing up. Even holding the Jian is a very loose way (just tight enough to not drop it) tightened the forearm muscles for example.

Of course a lower level parry with a Bo cannot be done in the same way as an empty handed Gedan Barai because, well you're holding a flipping big piece of wood for starters... But there's no reason why you can't use the sequence of a Karate kata as a basis for a weapons form as long as you understand how to change things. For example a Hikite with Sai would result in a very painful jab in the floating rib with a rather pointy piece of metal. And we wouldn't want that...

Anyway, we all take our own paths. Personally I enjoy practising Karate kata both empty handed and with select weapons. It may not suit you, it may not be "traditional" but I and my students and training partners find benefit in it.

So to each his/her own.

Liam Cognet
5th July 2007, 23:35
Kobudo is a beautiful and separate art from Karate.

Thanks Tim, but I would like to re-ask my earlier question:


Why is kobudo always associated with karate?

Shikiyanaka
6th July 2007, 08:46
Hi,

just a note.

Nagamine Takayoshi Soke of Matsubayashi-ryu taught some Saijutsu-Kata last year here in Germany. After Kihon practices - where a certain amount of I think 6 or 7 main techniques were taught detailed - he and we did Fukyu-gata with Sai. The Kata was adapted for Sai, the moves modified. He encouraged students to apply the Sai basics to Karate Kata, including necessary modifications and to also to incorporate and combine techniques quite liberally, though somewhat fitting.

Now, they have Sai Kata in Matsubayashi-ryu. So why should one do this? I think this kind of approach is just meant as a help for using, studying and Sai-techniques.

BTW: I don't train Fukuy with Sai. I have just so many other things to do... :)

Simon Keegan
6th July 2007, 10:45
Thanks Tim, but I would like to re-ask my earlier question:

The subject is one of some confusion. It is believed that there was a weapons ban in Okinawa from the 1400s and so the Okinawans did not have weapons like swords etc. Napolean was said to have described an island off Japan where the natives had no weapons.

At certain times in its history Okinawa paid dues to both China and Japan and the Okinawan rulers were puppets to the Japanese of Satsuma.

Because the Okinawans had no weapons such as swords and wore no armour they studied empty handed fighting arts from various sources which became Karate.

The myth is that the Okinawans adapted farming implements into weapons. The fairytale goes that the kama was for cutting rice, the Nunchaku was for crushing seeds, the Tonfa was the handle off a rice grinder and I guess the Bo was a rake handle or something. I think one of the weapons was supposed to have been something to do with a horse's bridle as well.

If this is correct the reason why Karate and Kobudo are linked is that because, historically the Okinawans "made do" with makeshift weapons and empty handed fighting.

I don't think this theory is given much credence these days however since these weapons had already existed in China and to a lesser extent, Japan. Chinese styles such as Mok Gar use weapons like the Nunchaku, Sai (and everybody uses a Bo) and the Sai is like the Japanese Jutte.

Some of the earliest Okinawan Karate practitioners like Hama Higa, Takahara Peichin and Tode Sakugawa were known for their Kobudo but also considered founding fathers of Karate.

The other explanation is that Soken Matsumura studied weapons when he learnt Jigen Ryu in Japan.

One other theory revolves around the idea that Takahara, his student Sakugawa, his student Matsumura and his student Itosu were all employed by the King of Okinawa (Sho Taimu or something) and guarded Shuri castle with these weapons.

So you can take the theory that Kobudo came from China, Japan, farming implements of whatever but whichever way you look at it the reason Karate and Kobudo are practised together is because historically they were Budo siblings.

Trevor Johnson
6th July 2007, 17:09
If this is correct the reason why Karate and Kobudo are linked is that because, historically the Okinawans "made do" with makeshift weapons and empty handed fighting.

I don't think this theory is given much credence these days however since these weapons had already existed in China and to a lesser extent, Japan. Chinese styles such as Mok Gar use weapons like the Nunchaku, Sai (and everybody uses a Bo) and the Sai is like the Japanese Jutte.

The chinese had "two-sword" men, according to Harry Cook, who's managed to find some illustrations of them. Their two swords were basically long sai, as far as he can tell. The jutte seems to have a different lineage than the sai, oddly enough.

