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View Full Version : Raymond Cocatre, Yoseikan and koryu ju-jutsu



Rasmus
16th July 2007, 22:49
As in most European countries we got our own "brand" of modern self-defence systems here in Sweden which labels itself "ju-jutsu". Our particualar "brand", as most others, trace its roots to early judo. There are also a strong inluence from a Frence man named Raymond Cocatre. I've been told he was a member of Yoseikan but broke away and that yoeseikan is some sort of early aikido branch.

Could anyone please tell me more about this Cocatre and the style of Yoseikan. Especially in relation to authentic koryu systems and other more traditional styles. Cross-posting is forbidden so let's start here and see if need be to ask more questions in the koryu ju-jutsu section.

Cheers
/rasmus

Benkei the Monk
24th July 2007, 21:58
I don't Know Mr. Cocatre, but I can say that Yoseikan has roots on ancient Koryu. The aikijujutsu is the same that Ueshiba sensei taught in 1930s (so it is strictly connected with Daito Ryu) and I think that also the judo system is deeply connected with the first Kodokan Judo (it seems much more jujutsu than nowadays Judo). The sutemi part is also taken by Gyokushin Ryu Jujutsu, an ancient koryu, according to many interviews released by Mochizuki Minoru Sensei

I think it can be helpful a search in the forum or a post in koryu section

I hope I'm helpful for you

john_lord_b3
25th July 2007, 04:15
The aikijujutsu is the same that Ueshiba sensei taught in 1930s (so it is strictly connected with Daito Ryu)

Yes this is very true. In the earlier years of Aikido, Uyeshiba sensei gave out Daito-ryu ranks to his students. Tomiki Kenji and Mochizuki sensei were some of the recipients of such ranks.

It is worth noting that, when he was alive, Mochizuki sensei were invited to some Daito-ryu demonstrations as a representative of Yoseikan Dojo, not as representative of "Aikikai Aikido".

In the years following WWII, many students of Mochizuki sensei were given permissions (or maybe giving themselves permissions, the conclusion vary from person to person) to start their own group, just like Mochizuki sensei started his own group. Just like the above poster, I don't know Mr. Cocatre. However, I do know that Mr. Alain Floquet and Mr. Roland Hernaez, and also Mr. Jan De Jong of Australia, were students of Mochizuki sensei. And they started their own groups, whose syllabus includes many Yoseikan-inspired techniques.

Phil Farmer
27th July 2007, 16:48
The previous posts have offered excellent Yoseikan information. The roots of Yoseikan lie in judo, jiujitsu (as noted above), karate (shotokan and wado ryu), katori shinto ryu (as Minoru Mochizuki interpretted it), and later with Hiroo Mochizuki Shihan, Kempo, western boxing, french kickboxing (savate), and even some tai chi influences.

Daito ryu invited Minoru Mochizuki back to work with them on multiple occaisions and Takeda's name appears on at least one of his menkyo kaiten scrolls. Many of those students named in this thread have indeed moved to their own styles, Mr. Floquet practices an aiki that I understand is much more aikijutsu or aikibujutsu than aiki in its current form. I believe Mr. de Jong is much the same. I am not familiar with Mr. Cocatre, but there are others in Europe who may immediately know of him.

And, just as a last aside, Yoseikan is indeed deeply steeped in ancient Japanese koryu. Minoru Mochizuki was a direct student of Kano, Funikoshi, and Ueshiba as well as a highly ranked student in katori shinto ryu, the last menkyo kaiten holder in the gokushin ryu (sp), dan ranked in jojutsu, and more besides. Yoseikan Budo today, continues to stand on those fine Japanese foundations as Shihan Hiroo Mochizuki, who was a direct student of Ueshiba from 1948 to 1963, holds rank in aiki, jiujitsu, shotokan, wado ryu, judo, and a few others. He has added golden gloves boxing, Chinese kempo, and savate (sp) from france to Yoseikan budo as well. He has said that he believes his father's Yoseikan should have been identified as a soft jiujitsu instead of an aiki style.

john_lord_b3
28th July 2007, 14:50
Hello Farmer sensei, I am glad that I was not giving out wrong information regarding the relationship between Mochizuki sensei and the Daito-ryu people :)

Regarding Hiroo sensei, my Wado-ryu teacher happened to know him. When I mentioned the Mochizuki name, my teacher immediately said something like "Mochizuki? isn't that the Wadokai black belt who is now in Paris?" and added "his father (Mochizuki senior) is a Jujutsu master".

I am in close contact with the Jujutsu people who worked out together a lot with De Jong sensei when he was in Indonesia. I think there were some exchanges between this group and De Jong sensei. When I show a Hakko-ryu wristlock, one of the elder Jujutsuka said something like "that's Sankajo. De Jong sensei taught us that one".

