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Doug Daulton
31st December 2000, 17:54
This thread is dedicated to the research and study of the theoretical and practical applications of the kata Passai in its various derivations throughout the Okinawan karate ryuha.

Discussion of Japanese and Western interpretations of this kata are welcome as are discussions of the influence of Chinese martial arts on the origin/development of this kata. Practitioners of all levels and backgrounds are welcome to post. Through the free sharing of ideas, perhaps we can all learn a bit more about the kata.

Please avoid statements like "My teacher, XYZ Sensei, knew the one, true Kata X ... all else is bunk." or the Saturday cinema classic "My kungfu is better than yours". Even if you are right .. it is rude and most likely something your teacher would rather you did not say anyway. All E-budo rules apply.

Enjoy! :D

_______________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 01-17-2001 at 01:17 PM]

kusanku
31st December 2000, 23:44
Passai, first of the master or advanced kata of Matsubayashi-ryu Shorinryu,, is a complete fighting form.Its thesis in Kyan No Passai, is an anti-torite counterlock and strike and throw kata, with many vital attacks in it.

Featuring the knife hand,this Passai is a fine kata involving very subtle weight shifts, shin and leg blocking, trapping and slicing and striking and poking, with turning and side kick used to facilitate twisting throws, and many one shot take out strikes.

The first and simplest of the advanced kata, Passai nevertheless requires much careful practice and study.

Passai contains, as do the other three advanced kata of Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu, waza seen in no other kata.

Many best regards to all,
Kusanku



[Edited by kusanku on 01-15-2001 at 08:15 PM]

Jari Virta
13th January 2001, 07:20
Originally posted by Doug Daulton
This thread is dedicated to the research and study of the theoretical and practical applications of the kata Passai in its various derivations throughout the Okinawan karate ryuha.

I was told that the techniques in this kata may have been created for fighting in the dark (especially the "seeking/searching hands" techniques), any opinions?

Jari Virta
14th January 2001, 06:48
Originally posted by Jim Kass
I do not think Passai is known for “searching hand” or night fighting techniques. You may be confusing this kata with the Kusanku kata

I am a bit confused. I am referring to the Shorin Ryu and here is what I found; Go to the website at

http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/seibukan/

It is an official Seibukan Shorin Ryu school (you can find it from http://www.seibukan.org too if you check out the dojos in Finland) so it should be authentic. The site is in finnish, but just do as I instruct. First click 'Kata' on the left. Then just click 'in english' and read on until the heading 'Passai'. There you'll find out what I'm talking about!

Joe Swift
15th January 2001, 04:12
Hello all,

Great stuff, this Passai. Here's what I have been able to dig up in the past few years.

1. Concerning the Name/Origins of Passai

First of all, it is necessary to clear some things up about the meaning of Passai. Many state that the kata name means something along the lines of ?gto penetrate a fortress?h or some other such definition. It is important to realize, however, that such definitions come from so-called ateji, which is the use of Sino-Japanese ideograms (kanji) to preserve the pronunciation of a foreign word and to give it some semblance of meaning. In 1935, Funakoshi Gichin wrote in his Karatedo Kyohan that he had changed the old Sino-Okinawan kata names to nomenclature that would be more palatable to the Japanese, and it is here that we see the first written record of Passai (Bassai in Japanese) defined as "penetrating a fortress." Three years later, Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa, in Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon, blatantly state their use of ateji for kata names. Mabuni, although using different kanji than Funakoshi, expressed basically the same meaning.

Okinawan karate researcher Kinjo Akio, feels that the Passai kata is related to Leopard and Lion boxing forms. He feels that the first step in the kata, where one steps in, twists the body sideways and performs a strong strike/block with the closed fist is representative of Leopard boxing, whereas the use of the open hand and the stomping actions are more representative of Lion boxing. The name itself, Kinjo holds, actually means ?gLeopard-Lion,?h which would be pronounced Baoshi in Mandarin, Baassai in Fuzhou dialect and Pausai in Quanzhou dialect.

Other theories as to the meaning of the name Passai include "eight fortresses." Noted Okinawan karate historian Hokama Tetsuhiro has even hypothesized that it might represent a personal name. Murakami Katsumi, a direct student of such luminaries as Chibana Choshin (Shorinryu), Inoue Motokatsu (Ryukyu Kobujutsu), Kyoda Juhatsu (To'onryu) and many others, calls upon his knowledge of Chinese martial arts when searching for the possible roots of Passai. He says that some parts remind him of the Wuxing Quan (Five Elements Fist) form of Xingyi Quan.

2. Versions/Evolution

Of the Okinawan versions of Passai, a clear evolutionary link can be seen from the Matsumura no Passai to the Oyadomari no Passai and then onto the Passai Dai of Itosu. Out of these, the Matsumura version seems to have retained an essentially Chinese flavour, whereas the Oyadomari version is a more "Okinawanized" form, which was further modified by Itosu into the uniquely Okinawan modern version seen today.

Of the two Passai in Itosu's toudi, the Passai Dai is very similar to the Ishimine no Passai, believed to be passed down by Bushi Ishimine. The Sho version of Itosu's Passai is often described as being utilized against a staff wielding opponent, but Murakami believes that the principles found in this kata were utilized quite a bit in actual (unarmed) confrontations.

3. On Passai in Chibana Lineage Shorinryu

Itosu Anko taught 2 versions of Passai in his physical education version of "toudi" and these were designated as Dai and Sho.

Chibana Choshin was a direct student of Itosu, and also taught a Passai Dai and Sho.

However, these are different. What seems to have happened, is that Chibana had learned a third version of Passai from his relative Bushi Tawada, who was a direct student of Matsumura Sokon. According to direct Chibana student Murakami Katsumi, when Chibana showed this version (sometimes called the Tawada-ha Matsumura no Passai) to Itosu. Itosu had told him that he had never seen anyone perform that particular kata as well as Chibana, and that he should preserve it.

So what had happened, is that Chibana kept this Passai and called it Passai Dai, and relagated Itosu's Passai Dai to the position of Passai Sho. This left the "other" Passai Sho in limbo...

The "other Passai Sho" is none other than the so-called "Koryu Passai" or "Passai Gwa" that is practiced in some Chibana lineage sects of Shorin. I think that Miyahira had learned this particular version from Gusukuma Shinpan (another direct Itosu student) and this is where the Gusukuma lineage came into being in that tradition.

This is probably as clear as MUD, but I hope you can wade through it! Maybe the following will help:

Thanks,

kusanku
16th January 2001, 03:13
Mr. Roussselot- As requested I have edited my post on Passai,and clarified a number of points, and I trust that it will satisfy and answer your many objections.

As for the spelling, I do apologize the wireless keyboard I am obliged to use does drop lettters in transmission, incessantly, and is a cause of myuch annoyance to me and, apparently, to yourself as well.

As for my many 'claims';I was a Vietnamense, Hanoi Dialect Linguist in the US Air Force in 1974-1975, at the tail end of the Vietnam War.

If you or anyone else may doubt this, I will be happy to demonstrate its truth.