He's also found sai in collections of Chinese weaponry in England, though that could possibly be due to mislabeling on the part of the curators...

TimJurgens
6th July 2007, 17:39
Thanks Tim, but I would like to re-ask my earlier question: Why is Karate always associated with kobudo?

Simple answer it isn't _always_ associated with Kobudo. I have a student who did Kung fu in Taiwan and never did Karate who passed his shodan, another who was a Wing Chung teacher. They both do just fine.

Most kobudo-ka are proficient karate-ka but not all. We have a fellow from the PI at our hombu who is a 3rd Dan in Kobudo but only did escrima and Aikido.

Some things transfer concept wise. Tanden, use of hips, center, distance, yoriashi or sliding with techniques, the stances are all very similar or the same. It doesn't mean that the skills transfer automatically. There are no short cuts. If you want to be good at Kobudo, you have to find someone that makes you go wow, and then you have to train hard and long. Dam near everything is counter intuitive with weapons.

For the person who stated that if your karate punch feels like a push it is wrong, I agree. A lot is going on in a Karate punch and I could easily spend 500 words just on that. If your strike with a bo feels like a Karate punch it is wrong. Plain and simple. The shomen uchi is a pull and a body repositioning. If you push out with the top hand you over balance the center of the bo and it becomes dead in your grip and then distrubs your ballance. To correct your ballance you will compensate by unconciously taking power away from the strike. If you pull the bo actually speeds up. This is based on physics. The pull takes advantage of the lower lever arm from the center down, the tip will have additional torque as it tries to keep up with the turn around the center. This force is equal to the mass of the weapon times tangenital acceleration which is velocity squared divided by the radius. Note that the radius is on the bottom of the equation. The smaller it is the larger the final outcome. If you push however the pivot point is no longer the center. It is actually closer to the bottom hand.

If you don't believe me then please try to find someone compitent like Doug Dalton or Dometrich Sensei and train with them. Somethings just need to be seen.

To try to put this into perspective, if you did Kusanku with a shinken it woudn't be a koryu sword art, and you would probably have a few cuts if you weren't lucky.

I saw a guy do a stungun kata once. F-ing silly....the same guy then did what he claimed was a chinese sword kata, to music, using a fake katana, and the form featured some really silly moves like rolling the sword around his neck.

Compared to that I would much prefer to see Pinan Godan done with Tekko or sai. But compared to that I would probably prefer walking across hot coals. I was half tempted to slap him silly on the stage, and anyone that knows me knows I am a nice and non violent fellow!

One more comment. The hikite with the sai is strong, and we do lay the sai flat. So how do we avoid getting the pointy bit in the floating ribs, well carefully. That and going a little more circular. That is another reason why the punch with the sai is different than a Karate punch. Ignoring the simple weight difference and difference in impulse the path of travel with the sai needs to be more circular on both the punch and the hikite. For the punch it is to ensure that the long central truncheon is on the outside of the forearm, providing coverage and also support to the wrist because of the longer point of contact against the outside of the arm. This is important when hitting something solid. We go flat on the pull so that when the next punch comes there is 180 degrees of rotation in the arm instead of just 90. That makes it easier for the central tang to be on the outside of the forearm.

These small details and many many more make up the art. The kata just string the technique together. So even if you were to get a kata such as Chickenshita no Sai down, if you did not have a good teacher showing you how to use the sai you would just be wasting your time.

I trained under Kise Sensei from 1987 to 1989 and we did some sai Kata. Kise Sensei is a great Karate ka and he had two sai kata we were learning. He also had bo Kata and a Kama kata. As soon as I saw the Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinko Kai Sensei doing Kobudo I ditched the kata I knew strapped on a white belt and never looked back. There is that much difference between a good Karate teacher doing some weapons stuff with his Karate and a full on Kobudo Sensei doing Kobudo.

TimJurgens
6th July 2007, 18:05
The subject is one of some confusion. It is believed that there was a weapons ban in Okinawa from the 1400s and so the Okinawans did not have weapons like swords etc. Napolean was said to have described an island off Japan where the natives had no weapons.

At certain times in its history Okinawa paid dues to both China and Japan and the Okinawan rulers were puppets to the Japanese of Satsuma.