Flintstone
28th July 2007, 20:07
However, I do know that Mr. Alain Floquet and Mr. Roland Hernaez, and also Mr. Jan De Jong of Australia, were students of Mochizuki sensei. And they started their own groups, whose syllabus includes many Yoseikan-inspired techniques.
Just don't forget about Jan Janssens Sensei, another student of Mochizuki Sensei who started his own group named Aikijujutsu Yoseikan (http://www.aikijujutsu-yoseikan.be/) . Being a 7th dan, he is currently the technical director for all Aikido styles in IMAF Europe (http://www.imaf-europe.com/) .

john_lord_b3
30th July 2007, 03:55
muchas gracias alejendro for the info. I didn't know about Mr. Jansens. I am opening his website now. Should be interesting!

Phil Farmer
30th July 2007, 16:13
John,

Just as a quick aside, Hiroo Mochizuki was responsible for introducing shotokan to Europe many years ago, as his father before him introduced aikido to Europe in the early 50's. When he went back to France in the 1960's he was teaching Wado Ryu in Paris as your teacher correctly knew. He now lives in Aix en Provence, outside of Marseilles and was awarded a ninth dan in karate by the French Karate Federation in recognition of his role in developing karate throughout Europe.

john_lord_b3
31st July 2007, 03:59
Thank you for the additional information Farmer sensei. I have one question. I read in the web (many moons ago, maybe in the mid 1990s) that Hiroo sensei once fought a much larger French boxer in a friendly match (not NHB), and it ended in a draw, much to the surprise of the Frenchmen. Is this rumor or reality?

Phil Farmer
31st July 2007, 14:09
It is my understanding that the event did indeed occur. These sorts of things happened to Minoru Mochizuki as well. When he went to Europe in 1951, Minoru Sensei went many places and had friendly (as you said not NHB) matches. I have been honored to see some of the places these events occurred and it was as you said with Shihan Hiroo, to the great surprise of the Europeans, both Mochizuki's held their own and in Minoru Shihan's case, he won them all (at least according to a proud son and other Yoseikan people). Both of these great martial artists were known for their enjoyment of a good match. In Minoru Sensei's case it got him in trouble once with Master Kano.

john_lord_b3
2nd August 2007, 05:35
Ah, so that explains why they have tournament match in modern Yoseikan, am I right Farmer sensei? I'd love to see one of those tourneys. Too bad there are no Yoseikan in my country.

Anyway, I have seen old footages (maybe 1950s?) of Minoru sensei when he was young, throwing around some larger French guy with shihonage from any conceivable position, and demonstrating Katori sword techniques. His technique is very direct and effective, very much like Jujutsu and not very similar with Aikikai Aikido. There is also another footage from a Daito-ryu event where Minoru sensei is wearing suit and tie and his students (maybe one of them were Hiroo sensei?) performed sword techniques demo, and a very interesting demo of techniques and counter-techniques done in slow motion. I think it was from the 1980s. Those are about all the Yoseikan I've ever seen (along with a couple of tapes from Floquet sensei). Too bad there are not much videos available for this wonderful Budo art.

Flintstone
2nd August 2007, 08:40
(...) and a very interesting demo of techniques and counter-techniques done in slow motion. I think it was from the 1980s.
I guess that was the Hyori no Kata. A beautiful one, by the way. If you've seen footage of Floquet Sensei, then you may have seen this kata renamed as Ura no Kata, or "kata of the countertechniques".

Phil Farmer
2nd August 2007, 14:31
It was indeed Hiori no kata that was demonstrated at the Daito Ryu Friendship Demonstrate in 1992. I have been in contact with a daito ryu practitioner in Tokyo who was at that demonstration and it was, in part to honor Minoru Mochizuki. According to the fellow in Tokyo, Shihan Minoru politely stood up and took daito ryu to task for its "poor attacks and unrealistic techniques". That may explain why the Yoseikan portion of the demo is so short!

There are several reasons, actually, for Yoseikan Budo to have its current competition. First and foremost, competition is not required of any practitioner and truly represents about 15% of what we do. The primary reason for competition is to present a safe way to test skills in a combat situation and see if those skills work or not. From that point of view, indeed it is the Mochizuki spirit of good competition but it is educational in its purpose - to truly test skills and see if things work. I refereed at the World Cup in Brussels this past May and as a referee, I am to be an educator first and foremost.

A second reason for the competition relates to how martial arts are done in France, where they are governed by Federations that are part of the government. A martial art must be recognized by the Federation and one way to do that is to have a sports section, which requires competition. It is very complex in France and several other European countries as to how they register and organize sports and martial arts.