Now, as my clarified post states, my reference to Passai, Kyan No Passai, the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu kata, as the first of the master or advanced kata, is not a refeence to ancient karate or Kempo, but to the Matsubayashi ryu system practiced and systematized by Shoshin Nagamine,whose student James Wax taught my teacher who taught me.Myteacher was Richard Burch of Piqua , Ohio, who also was a student of Frank Grant, a student of Nagamine-San and of Ueshiro Ansei Sensei.

Though I am a twenty-eight year , now almost twenty-nine year, practitioner of Shorin ryu, I have and claim no rank in that art, nor can you find anywhere or anyone who would truthfully say that I do or have.My skill level in it however I leave to others familiar with that art, to judge.

Are there any more claims of mine you would like to dispute, Sir?

I would also like to explain for your benefit since we were all getting on famously until you showed up, and I believe you said you weren't coming back here but here you are again:-),that Mr. Doug Daulton, the Moderator of this Forum, graciously acceded to my request to do a separate thread on each Shorin Ryu kata, and that my comments on these threeads basically refer to this style's versions of these kata.

And to their placement in this modern system of kata, one of whose antecedents was however, Choki Motob, one of Mr. Nagamine's teachers.

The fact that several high ranking exponents of Shorin ryu and some others are taking part in these discussions and none has yet found fault with me, should indicate that maybe, just maybe, I might know what I am talking about.

M. Daulton is a ranked yudansha inn the system I am speaking on here, and I presume he will take me to task if I screw up really bad in my exposition.

However, to answer your points, one by one:

'Mr. Vengel's statement cannot be true(master or advanced kata)'

It is true of the modern systems of karate , not of the ancient systems.
Basic katas were invented such as the Pinan and later the Fukyu gata, first two of Mr. Nagamine's system- he invented the first and Miyagi Chojun invented the second.

Originally the foundation forms of Shorin ryu, the older system invented by Matsumura Sokon, had kata such as seisan, Naihanchi and so on, as foundation forms.

That old masters only knew one or two katas is in fact quite true.Some however, like Matsumura and Itosu, knew many katas, Kyan apparently knew at least nine unarmed and a couple kobujutsu,and although Motobu himself learned initially the three Naihanchi and Tomari Passai from Matsumora Kosaku,does not stop the fact that later in life, he learned manymore, and taught them all.His style and students reside in Japan Joe Swift can get you in touch with them if you wish to verify the fact that they teach many kata.

Mr. Nagamine's system contains eighteen unarmed kata in its syllabus. I know all eighteen of them.Also I know applications.They may not be the ones you know because these are different katas done, according to my Kempo Sensei to whom I showed them according to a different theory, one which made him narrow his eyes because it is a working theory as well.:-)

Shorin ryu is an effective style of Okinawan karate, no less so than others we may both be familiar with in differing degree.:-)

'there is no such thing as an advanced kata or a beginner kata, they are all advanced kata.'

True enough statement in isolation, but you fail to consider the context of the eighteenthreads on Okinawn kata we are involved in here, I was commenting on the place of each kata in the Matsubayashi ryu syllabus.

So in context, yes, there are:

Basic Shorin ryu kata of Matsubayashi ryu:1.Fukyu Gata Ichi
2.Fukyu Gata Ni

Second group of basic kata:Pinan1-5

Third group of basic kata:Naihanchi One-Three

Intermediate Kata: Ananku
Wankan
Rohai
Wanshu

Advanced Kata
Passai
Gojushiho
Chinto
Yara Kusanku

This is in the context of the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu system, as adumbrated by Nagamine Shoshin, and as related to the ranks you learn the kata at.

The kata are in fact basic, intermediate and advanced in the context of one's training in this particular system, in others ones that are basic there may be advanced .

The kata may be taught n whatever order desired, but I find this order to be exceptonally logical and of ascending complexity for the most part.

No doubt that is why Master Nagamine ordered them so.

'Only a person with limited understanding of them separates them into advanced and beginner kata.'

Well, Master Nagmine is passed on, so he can not speak for himself here, but his son is alive, perhaps you could tell him that he and his father had limited understanding of the kata.:-)

'Some kata can be learned quicker than others.'

Yes, and those kata are often seen as the basic kata of a system.Makes sense to me.

'However, after practicing Naihanchi Shodan, considered to be the 'beginner's' kata in the Japanese styles...'

What Japnese style of Karate teaches Naihanchi shodan as the beginner's kata?Most teach Heain or Taikyoku, none that I know teach Naihanchi as the first.Okinawn Kenpo does, so do some not allShorin styles, but Shotokan starts with Heian.Next I suppose you will want to argue Shotokan with me? Let me know so I can nootify the Shotokan world that an expert on their style is taking the field, that being you.I'm sure Bob Mcmahon, and others, will love that.

'I am stilllearning new things...'

Robert, if you had taken the trouble to read before you post, my posts on the Naihanchi thread, you would see that I say naihanchi kata is all you ever need, period. I even disagreed with some who said you needed more.

You and I agree on this one.But you just made yourself look as bad as you tired to make me look, and I wish you'd just cool it, you're making a fool of yourself.

'Most katas contain all this.'

Yes they do, but in Passai, it is, like in Naihanchi, very clearly an anti grappling emphasis. even Funakoshi said so.here is, like in Naihanchi, a continuous shifting of position, a reverse and regrab and lock and throw type movement facilitated by the footwork, which is particularly subtle and particularly well suited for actual use as is, unlike the Naihanchi kata where the applications footwork must of needs not involve facing someone in naihanchi dachi.:D

'In Naihanchi kata, you can find defense from the front, side, back and even ground techniues, all from a kata that takes only thirty seconds to perform.'

You really really should go back and read my Naihanchi post Robert, that's old news, I already said all that and so did some others.

As for thirty seconds to do Naihanchi, are you doig that exhibition speed, because at combat speed it takes a whole lot less time than that to do Naihanchi Shodan No Kata.Unless you are slow or something.:D

'How can you be so sure?(that passai contains waza seen in no other kata) Do you know all the kata there are to know?"

In Matsubayashi ryu, I do, all eighteen of the system's syllabus of empty hand kata.Now, I also know that in Okinawa they teach some not on the syllabus, and I do know a total of about sixty-four Okinawan and Japanese kata,some better than others to be sure.But aain, the context of mystatement is'in Matsubayashi ryu', and this was understood by those who came in at the beginning of the thread.

Again, you show me whom you have never met, hostility.And to think we had the same teacher of our teachers.You ought to learn what courtesy is.

Then you wuote someone who is not me, saying Passai or Kusanku is a 'night fighting kata.'

I never said that, do you know how to read signatures on posts?Apparently you do not, from the experience on the SRSI Journal Thread when you accused me of writing the article Elmar Schmeisser, Sixth Dan Shotokan, did on Aikido.

Get a clue here, fellow, you have some serious insecurity issues and ego problems, and maybe dyslexia as well.

If you're going to quote what I said, misspellings and all, at least quote me.Not Jim Kass and others.

Then you Quote someone else, saying the kata has blocks and counters, and say, umm, shouldn't all kata have thse characteristics?'

Yes, I believe they do, but Sir, youneed to answer the ones who actually posted those things, not me who did not say them.

