Against a knife?

[Ronnie Smart]

Hi all! :) Sorry for my protracted absence from discussion, I've been hard at work on my thesis recently, so have only been an observer of debates , not a contributor recently.

Youth crime is on the rise here in New Zealand, and it seems the number of knife/stabbing attacks is also increasing. Last weekend a 17 year old guy was stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack while leaving a party. He was to all accounts a rather good young boxer, but that didn't seem to have protected him much.

I understand that the number of knife attacks in other countries, particularly Britain, is also increasing, and there the risk of being attacked by a knife is probably much higher than here for me in New Zealand. Escaping from a knife-wielding person, or not being near someone with a knife in the first place I think would often be the best alternative, but what do you do at your dojo to be better prepared in a situation where running or handing over your wallet is not an option against someone with a blade/screwdriver etc?

Gassho all

Ronnie

Sorry the grammar's a bit jumbled up, hope you all get what I mean :) Was cutting/pasting ideas back and forth.

[Ewok]

From nidan there is knife specific techniques in the sylabus, and it has come up a few times during normal training. I guess it gets interesting when you do the elusive weapon training that disarming would be a larger focus.

[Ron Beaubien]

Escaping from a knife-wielding person, or not being near someone with a knife in the first place I think would often be the best alternative, but what do you do at your dojo to be better prepared in a situation where running or handing over your wallet is not an option against someone with a blade/screwdriver etc?

After watching the police training video Surviving Edged Weapons by Calibre Press, which I cannot recommend highly enough, I would advise using a gun from a long distance.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[tony leith]

After watching the police training video Surviving Edged Weapons by Calibre Press, which I cannot recommend highly enough, I would advise using a gun from a long distance.

From a purely tactical stand point, makes sense to me. I've been threatened with being stabbed several times, which isn't fun, but the people you really want to worry about aren't the one who'll threaten you - they'll just damn well do it. From behind if they think they can get away with it.

As far as this goes, no technique is going to help in the slightest if you aren't aware of the threat. Training in happomkou and zanshin are IMHO are two of the most useful things we can give to our students.

Re actual defences against knives in motion, well, in the sense of 'guaranteeing' not being cut, I don't think there are any. However executing basic defences like shita uke properly will afford a measure of protection against stabbing attacks to the abdomen (presupposing that you see it coming of course), in that the target should be out of the way and the attack deflected away to the side. This is why it is absolutely critical that all attacks are aimed to hit when practising techniques - otherwise in self defence terms our training is much worse than useless.

All that being said, taking off and nuking the site from orbit would still seem like the smart move to me

Tony Leith

PS I once saw footage of an armed SWAT team surrounding a man with a kitchen knife. They shot him, point blank, with a shotgun to the chest. I did think that they might have tried shooting him in the leg, what with them being trained marksmen, but the fact that they were not going to risk closing with him, armour or no armour, should be thought provoking to the rest of us.

[Rob Gassin]

Sobering data:

70% of people who get stabbed did not know their opponent had a bladed weapon.

Many people who get stabbed think they have been hit by a blunt object until they see the blood.

If you fight someone with a knife you are likely to suffer at least one stabbing injury.

Once you have blood on your hands, juho is almost impossible (try juho with vaseline on your hands - it's apparently somewhat similar).

Best defense against stabbing is to avoid situations where stabbings are likely. Zanshin is particularly important.

[sean dixie]

Last year I gave over a whole lesson purely on knife defenses including sylabus techniques to all, irraspective of grade plus my own thoughts and ideas on the subject. With knife crime 'seemingly' on the rise this is something I think we should all do. As Tony rightly points out awareness of your location/situation is paramount, I knew a guy who was 'hamstrung' whilst putting his key in his front door - what can you do? Hopefully if i ever face this I'll be wearing my biker gear (plenty of kevlar there) or there is always this. (http://www.bladerunner.tv/product/details.php?id=Bladerunne)

Mind you, with a bit of tinkering we could take Tonys spaceship a little further out and nuke the whole city, hmmm......

[Tripitaka of AA]

Last year I gave over a whole lesson purely on knife defenses including sylabus techniques to all, irraspective of grade plus my own thoughts and ideas on the subject. With knife crime 'seemingly' on the rise this is something I think we should all do..
my bold

Ah.

Actually, I disagree.

