View Full Version : marketing the product to the Ladies
Tripitaka of AA
23rd July 2007, 14:56
We occasionally discuss the successful marketing of Shorinji Kempo to the female Kenshi. Perhaps we could take inspiration from this News Item (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/20/take_that_you_brute_bzzt_jeez_lady/). Electric Pink dogi anyone?
Johannes
23rd July 2007, 20:36
Is the ratio of female kenshi really that low?
Steve Williams
23rd July 2007, 21:32
Is the ratio of female kenshi really that low?
In my branch about 10% are female...... we often have females turning up for a small number of lessons, but not too many continue for a long time.....
I think that is typical of "private" branches in the UK, university branches have a much more even split.......
Leelanau
24th July 2007, 06:11
I know what that's like... I'm the only regular female kenshi at my branch. Even though I always do the "women's self defense" demonstration (and people go crazy over it), we never get women volunteering themselves. So... best way to get women? Personally invite them. It might be a psychological thing, but whenever we have had other regular female students, they were friends of other students. Every single damn one.
I only joined to best my sister. I am more man than the rest of them!
tony leith
24th July 2007, 13:13
I'm currently branch master of the Glasgow university club in Scotland. Our gender balance has varied quite a lot over time. Certainly, I would have to admit that female kenshi are a minority in our club, though usually a fairly substantial one.
Difficult to know why there should be this imbalance. I see two (possibly related) issues - recruitment and then retention. Recruitment is an interesting issue. It is possible that men and women might be attracted by different aspects of martial arts practice, and that what you present in demos etc. will make some difference to the chances of them coming along.
At our last freshers demo, for example, at least a few of the female spectators got up and left after they saw nage waza demonstrated in the opening embu. Chances are, in all honesty, that even if they had come along to try a class they wouldn't have stuck with it (though I hasten to add they wouldn't have been asked to do nage waza anytime soon), but it does give one some pause in terms of what we do for demos.
For demonstration purposes, the tendency is to go for the 'spectacular', but maybe deemphasising the demonstration element entirely in favour of participation in a 'drop in' session would be a better way to go.
One general observation about the genders (and i'm perfectly prepared to be shot down in flames for this one, not least by my wife when she reads this..) is that frankly amongst blokes a significant part of our core constituency have been exposed to 'martial arts' through the mass media -i.e. they've seen the movies, have thought 'that looks cool', and have had a long standing vague aspiration to do a martial art. Needless to say, most of them don't perserve when they discover that it involves slightly more effort than sticking a plug in the back of your head ("I know kung fu" - yeah, thanks a bunch, Keanu), but nevertheless it helps to make an initial connection. I'm not saying that this isn't true of women, but it's probably a lot less prevalent.
I also suspect that young women may be somewhat more susceptible to 'what's cool/what's not' re exercise regimes than most males - boxercise, chaebo and capeoira are currently cool, more traditional martial arts aren't. again, I'm not saying that males are at all immune to this sort of thing, just that the same tendency may be a bit less pronounced.
Any female kenshi reading the above is cordially invited to tell me I'm talking bollocks: I wouldn't resent it at all, and it would actually be useful information.
Tony leith
Rob Gassin
24th July 2007, 14:09
There is a lot of truth in Tony's statements. I'll add my observations:
I practise 2 MAs - SK and hapkido. The former is a University based club with few Uni aged kenshi and 0% regular females. The latter is a community based club with a junior class - up to 12yo and a senior class (the eldest member is 65yo), the male:female ratio in the senior class is 60:40.
Why the disparity between the 2 clubs (styles) - I'm not sure but i'll highlight the differences in training methods which may be relevant.
1. SK goho is practised pair form, hapkido is practised single form or against a pad. Therefore more bruising from SK training.
2. SK is practised on carpet, hapkido on rubber mats. Therefore ukemi more painful in SK.
3. More emphasis on proper technique and causing pain with SK Juho than with hapkido juho.
4.More use of soft mat for breakfalls, shoulder throws etc in hapkido.
5. More techniques learnt at an earlier stage in Hapkido eg katate nage is learnt for the first grading.
6. More 'showy' techniques in hapkido - especially kicks, shoulder and hip throws and break falls.
7. More general fitness training at hapkido - stretches, push-ups, sit ups, star jumps, burpies, aerobic training, milling etc.