Then you say Joe Swift has done his homework , which in fact he has, meybe you noticed that Joe is in fact on the board of the SRSI Journal.

Tell you what; maybe you should do yours before posting nonsense to and about me again.

Kusanku

kusanku
16th January 2001, 05:12
Jim shows Robert to himself.

Enlightenment is the mirror of one's self.'

Now That was funny.:D

ROTFL!

John

Doug Daulton
17th January 2001, 20:25
Originally posted by kusanku ... I would also like to explain for your benefit ... that Mr. Doug Daulton, the Moderator of this Forum, graciously acceded to my request to do a separate thread on each Shorin Ryu kata, and that my comments on these threads basically refer to this style's versions of these kata.

And to their placement in this modern system of kata, one of whose antecedents was however, Choki Motobu, one of Mr. Nagamine's teachers. ... M. Daulton is a ranked yudansha inn the system I am speaking on here, and I presume he will take me to task if I screw up really bad in my exposition.
Originally posted by Jim Kass ... I think you may have taken a few things out of context?

This would be very easy to do if you only looked at this thread, Mr. Vengel has expressed VERY CLEARLY what the intent was and why Mr. Daulton started breaking out every kata of a Shorin Ryu system. (see the Naihanchi thread as this one started this process).
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot ... I posted my opinion because I thought someone might like to hear another side to it.............I guess not.

Messrs. Vengel, Kass and Rousselot:

Each of you has a valuable point of view which deserves a forum. So let's keep things positive. As forum moderator, I'd like to offer a few points of direction/clarification ...

1. RE: The threads titled ... KATA: (insert name)
While the initial threads do, with the exception of Sanchin, reference the kata found within Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu; it was and is not my intention for these forums to focus on Shorin-ryu in general or Matsubayashi-ryu in specific. Quite the contrary, I would very much like to see threads for the many kata found in the other schools across Okinawa.

That said, as mentioned my Messrs. Kass and Vengel, I can now see where comments would seem to be directed to this specific subset of kata (Matsubayashi-ryu). For the sake of clarity in the future, I request statements regarding "all" of anything be more specific. IE .. "all Okinawan kata" or "all Matsubayashi-ryu kata".

I also hope Mr. Rousellot and others to submit their own kata threads to me and I will make them "official" E-Budo Okinawan Martial Arts Forum threads. This should be a forum for Shorin-ryu (Matsubayashi, Kobayashi, Shobayashi ...), Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Ryuei-ryu and ALL of the Okinawan karate ryuha.

2. Snide remarks vs. Appropriate criticism
E-budo is a place of free speech and idea sharing. It serves no one's interests to start sniping at one another ... a practice in which all three of you engaged. If each of you reread all of the posts, you'll see what I mean. That said, it is important to realize that "scholarship", which is what we are all engaged in at some level, does not come without challenges and criticism. So, keep challenging one another on points of fact ... even one another's credentials/authority if need be ... but leave the personal attacks in your heads.

A few of the lessons I've learned about providing criticism/challenge of facts ... <ul><li>Spell-check whenever possible, particularly if the reply is going to be lengthy. I tend to write responses in an Outlook e-mail and then use the Outlook spell-checker before I post. Once it is spell-checked, I cut and paste it into the E-budo window and post. It doesn't catch everything, but it helps. This process also helps me temper my thoughts before I post.<li>Break your posts into digestible chunks ... usually 3-5 sentence paragraphs. It helps the reader follow your train of thought better and can help head off misunderstandings before they occur.<li> If quoting someone else ... provide a citation or link. This is standard research practice. It is not enough to say Nagamine Shoshin said "XYZ, PDQ". When did he say it and to whom? <li> If you know you are treading on thin ice ... don't stomp your feet. In other words if you know your question is going to raise some hackles, at least ask it courteously. <li> E-mail and BB posts are, at best, a difficult medium of communication. So provide a significant margin of error when reading something that has been posted. Avoid reacting to what you might consider subtext ... as one generally doesn't have the benefit of non-verbal cues to tell them if someone is seriously calling them a fool ... or just pulling their leg. <li> When in doubt, send the message privately ... don't make it a public issue unless you have your facts straight. The one who suffers most is you. <li> Take a deep breath before you hit the "Reply" button. Sure, you can go back and edit a post, but it is best to get it as close to right as possible the first time. Then you don't need to waste time explaining yourself later.</ul>
OK ... stepping out of my moderator role.

Thanks,

__________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 01-20-2001 at 05:26 PM]

Doug Daulton
17th January 2001, 20:36
Originally posted by Joe Swift ... This is probably as clear as MUD, but I hope you can wade through it! Maybe the following will help:

Thanks,

Joe,

Excellent post as always. Thanks. At the end of the post you seemed to be refering us to an outside resource (URL maybe?) However, the link did not come through (see above quote).

Were you teasing/torturing us? :D

__________________
Doug Daulton


[Edited by Doug Daulton on 01-20-2001 at 05:27 PM]

Doug Daulton
17th January 2001, 21:20
Originally posted by Jari Virta ... I was told that the techniques in this kata may have been created for fighting in the dark (especially the "seeking/searching hands" techniques), any opinions? Mr. Virta,
This was one of the explanations offered to me for the kata Passai. Here, I think it is important for one to expand the idea of searching hands beyond fighting at night. While "sagwaa-di" (one Uchinanchu term for "searching hands'), can certainly apply to night-fighting, I think it is also generally develops one's kinesthetic awareness (the ability to feel movements of the limbs and body).

In my opinion, kinesthetic awareness is at the core of all budo, not just Okinawan karate. In the heat of combat, one cannot always rely on sight. Even in broad daylight, it is important to know where your body is in space relative to the objects around you. Think about the quarterback who "feels" the pass rush and steps up to avoid a sack.

This lesson hit home to me with an former judo partner who is legally blind. His standing technique is solid, but his ne-waza (mat technique) is devastating. This is because he never had to look for the openings .. he only relied on feeling the opponent relax or tense or whatever was needed to create the opening. Once he felt the opening, he was on you before you knew what hit you.

I work under the assumption that Okinawan karate teaches one to fight in a "phone booth". That is very, very close in ...so close that even in broad daylight one might not be able to see what is going on. Rather they may need to be able to gauge the opponent's strengths, weaknesses and intention through touch rather than line of sight.

I know this may sound esoteric and "sixth-sense"-ish, but it isn't. It is simply tuning your awareness to another channel ... touch. The skin is the body's largest organ and it serves only two primary purposes ... (1) Protection/cooling of your interior organs ... and (2) The collection and transmission of sensory data to the brain.
Originally posted by Jim Kass ... The only thing I can relate to the searching hand remark would be the technique, kagite uke (hooking hand block), that technique would be very useful in total darkness? Agreed. Also, I think this hands and feet are both at play in the kagite uke.
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot ... I disagree that any kata is a "night fighting" kata. If so does that mean that the teacher that only practiced kusanku could only fight at night? Or even the person whom the kata is named after, did Kusanku only fight at night? I doubt it.