Unless you are prepared to do a lot of research outside of Shorinji Kempo. Gather lots of reliable data from authoritative sources and talk to professonals with reliable "real-life" experience. In short, to become an "expert" on the specifics of knife encounters, prior to offering anything to students that might potentially lead them into a delusional belief that they can "deal" with a knife attack.

No disrespect to Sean, as he may very well be the "expert" that I describe. Just the suggestion that we should all be teaching knife defenses, implies that we might all be capable of defending against such attacks... and this could be more dangerous than anything.


I speak as the perfect example of whatever word means the opposite of "expert". So please treat my comments with whatever amount of salt you think appropriate :).

[tony leith]

Unless you are prepared to do a lot of research outside of Shorinji Kempo. Gather lots of reliable data from authoritative sources and talk to professonals with reliable "real-life" experience. In short, to become an "expert" on the specifics of knife encounters, prior to offering anything to students that might potentially lead them into a delusional belief that they can "deal" with a knife attack.

Well, up to a point. I would agree that we shouldn't promote the belief that one is entitled to feel sanguine about surviving a knife fight, or that running way/handing over you money might not be preferred options to taking on an edged weapon. Nevertheless, any one of us might not get the chance to choose whether we take on an attacker with a knife, and to not do anything to prepare your students for that possibility would be a dereliction of our duty as instructors.

As I said above, taking practice of normal techniques as seriously as we should goes a long way. Shita uke geri - if somebody's trying to stab you, you might well not be aware of it, so don't assume its just a punch. Treat any and every similar attack as potentially lethal. People who have actually been stabbed have remained unaware of it until they realise they're leaking. Uwa uke geri/zuki - likewise, nobody is that likely to attack you with shuto uchi for real, but they are quite likely to bottle you or smack you in the head with a half brick (a very readily concealable improvised weapon).

Again, techniques should be practised with literally deadly seriousness. In the end, if they're not, they're not preparing you for situations where your life could be on the line.

Tony leith

[Ewok]

Ah, we're getting dangerously close to the point where we have this idea that we can defend against a knife, then it'll be a whole sword, then we'll be doing handguns.

Isn't this close to the point where if you want to defend against a gun, you might as well be learning how to use one yourself? (or replace gun for knife).

[Sochin]

Sobering data:

70% of people who get stabbed did not know their opponent had a bladed weapon.

Many people who get stabbed think they have been hit by a blunt object until they see the blood.

If you fight someone with a knife you are likely to suffer at least one stabbing injury.

Once you have blood on your hands, juho is almost impossible (try juho with vaseline on your hands - it's apparently somewhat similar).

Best defense against stabbing is to avoid situations where stabbings are likely. Zanshin is particularly important.

Just curious Rob,

may I have the cite references for these stats or where they are located?

Thanks,

[Sochin]

Charles Nelson, one of the grandfathers of American close quarter combat, was asked how he would defend against a knife.

He suggested it was a bad thing to try but if he had to, perhaps a lighting like kick followed by appropriate hand techniques might work.

He was then asked, "Could you show us, please, sir?" to which he apparently replied: "Did you miss the part about 'lightning like'? I'm over 65 years old, I don't do lightning like any more!"

[Rob Gassin]

Just curious Rob,

may I have the cite references for these stats or where they are located?

Thanks,

I love trivia. I read it somewhere - in the past 45 years. I'll try to locate the source of at least some of the stats in the coming days and post it.

Cheers,

[sean dixie]

my bold

Ah.

Actually, I disagree.

Unless you are prepared to do a lot of research outside of Shorinji Kempo. Gather lots of reliable data from authoritative sources and talk to professonals with reliable "real-life" experience. In short, to become an "expert" on the specifics of knife encounters, prior to offering anything to students that might potentially lead them into a delusional belief that they can "deal" with a knife attack.

No disrespect to Sean, as he may very well be the "expert" that I describe. Just the suggestion that we should all be teaching knife defenses, implies that we might all be capable of defending against such attacks... and this could be more dangerous than anything.


I speak as the perfect example of whatever word means the opposite of "expert". So please treat my comments with whatever amount of salt you think appropriate :).

A good point made, but by that idea I'm also no self defence teacher either having never fully used technique. :) Maybe one of my students might like to come in here...I can see you all lurking! :)

Anyway being no expert I hope I give no impression to students that they are an expert after a couple of lessons. In short i teach Shorinji techniques coupled with things i myself have been taught over the years by various Sensei along the way. Ewok wrote (both Paul and I can't do multiple quotes :p ) that we might be getting dangerously close to believing we can defend against knives. Given the right or should that be wrong curcumstances you can - if your very, very lucky. Marshal arts training can give you the important techniques needed, very simple ideas handed down about the different timings, and importantly different distances involved with weapons training. I teach nothing more than I've been taught by my seniors.

