Has Mas Oyama ever lost a fight?

[Moenstah]

First of all, I'd like to emphasize that it is not my intention to bash or discredit kyokushin karate in any way.

I'm just very curious if there is any documentation about Mas Oyama having ever lost a fight. The search function on this forum didn't yield any satisfying result, (or I've been searching poorly). After all; in the movie based on his life, Fighter in the Wind, Oyama did lose, but from whom? when?

If people like Cro Cop and Hoost lose, would Oyama be anything different?

Thank you guys!

[gwroy20]

Fighter in the Wind was based on a comic book which was extremely loosely based on the life of Mas Oyama.

There is no record of his having lost a fight that I am aware of.

-----
Roy Hubbard

[BudoYama]

Wado Ryu's Tatsuo Suzuki had a dojo in Japan. In his book he tells of a "Mr.O." who came into his dojo looking for a fight. Suzuki didnt think much of him and one of his 3rd Kyu students gave him a good kicking.

I know for a fact that "Mr.O." is Oyama because Suzuki mentioned this before in conversation before he published his book.
Apparently Oyama was so impressed with the 3rd Kyu he promised him that if he left Suzuki Sensei, Oyama would give the 3rd Kyu his black belt. Needless to say he stayed with Suzuki.

Joe Adams

[gwroy20]

I'd love to see some evidence of this.

[Garbach]

I'd love to see some evidence of this.

Agreed. Some evidence please.

[BudoYama]

I'm afraid the only 'evidence' I can give is to direct you to Suzuki's book, which can be bought from the "store" section of the WIKF website.

Or you could of course ask him...

[gwroy20]

What's the name of the book? I'd like to know when it was published. I don't understand why Mr. Suzuki would not have made the identity of this "Mr. O" public.

Judging from your description, this event would have been sometime after Oyama's mountain training because it wasn't until after this point that he began to teach karate. I find it extremely suspect that a 3rd kyu or a 5th dan would have been able to do this at this time. I'm unable to believe that this feat was accomplished in front of witnesses and has to this day not ever been mentioned by anyone except for one man who 'mentioned' it to you.

[BudoYama]

The name of the book is "Suzuki: Fullness of Life in Karate" which can be found here:
http://www.wikfusa.com/Sales/sales.html

Why would Suzuki sensei need to lie? Not only would it go against what he stands for, but theres no need for it. The great thing about Suzuki is that he is 100% honest. If he says something then he knows it - mainly because he was there. Its not as though he does it for the reputation either is it? He's one of the greatest karate masters in the world. And its not to make him sound important either as he is not afraid of giving credit to someone. He gave a glowing report on a demonstration given by Sokaku Takeda saying he was one of the best martial artists he had ever seen and was completely amazed by his skill.
Suzuki also recounted an incident with a Mr.K who I wont name here. I think he kept the full name because although he wanted to tell the truth, he did not want to damage their reputation. The same with the Mr.K. Other incidents where he talks of people normally or says how good they are he gives their full name of course.

[Garbach]

Joe,

We have no desire to discredit or doubt Suzuki sensei’s ability’s or integrity. But the statement does raise some questions. In my humble opinion both sides of the story are colored by the background of the respondents, which can be considered as only natural. I for one would love to get my hands on some impartial evidence that would disprove or acknowledge the statement. Anyone else?

[BudoYama]

Thanks for the reply Garbach.

I too would love some 'hard' evidence. But in what form? I hardly expect a clip of the fight to appear on YouTube next week.

If it is a case who you believe, I for one am totally behind Suzuki Sensei. One of the greatest martial artists I have seen and as I have said he has no reason to lie.

Everyone else of course can form their own opinions a they will.

[CEB]

Has Mas Oyama ever won a fight? Just curious if there is documentated evidence of that also.

[trevorg]

Wado Ryu's Tatsuo Suzuki had a dojo in Japan. In his book he tells of a "Mr.O." who came into his dojo looking for a fight. Suzuki didnt think much of him and one of his 3rd Kyu students gave him a good kicking.