Because the Okinawans had no weapons such as swords and wore no armour they studied empty handed fighting arts from various sources which became Karate.

The myth is that the Okinawans adapted farming implements into weapons. The fairytale goes that the kama was for cutting rice, the Nunchaku was for crushing seeds, the Tonfa was the handle off a rice grinder and I guess the Bo was a rake handle or something. I think one of the weapons was supposed to have been something to do with a horse's bridle as well.

If this is correct the reason why Karate and Kobudo are linked is that because, historically the Okinawans "made do" with makeshift weapons and empty handed fighting.

I don't think this theory is given much credence these days however since these weapons had already existed in China and to a lesser extent, Japan. Chinese styles such as Mok Gar use weapons like the Nunchaku, Sai (and everybody uses a Bo) and the Sai is like the Japanese Jutte.

Some of the earliest Okinawan Karate practitioners like Hama Higa, Takahara Peichin and Tode Sakugawa were known for their Kobudo but also considered founding fathers of Karate.

The other explanation is that Soken Matsumura studied weapons when he learnt Jigen Ryu in Japan.

One other theory revolves around the idea that Takahara, his student Sakugawa, his student Matsumura and his student Itosu were all employed by the King of Okinawa (Sho Taimu or something) and guarded Shuri castle with these weapons.

So you can take the theory that Kobudo came from China, Japan, farming implements of whatever but whichever way you look at it the reason Karate and Kobudo are practised together is because historically they were Budo siblings.

Dude sorry to keep pinging on you, I am sure you are a nice fellow and a dedicated Karateka, but you have touched on a nerve I have about history. Most professional organizations have a code of ethics, and in that code is usually a prohibition against doing something a member is not qualified for. As an example an electrical engineer will not build a bridge unless he is also a civil engineer. Yet in Karate many people pass off history lessons as if they were formally trained in asian culture and history. I have taken one university class in Japanese culture. I have taken four semesters of language, I am married to an Okinawan, and I have live in Japan for a total of 16 years now. I am not a historian but I know the difference from the prepottery period, the Joman period, the Yaoi period, kofun period, Asukan period, Nara period, Heian period, Kamakura period, Muramachi period, Azuchi Momoyama period, Edo period, Meiji, Taisho, Showa, and Heisei. I also know that Napoleon live from 1769 to 1821 and had nothing to do with the 1400's. He did receive comments back about the Loo Choo, and they were under Satsuma influence to not have swords.

The sai is a weapon that came from China. Rice is not a major crop in Okinawa, sugar cane and pinaple are. Kama did not cut rice but they cut sugarcane. Contact between the Chinese and the Ryukyu Kingdom is well documented. Many weapons certainly came from that connection. Some are local to Okinawa. Some like the Nunchaku are local and used differently than they are in China where the exact same weapon may have developed independantly. Netwon and Leibneitz both came up with Calculus independentally within a short period of each other so I am sure a couple of roughnecks came up with something less complicated like putting some rope between some bashing sticks. Farm implements were used, but farmers did not weaponize them, warriors did. Farmers generally spend their time toiling on their farms. If they spend several hours going through military drills they get kicked off their land and starve.

Sorry for tiraide but please before you state a fact please consider that if wrong information is repeated enough times people believe it is fact. Passing on what you have read on a blog or heard from friends is not proper historical discipline.

Sorry to be so preachy and best of luck in your training.

If you are interested in a historical book I see one is for sale from Hokama Sensei as translated by Joe Swift. I have not read it but I understand Hokama Sensei is a dedicated historian.

Mitch Saret
6th July 2007, 19:04
WOW! And I thought sai came from Egypt where Nefertiri and Acksa Nomun were trained in them!

Sorry, The Mummy Returns has been on TV recently! :D

Simon Keegan
6th July 2007, 22:12
[QUOTE=TimJurgens]Dude sorry to keep pinging on you, I am sure you are a nice fellow and a dedicated Karateka, but you have touched on a nerve I have about history. QUOTE]

Dear Pinger Dude

I have plenty of history books on my shelves which I could have opened and cited precise dates and references, but call me lazy I decided to write "off the top of my head" to try and help with somebody's enquiry.