As has been suggested, knife crime is perhaps on the increase, i can say that in the BSKF, defenses against weapons in combination with appropriate howa on the subject is taught to kenshi. As with all techniques, your instructor won't be there for you if you ever need a technique. It's up to you whether your up to the fight or not, but if you or someone close has their life on the line you need to make a snap judgement and if you go in it's better to have even a little knowledge of the subject than none at all. Even if it's all theory, and for most of us instructors these days thats all it is - theory.

[sean dixie]

An interesting idea I came across years ago in fight arts magazine I think was an instuctor who would simulate knives with magic markers. Rest assured many an 'expert' knife fighter was left more than a little embarrassed (and covered in thick red 'slashes')

If you try this at home I recommend NOT using your brand new gold lable dogi! :p

[Steve Malton]

A good point made, but by that idea I'm also no self defence teacher either having never fully used technique. Maybe one of my students might like to come in here...I can see you all lurking!
Lurking indeed. Isn't this what we try to tell students though? Cooperative training is all well and good while trying to learn and get to grips with the technique, but at some point you need to train against a committed attack from a resisting opponent. Several bops to the nose from Sean in randori are testament to the fact that I don't do this enough. ;)


An interesting idea I came across years ago in fight arts magazine I think was an instuctor who would simulate knives with magic markers. Rest assured many an 'expert' knife fighter was left more than a little embarrassed (and covered in thick red 'slashes')

If you try this at home I recommend NOT using your brand new gold lable dogi! :p
This is quite possibly the greatest idea I have ever heard. Shall I pass by WHSmiths on my way in on Sunday? :D

[Tripitaka of AA]

I can't remember where I heard that one, but it is also something they do with "Gun Disarms" !!!

They get some paintball guns, or similar, and load them up with paint and have a go at the techniques that they have learned.

It acts as an eye-opener in the same way as that special "reveal" paste that Dentists can use to show you how badly you are brushing. On its own, it won't teach you how to do the technique, but it will show you very quickly whether you are as good as you think you are.

Allegedly.

I speak, once more, from a position of virtual knowledge only.

[tony leith]

Sean


An interesting idea I came across years ago in fight arts magazine I think was an instuctor who would simulate knives with magic markers. Rest assured many an 'expert' knife fighter was left more than a little embarrassed (and covered in thick red 'slashes')

Steve


This is quite possibly the greatest idea I have ever heard. Shall I pass by WHSmiths on my way in on Sunday?

Er, guys, how about getting a rubber tanto and putting some red chalk on it?Just a thought. Slightly less damaging to your dogi, equally pants wettingly thought provoking in a 'get me to casualty, stat!' kind of way.

Leon


Ah, we're getting dangerously close to the point where we have this idea that we can defend against a knife, then it'll be a whole sword, then we'll be doing handguns.

Er, no. At no point have I ever suggested that I think taking on somebody with a knife is a good idea, but you know, if they're going to stab/slash you anyway, what would you suggest - pleading for mercy? Oh, hang on, given that they're carrying a deadly weapon with the intent to use it, perhaps this might not be forthcoming.

Swords unfortunately are not unknown in Glasgow -we have shops which sell the damn things, which is up there in 'what are you thinking?' with selling automatic weapons to the public in my book (these are tools designed expressly for the purpose of killing other human beings, period. Fencers, kendo and iaido practioners will probably not be getting theirs from emporia which also stock crossbows, hgh powered airguns, and butterfly knives)

Somebody I know once witnessed two guys having a sword fight on the street which owed very little to Errol Flynn - but knives are somewhat more prevalent than claymores in Glasgow, being slightly easier to conceal.

Edged weapons are incredibly dangerous, precisely because of how much easier they make it to inflict lethal damage on another person. Nevertheless, it is humanly possible to evade a knife thrust in a way that it simply isn't human possible to evade a bullet (we just don't have the evolutionary equipment to cope with projectiles moving at hundreds of metres/second). As I've heard Mizuno Sensei say 'If they've got a gun, I prefer to give up'.