A true technique should work anytime anywhere. Let's face it, you never know when you will be attacked and you certainly won't have time to think about switching over to your night techniques when you are attacked at night. Agreed. All techniques should be able to be applied any time of day. Isolation of a technique as "night-fighting" or "fighting against a wall" (Naihanchi) is unnecessarily restricting and perhaps even dangerous if, as Mr. Rousselot suggests, the practitioner stops to think and switch fighting modes.

That said, I do think some kata and waza lend themselves to introducing the student to a particular concept ... in this case Passai and "searching hands/feet". Once someone understands the concept, they should start to see it cascade across other techniques and kata ... in most cases this cascade is very subtle.

I hope this helps. Great thread everyone!

_____________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 01-22-2001 at 11:21 AM]

Doug Daulton
17th January 2001, 21:33
From "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do" by Shoshin Nagamine (P. 195) ... The composer of this dateless kata is unknown. It, however, continues to be cherished by karatemen around Tomari village. shuto-waza (knife-hand techniques) and speedy movements distinguish this kata from the others. (ED. Matsubayashi-ryu Kata)
This was a favorite of Sensei Kyan.

What did other founders/senior teachers of other styles have to say about Passai?

_________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 01-20-2001 at 05:13 PM]

Jari Virta
22nd January 2001, 16:03
Originally posted by Doug Daulton
I think it is also generally develops one's kinesthetic awareness (the ability to feel movements of the limbs and body).

So, in effect you think (the sagurite) it is the Okinawan equivalent to trapping hand-techniques of some Filipino Arts, Wing Tsun and such?

Doug Daulton
22nd January 2001, 17:17
Originally posted by Jari Virta ...So, in effect you think (the sagurite) it is the Okinawan equivalent to trapping hand-techniques of some Filipino Arts, Wing Tsun and such?

While I am not completly familar with Filipino arts or Wing Tsun, I think my answer would be "Yes, I think they are similar." I have worked with two-man "push hands" drills and I think that Passai works some of the same principles in a one-man form.

Sorry to be so long-winded in my original reply. :D

Regards,

twayman
5th October 2005, 22:39
Wow, what a gem. I hope no one mind me bringing this one back to life.

In our school (Kobyashi-Ryu) we study Passai Sho and Dai. Recently we have learned Koryu Passai. We have exercises that address specific areas of the kata and practice the bunkai in these exercises. Some of the things we have found works well as throws, some as grabs, block and even “night fighting”. Some of the clearer “night techniques” or feeling technique we have see are the “feeling feet” before the double strikes and the very end of the kata (sho), the three “passai grabs at the very end.” Mind you that these same techniques work equally well in other situations. I.E. “feeling feet” used to sweep then the double strike could be interpreted as pushing or even pulling. One exercise we do is the kata without most of the turns and removing the cat-stances this exercise really brings out the “phone-booth fighting” aspects of the kata.

A good way to find the oyo bunkai that I have tried is doing this (or any) kata 250 times or more in a row. It takes a few hours so be sure to set aside some time without interruptions but, some of the things that are reviled are truly stunning. It’s interesting to find technique that at once “only” looked like a block can be seen as a strike, or a break or other things. To me these exercises help make the kata technique all inclusive and adaptable to most situations.

One other thing to try is do the kata backwards. Start with the last technique then work your way backwards. (I know some of you will say what the f@%^) but try it.

Frankly, I feel that if a practitioner spent a whole life learning and studying a single kata only the surface would be scratched but, man you would know that kata!!!

Ed Gingras
10th October 2005, 09:21
I was taught a version of this kata many years ago (around 1972) by Sensei Soken. The overall meaning of the kata was to 'breach the castle walls'.
The meaning was to 'break out' when surrounded. The last few moves were soft but firm. This allowed quick reaction to anything touched and was often used in a dark room. One of the more important aspects of Passai Sho and Passai Dai is that they make use of certain principles from Naihanchi kata and Pinon Kata.
v/r
Edward Gingras
Okinawa, Japan

woolie
10th October 2005, 12:18
One of the more important aspects of Passai Sho and Passai Dai is that they make use of certain principles from Naihanchi kata and Pinon Kata.
v/r
Edward Gingras
Okinawa, Japan
Gingras Sensei,

Could you elaborate on these principles at all please?

Many thanks,

twayman
10th October 2005, 17:31
Mr. Woolston,

I hope I am not out of line for jumping in here, as your question was directed at Gingras Sensei. But for what it is worth here is my take on the connections between the three systems.

Regarding Pinan katas. I highly doubt that Passai makes use from any aspects from the Pinan katas. From my understanding the Pinan katas were developed by Itosu Sensei around 1900’s in order to help facilitate karate in public schools. IMHO it would make sense that the Pinans make use of aspects from Passai, and not the reverse. May be the same for Naihanchi but, I’m a little fuzzy on the Naihanchi origins… well on Passai also for that matter.

Anyway…

Here is an article from Joe Swift regarding the evolution of the Naihanchi kata
http://www.usatka.com/nafadi2.htm

Regarding principals used Naihanchi, applied to Passai. I can only speak form my personal understanding and what I have learned over the years so, if there are errors in my logic please for give me and feel free to jump in as you see fit.

We use Naihanchi as a “base or foundation” kata in our school. By this I mean most aspects of our style that we learn is derived or can be traced back from/to Naihanchi. Some of the basics learned in Naihanchi are refined in Passai. For instance in Naihanchi Nidan. The techniques with in the center of the kata where the closed fist placed next to the laying hand is seen at the opening of Passai. In Passai the technique can suggest a block while striking or a throw and is not as noticeable in Naihanchi. In Passai Dai there is the reaching elbow strike that can be interpreted as a refinement of the elbow strikes in Naihanchi Ichidan. The laying hands block/strike in Naihanchi Ichidan can be seen in Passai just prior to executing a Passai grab/joint lock. Many principles can be seen as crossovers between the katas one just has to look and apply.

An interesting thing I have noticed with the interpretations of Naihanchi Ichidan are trying to adjust oyo bunkai to work on a linear plane, “hence fighting against the wall.” IMHO it makes more sense to use the technique as pulling or pushing then attacking to the front with your vitals (front) masked from the attacker. Now the laying hand at the start can be seen as an eye rake or an inverted shuto. Steps become stomps… etc. (lots of goodies) :)

An interesting thing is the definition for Passai “breaching the fortress.” And then as Gingras Sensei states it “The meaning was to 'break out' when surrounded.” This very “definition” comes in to action at the start of both kata. Imagine being in a restrained situation, as if surrounded by multiple attackers or in a confined area (phone booth fighting) and breaking out the first five or so technique. Defiantly, breaching the fortress!

I don’t know if this helps or adds to the confusion but my 2 cents anyway.

robertmrivers
12th October 2005, 22:12
Hello all

I learned that Passai means to penetrate the fortress, as many of you have already discussed and I think this is accurate. However, I was also told that there are many "misconceptions" about this and many other kata. One misconception is the "breaking down the castle walls" to mean breaking out of the castle (or the many variations of this concept). There is no reason to break "out of" a castle...we would break in.

Also, I hadn't heard the "night fighting" applied to Passai...usually people apply this to Kusanku...which I learned is still an incorrect perception of the kata regardless of which kata it is applied to. This is in line with the "fighting against the wall" concept or the "fighting in the rice paddies" concept of Naihanchi. These are all incorrect...again...as I was taught. American students simply mis-interpret a lot of what they are taught...and because many are so many generations from an indigenous source, it carries on into future generations.

