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Wind Warrior
30th August 2007, 23:56
I have a question in regards to one's obi.

Usually after class, I take off my belt, wrap it in two, and place it around my neck. The belt hangs neatly without touching the ground while I cool off before changing my gi. In Panama, the weather is really hot and humid, and the belt needs to refresh before being placed back into my bag. I prefer to do this than hang the belt from some knob or place it on the ground.

I never considered this offensive, nor has my Sensei told me I couldn't do it, but last week we had a visit from a fellow Sensei (not Shotokan, but Shito Ryu) and he politely but firmly removed the belt from my neck position.

Am I doing something offensive? What is the correct obi etiquette after practice?

Best regards,


Ariel E. Meilij
ariel_meilij@yahoo.com
Karate Do Traditional Association Panama
www.ktapanama.com

ZachZinn
31st August 2007, 00:11
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and says this sort of etiquette varies alot from school to school, if your own instructor isn't concerned, I don't see any reason to worry, just ask him/her.

Wind Warrior
31st August 2007, 00:24
Thanks for the reply.

Inside the KTA in Panama we have a few rules concerning the use of the belt, including one that says the belt should never touch the ground, as it is seemed unrespectful.

Yet, using the belt around the neck, is not banned or even mentioned. It is a gray area on a topic none thought about before. That is the reason I ask for other Karateka who might know better.

I personally think it is not in bad taste. We have a tradition to done gi for practice and after class, to change back to our plain clothes. Our dojo is small, and the changing room is barely big enough for two or three persons at a time. Waiting for the rest of the class to change is a fact of life, and I think placing the obi around me is in no way disrespectful.

But then, better safe than sorry...

Joseph Svinth
31st August 2007, 00:28
The folks I used to train with threw the belt into the bag, alongside the guns and ammo, and didn't worry about the grease stains too much. But they couldn't count past ten in Japanese, either. They did kata and sparred just fine, but they weren't much into the drill and ceremonies.

Josh Reyer
31st August 2007, 05:40
FWIW, when men and women wear kimono here in Japan, the first thing they do is take the obi, put one end to their waist and let the rest drop to the floor. Then they start wrapping it around them. In the aikido dojo I've practiced at, letting one end of the obi drop to the floor when you were taking them off was completely normal. Keiko-gi would be taken off and folded on the floor with no problem. Now, of course, all this depends on the floor. Since the Japanese never walk with outdoor shoes where they will walk in their bare feet, the floors are clean enough to do this. Certainly it would not be the same situation outside, in the grass and dirt.

Wearing the belt around the neck, OTOH, I imagine would be seen as a very cavalier and casual attitude, perhaps unsuitable for the practice of budo. I wouldn't do it myself, but then my dojo is on the strict side when it comes to appearance to and from keiko -- t-shirts and jeans discouraged, slacks and collared shirts encouraged. But, your dojo, your rules (or, your sensei's dojo, your sensei's rules), so if you want to keep the obi off the ground and around the neck, then that's the obi etiquette for your dojo.

DustyMars
31st August 2007, 09:36
We always neatly folded up our Judogi and tied the obi around it like in the old days. In karate dojo we always neatly folded up our Judogi and tied the obi around it like in the old days :) Most of my fellow student coundn't afford a karategi nor new obis, so we always neatly folded up our Judogi and tied the obi around it like in the old days -- so the would stink to high Heven the next day :rolleyes:

When visiting sensei visited my dojo they followed by my rules, no matter their rank, or they were politely invited to leave.

EddieK
31st August 2007, 14:02
FWIW, when men and women wear kimono here in Japan, the first thing they do is take the obi, put one end to their waist and let the rest drop to the floor. Then they start wrapping it around them. In the aikido dojo I've practiced at, letting one end of the obi drop to the floor when you were taking them off was completely normal. Keiko-gi would be taken off and folded on the floor with no problem. Now, of course, all this depends on the floor. Since the Japanese never walk with outdoor shoes where they will walk in their bare feet, the floors are clean enough to do this. Certainly it would not be the same situation outside, in the grass and dirt.