I know for a fact that "Mr.O." is Oyama because Suzuki mentioned this before in conversation before he published his book.
Apparently Oyama was so impressed with the 3rd Kyu he promised him that if he left Suzuki Sensei, Oyama would give the 3rd Kyu his black belt. Needless to say he stayed with Suzuki.

Joe Adams

I really cant answer the main question but as I understand it Mas Oyama was born in 1923. T Suzuki was born in 1928. By 1940 Oyama was a 2nd dan and 3 years later was 4th dan.

T Suzuki apparently started karate at the YMCA under Mr Kimura in 1945 which would make him around 17 years of age when Oyama would have been 22.

The key question seems to be "when apparently did Oyama visit Suzuki's dojo?"

osu
Trevor

[johnst_nhb]

Has Mas Oyama ever won a fight? Just curious if there is documentated evidence of that also.

Someone should just email Jon Bluming and ask. I am sure he would say if he knew....

[Paul Steadman]

Hi All,

I don't think any karate master has ever lost a fight :-p Just like all Korean taekwondo masters are 7 times undefeated world/international champions :-p BTW my favourite tail is of Old Man Hisataka (Kori) of Shorinji-ryu karate-do who had reputedly defeated Junzo Sasamori utilising his muto-dori skills against Sasamori who was aremd wth a shinai!

Cheers,

[Moenstah]

Hi All,

I don't think any karate master has ever lost a fight :-p Just like all Korean taekwondo masters are 7 times undefeated world/international champions :-p BTW my favourite tail is of Old Man Hisataka (Kori) of Shorinji-ryu karate-do who had reputedly defeated Junzo Sasamori utilising his muto-dori skills against Sasamori who was aremd wth a shinai!

Cheers,

Paul,

You're absolutely right about the true karate masters, but I'm more interested in historical facts than in social dynamics ;-)

[john_lord_b3]

Isn't Oyama sensei a Dan holder in Judo as well? If he trained in Judo, I am sure he lost some Randori matches and won some matches, before he was a Dan holder. Even the great Yamashita (All Japan Champion multi-time) lost Randori matches before he became champion.

[gwroy20]

Well if we were counting sparring EVERYONE would have lost before. :)

[paul browne]

Hi,
I'm not a karateka so I hope no-one minds me pitching in here with a couple of observations. When talking about comparative grades it really is pretty meaningless unless your talking about a comparison within the same art/style.
One art might give out shodan within 18 months of good training, once the basics are competently learned, since the percieved wisdom is that until you reach that standard you don't know enough to really learn anything properly. Another might take five years to reach Shodan.
These grades would have been even more blurred in the early postwar years with people returning to training after long absence's during which they were 'self-taught'.
In short '3rd kyu' and '2nd dan' have meaning only in their own area. (unlike for examply Menkyo Kaiden or the like which are effectively certificates of complete mastery'

In the absence of an account of the actual exchange (which would likely still be 'blurred' due to student loyalty.....witness accounts of the Bruce Lee v. Wong Jack Man bought) the best one can do is look to the students these men produced and assess their abilities (both combat and social.....this is Budo after all)

Is Hisataka Kori the man who in a Shorinji Ryu book claims to have taught pretty much all the other masters their skills?
I seem to recall him claiming to have taught Doshin So all his striking skills (there's practically no similarity in application of movement that i can see)
and Hironori Ohtsuka the 'Nagashizuki' movement, a basis of Wado ryu that Ohtsuka sensei claimed he retained from Shinto Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu.
Interesting:)
regards
Paul

[Paul Steadman]

Hi Paul,

Yep, the very same! What Kori didn't mention is that he learned all these techniques, himself, from a reincarnation or avatar of Moses (just kidding). In "Essential Shorinji-ryu Karate," it states that the rokushiku-bo and bo-jutsu were supplanted on Okinawa by Mosses of Judeo-Christian-Islam fame, presumably on one of his world tour highlights, I dunno! I just couldn't get over the claim of defeating Junzo Sasamori-sensei armed with a shinai utilising muto-dori. The book also states he defeated old ma Naginata (I can't recall her name, but she was a naginata grand-master, and contemporary of Junzo and Kori) by utilising Happiken techniques (8 directional monkey fist).