Tony leith

[cheunglo]

Actually, I disagree.
Unless you are prepared to do a lot of research outside of Shorinji Kempo. Gather lots of reliable data from authoritative sources and talk to professonals with reliable "real-life" experience. In short, to become an "expert" on the specifics of knife encounters, prior to offering anything to students that might potentially lead them into a delusional belief that they can "deal" with a knife attack.
No disrespect to Sean, as he may very well be the "expert" that I describe. Just the suggestion that we should all be teaching knife defenses, implies that we might all be capable of defending against such attacks... and this could be more dangerous than anything.


I agree that nothing beats actual experience in this matter but for training, you have to start somewhere. Even a non-expert can discover the depth of ignorance that they have.

There is above average weapons training at Abbey Dojo.


It IS from Abbey branch
It COULD be nyoi randori
Sensei Jee DOES like playing with weapons

I agree that an explaination should have been put on the youtube clip, as it stands it is not representitave of ShorinjiKempo practice (as it states in the title) but is a POSSIBLE part of ShorinjiKempo practice

Steve Williams implies that Abbey may be playing at weapons. I will say this however. Students at Abbey know very well how ill equipped they are against bladed weapons and the myriad ways that they can hurt defending against them.

We have also however discovered this. The best defence against a lethal force encounter (don't doubt it) is not to be there. However, if you are there, relying solely on unarmed techniques is not the best of ideas. If you have to defend against a knife, the further away you can be the better (not strictly true but if you do not know the exceptions then for you, it is true). In Britain, it is not a legal defence to say you are carrying a weapon to defend yourself in case you are attacked. However, here is an possibility. Buy a short thin tube, the kind often used to post documents/magazines. Fill it with rolled up paper and write an address on it with the correct postage. If you attacked with a knife, this little package can save your life.

Your chances increase even more if you practice against simulated knife attacks. You can even extend your Shorinji Kempo repoitoire if you attend a class where the Sensei knows how to use weapons with Shorinji Kempo movements.

I have carefully reviewed this message before posting and I know that I am antagonistic in some places. However, if it galvanises you to go and learn something more about this then it was worth it.

[dax]

Buy a short thin tube, the kind often used to post documents/magazines. Fill it with rolled up paper and write an address on it with the correct postage. If you attacked with a knife, this little package can save your life.


Could you elaborate on this? The only way I can imagine this helping is if you are mailing a gun in that tube. :karatekid

[Ronnie Smart]

Certainly going unarmed against a knife is one of the worst alternatives, but that red chalk on tanto thing might work as a kind of 'live' practice of knife defenses.

I remember a few years ago I had a play with a friend who did a different martial art, and was working as a doorman, we got a rubber knife and tried to treat it like a live blade, then tried to protect ourselves from it. We both got cut and stabbed, a lot. Puts the reality of the situation out there for me. And yes, you may not even see the knife... but I do believe it is better to train in something for if a situation arises.

Yes, what do you guys do at the Abbey dojo, Cheung Lo? I would have thought, from looking at ideas from military combatives, that moving in and attacking the CNS as hard and as quickly as possible would be a good bet, if you were in a weapon's danger zone. If you are far enough away, then running would be a better option, wouldn't it? Are you talking about using objects to create space so that you can run? Not criticising, just want to understand more of what you guys do to be better prepared against weapons.


Ronnie

[Steve Williams]

There is above average weapons training at Abbey Dojo.

We often play with knives as well, don't for one moment think that Abbey have a monopoly on such practice, i know for a fact that Paul White sensei plays with weapons a lot also......



Steve Williams implies that Abbey may be playing at weapons. I will say this however. Students at Abbey know very well how ill equipped they are against bladed weapons and the myriad ways that they can hurt defending against them.
That is said in a condescending tone Cheung..... after all these years and you still do not know what I really think? Lucky for me Jee sensei knows me better eh.....
I did say playing, its your italics, I do not use the word playing in a condescending way, as anyone else should (and I think did) realise.


I have carefully reviewed this message before posting and I know that I am antagonistic in some places. However, if it galvanises you to go and learn something more about this then it was worth it.
Or maybe you will just piss people off and they will not bother?

The rest of what you said (and I did not quote) was spot on......
Any time you are down in our neck of the woods then feel free to train, we can play with some knives....

[Steve Williams]

Just an addition.

In my training bag I ALWAYS have some wooden and some plastic/rubber tanto/knives......
We will train/play with them about once a month...... and I will encourage ALL of my kenshi to take part......