Wearing the belt around the neck, OTOH, I imagine would be seen as a very cavalier and casual attitude, perhaps unsuitable for the practice of budo. I wouldn't do it myself, but then my dojo is on the strict side when it comes to appearance to and from keiko -- t-shirts and jeans discouraged, slacks and collared shirts encouraged. But, your dojo, your rules (or, your sensei's dojo, your sensei's rules), so if you want to keep the obi off the ground and around the neck, then that's the obi etiquette for your dojo.

Even in Mas Oyama's book - "This is Karate" they illustrate gi folding with the obi on the floor -in other schools this is a BIG no-no. It is simply a matter of how you were taught and what etiquette you decide to pass on.

Wind Warrior
3rd September 2007, 23:42
Thanks a lot for all the replies.

It is interesting to learn that the obi touching the floor in Japan is not considered rude.

I can understand that jeans and t-shirts are not considered appropriate for dress code. It is however it is practically the way everyone in Panama dresses.

I remember tying the obi around my Judogi back in Judo days (a long time ago). I did that with my Karategi in the start, but I sort of loss the tradition.

Best regards,

BlackPaladin
4th September 2007, 01:01
I am not big on rules, but I am big on basic etiquette, respect for cultures, "house rules," etc.

I would not do that, but if no one is offended, go ahead.

CEB
4th September 2007, 14:40
.....

I never considered this offensive, nor has my Sensei told me I couldn't do it, but last week we had a visit from a fellow Sensei (not Shotokan, but Shito Ryu) and he politely but firmly removed the belt from my neck position.

Am I doing something offensive? What is the correct obi etiquette after practice?
....

Maybe he does not want you to get strangled with it? Maybe he considers it a suki.

gmanry
4th September 2007, 17:42
Some people feel a need to inject their own views and biases where they are not welcomed.

I had a Korean teacher try to straighten my belt, when I had it crossed in the back, as I was instructed to do by my teacher. This Korean teacher, though skilled, was a pompous a$$.

DustyMars
4th September 2007, 21:12
Anyone who hides behind such tripe about belts toughing the ground is insecure and not worth his or her salt. Such BS belongs in tabloid magazines and not in a dojo. Obviously the so-called sensei who objects to such crap never practiced Martial arts.

Jeff

ZachZinn
4th September 2007, 22:41
That seems a little harsh Dusty, though I personally think worrying too much about things like that is kind of pointless.

Honestly though bottom line is the dude was a visiting instructor, so I think it's a bit out of line that he thought it ok to do something like that.

Ewok
5th September 2007, 02:58
Although I am not a Karateka, I have spent some time in various dojo's around Japan (Shorinji Kempo, Kendo, Aikido, Judo, Kyudo, etc) and one thing is clear - an obi is there to keep the pants up, and stop your dogi flopping around and getting in the way. As long as you aren't dragging it through the mud you can do whatever you want with it.

Now the interesting bit is toilet etiquette - do you take the obi off, or just hike it up so you can get the pants loose? :p
(I usually put it round my neck, but its usually depends on how much time I have, heh)

BlackPaladin
5th September 2007, 13:20
The whole point of etiquette is balancing your own personal needs and desires and self-expression against the needs and feelings of others, and society's expectations. Some etiquette areas I laugh at, others I follow, and still others I follow with modification.

It is not too much to carry your obi, that you may feel is simply utilitarian, in a way that shows respect for its symbolic nature, while in the presence of someone who feels this way about it, and is your superior in rank, even though outside of your "chain of command."

I think many mothers would agree.

DustyMars
5th September 2007, 17:42
When living on Okinawa we wore our Judogi to and from the dojo and changed at home. No one gave us the slightest attention. The only other place after that was while at Bergstrom AFB, TX when the gym or dojo, was across the street from my shop, so I would wear it while working, then return to the gym and change after driving home. People didn’t care one way or the other what I wore – even out of USAF uniform. Back then Martial Arts in the USAF wasa commonplace and no one cared a twit what we wore to and from the dojo.