8. Technique training is much more 'technical' in SK. In hapkido, the student is shown the technique once or twice and then left to practise and develop his own understanding of the technique.
9. Class structure much less regimented in hapkido - warm up then anything goes. In SK - warm up, kihon, line work, goho, juho.
10. more ground fighting in hapkido
My gut feeling is that points 1, 2, 3 and especially 7 are the main reasons why there are more females doing hapkido. If I am right, then the dilemma is that the characteristics that we consider make SK an effective fighting style, are the ones that scare off females.
Nina
24th July 2007, 16:50
Electric Pink dogi anyone?
Then we would probably displace the male kenshi :rolleyes: ...
Steve Williams
24th July 2007, 17:26
Then we would probably displace the male kenshi :rolleyes: ...
but maybe not all of them.... ;)
Steve Williams
24th July 2007, 17:33
I think that Rob's observation number 7 is very true......
Only last week 3 girls/women asked about my class (they do a dance aerobics class at the gym where we train) after me telling them about what we do, and the gym owner (a good friend and ex-martial artist) telling them how hard the lessons are physically and what good self defence/confidence they would gain from doing it and all round trying to "sell" shorinjikempo to them.... they only could ask "but will it get us fit?"........ and my class is known for being very hard training........ both within the BSKF and within the gym where we train......
dirk.bruere
25th July 2007, 00:15
So... best way to get women? Personally invite them. It might be a psychological thing, but whenever we have had other regular female students, they were friends of other students. Every single damn one.
I think that is true generally.
A lot of people find it hard to walk into a martial arts class alone and ask about joining, especially in what is perceived as a ritualistic and alien culture where they don't know the rules. This is especially true in 'real' dojos, as opposed to (say) the local sports hall.
Dirk
Ewok
25th July 2007, 03:56
My gut feeling is that points 1, 2, 3 and especially 7 are the main reasons why there are more females doing hapkido. If I am right, then the dilemma is that the characteristics that we consider make SK an effective fighting style, are the ones that scare off females.
1 and 3 are good things - emphasis on actually doing (I only get bruises when doing 6hrs of embu work, and then its only where I've deflected attacks in the same place a few hundred times) techniques, and doing it against a partner.
2, 4, 7 and 9 are not SK specific - if thats what you see as points to be improved upon, why not do it?
Agree with 7 though - my wife doesn't "like" our dojo because we aren't intense enough. She enjoys the non-stop high pace her last dojo had, along with the goho/juho that would leave you aching for days..... she's kinda masochistic like that ;) That makes you right Tony!
luar
25th July 2007, 13:44
As a side note, we recently have Japanese national who transfered over to our branch. She is a 5th Dan and I believe a former branch master herself. Her movement is absolutely amazing, powerful and inspiring. There isn't anyone of us whose jaw has not dropped from watching her techniques. I cannot imagine a better role model than this.
Rob Gassin
25th July 2007, 14:09
1 and 3 are good things - emphasis on actually doing (I only get bruises when doing 6hrs of embu work, and then its only where I've deflected attacks in the same place a few hundred times) techniques, and doing it against a partner.
2, 4, 7 and 9 are not SK specific - if thats what you see as points to be improved upon, why not do it?
Agree with 7 though - my wife doesn't "like" our dojo because we aren't intense enough. She enjoys the non-stop high pace her last dojo had, along with the goho/juho that would leave you aching for days..... she's kinda masochistic like that ;) That makes you right Tony!
Hi Leon,
The points I made were not necessarily reasons I thing make hapkido more attractive to women. They are merely differences in training methods between the 2 clubs. Points 1,2,3 and 7 are the main ones that IMHO, make Melbourne SK less attractive to girls.
I agree that some of the points are not SK specific (I think point 2 pretty much is. I am not aware of any other style with wrist locks and throws that trains on hard floors). In fact, a lot of the differences I point out are actually differences between traditional Japanese and Korean arts rather than specific to SK and hapkido. For various reasons, including cultural differences and the reasonnably rigid syllabus of SK, some of these points are hard to change. Interestingly, when the senior kenshi of our branch get together to discuss the future direction of the branch, we all agree on things that could be improved but seldom agree on what constitutes improvement or on how to achieve it :rolleyes: .