Not to repeat myself...but as I was taught the fortress we are penetrating is the body...the guard...the strengths of a persons kamae. Those weaknesses we are exploiting in the "fortess" are the joints and pressure points associated with Okinawan martial methodology. Thus, Tuite and Kyusho are important aspects of this kata and other advanced kata.

I can't comment on everything discussed because there were so many good points made and my opinion is certainly just one of many. I thought I would contibute something small. I'll just chime in if something interesting catches my eye.

I know someone will ask, so my opinion is developed from training and friendship with the following sources:
Shorin Ryu: Bill Hayes, student of Shimabukuro Eizo, student of Kyan Chotoku, Motobu Choki, and Miyagi Chojun
Association with several dear friends from Kobayashi and Matsumura Seito
and from Motobu Ryu via Motobu Chosei, Soke, sitting in my living room.

Best

Rob Rivers


Robert M Rivers
Shin Dojo
Tri-State Yudanshikai Kenkyukai

twayman
12th October 2005, 23:20
Also, I hadn't heard the "night fighting" applied to Passai...usually people apply this to Kusanku...which I learned is still an incorrect perception of the kata regardless of which kata it is applied to. This is in line with the "fighting against the wall" concept or the "fighting in the rice paddies" concept of Naihanchi. These are all incorrect...again...as I was taught. American students simply mis-interpret a lot of what they are taught...and because many are so many generations from an indigenous source, it carries on into future generations.

Good point Robert.

I think the more one does these (advance) kata the more is revealed.

A little story… Just last night I was teaching my students. We were working on Naihanchi bunkai. I was showing a joint lock technique from Naihanchi Nidan while during the lesson my attention was drawn to Kusanku Sho that had basically the same joint lock while executing a kick. I tried the lock on my students and noticed the body reactions, always the same. They were basically drawn right into the kick so as to kick elbow and shoulder joints. This in a self-defense situation makes sense ‘destroy the weapons’ or the entire arm in this case and all within a fraction of a second.

On interpretation of the meaning.

IMHO I have heard the “fighting in the rice paddies” or the “fighting against the wall” concept, I personally never really bought that and/or don’t tell or teach it. Why would I want to fight in a rice field anyway? The idea of fighting against a wall does have some martial merit to it although; I don’t actually think that is what was intended. Night fighting again has martial merit to it but, I do see other more practical applications to the technique.

I guess in all the more you theorize about the techniques; the more doors that are open making the kata more useable. Which, in self-defense, is my main goal. As always I am always a student and trying to learn what I can. It is just incredible how much can be found in the kata.

Timothy.G.B.
13th October 2005, 00:15
I always appreciate links to videos, so if anyone is interested in seeing Chibana-Ha Passai kata, as taught by the late Higa Yuchoku Dai Sensei to Onaga Yoshimitsu Sensei, please visit the following link to my teacher's website:

http://www.shinjinbukan.net/

Hit the "multimedia" link and you will see Passai Dai performed by several different people.

Interesting discussion regarding interpretations of the kata moves.

Best,
Tim

ryukyu2000
13th October 2005, 00:19
Rob-san:

Great to hear from you. Don't the principles you mention make so much sense when shared by our seniors. I recently had a yudansha in another system mention to me about Naihanchi and fighting with the back against the wall ... until we went through some of the basic principles of body change, cone of vision, cone of power, etc. Ah - the light bulbs started to go off.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY

twayman
13th October 2005, 00:20
Tim,

I have always wanted to view the videos on that site but can never open them... what viewer is needed? I use Windows Media Player and always comes up with an incompatable version message.

Timothy.G.B.
13th October 2005, 00:28
Hi Todd:

Not being a computer savvy kind of guy, I don't know what to say. Have you tried downloading them by right-clicking and "save target as"?

I wish I could help you out better than that, but it is all I can suggest.

Tim

twayman
13th October 2005, 00:32
Thanks Tim,

But who ever runs the site has disabled the right click function. I'll shoot an e-mail over to the web-master to see what's up.

Again thanks.

TimoS
13th October 2005, 15:15
I don't know which browser you're using, but at least on my Firefox browser it shows you the address of the file when you put your mouse over the link. Then just write that address to e.g. Windows Media Player (File -> Open URL). Works for me at least. I can't save the file, but I can view it and that's quite OK :) Interesting videos, by the way

Blackwood
13th October 2005, 15:48
I haven't been able to get any of that to work. I've tried all sorts of things, but I keep getting version worng messages, and no version can be found that will run it. Very frustrating. I have explorer and FoxFire and no luck.

TimoS
13th October 2005, 19:19
Weird. So you've tried e.g. this link: http://xpstream.winisp.net/OKDGuest/Passai_dai_Onaga_82.wmv ?

twayman
13th October 2005, 21:42
Tim,

That one worked if I saved the file on my computer. Thanks.

woolie
22nd October 2005, 09:32
Going back to the various 'versions' of Passai that are practised, could anyone expand on the lineages of the kata?

For example, I am particularly interested in the Matsubayashi Ryu version which, I believe, would follow something like:

Anan?: Kosaku Matsumora: Kodatsu Iha: Shoshin Nagamine

Could anyone offer any further insights?

Respectfully,

twayman
24th October 2005, 17:36
Steve,

Check out this thread see if it helps.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30848&page=1&pp=15&highlight=passai+qua

Timothy.G.B.
24th October 2005, 23:12
Here is a link to another version of Passai for those interested:

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kata.htm

In a club I used to train at, many years ago, we practiced a version of this kata and called it Passai Sho. It was slightly different than this one but the basic form was the same.

So many different versions of one kata!

twayman
24th October 2005, 23:38
Passai - "To Breach a Fortress"
Passai means to "thrust asunder" or "penetrate the fortress". The original composer of Passai is unknown though legend has it that Bushi Matsumura (1797-1889) brought the original form (Dai) from China. The form is from the Shuri-Te lineage though Passai also continues to be cherished by karateka around the Tomari village. Knife-hand techniques and speedy movements distinguish this kata from the others. This form contains repeated switching of the blocking arms, motions that represent the feeling of shifting from a disadvantageous position to an advantageous one, a feeling implying a will similar to that needed to break through an enemies fortress.

The shorter (Sho) version of Passai was developed by Yasutsune Itosu (1830-1915). This version stresses the use of the hips in generating power and changing positions quickly. It teaches how to protect oneself by shifting so as not to expose the vital areas. Other techniques contained in this kata are used for night fighting and defense against the bo (wooden staff). The defense against the bo is performed with the open palm and, as often for this purpose, require strength. Passai Sho should be practiced after mastering Passai Dai. The two kata form a series differing in the point that Passai Dai outwardly shows power and solemnity while Passai Sho, in the calmness of its techniques contains an inner strength.

http://www.geocities.com/matsubayashiryu/kata_history.html

Steve, I found this while searching the net.