At other places I would neatly folded up the Judogi and tie the obi around it like in the old days (prior to eh new days). In karate dojo we always neatly folded up our Judogi and tied the obi around it like in the old days Most of my fellow student couldn't afford a karategi nor a new obi, so we always neatly folded up our Judogi and tied the obi around it like in the old days -- so the would stink to high heaven the next day :)

When visiting sensei visited my dojo they followed by my rules, no matter their rank, or they were politely invited to leave. :rolleyes:

Aaron T
5th September 2007, 19:30
Jeff... thank you....a breath of fresh air...

I am not a karateka, but....

Early on in my career, I was standing up after taking a throw and set into re-tying my belt and fixing my uwagi. The instructor told me to quit #^$&@ing with my clothes and get a grip.

It has alwasy been my impression that judo is much more casual than karate about this sort of thing. Never-the-less, the job of the obi is to keep the uwagi closed.

Another instructor of mine, (a koryu guy,) was apporached once and asked what was the traditional wayfold a hakama. He threw his hakama into the corner and said something to the effect of, "the traiditional way, was to have your wife fold it." :)

In summary, like Jeff and Joe pointed, who cares it is a piece of cloth. But, some folks get wraped up, (excuse the pun,) over silliness.

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

Mitch Saret
5th September 2007, 19:40
That's the problem with Dusty...he's a zoomie! :P

But, I digress. We have to remember that belt for rank are a fairly new innovation. The belt was merely a way to keep the uwagi closed and perhaps, the pants up. I once saw a senior judoka explain to a group how it was only a piece of clothing, take off his belt, drop it to the floor, and kick it to the corner!

It's kind of that myth we hear about never washing your white belt as you wash your knowledge away. HORSE HOCKEY! Your belt gets dirty you wash it! Your dogi gets dirty, you wash it!

Your training partner appreciates good hygiene. :mst:

johnst_nhb
5th September 2007, 20:12
Anyone who hides behind such tripe about belts toughing the ground is insecure and not worth his or her salt. Such BS belongs in tabloid magazines and not in a dojo. Obviously the so-called sensei who objects to such crap never practiced Martial arts.

Jeff

Agreed. There is so much ceremonial crap (edited to remove pun that Aaron already used!) around the obi that it is laughable. Go to Okinawa and see how they treat belts. Its a belt, nothing more, nothing less.

When ceremony takes a front seat to reality, you are on a slippery slope.

That being said, draping a belt around the neck is just a tad too "bad-ass" for my tastes.

DustyMars
5th September 2007, 21:19
My problem is that being a yudansha since a teenager (47 years ago) all that ceremony stuff just doesn't impress me. When it is necessary, say when doing some kata or what not, or official stuff, then ceremony is okay with me. When I first taught Judo a bad habit of mine was yelling at the students too much. When I grew up and remembered my sensei and how they taught it became clear what they were trying to get across. My karate sensei would never speak much but would correct us by either showing our errors or then correcting them, or a gentle tug or push with his hands. I learned more form that than my first students learned from all the stupid yelling. Judoka tend to be noisy and maybe that is where I got the yelling from. :)

I also learned that higher grade sensei were the least noisy. Several times when training at the Kodokan, Mifune sensei would come into our dojo room or on the main floor and would occasionally walk over to where we GI’s were and talk a bit. While our sensei was hachidan, and like our step father to many of us, Mifune was special in that he was one of the last 10th dans who was a direct student of Jigoro Kano and one of the most efficient Judoka we had ever witnessed. He was gracious and listened attentively when one of us had the nerve to speak. :rolleyes: Like most of our sensei, he smiled a lot too. Our sensei was Kotani and the Kodokan awarded him 10th dan in 1984. Those people are very rare in Judo.

So, from where I come from displaced ceremony is nothing more than people showing off or pure vanity. Don't get me wrong, my respect for anyone who practices any Martian Art is still high, but as I used to say to my kids -- I may love you but sometiems I don't care for what you do.