Cheers,
NB, If your wife likes pain and you only bruise rarely, you should both come and train with us in Melbourne some day :p .
judepeel
25th July 2007, 14:48
Regarding point 10 One of the things I liked about Shorinji Kempo was the lack of ground work, I'd tried a few other martial arts and felt quite uncomfortable in a couple of sessions where some pretty weird men were getting the opportunity to be rather closer to me than I like.
My first Judo lesson involved a 4 quarters hold ( think that's what it was called) with a guy that had hygiene issues and I never went back.
Concentrating on being approachable is good idea as going into that first session is intimidating if there is no-one but guys training
Ewok
25th July 2007, 15:28
NB, If your wife likes pain and you only bruise rarely, you should both come and train with us in Melbourne some day :p .
I'll add Melbourne to our next trip to Aus ;) Gotta do QLD, so I'll have to see if they are training as well.
tony leith
25th July 2007, 16:46
From Jude
Regarding point 10 One of the things I liked about Shorinji Kempo was the lack of ground work, I'd tried a few other martial arts and felt quite uncomfortable in a couple of sessions where some pretty weird men were getting the opportunity to be rather closer to me than I like.
Er, fair point, and not the first time I've heard similar sentiments expressed. I think it's very important (certainly as far as our freshers are concerned) to establish a basis of trust with the people they are training with, and also to make clear that the student is entitled to set some boundaries.
One point that has come up previously re. demos is seiho. I don't think seiho would necessarily be looked at askance by potential female recruits, but I would be prepared to accomodate concerns that might arise (at least initially - hopefully these will evaporate once people have more experience of training).
It should be noted that it isn't just women who can have issues with relatively intimate bodily contact. We've had (a few) male students with no apparent problems with being punched/kicked/thrown about, but who have refused outright to have seiho done to them.
Also from Jude
Concentrating on being approachable is good idea as going into that first session is intimidating if there is no-one but guys training
Also very important I think. We have had freshers demos where the message that SK is eminently suitable for women has been somewhat undercut by the fact that the people doing the demonstrating were all burly blokes. This year we will have a female 2nd dan instructor, and female captain and vice captain up front and centre, which surely won't hurt..
PS I know it was ironic, but the title of this thread is probably illustrative of some of the cultural issues we're dealing with here (should it have been 'lay-deez'?)
Tony Leith
Ewok
26th July 2007, 09:50
For demo's you need some of the young women we have training in Japan - they put in ten times the effort of the men, easily a hundred times the kiai, train longer and harder, and are scary to watch when they go from cute little girls into serious kenshi mode :p
I'll try and drag some videos up from somewhere, the 4 I trained with were amazing. Without fail one of them would injure something before a taikai...
Tripitaka of AA
26th July 2007, 11:33
I saw a Youtube a while ago about some rather dainty and cute young Japanese female who was a Kyokushinkai knock-down tournament veteran. An inspiration to many, I would imagine. But possibly just as off-putting to a wary unconvinced newcomer, who may fear some weird transformation or conversion into the dogi-clad killing machine. People are never all that keen on being "turned into something" unless they have secretly harboured a desire to become that person already. There are many environmental influences that might lead to a young male having a secret yearning to be a "martial artist", and therefore susceptible to the suggestion that enrolling in a class may make that possible. Young women may also have such a desire, and I feel this is increasingly likely now that there are more fictional role model female characters being created with such heroic qualities. As the fictional characters take on a more active physical role, it is natural to assume that the fantasy yearnings of the readers will find the "martial artist" a more acceptable aspiration.
I wonder if I can remember where I saw that clip...
dirk.bruere
26th July 2007, 23:16
As the fictional characters take on a more active physical role, it is natural to assume that the fantasy yearnings of the readers will find the "martial artist" a more acceptable aspiration.
When I started everyone wanted to be Bruce Lee.
Most people prefer the fantasy to the reality. The reality is hard, painful and longterm training. The fantasy is... fantasy.