I'm fully aware Napolean wasn't around in 1400. Waterloo is a favourite period in history of mine, I was meerly dropping a few anecdotes.

I was quite careful not to state what I was saying was the definative answer. I was at pains to point out that much of what I was relaying was folklore or "Tatemae". You will note the following expressions:

"The subject is one of some confusion..."
"It is believed..."
"Was said to have..."
"The myth is that the Okinawans adapted farming implements..."
"The fairytale goes..."
"I think one of the weapons..."
"If this is correct..."

And finally:
"I don't think this theory is given much credence these days however since these weapons had already existed in China and to a lesser extent, Japan"

I was merely pointed out to the original poster that there are theories about a weapon ban, makeshift farm implements (which is not universally subscribed to) but whichever way you approach it what I was trying to get across is that Karate and Kobudo are like toast and jam.


I'm sure there are those much more qualified than I to answer the question, but nobody was coming forward so I thought I would offer a little help with the caveat that I'm sat on my armchair with the laptop on my knee and my bookcase is at least nine feet away...

No hard feelings "dude"

TimJurgens
7th July 2007, 02:40
Simeon,

I am sure you have more than a passing interest in history, and know more facts and dates than many, as do I. Neither of us however are historians. A real historian would do more than just read a few books. He would research the credibility of the author, read the work critically, research counter views and possibly do independent field work looking for solid fact. There are many intriguing techniques in the field that experts use to extrapolate data and forward theories. These techniques include analysis of language patterns, trends in writing also know as preponderence of texts method, physical field work, and recently DNA mapping.

Again I am sure you were trying to add some reply to a question in the conversation and I conceed your point that you qualified your answers so as not to make them pure statements of fact. It is clear that you were trying to help, but you still leave someone who read your post with the impression that Kama were used to cut rice. Here is a clear example of where a professional historian would be able to help. Field work, litterally and figuratively in this case, shows that Kama are not extensively used in the production of rice in Okinawa. Okinawa is better suited for sugar cane, pinaple, and sweet potato which was imported from South America. While rice was grown in Okinawa for a period of time, it was abandoned because soil conditions and lack of fresh water made trading for rice a better option.

Rice was introduced to mainland Japan during the Yaoi period in the Kyushu area from the Yangtze area of China. Scientists used DNA analysis of the rice strains in Korea, Japan and Northern and Southern China to establish this fact, displacing an earlier theory that had people believing rice was introduced through Korea.

When Nakamine Sensei wrote his history book he stated that Saukgawa Sensei died in China. Nakuhodo Sensei who is a decendent of the Sakugawa lineage has access to the family tomb. When Nakuhodo Sensei opened the family urn it was clearly inscribed with the date of Sakugawa Sensei's internment, proving that Saukgawa Sensei passed away in Okinawa not China.

These are both examples of good historical work. You can see the contrast between what passes in our forums where fairly well read karateka are accepted as expert and what is expected in solid academics. I rail on this pont more for the larger audience and not to single you out. I have seen people on National Geographic Television of all shows passing on information about how people used to spin their bo to deflect arrows! This was just accepted as fact! I would like to have the fellow try that technique as I shot arrows at him for some field research.

I would like people to expect more from their colleagues in this forum, because it is clear professional historical societies don't expect much from us.


Shorinryu 5th Dan Shihan
Ryukyu Kobudo 4th Dan Shidoin
Aikido Shodan
Not a Historian

Simon Keegan
7th July 2007, 12:12
Thanks for the information, I did not know that information about the crops, I guess with all that fresh produce as well as the fresh fish it explains why Okinawans have a long life expectancy (according to a TV programme I watched about sushi and a book I read about Karate).

Best wishes

Simon Keegan

4th Dan Freestyle Karate (WKA)
3rd Dan Karatedo (IMAF)
2nd Dan Nihon Jujutsu (IMAF)
2nd Dan Shoshin Ryu Karate Jutsu (FEKO)
Brown Sash Yang Style Tai Chi
Not a historian (apart from 6th century Arthurian Britain)

TimJurgens
7th July 2007, 14:58
Simon,

Can I sign you up as a co-charter member of the Not a Historian Kaikan? ;-)

Fresh fish, fresh air, but most importantly low stress is the key to the Okinawan longevity in my opinion. There are more people over 100 years of age per capita here than anywhere else.