In truth, I am too old to be a competitor but I love the competitions and the total conditioning it takes. The padded weapons we use were designed to make it possible for the newest beginner to start using a padded sword without risking injury. I started Yoseikan in the old school approach of Minoru Shihan and those first workouts with a bokken were, well I still have a few bumps to remind me of how hard wood can be. Even our children's classes can use padded weapons and develop a respect for the weapon without danger. Thank you all for recognizing the skills and history of the Mochizuki family.

Oh, and you can go to yoseikan-budo.org and see some highlights and pictures from the World Cup, but there are clips of our competitions on the internet. If you cant find them, message me and I will see if I can send you some clips.

Benkei the Monk
2nd August 2007, 14:53
It was indeed Hiori no kata that was demonstrated at the Daito Ryu Friendship Demonstrate in 1992. I have been in contact with a daito ryu practitioner in Tokyo who was at that demonstration and it was, in part to honor Minoru Mochizuki. According to the fellow in Tokyo, Shihan Minoru politely stood up and took daito ryu to task for its "poor attacks and unrealistic techniques". That may explain why the Yoseikan portion of the demo is so short!

There are several reasons, actually, for Yoseikan Budo to have its current competition. First and foremost, competition is not required of any practitioner and truly represents about 15% of what we do. The primary reason for competition is to present a safe way to test skills in a combat situation and see if those skills work or not. From that point of view, indeed it is the Mochizuki spirit of good competition but it is educational in its purpose - to truly test skills and see if things work. I refereed at the World Cup in Brussels this past May and as a referee, I am to be an educator first and foremost.

A second reason for the competition relates to how martial arts are done in France, where they are governed by Federations that are part of the government. A martial art must be recognized by the Federation and one way to do that is to have a sports section, which requires competition. It is very complex in France and several other European countries as to how they register and organize sports and martial arts.

In truth, I am too old to be a competitor but I love the competitions and the total conditioning it takes. The padded weapons we use were designed to make it possible for the newest beginner to start using a padded sword without risking injury. I started Yoseikan in the old school approach of Minoru Shihan and those first workouts with a bokken were, well I still have a few bumps to remind me of how hard wood can be. Even our children's classes can use padded weapons and develop a respect for the weapon without danger. Thank you all for recognizing the skills and history of the Mochizuki family.

Oh, and you can go to yoseikan-budo.org and see some highlights and pictures from the World Cup, but there are clips of our competitions on the internet. If you cant find them, message me and I will see if I can send you some clips.

Thanks a lot Farmer Sensei for your contribution. I was wondering if you can tell us more about your experience in the old school. You said something about workouts with bokken. How was the free sparring wit Mochizuki Minoru Sensei (with and without weapons)?

Thanks a lot!

Phil Farmer
2nd August 2007, 21:02
My instructor, Dr. Glenn Pack, began Yoseikan with Colonel Demizu in 1968 when Demizu Sensei was at the Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama. Dr. Pack, during the ensuing years, made regular trips to the Hombu Dojo in Shizuoka and trained with Minoru Shihan, as did his wife, Pat Saiz Sensei.

Together, the were the foundation for Yoseikan in the U.S. so we have a strong foundation in the old Katori based katas with bokken and bo/bokken. The free randori with bokken has always been very limited but it was not unusual in the Hombu Dojo to see people sparring with padded bokken and I have video of this being done in the 80's and later, as was the use of boxing gloves on occaision in the Hombu dojo.

So, the traditional yoseikan is the U.S. foundation and we teach all of the sutemi, kansetsu, shime, osae and all of the traditional joint locks. We are responsible for the old katori based kata like itsuzu no kata, nanatsu no kata, and the tachi and suwari iai. It is why I recognize yukichigai, robuse, kote kudaki, et. al. as the names of techniques. Starting in 1997, we became affiliated with Hiroo Shihan and began learning many of the things Yoseikan World Federation have to offer. While it makes our curriculum very large, I believe it gives us the best of both worlds as we learn all the techniques from both. The truth is, Yoseikan Budo has all of the techniques that were ever in traditional Yoseikan (with a few exceptions for techniques that are very specialized or not particularly combat effective) but with modern punching and kicking ways to get to the techniques.

I have done some sparring with wooden bokken, freestyle and it is an exercise in control and fear. One mistake is very painful, so we dont do much. Now the paired bokken katas, like itsuzu or nanatsu or others, those are quite fun when done at speed and it gives you an appreciation for just how deadly those encounters were with live blades. They say football is a game of inches, well bokken and katana, that is a game of millimeters or less.