The best I could find is that the original passai comes from:

China (unknown source) - Bushi Matsumura - Chotoku Kyan (and others) - Nagamine Sensei (matsubayashi)

Tim, Interesting version of passai, never seen that one and it differs quite a bit from our passai sho version.

Jussi Häkkinen
25th October 2005, 00:06
China (unknown source) - Bushi Matsumura - Chotoku Kyan (and others) - Nagamine Sensei (matsubayashi)

There isn't Matsumura no Passai in Kyan Chotoku's line. Kyan learned his Passai from Oyadomari Kokan.

twayman
25th October 2005, 00:37
There isn't Matsumura no Passai in Kyan Chotoku's line. Kyan learned his Passai from Oyadomari Kokan.

Thanks, I stand corrected. I see where Matsumura and Oyandomari had learned it from Kishin Teruya where Matsumura retained Teruya no Passai and Oyadomari shortened the kata.

Sorry for any misinformation trying to find some of these lineages gets a little difficult.

Rob Alvelais
25th October 2005, 03:09
Looks like oyadomari bassai

Rob


Here is a link to another version of Passai for those interested:

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kata.htm

In a club I used to train at, many years ago, we practiced a version of this kata and called it Passai Sho. It was slightly different than this one but the basic form was the same.

So many different versions of one kata!

Rob Alvelais
25th October 2005, 03:20
I see some problems with that page, Todd.

It lists kata created by Kenwa Mabuni (Aoyagi, Jyuroku) as Shurite and not in the Shito Ryu column. It doesn't list pinans as in the Shito syllabus. The Seisan in the Shito syllabus is of Naha-te origin. It's very similar to the goju seisan. Odd.

Don't buy the stick defense thing for Jutte.


"Kwanku is okinawan pronouncation of Chinese word Kusanku" HUH???

Interesting.

Rob






Steve, I found this while searching the net.

The best I could find is that the original passai comes from:

China (unknown source) - Bushi Matsumura - Chotoku Kyan (and others) - Nagamine Sensei (matsubayashi)

Tim, Interesting version of passai, never seen that one and it differs quite a bit from our passai sho version.

Sochin
25th October 2005, 14:52
Originally Posted by Timothy.G.B.
Here is a link to another version of Passai for those interested:

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kata.htm

This kata is called Matsumura Passai in Richard Kim's Shorin-ji ryu, although it has the blocking sequence from our Passai Dai in it which is strange.

Sensei Kim taught us, Passai Dai and Sho, Matsumura Passai and Oyadomari Passai.

Rob Alvelais
25th October 2005, 15:18
The Kim Shorinji guys out here do a matsumura passai that looks very much like Todd's Passai Dai. That is, it has upward blocks instead of chops and nukite in the beginning.

The kata that Mr. Hobbes is doing looks like Oyadomari bassai. It doesn't have the upward blocks and has the pivoting on the rear leg of the cat stance at the end.

Rob



This kata is called Matsumura Passai in Richard Kim's Shorin-ji ryu, although it has the blocking sequence from our Passai Dai in it which is strange.

Sensei Kim taught us, Passai Dai and Sho, Matsumura Passai and Oyadomari Passai.

twayman
25th October 2005, 17:36
The most famous Tomari-te masters were both the chikundun peikin Kosaku Matsumora (1829-1898), Kokan Oyadomari (1827-1905) and Gikei Yamazato (1835-1905). They were also disciples of the Chinese Annan (also Ahnan or Anan) and of Ason, a Chinese sergeant. According Tomari-te tradition, Annan was a castaway from a shipwreck in the Okinawa coast. Being a pirate, he that took refuge in the cemetery of the Tomari's mountains, starting to live in a cave (a tradition says that this was the master that taught the kata Chinto to Sokon Matsumura). Matsumora and Oyadomari were also disciples from two local masters, Kishin Teruya (1804-1864) and Giko Uku (1800-1850). From Teruya they would learn Passai, Rohai, and Wanshu, and with Uku the kata Naifanchi. According Shoshin Nagamine (in "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters", Tuttle Pub, Boston, 2000), Teruya was considered by Matsumora as his true master. Matsumora was also an expert in Jo-jutsu (fight method with a short staff) from Jigen-ryu.

A history repeated in several Okinawan sources teaches that the successor of Anan was Kosaku Matsumora.

Matsumora and Oyadomari were close friends, and Yamazato followed both, and by this reason he exchanged kata and techniques, and each one ordered its students to workout with the another, so Tomari-te become a unique system. There are small differences between the Tomarite of Matsumora and Oyadomari, for example, this later had his own version of Passai (known as Oyadomari-no-Passai) while Matsumora preserved the original Tomari Passai, that is shorter (we preserve these two versions as Tomari-no-Passai Dai and Tomari-no-Passai Sho).

In trying to find the origins of Passai kata I have found this passage (or simular) in a few places. Does anyone know if this has been confirmed?

Sochin
25th October 2005, 19:10
Yes, I did get confused...the opening blocks are downward like Oyadomari and MP has upward blocks. But then there are MP elements later that caught my attention and threw me off!

Sorry about that...

Timothy.G.B.
25th October 2005, 22:30
Here is a link to a Shorinjiryu Passai from Richard Kim's lineage:

http://www.bakerracinekarate.com/mpeg/patsai.mpeg

The interesting thing about this kata is that although it is called Patsai Dai, it is virtually identical (at least in pattern and number of moves) to the kata that we call Passai Sho.

Here is a link to our Passai Sho:

http://shinjinbukan.net/

Just go to the multimedia page and click on Passai no Sho.

I have compared this kata with Shotokan Passai Dai and noticed the same thing. In the karate that I am learning Passai Sho is the "more basic" of the two so it is interesting to see it called Patsai Dai here.

Best,
Tim

twayman
25th October 2005, 22:40
Tim,

Same thing here that kata looks close to our passai sho, where our passai dia is the "more complex version."

Rob Alvelais
25th October 2005, 23:49
Here is a link to a Shorinjiryu Passai from Richard Kim's lineage:

http://www.bakerracinekarate.com/mpeg/patsai.mpeg




Guys, that's the JKA's Bassai Dai. It's one of the infamous "Blue Videos". AFAIK, these videos were produced by the JKA and someone put up some unauthorized copies on the web, and from there, they spread across the internet like wildfire.




The interesting thing about this kata is that although it is called Patsai Dai, it is virtually identical (at least in pattern and number of moves) to the kata that we call Passai Sho.



I talked about that here: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=365764&postcount=43

Ondrej talke about it earlier in ther thread here:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362805&postcount=19



Here is a link to our Passai Sho:

http://shinjinbukan.net/

Just go to the multimedia page and click on Passai no Sho.

Looks like Shito ryu/Shotokan's Bassai Dai and Kobayashi Shorin Ryu's Passai Sho.


I have compared this kata with Shotokan Passai Dai and noticed the same thing. In the karate that I am learning Passai Sho is the "more basic" of the two so it is interesting to see it called Patsai Dai here.

Best,
Tim

The Shotokan/ Shito Ryu Bassai Sho is more basic, IMO than the
Shoto/Shito Bassai Dai aka Kobayashi Shorin Ryu Passai Sho.

Tim's and Todd's Passai Dai = what has become known as Matsumura Bassai.