Nyuck3X
6th September 2007, 00:12
Now the interesting bit is toilet etiquette - do you take the obi off, or just hike it up so you can get the pants loose? :p
(I usually put it round my neck, but its usually depends on how much time I have, heh)

I pull mine up to my chest and tuck the bottom flaps under it
to get full access to my "Danger Zone". :p

An old Shorinji-Kempo teacher once told me that my belt symbolized
the weaaring of a Katana. Maybe that's where the Japanese and
Okinawans differ. The sword is sacred to the Japanese. The Okinawan
Bushi did not (as far as I know) identify himself in this way.

Peace

Eisenheim
10th September 2007, 16:35
Although many people have already said it, here is my opinion:

An obi is simply used for two reasons: to keep our gi and/or hakama (not in karate but in other arts) from falling apart during practice and to rank students in colors.

If we agree that an obi is used for these two reaons only, than strict obi use rules should not be imposed by a school or teacher. However, if one trully beleives that the obi is essentially part of the martial uniform and it must be used with much respect, then maybe etiquette concerning the obi should be used.

Finally, by personnal experience, the obi is NOT something to respect as much as one's weapons or spiritual items.

Good day,

Mike Haftel
11th September 2007, 06:21
The belt touches the ground everytime you get thrown, anyway...

Here, in Japan, everything touches the ground. You fold your belt, gi, and hakama on the ground.

But, wearing your belt around your neck would be a bit...rude. Nothing too bad, but you would seem like a rebel.

If you are Japanese, you'd get yelled at.

If you are a foreigner, nobody would say anything.

Ryanclose
13th September 2007, 18:29
We always ask the kids; if we took off their belts would they lose there training? The answers was "No" of course. We treat our belts like other training gear for the most part.
Personally, I take mine off, tie in a knot and throw it in my bin until I come in the next day. I've rarely worn it around my neck but only because I don't find it very comfortable most of the time. I have done it though. To us, it's just a belt and the mystique of having the Black Belt wore off after a month or so of having it. Truth be told, I'd prefer not having to wear one but I wear it for the tradition. And I don't wash it because I don't want it to shrink. :rolleyes: lol (I've heard/seen horror stories)

I would guess the biggest difference is in the way people train: Okinawan vs Japanese. The Japanese seem to be much more strict when it comes to things like that.

Prince Loeffler
13th September 2007, 22:07
an obi is there to keep the pants up, Not to nit pick, but I am a bit moody.. :) The obi is not meant to keep any pants up nor to hold the uwagi together, its the drawstring in your pants and jacket that does.......

The Obi was design by Kano to denote ranks amongst his senior pupils. Pure and simple !

Ewok
14th September 2007, 03:05
Not to nit pick, but I am a bit moody.. :) The obi is not meant to keep any pants up nor to hold the uwagi together, its the drawstring in your pants and jacket that does.......

The Obi was design by Kano to denote ranks amongst his senior pupils. Pure and simple !

Not to nit pick, but suddenly I'm a bit moody. I don't have drawstrings on my uwagi, and the obi was not suddenly designed in the late 1800's :)

Prince Loeffler
14th September 2007, 04:55
Not to nit pick, but suddenly I'm a bit moody. I don't have drawstrings on my uwagi, and the obi was not suddenly designed in the late 1800's :)

Guess that makes us both compulsive nit-pickers eh ? :)

Ewok
14th September 2007, 05:41
Guess that makes us both compulsive nit-pickers eh ? :)

At this rate I won't have any hair for the nits to be picked from :p

Eisenheim
14th September 2007, 22:30
Not to nit pick, but I am a bit moody.. :) The obi is not meant to keep any pants up nor to hold the uwagi together, its the drawstring in your pants and jacket that does.......

The Obi was design by Kano to denote ranks amongst his senior pupils. Pure and simple !

Ouf I must agree with Ewok there... Sorry Princy!

Prince Loeffler
14th September 2007, 22:32
Ouf I must agree with Ewok there... Sorry Princy!