Sorry for thread drift. Cheers,

[paul browne]

Hi Paul,
Actually that adds to the credibility of his account. After all, using his 'prophet parts the waters' rokushakubo technique getting from Okinawa to the mainland must have been cheap and easy ;)
Paul

[Moenstah]

Gentlemen, could you please keep it more on topic? ;-)

[paul browne]

Sorry Remi,
I just couldn't resist:)
To return to the topic in question, or at least a version of it, there is an unfortunate tendency among martial artists to take a sort of 'my dad's tougher than your dad!' approach when speaking about either their immediate sensei or their arts founder.
However it is all pretty redundant in the great scheme of things.
As an example you can find stories of such accepted greats as Choki Motobu being beaten by Kentsu Yabu (either as a comparatively novice karateka or at wrestling) and a suggestion he was defeated in a trial of strength, not a fight, by Chojun Miyagi (with a wrist reversal or a knee to the coddes, depending on who's version) however no-one questions that he was an excellent karateka and an effective fighter (and incidentally a teacher of Hironori Ohtsuka, teacher of Suzuki Sensei).
Even if one martial artist were to prove invincible, there's no evidence that they could pass that on. None of the different martial arts are so unique that they contain a skill to beat all others, which means that the source of the supposed invulnerability would lie in such intangibles as intuition, awareness, perception and timing. These things can be developed within the bounds of individual talent. They can also be defeated by simply having an 'off' day.
There is a story of Morihei Ueshiba running out to scold some children throwing stones at his young son and tripping over in a puddle , or his hakama, I forget which. Not significant, but also not expected of the man widely regarded by his peers as the finest budoka of his generation.
So really it doesn't matter whether Oyama was ever (or never) beaten. If he were beaten by a 3rd Kyu it would only matter if he made a habit of it, in which case I doubt his very successful school and its offshoots would have got off the ground.
Just some random musings to atone for my earlier thread theft:)
regards
Paul

[Indar]

Even if one martial artist were to prove invincible, there's no evidence that they could pass that on.

Obviously, it's not that difficult to be invincible; you just have to be very choosy about who you fight. :p

[trevorg]

Obviously, it's not that difficult to be invincible; you just have to be very choosy about who you fight. :p

it is my understanding that Mas Oyama fought all-comers .

osu
Trevor

[gwroy20]

it is my understanding that Mas Oyama fought all-comers .

osu
Trevor
Yes, and this includes karateka, judoka, muay thai boxers, western boxers, chinese kung-fu practitioners, bulls ... Mas Oyama was more than a normal martial artist. I don't consider it favoritism when I say this, or think that I'm biased because I practice Kyokushin karate. I practice Kyokushin because of Mas Oyama's legendary accomplishments and knew about them long before I began training.

[trevorg]

Perhaps this might illuminate the discussion:

http://www.taiji-bg.com/articles/mixed/m23.htm

osu
Trevor

[gwroy20]

Perhaps this might illuminate the discussion:

http://www.taiji-bg.com/articles/mixed/m23.htm

osu
Trevor
There is as much evidence supporting this as ever having happened as there is evidence of Oyama losing to a 3rd Kyu. I really don't want to come across as a fanatic here, but please look at this article objectively. It is both vague, and very odd sounding. When I've got a bit more time, there is a discussion I came across once about this story that I think will shed some light on it, I'll have to see if I can find it again.

Actually, found it pretty quickly. It's a !!!!!!ido article: http://www.!!!!!!ido.net/forums/sitemap/index.php/t-32952.html

[ZachZinn]

There is as much evidence supporting this as ever having happened as there is evidence of Oyama losing to a 3rd Kyu. I really don't want to come across as a fanatic here, but please look at this article objectively. It is both vague, and very odd sounding. When I've got a bit more time, there is a discussion I came across once about this story that I think will shed some light on it, I'll have to see if I can find it again.

