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Doug Daulton
31st December 2000, 18:07
This thread is dedicated to the research and study of the theoretical and practical applications of the Fukyukata and Gekisai kata in their various derivations throughout the Okinawan karate ryuha.

Discussion of Japanese and Western interpretations of this kata are welcome as are discussions of the influence of Chinese martial arts on the origin/development of this kata. Practitioners of all levels and backgrounds are welcome to post. Though the free sharing of ideas, perhaps we can all learn a bit more about the kata.

Please avoid statements like "My teacher, XYZ Sensei, knew the one, true Kata X ... all else is bunk." or the Saturday cinema classic "My kungfu is better than yours". Even if you are right .. it is rude and most likely something your teacher would rather you did not say anyway. All E-budo rules apply.

Enjoy! :D

kusanku
31st December 2000, 23:11
Basic forms created by Nagamine(fukyu ichi) and Miyagi(fukyu ni/gekisai).
Fukyu Gata ichi is straightforward step and snap, contains five basics and three stances.representing Yang or had, it is an excellent kata teaching strong angle defense and all basic Matsubayashi ryu footwork, if you do it the way nagamine does.

If not, still the best of the beginner kata imo.

Fukyu Gata Ni, representing yin or flowing, shows weak angle or more effective self defesnive applications, twaches the seven most effective close combat moves, and shows a number of highly advanced tai sabaki and concepts.In many Goju schools this is the first kata shown.

I have to say these are two really good kata but they go together as a set.

Taken together they are karate in miniature.

Do not pass too lightly over these forms, they are life savers.

The better you get at fukyu Gata ichi, the better your karate will be.

There is a direct relationship betweeen the moves in fukyu gata ichi and those of Kusanku.As though to say, these are the seeds of Kusanku.

If fukyu gata are bad, in a style that does them, all the kata will be done badly.

If done well, all kata will at least have a good foundation.More Okinawan styles are doing these two kata now, than ever before. Like Pinan, they may well stand the test of time.

They are simpler than Pinan, yet elegant in concept and execution.

If you see a perfect performance of Fukyu Gata, you are watching an expet, as these kata cannot be faked.

Kusanku

Jari Virta
22nd January 2001, 16:07
Originally posted by kusanku
Taken together they are karate in miniature.

Do not pass too lightly over these forms, they are life savers.

Excuse me being a beginner in Okinawan Karate and it's bunkai but what kind of self-defence responses can be found in the Fukyu-katas? I don't ask for exact descriptions or anything like that, but moves against which or what kind of attacks are prevalent in them?

Joseph Svinth
22nd January 2001, 17:20
The opening sequence can be an attacker coming at you with a stick or short sword. You see him coming, so you step and pivot into the attack. Your reverse hand blocks (close the door); the rising block is then less a block than a switching of hands designed to keep him from withdrawing the weapon. Once the rise is complete, you step in and while pulling, strike under the armpit. Without losing the control on the weapon, you then pull back into the horse/low block position, which drives the weapon into his groin or thigh, thus giving him something to think about while you turn around to face the same attack from the other direction.

The double middle blocks can be a prelude to a throw (step in and do the middle block under his armpit while stepping in behind him, thus justifying the half-moon step) or strikes to the wrist and carotid using thumb knuckles or open hands (depends on variant). The kick, elbow, backfist, low strike/block/ punch combination is relatively self-explanatory. Some folks show this as a charge, others as a defense, but either way, this one is straightforward.

At this point you are facing one way in zenkutsu, with a strike forward. Unexpectedly someone nasty approaches from behind and attempts to stomp your Achille's tendon. Simultaneously protect your leg and clear the riffraff with the rotation and strike; the power generated virtually forces kiai.

The ending can show various things. Pulling the fellow into a headbutt was always one my favorites, but there are other interpretations.

Other stories exist, but those are some I like.

Doug Daulton
22nd January 2001, 18:10
Originally posted by Jari Virta ...Excuse me being a beginner in Okinawan Karate and it's bunkai but what kind of self-defense responses can be found in the Fukyu-katas?As a general rule, the Fukyukata are great for "hardening" fundamental techniques. By hardening I don't mean making the body hard ... I mean helping to cement the technique in the student's muscle memory. Upon this foundation, the rest of the kata and waza are built (at least in Matsubayashi-ryu).

That said, as Mr. Vengel and Mr. Svinth suggest, they are not to be taken lightly and are themselves full of excellent bunkai. Joe provided some great examples for Fukyukata Ni.

I think both kata teach fundamental tai-sabaki (body-shifting). Here the movements and transitions are much less subtle than in say, Wankan or even the Pinan kata.

For example in the opening movement of Fukyukata Ichi, one moves from a standing position (facing front), 90 degrees to the left and finishes in zenkutsu-dachi (facing left) and executing gedan uke (or barai depending on your interpretation).

On the surface, this is a simple movement. However it is frequently butchered, even by people who have considerable time on the deck. Many people "fall" into the zenkutsu-dachi and the stance ends up overly deep and considerably off-balance. If the stance is weak, so will be the hand technique (uke/barai).

Here the transition (standing to deep/face front to face left) is the key. It should not be executed like one is falling off a cliff. Rather one should try to control their descent at every point. Think of a plane coming in for a landing.

Unless it is a Harrier Jump Jet or other VTOL aircraft, a plane doesn't just drop from the sky to the ground. Rather, it comes in at a controlled angle so the pilot always has the option of aborting the landing and going off in another direction. This concept is, in and of itself, is bunkai.

Like the pilot, the karateka should have control of his body at all points so s/he can make adjustments in the "flight path" as new information comes to light. Obtaining this body control is one of the fundamental goals of the Fukyukata. It is also one of the lessons of these kata which I frequently see glossed over.