This WILL NOT make them expert knife fighters, and the first thing I say is "if someone attacks you with a blade you WILL be cut......but the more we play like this then hopefully you will lessen the damage you will sustain"....
So the more yo practice, the less of a "surprise" it will be if you are unfortunate enough to have a blade pulled on you.....

[Ronnie Smart]

Sounds like good practice. The emphasis is on survival, I've heard that you will get cut, and playing around (well, I mean playing seriously) with a rubber knife showed me how easy it was to cut the other person. Scary!

Steve, I've practised a couple of tanto defenses (I think the nidan ones). Do you practice these kinds of techniques a lot or do you work on distancing , evading, and looking for striking options against other attacks that could potentially contain a knife attack?

[cheunglo]

Could you elaborate on this? The only way I can imagine this helping is if you are mailing a gun in that tube. :karatekid
Think of it as a stick or, if you like, nyo.

A knife-armed attacker has 2 major advantages over an unarmed defender.
(A) The knife is sharp and can cut or stab.
(B) The knife increases the reach of the attacker by the length of the blade (plus a little bit more).

However, if the defender is aware of the attack, it is advantage (B) which allows the attacker to bring advantage (A) into force. If you can nullify advantage (B) you have, by proxy, nullified advantage (A). I use the package example because:
1. Increasing your reach with something that does not hurt if it cut drastically increases your effectivess against a knife.
2. It is simple to implement.
3. It does not make you fall afoul of the law.



Yes, what do you guys do at the Abbey dojo, Cheung Lo? I would have thought, from looking at ideas from military combatives, that moving in and attacking the CNS as hard and as quickly as possible would be a good bet, if you were in a weapon's danger zone. If you are far enough away, then running would be a better option, wouldn't it? Are you talking about using objects to create space so that you can run? Not criticising, just want to understand more of what you guys do to be better prepared against weapons.
I think just about everyone on this thread has said that the best defence is to not be around a knife attack. However, in the dojo, we experiment and practice with a large number of scenarios. Running away is a good option (if available) but you don't need to practice this in the dojo.

I have deliberately shied away from discussing individual techniques since a forum is not the best place for that and I'm afraid that I do not know what CNS is.



That is said in a condescending tone Cheung..... after all these years and you still do not know what I really think? Lucky for me Jee sensei knows me better eh.....
I did say playing, its your italics, I do not use the word playing in a condescending way, as anyone else should (and I think did) realise.
That was said in a chiding tone. What you said initially was condescending which, since I do know what you think, made it all the more pernicious. However, since we have now both clarified our words, we can leave it behind us.




Or maybe you will just piss people off and they will not bother?
It seems to me that people reading this thread will fall into 3 groups:
1. Those who will go out and learn more regardless of what is said.
2. Those who won't regardless of what is said.
3. Those who would not have but something that is said either positively encourages or negatively provokes them to go out and learn more. We should cover both angles.



Any time you are down in our neck of the woods then feel free to train, we can play with some knives
That's a deal, although, it's not like we haven't done this before on numerous occasions (OK not recently).

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Cooperative training is all well and good while trying to learn and get to grips with the technique, but at some point you need to train against a committed attack from a resisting opponent.
In juho of course many of our techniques are practical or even possible at all only if the attack is strong and committed.
But to achieve effectiveness a lot of cooperative training is needed first. And all the time.

[paul browne]