Actually, found it pretty quickly. It's a !!!!!!ido article: http://www.!!!!!!ido.net/forums/sitemap/index.php/t-32952.html


Didn't see an article there, when I replaced the "!!!" to get the actual URL all I saw was a typical "d00d MMA is t3h r0xx0rz" !!!!!!ido type thread, did I miss something?

Also, as someone mentioned before, it's a bit of a leap in logic to assume a styles efficacy rests solely on the result of engagement matches.

EDIT: Ah just noticed i'm not a !!!!!!ido member, lost my account and honestly I can't stand the level of discussion on there, can you please directly post the link from the thread here?

[gwroy20]

Hmmm...I am not a member, either. The link inside that thread is pretty much the same one that has been posted here, so it isn't necessary. If you're on page one of the thread, the discussion through page four or five should be entirely relevant to this subject.

[ZachZinn]

Hmmm...I am not a member, either. The link inside that thread is pretty much the same one that has been posted here, so it isn't necessary. If you're on page one of the thread, the discussion through page four or five should be entirely relevant to this subject.


Maybe i'm missing it completely but I don't see a usable link anywhere in the thread here other than the taiji one and the earlier Suzuki one, if you have a "counter-link" of some then post it.

As far as the discussion on bul lshido being relevant, it just looks like the same juvenile ego masturbation that made me give up on ever really using bul lshido in the first place.

As passionate as you have been about this I kind of expected to see the posting of a link that was an actual retort of some sort to the taiji link above, what you posted was a very typical, and frankly fruitless bul lshido discussion.

IMHO posting links to discussions like that on here is on the level of posting links about in depth kata analysis and history to bul lshido, the two worlds just don't seem to mesh well.

What exactly in that wandering beast of a thread sheds new light on the subject at hand?

Not trying to be nasty here, but just posting more opinions probably doesn't get us anywhere, right?

[gwroy20]

I typically dislike the style of discussion on !!!!!!ido, myself. While most of the comments in the thread that I posted are pretty typical in nature, they are somewhat relevant. A few of them bring up good points about the credibility of the taiji article. This one in particular, on page two.


Matt Bernius
04-04-2006, 11:32 AM
God, this one again...

As far as I have been able to tell, this is a total fabrication. If you do a little bit of searching, you'll find that the only information about this on the internet are word-for-word copy=and-pastes of this article. See for example:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Now... *cracking knuckles* let me tear this apart:

1. No verifiable published (ie. book) source for the story. While it's not required, an event of this much significance should have other accounts backing it up. All we have is essentially an oral account. And talk is easy and cheap. The fact that any article on this is a word-for-word reproduction sets off flags as well.

2. The writer uses phrases like "According to his [Oyama's] own narration" to make his case. The question is, where is Oyama's narration of this event documented. This story appears in no Biographies of Oyama's, including his own autobiography. As I have already noted, this essay seems to be the only account of this event.

So this "In his own words" note seems pretty dubious, especially because Oyama is no longer with us or capible of verifiying this.

3. Can't ID any figures in the story other than Oyama:

The writer refers to the celebrate Tai Chi master as "a certain Mr Chen." We only know this exemplary teacher by an extremely common Chinese name (not to mention the name of a style of Tai Chi). This ties into the common martial arts trope of the humble and otherwise indistinguishable teacher. Yet, by this time there were numerous Martial Arts Historians at work, such as Robert Smith, documenting various Chinese Masters. So the chance that one slipped through that net, especially one who bested the legendary Oyama is pretty dubious.

The story also features the nameless student: "one of Mr Chen's students" who verifies the event. And there is also the Thai Fighter "Black Cobra", note again no name here. Oyama's Thai fights are well documented, but I can't seem to find a name for this specific fighter. Further dubiousness.