Nyuck3X
7th July 2007, 17:50
I accept the idea that kama was not used to cut rice in Okinawa, but there
is no reason not to assume that it was not used to cut tall grass to clear a
field. It also should not imply that it (kama) was not used to cut rice in
countries where rice was farmed. IMO. :rolleyes:

TimJurgens
8th July 2007, 14:47
I accept the idea that kama was not used to cut rice in Okinawa, but there
is no reason not to assume that it was not used to cut tall grass to clear a
field. It also should not imply that it (kama) was not used to cut rice in
countries where rice was farmed. IMO. :rolleyes:

Kama are used to cut any number of variety of vegitation in Okinawa. Sugarcane is the primary crop and it is harvested by hand using kama.

The point here was to point out a commonly repeated falicy, that rice was in any way connected to the development of the Kama as a martial weapon. Does it make a big difference? No not really but it does point out that a lot of "facts" accepted at face value and passed on because they just seem to make sense are not true. Some karate teachers feel they need to fill a void of good historical context for their students and will often pass on anything they have heard or read or dreamed up as fact. As a result most of what is taught about Japanese culture and history to Karate students in the west is made up, off track, misunderstood, or just out in left field. It is far better to say you don't know something than to perpetuate poor information.

What I have been told by my local teachers is that the local warrior class adopted local tools to be weapons. Farmers don't suddenly wake up as trained military experts, and if they train to become one then they are no longer a farmer. There is also the issue of cast. There are strata in society that people were not encourage or allowed to cross.

Shikiyanaka
9th July 2007, 07:06
Ha, I found it: it was Noguni Sokan and from China! 100 Points for me!!! :p

Nyuck3X
9th July 2007, 19:47
Kama are used to cut any number of variety of vegitation in Okinawa. Sugarcane is the primary crop and it is harvested by hand using kama.

The point here was to point out a commonly repeated falicy, that rice was in any way connected to the development of the Kama as a martial weapon.

I agree with what you said, just clarifying that the kama was a farming impliment.

Thank-you for de-bunking another myth. :)

sauzin
12th July 2007, 01:23
No this is bad because Kobudo kihon is not Karate kihon. Your weapon's practice will probably be wrong. With the exception of chizikunbo, tekko or perhaps techu....doing empty hand kata with weapons is worthless at best and at its worst dangerous.


I completely agree. I was certainly not suggesting that someone make up kata. I was simply posing the argument that it would make more sense to make a weapon kata from scratch then it would to try and modify a empty handed kata for a weapon. Not that either would be good, really I'm talking about bad and worse.

-Paul Holsinger

Nobody
8th April 2008, 22:38
I am not a big proponent of doing empty hand kata with weapons. The value of weapons in my mind lies in their unique properties, which are best practiced with unique kata that make the greatest use of these properties.

I'm sure there is benefit to using weapons with empty handed kata, but not enough to make it worth while in my opinion. Why limit a weapon's practice to a pattern designed to the strengths of empty handed fighting when you can practice kata and techniques made solely for that weapon and with a pattern that takes full advantage of it's strengths?

I understand that some do this to learn more about the empty handed kata. I would think thier time would be better spent practicing new empty handed uses for the techniques rather then practicing empty handed techniques with a weapon they weren't designed to be used with. Changing the kata to meet the weapons design you say? Why not make a new kata then and face less limitations in tailoring it to the weapon's use?



I am inclined to agree with him on this one. Years ago, when younger and more energetic, I did my formal training in Seibukan shorin ryu, which in terms of empty hand is what I practice today. When I was there, they were teaching Wansu-sai and Passai-sai, and the last time I talked to any of them, they are now teaching Kusanku-kama and Chinto-kama. Frankly, this seems to me like a serious waste of time, or a case of someone not wanting to make the effort to try to learn the traditional weapons kata. I agree with the above poster that if you want to train with weapons, it makes more sense to practice forms designed to exploit the advantages of the weapon itself than to try to make the weapon conform to a form that was designed to exploit the advantages of the human body without the weapon itself being available. Even if you don't train under a teacher of traditional Okinawan kobudo, there are still plenty of videos out now with traditional kata on them, something that was not[/B] available when I was younger. If you want to train with weapons, practice techniques and forms that are designed for them, instead of adapting questionable efforts to combine empty hand and weapon tactics.