Gassho
When I read Ronnie's opening post I was going to pm a response but as so many are discussing it I might as well join the fray.
This is all just my opinion.
Firstly, and obviously, no-one in there right mind should willingly face an armed oponent (whether your armed or not) so avoiding the situation/ withdrawing from a situation would be the very best option. However as has been pointed out we won't get to choose when a weapon is used against us leaving us with four options.
1) Decide that there is no hope of defeating a knife/weapon weilding opponent and surrender to your fate.
2) Don't train for it and if it happens hope your orthodox techniques will prevail.
3) Only train the two Tanto Dori techniques that are in the Nidan syllabus and hope (some hope!!) that the attack follows these lines.
4) Do some independant research (with a well developed !!!!!!!! filter) and on occasion practise in a mature, realistic and structured manner against knife attacks.
If (as many on this forum have) you choose the latter, you should view clips of assaults and see how the knife is used by real people (you don't need to study Escrima/Ninja knifefighting/Commando killing or Jim Bowies patented Alamo self defence system:)) simply use the knife in a natural non-martial arty manner remembering it doesn't require power or focus to effect a cut or stab, that it can cut on both the thrust and the withdrawal and that it can be 'pumped' very very quickly.
Experiment, if you are defending wear goggles, and a mouth gaurd (doesn't make sense to lose an eye or teeth in training) and have the attacker attack seriously. If you receive a cut/stab don't stop, keep fighting (you will get cut in real life, you can't stop until you've escaped). Practice in a progressive manner, (1) deflection against a moderately fast attack from an agreed direction, (2) same again with counter strikes, (3) same again with greater speed and aggression from the attacker, (4) Light, free, moderately paced attacks, with pre-emption when possible.(5) Full speed, aggressive free attacks (probably best with protectors for the attacker) When playing the attacker you should focus on trying to 'kill' your victim, not co-operating with him.
I have been exposed (through my work) to three different edged weapon defence systems, all had something to offer, all were broadly different, and none offered any advantage over Shorinji Kempo in terms of technical options available. I've also reached the conclusion that there are few if any 'knife defence experts' just people who've researched and experimented.
As Rob said Juho should be a secondary option, If it happens go for it but rely more on attacking the legs, groin, neck and eyes. Interestingly on a course with Mori sensei (having been misrepresented to him by Mizuno Sensei as some kind of DEA special agent:)) he showed some knife defence and stated you should deflect the knife any was you can. He advocated blasting the knife arm away from you and then killing (his word not mine:)) him with Goho. Despite his tremendous juho he felt Goho was safer.
A statistic bandied about on the courses I've done is that one in ten people die if shot whilst three in ten die if stabbed, however this means that seven out of ten survive. These figures make no account of training so one can assume most are untrained. A well known self-defence instructor Hock Hocheim makes the observation regarding knife defence that in his career as a detective he interviewed dozens of knife attack victims who fought back , all had been cut but all had survived (obviously he didn't interview the dead ones) and none had any training. I can offer two examples of knife defence survivors who fought back and prevailed (albeit with injuries) without training, Lisa Potts and Mr. & Mrs George Harrison.
I would have to respectfully disagree with Dave and Leon regarding the idea that we would have to become 'experts' in knife defence if we are to study/teach it, or that there has to be some sort of escalation (today I practiced knife defence, tommorow it's katana and at the weekend I'm doing AK47's and RPG7's :)).
As Steve say's, at Paul White sensei dojo we do some edged weapon defence (and the use of Shorinji Buki) the secret is to balance it in your normal training. Don't over emphasise it, don't believe you have all the answers, treat it seriously, research a little.
Any way as I said , just my opinions. This is way longer than I planned it and sorry if this is rambling, i'm typing it around my paid employment:).
Paul
Kesshu

[paul browne]

Gassho,
This one's short I promise:)

Cheung gave some interesting and well meant advice regarding the preparation of an item for self defence and this is in no way a criticism.
However a word of warning.
Under UK law it is an offence to carry any item for the purpose of defence, and if such an item is adapted in any way it becomes a 'made offensive weapon' (e.g. rolled paper in tube, rolled magazine with big elastic band to keep it rolled). Even if you were legitimate in defending yourself, and in using an instrument to do so, the act of preparing a weapon puts you in contravention of the law. A google search on a persons name would produce posts that an individual has written that will potentially prove a prosecution case.
I carry a pen to write with, a mini maglite to see in the dark, a brush for my hair and an umbrella to keep me dry.
I practice Dokko, Nyoi and Shakujo as part of the tradition of Shorinji Kempo.
You cannot be prosecuted for having knowledge.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[Ewok]

today I practiced knife defence, tommorow it's katana and at the weekend I'm doing AK47's and RPG7's :)

Laugh now but I've seen it happen! :p They even threw in how to overwhelm someone with a Jo and then use it against them, at which point I had to excuse myself before I passed out from keeping myself from laughing at the insanity I'd stumbled into.

[paul browne]

Hi Leon,
I don't doubt it occurs, especially in some the more .....clutching for a word....paranoid(?) 'reality' based self-defence schools.
However I'm a little surprised at your opinion on the Jo taking practice. That's a very common and orthodox training topic for practice in aikido.
I don't expect they train it as a serious defence against enraged janitors running amok with broom handles (after all the only trained janitor is Penry.....and he's mild mannered:)) but it is nonetheless a 'normal' training practice.
Paul

[sean dixie]

In our last Imperial session with Gee Sensei as guest he had us Dan grades surround him (he'd finished with the Kyu grades for a bit) He had his famous home made Nyoi in hand - we had tanto. "Right, your going to attack OK?" As we start to nod he beats us all around the head hard! "What do think? I'm going to let you attack me with knives?!" :rolleyes:

Stick to goho, if you have a chance get yourself a weapon too, it'll even the odds and don't stop till your sure you can get away. And yes I have assumed your left without the option to run.