All this leads to the best quote:

"Another famous Shotokan Karate master, who is also dead now, once remarked to his student that,"Taiji is a very powerful art, but it is an art for superhumans. For us ordinary humans it is better to stick to Karate."

This, is a quote from Moving Zen...Karate as a Way to Gentleness by C.W. Nicol. My understanding is that Nicol was one of Draeger's housemates in Japan. The Shotokan man in question is Masatoshi Nakayama. The quote that Nicol shared was

Nakayama sensei, our chief instructor, was certainly not narrow. He had studied many arts, and he had studied in China. Once I asked him if he thought Karate was the best of the unarmed fighting arts. He answered that he thought it was. In that case, I countered, what about Tai chi chuan? Nakayama sensei laughed, and with a smile he said, "For human beings, Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps a few of the Tai chi sensei are just that."

It should also be noted that the Tai Chi sensei he was referring to was Wang Shujin. Either way, this quote has been taken out of context and twisted for the article.

4. "According to his own narration, after he defeated the formidable Muaythai figher "Black Cobra" in Thailand, he travelled to Hong Kong to meet a certain Mr Chen, a man rumoured to be a great Taiji master." - Note that there is no time frame reference in this article. The closest that we get is after a certain thai boxing match with no associated date and with a fighter that can't be located. Basically this conviently can not be situated anywhere in Oyama's life, which leads to:

5. "After that he stayed with Mr Chen for a period, learning the principles of Taiji." - There is no historical record of Oyama making an extended stay in Hong Kong. Or even setting foot there until later in his life.

6. Finally, accounts of this do not appear in Oyama's bios/autobios (even though the event moved him to tears), nor his students bios (this includes Ninomiya and Blumming, both who took Oyama to task on various points).

[ZachZinn]

I typically dislike the style of discussion on !!!!!!ido, myself. While most of the comments in the thread that I posted are pretty typical in nature, they are somewhat relevant. A few of them bring up good points about the credibility of the taiji article. This one in particular, on page two.


Thanks for pointing that out, i'd have to agree that from what i've seen so far the story does seem a bit more dubious. On the other hand, I also feel that alot of the stories surrounding Oyama's exploits are as questionable as this story. I guess the truth probably lies somewhere in between.

The real question to my mind is why it's particularly important either way. So why is it?

[gwroy20]

I don't think it's particularly important. Someone previously brought up the article, which relates to the topic in that it would have been a case where Mas Oyama had indeed lost a fight. I don't think it's a credible case, so I attempted to show why.

[trevorg]

I agree. It should be about the discovery of facts where possible and not someone else's third hand opinion, although of course we all realise that myth, legend and fact get blurred quite a bit in m.a.

Osu
Trevor

[trevorg]

And by the way,it was me that brought up the article. Just trying to help.

Osu
Trevor

[gwroy20]

I think it was beneficial to be brought up and discussed, thanks.

Osu!

[shorin student]

I was told by Iha Seikichi sensei that Oyama challenged a student of
Choki Motobu and the student did not wait for a formal match and just struck him immediately in the forehead as soon as the words was out of his mouth with the foreknuckle strike that Motobu was famous for and knocked Oyama out. Oyama thought that it was not fair but acknowledged Motobu had taught strong karate.

Maybe legend. But sensei's teacher Miyahira Katsuya is recognized for studying the longest with Motobu. So that may be where the story was heard from although one side.

JOhn Cross

[TheBadger]

Not to be irreverant, but does it really matter whether Oyama or any "master" has lost a fight? Isn't his legacy and the quality of his karate the important issue? On any given day anyone can be beaten. In my experience free fighting can be a bit of a crap shoot so I ask again, why is his "win/loss record" important?

[Moenstah]

I've started the thread not as something of importance, but rather out of curiosity. Some of the less mentally gifted from the kyokushinkai community claim that Oyama has never been defeated. Of course this is just propaganda, but it got me wondering: was he ever beaten? So I surfed and surfed, but I couldn't find any reliable evidence. That's when (and why) I posed my question on this forum.