Rob

twayman
26th October 2005, 00:03
Thanks Rob for tying all that together. With all that said it is interesting to see all the different styles and the differences/similarities in the Passai kata.

Rob,

I remember reading/hearing about the "Blue Videos" being let loose on the net. Found the whole set at one time and went back then they were gone that link Tim posted is the first time I have seen them in a while. If you get a chance do you know anything about my post #39?

Rob Alvelais
26th October 2005, 17:28
Two people I'd turn to to ask about it. Mario McKenna and Joe Swift. Mario is on this board, hopefully he'll read this and respond.

I've heard of such things, but I've not seen anything clear and definitive. Mario and Joe have the ability to read the old books newspapers and records that were printed in Japanese, so I'd look to them.

Rob


Thanks Rob for tying all that together. With all that said it is interesting to see all the different styles and the differences/similarities in the Passai kata.

Rob,

I remember reading/hearing about the "Blue Videos" being let loose on the net. Found the whole set at one time and went back then they were gone that link Tim posted is the first time I have seen them in a while. If you get a chance do you know anything about my post #39?

twayman
26th October 2005, 17:43
Good suggestion Rob. I sent Joe Swift an e-mail to see if he has the time to give some input.

Sochin
27th October 2005, 02:10
Here is a link to a Shorinjiryu Passai from Richard Kim's lineage:

http://www.bakerracinekarate.com/mpeg/patsai.mpeg


Yes Tim,

Of the 4 Passai kata Sensei Kim taught us, that one is Patsai Dai. Our Sho is shorter and much less complex...I don't see how it could ever be a Dai version. Very interesting...

Timothy.G.B.
27th October 2005, 20:57
Hi Ted:

Years ago, when I was doing another karate, it was under the Richard Kim lineage. Not Shorinji ryu per se...but too complicated to get into here:)

I learned 3 different Passai katas and it wasn't until I started learning Okinawan Shorin (Chibana-ha Shorinryu) that I realized the Passai Dai kata I had been taught before was actually Passai Sho in the karate I was learning.

The three that I learned in the Richard Kim lineage were called Passai, Passai Sho and Passai Dai. The only one of the three that remotely resembles what I am learning now is the one that was called Passai Dai (i.e. Passai Sho, in Chibana-ha Shorinryu). The Passai Dai that I am learning now does not resemble any of the three versions I learned before under the Richard Kim lineage.

Best,
Tim

the Khazar Kid
22nd March 2006, 20:33
In Hwang Kee's "Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do Volume 1" he says this form's original name was "Pal Che". Pal meant "selection of the best choice", or "fast". "Che" meant "collect". Movements were selected from the most famous and effective of Southern Shaolin boxing. The characteristics of Bassai are fast and light, in contrast to an apparently Northern-based form like Naihanchi which is heavy and powerful.

Jesse Peters

the Khazar Kid
22nd March 2006, 20:48
Interesting to hear about the lion and leopard boxing connections, the only animal I had previously heard of in connection with Passai was the snake, coiling uncoiling striking fast and poisonous. I've definitely practiced this as a snake, I'll try practicing it as a lion or leopard soon and see how it feels different.

Jesse Peters

Sanseru
23rd March 2006, 16:43
Since Swift-san hasn't replied, I'll try my best to answer this question - but reserve the right to be wrong as I am primarily a "Nahate" guy :)

_____________________________________________________

Ok, at the turn of the century Itosu Anko included two Passai kata in his school syllabus: Passai dai and sho. Enter Chibana Choshin (ala Tim's lineage), a student of Itosu who learned Itosu's versions, PLUS an additional version called Tawada no Passai. This is corroborated by Murakami Katsumi a student of Chibana who lives in Fukuoka, who Joe-san and I visited on several occassions. At any rate, Murakami stated that when Chibana demo-ed this kata in fron of Itosu, Itosu remarked that it was really good "Ti" and that he should hang on to it. The confusion occurs because Chibana took Itosu's advice and relabeled Tawada no Passai as Passai Dai (this is the Passai demonstrated in Nakasone Genwa's 1938 Karatedo Taikan). He then took Itosu's Passai Dai and relabeled it Passai Sho. Confusing, I know. Itosu's Passai Sho then fell into disuse in Chibana's school as far as I know.


Hope this helps.

Nyuck3X
23rd March 2006, 20:17
It hasn't fallen out completely. I think Miyahira and Iha still teach it. It's
also known as Passai Gwa. Shimabukuro Sensei learned it from Nakama
Sensei and added it to his syllabus. I learned it a few years ago but
forgot all about it. Now I'm regreting it.

Peace.

Blackwood
23rd March 2006, 20:43
Miyahira's students still practice Koryu Passai, which is supposedly the third one. There is another entire thread on it in this topic.

Shorinman
24th March 2006, 15:33
It hasn't fallen out completely. I think Miyahira and Iha still teach it. It's
also known as Passai Gwa. Shimabukuro Sensei learned it from Nakama
Sensei and added it to his syllabus. I learned it a few years ago but
forgot all about it. Now I'm regreting it.

Peace.

According to Iha Sensei, he calls it Gusukuma no Passai.
Here is a version of the kata by Joki Uema Sensei's group from their taikai held last year. (http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/karate_meta/b04021401_karate_shiroma_pasai.asx) Uema Sensei was a student of Chibana and Gusukuma. It's very close to the version I practice.

To see more video of the
Shorinryu Shubukan Uema Karate Dojo - Karate / Kobudo Enbu Taikai (http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate_top.htm)

Passai Gwa is just another way of saying Passai Sho but the question is, what version?

Does anyone know if this kata [above] was known as Passai sho taught by Itosu before Chibana added the Tawada no Passai?

Mario is right, very confusing. Who's on first; What's on second... :)

Thank you in advance.

Best Regards,
Larry

Blackwood
24th March 2006, 16:30
Here's the link to the previous discussion of Koryu Bassai here:

Koryu Bassai (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30848)

I watched the video link you provided. The kata is identical to the one that Miyahira's students learn that we call Koryu Bassai. When I asked Iha Seikichi Hanshi where he learned it and he told me from his teacher Gusukuma.

Rob Alvelais
24th March 2006, 17:13
According to Iha Sensei, he calls it Gusukuma no Passai.
Here is a version of the kata by Joki Uema Sensei's group from their taikai held last year. (http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/karate_meta/b04021401_karate_shiroma_pasai.asx) Uema Sensei was a student of Chibana and Gusukuma. It's very close to the version I practice.


That one, above, looks similar to our Bassai Sho, in Shito Ryu.



Passai Gwa is just another way of saying Passai Sho but the question is, what version?

Does anyone know if this kata [above] was known as Passai sho taught by Itosu before Chibana added the Tawada no Passai?


Well, in Shito Ryu, it seems that the kata you link to above is Bassai Sho.
In a conversation with John Sells, he says that what we shito guys call Matsumura Bassai is the kata that's also known as Tawada Bassai.


So, can we say:

Passai Gwa=Gukusuma Passai= Koryu Passai=Bassai Sho?

Rob

Blackwood
24th March 2006, 17:29
No, we can't, because Passai Sho is a different kata in many styles. It may have been the original Passai Sho, but is not today. I think the rest of the equation stands though.