Don't be , I swear I thought knew everything there is know about budo... :p

ZachZinn
15th September 2007, 21:38
Not to nit pick, but suddenly I'm a bit moody. I don't have drawstrings on my uwagi, and the obi was not suddenly designed in the late 1800's :)


Maybe I got a different impression of what Prince was saying, I thought he more meant that the dan-kyu ranking system was created/standardized by Kano, which (as far as I know, which maybe isn't saying much;)) is correct.

I'm sure belt have been around a while removed from their judo/karate specific connotations.

Mike Haftel
18th September 2007, 05:03
What about wearing a hakama without an obi? How is that viewed?

Ewok
18th September 2007, 09:35
What about wearing a hakama without an obi? How is that viewed?

Depends on what you are wearing on top. If its short like a Kendo uwagi then you generally don't wear an obi as the hakama is what keeps it closed. But if you are wearing something long (like a kimono or yukata) then you wear the appropriate obi, then the hakama on top.

I think some iaido practicioners wear an obi under the hakama, which I never really understood. I usually found that just using the straps on the hakama was enough for me.

Ah, if you mean like Aikido, then its more of a personal choice if you want to wear the obi or not - the idea is that you are supposed to wear the obi, then if you take the hakama off you are ready to rumble.

Mike Haftel
19th September 2007, 05:47
Depends on what you are wearing on top. If its short like a Kendo uwagi then you generally don't wear an obi as the hakama is what keeps it closed. But if you are wearing something long (like a kimono or yukata) then you wear the appropriate obi, then the hakama on top.

I think some iaido practicioners wear an obi under the hakama, which I never really understood. I usually found that just using the straps on the hakama was enough for me.

Ah, if you mean like Aikido, then its more of a personal choice if you want to wear the obi or not - the idea is that you are supposed to wear the obi, then if you take the hakama off you are ready to rumble.

Thanks!

Yeah, I'm talking more about a jujutsu or Aikido situation. I generally do not wear an obi under the hakama (my gi top is a mix between a kendogi, with ties, and an Aikido/Judo gi). I find it uncomfortable to wear a thick obi under it. Maybe I should try a thinner, wider obi like what is worn with a yukata or kimono?

Ewok
19th September 2007, 07:33
Thanks!

Yeah, I'm talking more about a jujutsu or Aikido situation. I generally do not wear an obi under the hakama (my gi top is a mix between a kendogi, with ties, and an Aikido/Judo gi). I find it uncomfortable to wear a thick obi under it. Maybe I should try a thinner, wider obi like what is worn with a yukata or kimono?

Well if it were me I'd wear a judo uwagi and just a hakama (same as kendo kenshi). If you really, really want to wear the pants too, then a kaku-obi like you wear on a yukata or kimono is better as it will sit flat, but you'll look silly if you take the hakama off ;)

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%E8%A7%92%E5%B8%AF&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

I've always wondered about why we still wear hamaka, especially in kendo. The purpose is to protect the clothes underneath (yet you don't wear trousers or a long enough top to make this possible), and when things get serious you would hike the hakama up to get it out of the way (same as the sleeves).

Mike Haftel
19th September 2007, 07:45
Well if it were me I'd wear a judo uwagi and just a hakama (same as kendo kenshi). If you really, really want to wear the pants too, then a kaku-obi like you wear on a yukata or kimono is better as it will sit flat, but you'll look silly if you take the hakama off ;)

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%E8%A7%92%E5%B8%AF&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

I've always wondered about why we still wear hamaka, especially in kendo. The purpose is to protect the clothes underneath (yet you don't wear trousers or a long enough top to make this possible), and when things get serious you would hike the hakama up to get it out of the way (same as the sleeves).

I wear a kendo keikogi (3/4 sleeves, ties, and slit in bottom of rear) with a hakama and no obi.

I think we still wear hakama for the tradition and because it looks nifty.

Also, I never could really figure out the proper way to tuck the legs of a hakama up. What part of the hakama do you tuck where?