[ZachZinn]

Not to be irreverant, but does it really matter whether Oyama or any "master" has lost a fight? Isn't his legacy and the quality of his karate the important issue? On any given day anyone can be beaten. In my experience free fighting can be a bit of a crap shoot so I ask again, why is his "win/loss record" important?


I couldn't agree more, given the popularity of MMA type events today, it seems common sense to admit that someone can be an incredible fighter and still lose quite easily. As you said, not neccessarily a reflection of the quality of their system, style, etc.

[Moenstah]

As you said, not neccessarily a reflection of the quality of their system, style, etc.

Which wasn't part of the enquiry, as stated in my first post.

Cheers,

[gwroy20]

I couldn't agree more, given the popularity of MMA type events today, it seems common sense to admit that someone can be an incredible fighter and still lose quite easily. As you said, not neccessarily a reflection of the quality of their system, style, etc.
Except for Fedor. :p

[ZachZinn]

Which wasn't part of the enquiry, as stated in my first post.

Cheers,


Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything personal.

I do think that most of the time when people post something of this nature it's not approached in such an academic manner.

Since we're on the subject, can someone post or direct me to links about fights of Oyama's that are well documented? I know there are some and i'd like a comparision.

[Moenstah]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything personal.

I do think that most of the time when people post something of this nature it's not approached in such an academic manner.

Since we're on the subject, can someone post or direct me to links about fights of Oyama's that are well documented? I know there are some and i'd like a comparision.

Hey Zachariah,

I wasn't offended, I just wanted to clarify my point. ;)

Found this article, apparently a speech given by Oyama himself, in which he admits that he lost fights (against multiple opponents, groups), but sort of tries to downplay losing against single opponents http://www.musashi.nl/frame1.htm


Yes I have lost many times. Just after the war, I was bashed up by a group of blacks, and was even hospitalized, but man-to-man I have never lost clearly.

The whole article is pretty interesting. :cool:

[brendan V Lanza]

Masutatsu has had most of his fights recorded when he was traveling around Japan and fighting and he never lost. If he had then the fighter would have claimed it, he was all over the japanese newspapers for awhile. He beat everybody in professional fights, and then he went to the states and did the same thing. Finally when he ran out of challengers he beat bulls with his bare hands. Name another Karate master that beat 250 bulls with his bare hands, including the time that oyama sosai broke off a horn that was lodged in his own stomach and then felled the bull with a single blow to the forehead. We recorded his bullfights as well. Oyama was just as much a master as the other styles' masters if not more so. he should be included in their group when mentioned, and not treated separately. They used to call him "Godshand in Japan because he would always win with one blow. His style is without a doubt the best one in matches against muay thai, besides mma. He is undefeated.

[Moenstah]

Masutatsu has had most of his fights recorded when he was traveling around Japan and fighting and he never lost. If he had then the fighter would have claimed it, he was all over the japanese newspapers for awhile. He beat everybody in professional fights, and then he went to the states and did the same thing. Finally when he ran out of challengers he beat bulls with his bare hands. Name another Karate master that beat 250 bulls with his bare hands, including the time that oyama sosai broke off a horn that was lodged in his own stomach and then felled the bull with a single blow to the forehead. We recorded his bullfights as well.

I think you got your facts mixed up, (unless you can give a source of course). You see this source (http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/masoyama.htm#End) states:
In all, he fought 52 bulls, three of which were killed instantly, and 49 had their horns taken off with knife hand blows.

and further on:
In 1952, he travelled the United States for a year, demonstrating his karate live and on national televison. During subsequent years, he took on all challengers, resulting in fights with 270 different people.



Oyama was just as much a master as the other styles' masters if not more so. he should be included in their group when mentioned, and not treated separately. They used to call him "Godshand in Japan because he would always win with one blow. His style is without a doubt the best one in matches against muay thai, besides mma. He is undefeated.