Strangely, the major reason I persisted at SK was that I could not master it. During my life I've done many things and acquired many skills, but in almost all cases I've dropped the practice when I decided I had got good as anyone was likely to be. I never reached that point in SK.
Dirk
tony leith
28th July 2007, 14:44
from Dirk
Strangely, the major reason I persisted at SK was that I could not master it.
There's no right answer to the 'why are you training?' question, but this IMHO is a good one. It is also I think illustrative of one of the real problems we have with both recruitment and more particularly with retention (of male as well as female students).
Like any genuine skill, SK takes quite a long time to achieve competence, and much longer to 'master' (like Dirk, I am under no illusions that my current rank of 3rd dan signifies mastery). To put it mildly, this is swimming against the current of contemporary western culture, where people want (nay expect and demand) immediate satisfaction and gratification.
I don't see any obvious solution to this particular problem. I think we can claim that some of the first things you learn in SK are immediately potentially useful in self defence, but embedding them in 'muscle memory' requires sustained, concentrated effort over time.
I increasingly think that there isn't much point in soft pedalling this - we might as well go after the people who (at least potentially) might respond positively to this kind of challenge rather than try to pretend it ain't so.
However being Scottish, I am almost genetically a stern Presbyterian Calvinist (if you're not suffering you're doing it wrong, and won't get any credit for it anyway), and would be interested to hear about alternative points of view :p
Tony leith
Rob Gassin
28th July 2007, 18:54
Strangely, the major reason I persisted at SK was that I could not master it. During my life I've done many things and acquired many skills, but in almost all cases I've dropped the practice when I decided I had got good as anyone was likely to be. I never reached that point in SK.
I think this point is very much in line with points 3 and 8, I made earlier (Sk's 'emphasis on proper technique' and 'technique training is much more 'technical' in SK').
I increasingly think that there isn't much point in soft pedalling this - we might as well go after the people who (at least potentially) might respond positively to this kind of challenge rather than try to pretend it ain't so.
Interestingly, a common complaint I hear from frustrated beginners and more advanced kenshi alike is - 'my technique works, why try to change it?' The quick answer, I think, is that they come to the dojo to learn SK, and that's the way it's done in SK. Point them to the concept of shu ha ri.
With regards to this thread, I suspect that this frustration is more likely to be an impediment to males sticking to SK than females.
Kari MakiKuutti
30th July 2007, 08:12
Without fail one of them would injure something before a taikai...
The something being you?
Ewok
30th July 2007, 09:37
I stayed out the way :P I know better than to tempt fate like that!
Nina
30th July 2007, 23:12
"The men...so why do you think it's necessary to have a higher female ratio? Why do you want more women in your dojo? Because you think you can recruit more people in general by this?
Nina
30th July 2007, 23:38
Do you waste time to think about with whom you train? Do youself train in another way with a male or female kenshi? Why not treat everyone equally?
PeterL
31st July 2007, 01:51
I think that this discussion started because it seems that some dojo's were missing out on a large section of potential kenshi but not having more females.
Do you waste time to think about with whom you train?
Absoluely, because an essential part of training is working in pairs. I always think about the other kenshi, it is cooperative training.
Do youself train in another way with a male or female kenshi? Why not treat everyone equally?
Because everyone is not equal- whether male or female. Level is different, when I practice with someone with a higher level, I do not worry about having to "pull" my punches. There is one guy I practiced with last week, and he is unbelieveabley "soft", so joint locks do not work unless I really go hard, something that would not be so good with a less "soft/flexible" person.
I have trained with females and I think that I need to take into consideration their "comfort level" of physical "closess- everyone has one and some females especially when the first start are very conscious of this. In short, there are some many differences in individuals and gender is only one of them. I think you need to consider all of these, as best you can, when training since after all SK does come down to the individual.
In my experience in Japan (one Dojo only) but I attend the Kagwa Block Tourney and the Kagawa Tourney, which has exposed me to quite a wide range of teachers, that SK in Japan can be very individualized and kenshi are really encouraged to go at their own pace. I see this translate into a lot of sensitivity on the instructors part to indiviual differences, preferences, etc.
I do not think that there is anything wrong with this, in fact I think that there is much Right with this.