Robby Bray
12th April 2008, 22:13
I too agree. To practice an empty hand kata might be interesting to have a sai or another form of weapon in your hand and see how the kata works, but we can not be confused with the fact that the forms passed down to us that are kobudo forms are designed for that specific purpose. These techniques are best suited to generate power and place power at the end of the particular weapon of focus. An empty hand kata is not designed to place power at the terminal end of say a Tonfa, but at the end of a fist, elbow, foot, ect.

Robby Bray
13th April 2008, 03:16
In retrospect, I think that a person trained in kobudo who understands the mechanics of ryukyu kobudo only amplifies his or her karate on a scale that only the individual truley understands. These weapons themselves allow the practicing person to unlock ways of generating AND transmitting power to a specific focal point of interest. This is why I believe that it amplifies an individuals empty hand techniques. These opinions are soley mine but coming from a previous system of karate that had weapons in it, and then being introduced to a Okinawan Kobudo instructor that literally drops your jaw when you witness how much power he is capable of generating at any given moment makes practice what he does and never look back. 8 years later my karate, regardless of what style I practice, has a unique flavor to it that can only be linked to my Okinawan Kobudo instructor's fingerprint.

andy.m
13th April 2008, 23:06
I've been flicking through this thread and a couple of things come out .
1. Some styles of kobudo use emptyhand kata and some don't, hence the row.
2.Motoketsu Inoue at the Durham city Budosai of the early 1990's demonstrated a kihon kata or drill then a Karate kata with the same weapon followed by THE Kobudo kata for that weapon.
3.If it's all right for him why not Simon Keegan? Answer, Experience! He's just making it up as he goes along.
4.Get some experienced help. Contact Julian Mallalieu,the U.K. head of Fumio Demura's GENBU-KAI .He's only in Ashton-under-lyne, just outside Manchester.
Your's-Andy.M

Robby Bray
14th April 2008, 04:01
Just out of curiousty, which kobudo styles use empty hand kata? Mine does not, so I am just wondering which do. Our tekko kata is very similar to an empty hand kata but not the same.

Simon Keegan
14th April 2008, 15:12
If it's all right for him why not Simon Keegan? Answer, Experience! He's just making it up as he goes along.


I wouldn't say that, Andy, I may be guilty of some reverse engineering but it reflects what I have been taught. A lot of my recent Kobudo training has been with Reiner Parsons who graded to 6th Dan Karate and 3rd Dan Kobudo with Kokusai Budoin (IMAF) and trained in Japan in both Kobudo and Karate. Oh, and started his training (1974) with a certain Sensei Tony Christian. When Reiner graded me he asked to see my perform kata with weapons and empty handed. You may disagree with this but that's your prerogative and mine to agree.

I may note that your teacher Sensei Christian (a very nice man who I hold in high regard - and wish I'd trained with when I lived in Wigan) also regularly practices with the Sai as you know, as do his assistant instructors who teach in Robin Park, and in fact Sensei Christian was kind enough to give a demonstration of Okinawan weapons on a course I organised a couple of years ago.

But then I guess the difference is experience eh.

Granted some of my weapons training was in other styles unrelated to Karate (for instance Jamie Lee-Barron taught me to use the Jo as it was taught to him by Mike Finn who I understand studied with Shindo Muso Ryu teacher Master Shimazu - but I digress)... The point I am trying to make is that while I may not be the most experienced Kobudo exponent in the world, I have been taught to use various weapons - I have not just bought some Nunchaku and watched Game of Death. I've spent 10 years studying the Chinese sword as part of my Tai Chi study as well, for what it's worth (very little probably).

Not wishing to hijack this thread to defend my own credentials or lack thereof so if you'd like to discuss further Andy, please PM me. Or I'd be more than happy to discuss any Karate matters over a beer if you're ever in Manchester.

Regarding Demura - does not every single one of Demura's Kobudo books show that Kobudo weapons may be used to perform Karate techniques??? By the way, I've had students from Demura group come and train with me and haven't received any complaints.

Best wishes

Simon