Ewok
19th September 2007, 09:42
I wear a kendo keikogi (3/4 sleeves, ties, and slit in bottom of rear) with a hakama and no obi.

Sounds fine to me :)


I think we still wear hakama for the tradition and because it looks nifty.

I agree with the nifty, it does look very good. But still - its a piece of clothing thats main purpose is to protect your legs and main garment when riding a horse (thus the split in the hakama making it a kind of skirt-like-pants).


Also, I never could really figure out the proper way to tuck the legs of a hakama up. What part of the hakama do you tuck where?

I beleive its supposed to be tied up - have you seen how to tie the sleeves on a kimono up leaving the arms bare? Its like that.. just with the legs :p

I'll try and get a photo later.

Josh Reyer
19th September 2007, 10:12
Why do we wear neckties? Or have buttons on the sleeves of our suits? We recently had a female student join our dojo, and if I could be a complete sexist pig for a moment, IMO the uwagi/hakama combo is a pretty attractive ensemble. Heck, for guys, too. I seem to be too tall and straight to pull it off, but some of my dojo mates cut quite the masculine hour-glass figure in their uwagi and hakama.

Regarding obi under hakama - Tozando has a special Aikido obi (http://www.tozandoshop.com/product_p/mo_ob50.htm) that's soft and flat. Also, I got their stretchable iai obi (http://www.tozandoshop.com/product_p/ob60.htm) for some sword work. It's actually too thin for iai/battou, IMO, making it difficult to stick the sword/saya through the layers, but would probably work great for jujutsu type situations, with a nice, flat profile that should be comfortable for ukemi.

Ewok
19th September 2007, 10:29
Why do we wear neckties?

Because the necktie is a status symbol of class and/or wealth that is deeply ingrained in our culture.


Or have buttons on the sleeves of our suits?

To stop you from the temptation of wiping your snotty nose on the sleeve :p


We recently had a female student join our dojo, and if I could be a complete sexist pig for a moment, IMO the uwagi/hakama combo is a pretty attractive ensemble. Heck, for guys, too. I seem to be too tall and straight to pull it off, but some of my dojo mates cut quite the masculine hour-glass figure in their uwagi and hakama.

For sure! But why only half do it? Why not wear a kimono and hakama? Probably because it would be overly abusive to the kimono and not to mention expensive, which still makes me wonder why we use the hakama at all... I bet the answer has something to do with 42.


Regarding obi under hakama - Tozando has a special Aikido obi (http://www.tozandoshop.com/product_p/mo_ob50.htm) that's soft and flat. Also, I got their stretchable iai obi (http://www.tozandoshop.com/product_p/ob60.htm) for some sword work. It's actually too thin for iai/battou, IMO, making it difficult to stick the sword/saya through the layers, but would probably work great for jujutsu type situations, with a nice, flat profile that should be comfortable for ukemi.

Can't check it from work, but it sounds like a kaku obi, but with velcro or a hook catch right? Would get the job done nicely.

Josh Reyer
19th September 2007, 13:38
Because the necktie is a status symbol of class and/or wealth that is deeply ingrained in our culture.

I believe the necktie is ultimate article of male clothing. We wrap it once. But that could still come undone, so we wrap it a second time. Hmmm...but now it looks a little stupid. So we wrap a third time to cover up the previous wraps. Then we thread it through so it points to what we really want people to pay attention to.


To stop you from the temptation of wiping your snotty nose on the sleeve :p

I know that's why Napoleon originally had them put on, but is that really an issue in today's world, particularly in temperate climes unlike 19th Century Russia?


For sure! But why only half do it? Why not wear a kimono and hakama? Probably because it would be overly abusive to the kimono and not to mention expensive, which still makes me wonder why we use the hakama at all... I bet the answer has something to do with 42.

Well, the point I was trying to make is that it's a mix of tradition ("good enough for my sensei's sensei, good enough for us!") and fashion. Pretty much like neckties and buttons on suit jackets.

On the practical side, an uwagi instead of a kimono is much better for sweating and exertion, not to mention lightly padded if you happen to take a shinai hit. And hakama are light, airy, easy to move in (once standing) and obscure the legs.