Peter
ken70
31st July 2007, 09:15
"The men...so why do you think it's necessary to have a higher female ratio? Why do you want more women in your dojo? Because you think you can recruit more people in general by this?
For reproduction, of course!!
It's more difficult to reproduce some little kenshis if there is only men!! :p
ken70
31st July 2007, 09:17
Sorry..... http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3112/oupsdg0.gif
dirk.bruere
31st July 2007, 10:57
"The men...so why do you think it's necessary to have a higher female ratio? Why do you want more women in your dojo? Because you think you can recruit more people in general by this?
Two reasons.
First, because women can benefit more from self defence training than men, at least in terms of confidence. Second, and more important in my opinion, is that we should try to develop 'community'. SK should strive to be a social organisation as well as a MA one, and that means gender and age balance.
Dirk
tony leith
31st July 2007, 11:30
Reasonable question, I suppose.
From Dirk
First, because women can benefit more from self defence training than men, at least in terms of confidence. Second, and more important in my opinion, is that we should try to develop 'community'. SK should strive to be a social organisation as well as a MA one, and that means gender and age balance.
Pretty much covers it. I think the reason that we perceive there to be a 'problem' is that women are pretty inarguably under-represented in SK vis a vis the population as a whole. Given that there are higher levels of female participation in some other physical activities, including some similar to our own, I think it is reasonable to ask whether there are things that we could be doing differently that might encourage more women to join. Bear in mind that it is possible that the answer to this question might be 'no' if such changes would alter the fundemental character of the activity e.g. if it were thought that reducing the amount of physical contact/impact or not training in dogi might do the trick.
On a personal note, I would have to say that I think a significant proportion of female kenshi tends to improve the quality of the training environment. When I started training in Glasgow the smell of testosterone as you entered the dojo was pretty overwhelming, and while I enjoyed some aspects of the training culture which resulted from this - namely, it was hard - there were some aspects of it I had reservations about, and in the end probably weren't serving the male kenshi all that well either.
An example which doesn't reflect that creditably on me :- I once 'had' to train with a senior female kyu grade who was well, a lot physically less robust than me, and was finding having to train with that level of restraint a bit of a chore. I suddenly realised that my attitude stank, gave myself a good hard mental slap across the face, and ended up having a really enjoyable testing training session precisely because I was having to train within those limits. At the same time, she was getting a lot out of training with a partner who was much more resistant to techniques than she was used to.
this of course is just one example, but if you multiply this across a whole movement the size of SK if its membership is overwhelmingly male, the possible consequences are obvious.
Also, I did once see a thread elsewhere on e-budo where the 'would you hit a woman?' question was being entertained. the answer to this should surely be a matter of fact, of course, if it were necessary in a context of self defence, but only to that extent. A lot of posters on this thread seemed to be getting very exercised imagining the kind of circumstances which would 'legitimise' them inflicting more than minimal force on a women. The relish involved in conjuring these scenarios left me a feeling more than a bit queasy. I also can't help wondering about how these attitudes might be reinforced in male dominated environments where there are no correctives to the kind of machismo that males left entirely to their own devices are capable of.
Tony leith
Tripitaka of AA
31st July 2007, 20:53
I have so missed Tony Leith on the forum. Welcome back Sensei. :)
tony leith
1st August 2007, 09:07
From Tripitaka
I have so missed Tony Leith on the forum. Welcome back Sensei.
Thanks. Now it can be told - I have a broken bone in my foot, which I am impatiently having to allow to heal. less time training, more time for pontificating about training. I know what I'd rather be doing, but unfortunately my foot is very clear that this would not be a smart move right now.
PS I am 'sensei' to my students, but not here.
Tony Leith
tracey fuller
1st August 2007, 11:14
I once 'had' to train with a senior female kyu grade who was well, a lot physically less robust than me, and was finding having to train with that level of restraint a bit of a chore.
Tony leith
This is an attitude I have come across, not necessarily within my own club but certainly at taikais and summer camp. You end up paired up with some burly black belt who has a look of disgust on their face because they have to train with a girl. It wouldn't bother me now but as a more junior kenshi it can be very intimidating.