Finally, most people only think of this opening move as what it appears to be on the surface ... turning 90 degrees to block a kick from the left. Consider that the bunkai can also be turning 90 degrees to avoid an incoming attack from the front (tai-sabaki). Not being there is 1/2 the trick of not getting hit. :)

I use this example because it was the one that finally made the light bulb go on for me. When I started seeing this, I understood why Nagamine Sensei is said to have believed it is very important to always study the Fukyukata and never assume they were too basic no matter what one's level/time in training. Every single technique in the Fukyukata has a similar level of hidden application/complexity.

Apologies for my long-windedness. I hope this helps.

__________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 01-22-2001 at 12:15 PM]

Joseph Svinth
23rd January 2001, 09:28
Doug --

In that opening, try stepping out on the heel, like R. Crumb, and then generating all the movement from the hips. Likewise, in the block and the strike, try generating all the power from the lats by squeezing the shoulders together.

Staying on the beat is interesting, too. Try a metronome and see what I mean.

Doug Daulton
23rd January 2001, 14:23
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Doug --

In that opening, try stepping out on the heel, like R. Crumb, and then generating all the movement from the hips. Likewise, in the block and the strike, try generating all the power from the lats by squeezing the shoulders together.

Staying on the beat is interesting, too. Try a metronome and see what I mean. Joe,
I know just what you mean ... on all except the lats/shoulder app. Do you mean at the point of impact? We stay fluid and relaxed in the upper body all the way through the target. Am I making sense?

kusanku
24th January 2001, 05:07
Really deep implications here, for karate study at levels ranging from beginning to advanced, by both of you.

Whle I could add this or that interpretation I find that both of you are pretty jmuch center where I would have been heading with these two, and not surprised at this being so. I would have expected no less.

Only thing really to say at this point, is that all fundamnetal tai sabaki in Matsubayashi ryu does indeed stem from that first transition.

If you can't get that right, you need to work on it until you do.

Impossible to fake it with fukyu gata ichi or ni.

One's skill level shines like a beacon or gives no light, depending, during Fukyu gata ichi.

It's the footwork it really is.Hips follow the feet, arms move from the hips.Ones coordination or lack thereof is evident throughout , with no fancy Dan ( pardon the pun:D) stuff to hide lack of balance, coordination, or power behind, and for this reason, when I practice Matsubayassi ryu , I do not ever go beyond fukyu gata ich until it feels right.

Fukyu Gata NI:It has every single imortant basic Shorin ryu technique, in sequence, done for self defense, in a row. As was said, they are pretty self explaNATORY, PLUS GRAPPLING BUNKAI, which are indeed against weapons,and consequent breaking waza.

The footwoork is yin, the technique aiki.

No more for me to say. here.

Regards
John

Joseph Svinth
24th January 2001, 11:36
Doug --

I learned the Goju Kai method, which is of course high and hard at all times. Lately, though, I've been playing with the relaxation until point of impact. At just that instant, you feel the floor with the big toe of your lead foot, tighten what had been a loose fist, and squeeze the shoulder blades. Then, an instant after contact, relax the shoulders.

As for the middle block, try staying reasonably relaxed and then, instead of moving from the shoulder and elbow, instead just squeeze the shoulder blades. Don't try to go fast, just squeeze. It changes nothing, but it also changes everything.

Okay, it's a lot to do and little time in which to do it, and usually I screw it up. But it changes the dynamic, and hey, as far as I'm concerned, anything that changes the dynamic without changing any of the footwork can't be all bad.

John --

You make me feel better about the fact that the only trophies I ever got in tournament were for doing geki sai dai ichi. :)

Doug Daulton
24th January 2001, 14:59
Originally posted by Jari Virta
Thank you all for treating my novice-question seriously and giving excellent pointers and bunkai-explanations. Thank you very much. :)

Ed. note: Oh, I meant this post to be a reply to the Fukyu Kata-thread. Sorry the mistake...

Doug Daulton
24th January 2001, 15:16
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth ...I learned the Goju Kai method, which is of course high and hard at all times. Lately, though, I've been playing with the relaxation until point of impact. At just that instant, you feel the floor with the big toe of your lead foot, tighten what had been a loose fist, and squeeze the shoulder blades. Then, an instant after contact, relax the shoulders.

As for the middle block, try staying reasonably relaxed and then, instead of moving from the shoulder and elbow, instead just squeeze the shoulder blades. Don't try to go fast, just squeeze. It changes nothing, but it also changes everything.

Okay, it's a lot to do and little time in which to do it, and usually I screw it up. But it changes the dynamic, and hey, as far as I'm concerned, anything that changes the dynamic without changing any of the footwork can't be all bad.Joe,

Agreed. Complete relaxation until impact then squeeze. The question is ... where does one define the point of impact?

For me, it is about 1" inside the body. Often, I see people stop at the surface (skin). This causes the force of the tech. to dissipate across the surface and not penetrate (much like Kevlar and bullets). By thinking about 1" penetration, then kime, one crates a hydrostatic shockwave throughout the soft tissue of the body ... again much like bullet ballistics.

This way the hand becomes much more like a spear than a club. Just a thought.

Joseph Svinth
25th January 2001, 10:52
Doug --

Try the squeeze right as you feel contact. Obviously you can't do this with gloves, but the skin on the knuckles is sensitive enough if you haven't given yourself arthritic knuckles by banging them against hard objects in the past.

The real trick on hitting makiwara, at least for me, was learning to avoid twisting the fist while it was on the target. Straight in, straight out, and the damage to the skin was lots less. Meanwhile perceived impact through the kicking pad or heavy bag seems quite comparable.

Things learned while practicing kata in the swimming pool at the Y...