Can't check it from work, but it sounds like a kaku obi, but with velcro or a hook catch right? Would get the job done nicely.

No! Such monstrosities are 邪道, jado, the path of unrighteousness! I'd sooner suggest a clip-on bowtie (and I'd never do that). No, the stretch iai obi is an obi slightly narrower than a kakuobi, roughly the same thickness, but with the ends simple cloth instead of the stiff obi material, for ease of tying.

Mike Haftel
20th September 2007, 01:33
I beleive its supposed to be tied up - have you seen how to tie the sleeves on a kimono up leaving the arms bare? Its like that.. just with the legs :p

I'll try and get a photo later.

Really? I would have thought this would restrict movement and maybe even get uncomfortable, what with the family jewels...

On another point,

I think the arguement about why we still wear hakama is moot. Why do we still wear gi, even? Why not just sweatpants and a t-shirt? Why do we still study something as archaic as the sword? We don't need to know how to use swords and defend ourselves with weapons that are hundreds of years outdated.

I think the answer is that it's all one package. You can't pick and choose what aspects of a tradition to adhere to and still call it the same tradition. Yes, things change and evolve over time. But, if things change too much, they are no longer what they used to be. Yes, this is quite obvious.

For example, people who still study a koryu aren't about to go and overhaul the entire art because it is outdated and then still call it the same thing.

eman resu
20th September 2007, 03:41
When I first started in the MA's as a teen, my first instructor was my step dad and I recall playing around and putting on his BB and I recall him sternly telling me to take it off as it was a sign of disrespect. For years in the same system I basically held much respect for the belt not touching the floor or not taking it off during class, or if it needed to be adjusted go down on one knee to retie it.

Years later I began my training under a new teacher who was less into the ceremonies or rituals and was shocked when one day he explained to me, a black belt is nothing more than symbolizing that you have passed the basic course. It means nothing more than that and much of what was taught to me was due to rituals, ceremonies and ego....and than proceeded to remove his belt and throw it on the floor and step all over it. My mouth was wide open in disbelief. I got his point though, he is still a man that can defend himself regardless if he has his belt on. Today, I will tie my belt around my kids waists and let them be little karate kids. Makes no difference to me if it hits the floor, goes through the wash or anything else. It is simply a belt I bought at a store for $9.99. I do however respect others that believe just the opposite of me. That's what makes the world go round.

Dangerman
20th September 2007, 19:42
From what I have been told by several aikidoka I train with, a secondary purpose of hakama is to hide you footwork from an opponent. I have heard an aikido sensei say that that is why he doesn't allow students below shodan to wear hakama, he wants to see what their feet are doing.

~Ben Provost

kenkyusha
20th September 2007, 19:56
From what I have been told by several aikidoka I train with, a secondary purpose of hakama is to hide you footwork from an opponent. I have heard an aikido sensei say that that is why he doesn't allow students below shodan to wear hakama, he wants to see what their feet are doing.
I'd love to see this meme die... and what instructor worth his/her salt can't tell what the ashi-sabaki of students is, pants or no pants?!?!

Be well,
Jigme

BTW, it is really, really tough to hang tanto and other stuff from just hakama w/no kakuobi...

Ewok
21st September 2007, 01:49
BTW, it is really, really tough to hang tanto and other stuff from just hakama w/no kakuobi...

Usually you wouldn't carry a wooden tanto, a real tanto would have a sheth and could be "tied" to the belt, and you would be wearing a kimono which requires a kakuobi anyhow. When I did Iaido I would have my iaito hooked into the hakama for hours without any issue :)

kenkyusha
21st September 2007, 04:52
You only had your iaito on w/no kodachi one assumes? The saya rubbing against each other is not a good thing, and if you have to do taijutsu while wearing that stuff... just imagine having someone cut (or rip) the himo of your hakama... everything falls. At least w/kakuobi, your weapons stay, even if you lose trousers.

Be well,
Jigme