I agree with what has been said earlier about fitness, for a lot of women fitness is about weight loss and attaining the perfect body, a generalisation I know but certainly true of a lot of my friends.
I may have said this before on this forum, but girls beget girls. The more girls you have the more will join. Some women will not have the confidence to walk into an all male environment.
Regards Tracey
tony leith
1st August 2007, 14:54
what Tracey said
This is an attitude I have come across, not necessarily within my own club but certainly at taikais and summer camp. You end up paired up with some burly black belt who has a look of disgust on their face because they have to train with a girl. It wouldn't bother me now but as a more junior kenshi it can be very intimidating.
Er, yes, but as a plea in mitigation I hope she noted that I did regard this as an attitude on my part which required correction. However, it should give us all pause in terms of potential effects on recruitment.
Either we really do believe that SK technique can be effective irrespective of physical size or we don't. If we do, then everybody, regardless of physical attributes, should be able to get something out of training with everybody else.
Regarding what she said about the physical benefits of training, SK should improve your general fitness, help develop mobility and physical coordination as well as (crucially) confidence.
I think our culture in general has a pretty deranged attitude towards physical 'perfection', especially for young women. The 'ideal' body type appears to be that preferred by gay men in the fashion industry i.e. lacking the usual female appurtenances and one suspects preferably with the addition of one male one, and the kind of body mass index that you can usually only achieve through confinement in a concentration camp or the industrial consumption of hard drugs (both of which indeed seem to be closely approximated/encouraged by the fashion industry).
I don't think we should be pandering to that kind of nonsense - we should be about giving women the confidence to say that once you're fit and healthy, what more do you want?
Tony Leith
PeterL
1st August 2007, 16:30
You end up paired up with some burly black belt who has a look of disgust on their face because they have to train with a girl. It wouldn't bother me now but as a more junior kenshi it can be very intimidating.
Hi Tracey,
Than I think the burley black belt is perhaps missing an essential part of what Sk is about. I think a lot of SK is puttig back in, and if that means modifying your training to help another Kenshi, what is the big deal?
I must admit when I first started I felt sorry for the people who had to train with me (still do to some extent) in my doin because most of them are above 3rd dan. It must be a drag sometimes training with me.
So when a new person joined who practices less intensely than me, but we are paired, I look at it as an opportunity to "put back in". I also think that helping someone learn a technique helps you improve your own technique (perhaps more so at my relatively low level or proficiency).
cheers
Nina
2nd August 2007, 00:22
Hey Peter, I agree with you that every kenshi should be treated individualistically and therefore has his/her own special needs...That was the point I was trying to make, maybe I failed... The thing I don`t really understand is why you put more emphasis on distinguishing between male and female instead of tall and small, thick and thin...
PeterL
2nd August 2007, 05:57
Hi Nina
Hey Peter, I agree with you that every kenshi should be treated individualistically and therefore has his/her own special needs...That was the point I was trying to make, maybe I failed...
No, I do no thinky ou failed at all.
The thing I don`t really understand is why you put more emphasis on distinguishing between male and female instead of tall and small, thick and thin...
Did not mean to, but I suppose it might because the thread wa about attracting women and so I focussed more on that.
Peter
Leelanau
4th August 2007, 17:46
The thing I don`t really understand is why you put more emphasis on distinguishing between male and female instead of tall and small, thick and thin...
In all of the years I've practiced and seminars I've attended, there always has been a fairly distinct line between men and women in practice. As much as I'd like to be politically correct and deny it, it remains rather true wherever I go. Women tend to be more flexible, but even more lightweight (omg their pressure points are so obvious). Behaviorally too, as women usually are more conscious of your pain. In a word, 'soft.' Not all women are like that, of course, because there is at least one stiff, obese female-kenshi who is oblivious to your pain (not me, I swear, but I worked with her for years).
The dynamics you offered, 'tall and small,' 'thick and thin,' aren't usually as total as the dynamics between men and women. Tall people are easily either thick or thin, as well as short people. But from my bit of experience, women are on the light, sensitive, and delicate end of the spectrum.
This might just be a rant fueled by the women at the relatively recent Seattle Branch Seminar. Honestly they were great, though exemplified everything that I've claimed thusfar.
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