Rob Alvelais
24th March 2006, 17:36
No, we can't, because Passai Sho is a different kata in many styles. It may have been the original Passai Sho, but is not today. I think the rest of the equation stands though.

Right, I recognize that in the Shorinkan, at least the Shroinkan Passai Sho = Shito (and many other style's ) Bassai Dai.


So, how about?

Passai Gwa= Gukusuma Passai = Koryu Passai = Shito Bassai Sho?

Rob

Prince Loeffler
24th March 2006, 18:07
According to Iha Sensei, he calls it Gusukuma no Passai.
Here is a version of the kata by Joki Uema Sensei's group from their taikai held last year. (http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/karate_meta/b04021401_karate_shiroma_pasai.asx) Uema Sensei was a student of Chibana and Gusukuma. It's very close to the version I practice.

To see more video of the
Shorinryu Shubukan Uema Karate Dojo - Karate / Kobudo Enbu Taikai (http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate_top.htm)

Passai Gwa is just another way of saying Passai Sho but the question is, what version?

Does anyone know if this kata [above] was known as Passai sho taught by Itosu before Chibana added the Tawada no Passai?

Mario is right, very confusing. Who's on first; What's on second... :)

Thank you in advance.

Best Regards,
Larry


What Ryuha is this group ? I like it. Thanks for the link.

Shorinman
24th March 2006, 19:20
I watched the video link you provided. The kata is identical to the one that Miyahira's students learn that we call Koryu Bassai. When I asked Iha Seikichi Hanshi where he learned it and he told me from his teacher Gusukuma.

Hi Mark,

I don't think I would say "identical" but very close. In the link I provided, there are some extra moves such as double middle blocks. Aikyoshi Shiroma taught it at the NTS 2001 and is slightly different. Also, after the the kagite uke it's different - the way Shiorma taught it after the kagite uke is the same as Passai Sho aka Itosu no Passai. In the link at the end they do the shuto uke towards the front. The way Shiroma taught it was at a (right) 45 degree angle.

If you have the Shidokan 40th anniversary from Okinawa in 1990 on tape or Iha's 20th anniversary in Lansing demonstration on tape from 1996, Shiroma performs the kata and you'll see what I mean in regards to comparing the kata; it's close but not identical. :)

It's good to talk to again.

Best Regards,
Larry

Shorinman
24th March 2006, 19:36
What Ryuha is this group ? I like it. Thanks for the link.

Joki Uema is associated with the Okinawa Shorinryu Karatedo Kyokai via Miyahira. I was first exposed to him in Okinawa in 1997, at a Shorinryu friendship celebration at the Naha citizen's gym. I was very impressed because his group demonstated several times including him which at the time, I believe, was about 75? or 76? years old - not to mention it was very hot especially in August! He was promoted to 10dan in 2000 by the Okinawa Shorinryu Karatedo Kyokai. His son Yasuhiro (9th dan) in on the 2nd link doing naihanchi shodan. That's all I know on him.

Best Regards,
Larry

Blackwood
24th March 2006, 21:21
Sorry, I shouldn't have used 'identical' as there are some minor differences. It is so close that it is obviously the same kata.

I just watched the two clips, the one listed above and the one from the 2004 NTS that Nakasone's dojo performed (followed by the bunkai). Yeah, the angles are a bit different, but then you will always find those little differences between dojo and branches of a style. Close enough that I didn't think it much different, more a matter of tweaking to match up with a particular instructor's philosophy.

Certainly not big differences like we see between our Naihanchi and the one Taba Sensei's dojo does.

Going to be at NTS this summer? I'm already looking forward to it! And I get to work out with Iha Sensei tomorrow afternoon at the Rochester Hills Dojo.

Shorinman
24th March 2006, 22:24
Sorry, I shouldn't have used 'identical' as there are some minor differences. It is so close that it is obviously the same kata.
Yes, minor differences.


Yeah, the angles are a bit different, but then you will always find those little differences between dojo and branches of a style.
I agree.


Going to be at NTS this summer? I'm already looking forward to it! And I get to work out with Iha Sensei tomorrow afternoon at the Rochester Hills Dojo.
No, I know it will be a great time though! I really enjoyed the 1996 and 2001 Anniversary celebrations and have a lot of great memories.

Best Regards,
Larry

Shorinman
24th March 2006, 22:32
That one, above, looks similar to our Bassai Sho, in Shito Ryu.
Rob,

Thank you. This would support/answer my question.

Best Regards,
Larry

upnorthkyosa
25th March 2006, 00:00
In Hwang Kee's "Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do Volume 1" he says this form's original name was "Pal Che". Pal meant "selection of the best choice", or "fast". "Che" meant "collect". Movements were selected from the most famous and effective of Southern Shaolin boxing. The characteristics of Bassai are fast and light, in contrast to an apparently Northern-based form like Naihanchi which is heavy and powerful.

Jesse Peters

I train in TSD and I read the same thing. After reading this thread, I am very skeptical that this information is in any way correct. Perhaps this information traces the roots of Bassai from Okinawa into China, but that is only speculation on my part...

upnorthkyosa
25th March 2006, 00:12
Interesting to hear about the lion and leopard boxing connections, the only animal I had previously heard of in connection with Passai was the snake, coiling uncoiling striking fast and poisonous. I've definitely practiced this as a snake, I'll try practicing it as a lion or leopard soon and see how it feels different.

Jesse Peters

My teacher made the snake link also. I'm not sure where this comes from, because I've only ever heard it in TSD circles...

Timothy.G.B.
27th March 2006, 22:19
According to Iha Sensei, he calls it Gusukuma no Passai.
Here is a version of the kata by Joki Uema Sensei's group from their taikai held last year. (http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/karate_meta/b04021401_karate_shiroma_pasai.asx) Uema Sensei was a student of Chibana and Gusukuma. It's very close to the version I practice.

To see more video of the
Shorinryu Shubukan Uema Karate Dojo - Karate / Kobudo Enbu Taikai (http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate_top.htm)

Passai Gwa is just another way of saying Passai Sho but the question is, what version?

Does anyone know if this kata [above] was known as Passai sho taught by Itosu before Chibana added the Tawada no Passai?

Mario is right, very confusing. Who's on first; What's on second... :)

Thank you in advance.

Best Regards,
Larry

Thanks for the link. I am having problems viewing the files as my Windows Media player will not play the file nor will Real Player.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Tim

Shorinman
28th March 2006, 03:57
Hi Tim,

I'm not sure, it opens with windows media player for me. My pc at work opens directly to windows media player when I click on it and my pc at home prompts me to save it first.

Did you try saving it to your hard drive first?

Best regards,
Larry

Timothy.G.B.
28th March 2006, 20:34
Hi Larry:

Thanks, yes I tried to save it to my hard drive and it still does not work. It sounds like it may be a problem with my media player. I did try to play it with Real Player as well but did not work...

Best,
Tim

Jay Vail
9th April 2006, 02:10
I was told that the techniques in this kata may have been created for fighting in the dark (especially the "seeking/searching hands" techniques), any opinions?


Don't buy that.