I'm sorry, but this comment is more of the worshipping than of the respecting kind. This thread wasn't about repeating phrases, but about stating/finding facts.

[brendan V Lanza]

Sorry, my number of bulls was incorrect, it was an old wikipedia article, and they have since changed it. I admit that I had the number wrong, but I still didn't get the other stuff wrong.
"In total he fought against 270 opponents and beated them all , most of them with a single attack"
see, a single attack, taken from
http://www.willingtonkarateclub.org/style/masoyamahistory1.html

and also,
"If he came close to you, than the fight was over, if he hit you, something broke, if you tried to block his attach, the result would be a broken or dislocated arm and if you didn't block your ribs would be broken. Due to his power and skill he bacame known as God's Hand."

taken from the same site, although it is also found on numerous others. I also have a teacher that learned directly from him and has spoken about it. Maybe you should do more research and not accuse people of worship if it is common knowledge

[brendan V Lanza]

No offense or disrespect, but you did the same to me. You can also find this info on japanese news papers. If you were so inclined. Do you personally have a problem with calling him an equivalent to one of the other karate masters? I think it's difficult to argue that he is every bit as decorated.

[Chris McLean]

What one man can do another can do. No man that has trained in a dojo has gone undefeated that is rediculous everyone looses and anyone who has made shodan knows this. Winning and loosing are the same they are both empty and meaningless, and its meaningless that its empty and meaningless.

[Moenstah]

Dear Brendan,

I am well aware that Oyama was an exceptional karateka, whose fighting abilities were and are beyond doubt.

My objection against a part of your post was the repetition of the 'he was undefeated' part. That's a phrase, it might even be called a semi-religious formula, which is so often repeated among karateka, and aroused my curiosity and scrutiny. (see OP)

Just like Chris stated: no-one is undefeated. Man cannot learn without making errors and paying the price for them.

It is NOT an attempt to drag down Mas Oyama. Hell, I have been thinking to switch from okinawan goju ryu to an kyokushin offshoot (ashihara). But in your post, and in daily life, I meet way too often an exaggerated form of reverence towards 'masters' (i.e.: founders of certain schools/styles). Nonsense, they have been human beings of flesh and blood just like you and me.

[brendan V Lanza]

Well said and well taken, but I feel that you might have misunderstood my previous post, I didn't mean that he had never lost a fight of any kind in his life, I meant professionally he had never lost a fight. Just the same way that Rocky Marciano had never lost a fight in his life. I'm sure he has, but on record he hasn't. When you're learning Karate you must lose, like every human being, it's a part of learning, or you aren't trying hard enough. However, in the case of both Rocky and Oyama, they have never lost a fight professionally. The same was with Miyamoto Musashi, he must've lost alot of fights in learning, but never lost one in his professional and real life fights after he had finished his learning of skills. We know that he didn't lose, because in his time that meant death and he wasn't killed in a duel as far as I know. I don't count the sparring matches and initial white belt through shodan kind of little kumites, it's the professional career I'm referring to. Oyama Mas himself said, in one of the earlier posts on this page that he had lost a fight in his earlier life to a group of angry blacks, for example. But, I believe that was before he had felt that he mastered his style and started traveling around and fighting people. At that stage he had numerous encounters with people trying to carve a name for themselves from his own reputation, and groups did attack him, but he was able to get out of those situations, as far as I understand. The original question was whether he had lost a fight professionally, from what I gathered, and in that respect he is undefeated. As far as anything religious goes, I do feel that there is a religious part of Karate, and you should revere your master and founder, but I would not say that I am religious in my reverence, I can also admit Oyama's faults, but I won't do that here. He was a man like you and me, but he was a great man and karateka, of which the world doesn't have enough.

[Moenstah]

Dear Brendan

Thanks for clarifying things. Seems like Luther's 'sola scriptura' led to mistakes

:)

Cheers,

[brendan V Lanza]

:) no problem, thanks for listening to me shoot out random martial arts history