As a sideline, many years ago (san kyu) I had the crap kicked out of me by seven lads. Just for the jolly of it on a Saturday night. I actually hit the first guy hard and dropped him. This REALLY irritated the rest so off I ran. The upshot was that they were actually far fitter that me and so caught up and got me from behind - I had know chance. Being kicked hard in the head by seven blokes is no fun I can assure you. In hindsite I have always thought that a beating was probably inevitable and I should have stood my ground and maybe at least taken the next one out. (Believe it or not they did come in a line!) Just trying to say that running is all well and good, but if your a forty something and havn't run for years, faced with a teenager you might be better placed not to turn your back on him/them.

[cheunglo]

I carry a pen to write with, a mini maglite to see in the dark, a brush for my hair and an umbrella to keep me dry.
For the amount of hair that you have, could you seriously argue the case for having a brush?
:)

Seriously though, I haven't been around on this forum for quite a while and it was really good to hear from you!

Incidently, I now have a 2 year old so I'm catching up on you. I haven't heard anything about Steve so maybe he is lagging behind. I'll PM both of you later with a link to some photos.



Cheung gave some interesting and well meant advice regarding the preparation of an item for self defence and this is in no way a criticism.
However a word of warning.
Under UK law it is an offence to carry any item for the purpose of defence, and if such an item is adapted in any way it becomes a 'made offensive weapon' (e.g. rolled paper in tube, rolled magazine with big elastic band to keep it rolled). Even if you were legitimate in defending yourself, and in using an instrument to do so, the act of preparing a weapon puts you in contravention of the law. A google search on a persons name would produce posts that an individual has written that will potentially prove a prosecution case.

I wasn't aware of this particular gotcha. Fortunately I wouldn't dream of carrying anything I described earlier. Does this apply to readers of this thread? Presumably if you were being prosecuted for applying a mundance object as a weapon, this meant that you had to use it in the first place. Take the hairbrush example - could you be randomly prosecuted for just having one?



I practice Dokko, Nyoi and Shakujo as part of the tradition of Shorinji Kempo.
You cannot be prosecuted for having knowledge.

Could you clarify this with regards to having knowledge, for example, to making an improvised explosive device (IED). I was pretty sure that downloading such material was now an offence and am no longer sure you cannot be prosecuted for just having knowledge.

[Kaenzig]

Call me crazy but I don't think running away is the best solution in a knive fight.
It's only the best solution if you are sure you can't defeat the attacker.
If you could win the fight and run away because you're afraid you could be injured, you haven't stopped the attacker (which is the meaning of BU in shorinji Kempo) and he will continue to attack and injure other people. Don't get me wrong, I certainly do not think I could defend against a knive fighter (after all I'm just a little 2kyu weakling :) ) and I would most possibly avoid the fight but I definetly think a well trained, high - ranked martial artist can defeat opponents with edged weapons.

PS: Though I know that this is the wrong thread for it, i wish to add my congratulations to Robert Gassin for his 2 dan. I didn't write anything here since weeks (had to learn for many tests) but I hope this post makes some sence.

[Rob Gassin]

Call me crazy but I don't think running away is the best solution in a knive fight.
It's only the best solution if you are sure you can't defeat the attacker.
If you could win the fight and run away because you're afraid you could be injured, you haven't stopped the attacker (which is the meaning of BU in shorinji Kempo) and he will continue to attack and injure other people. Don't get me wrong, I certainly do not think I could defend against a knive fighter (after all I'm just a little 2kyu weakling :) ) and I would most possibly avoid the fight but I definetly think a well trained, high - ranked martial artist can defeat opponents with edged weapons.

PS: Though I know that this is the wrong thread for it, i wish to add my congratulations to Robert Gassin for his 2 dan. I didn't write anything here since weeks (had to learn for many tests) but I hope this post makes some sence. Thanks Fabian.

[Rob Gassin]

Just curious Rob,

may I have the cite references for these stats or where they are located?

Thanks,

At least some of the 'facts' I cited are recollections of my reading of info written by Darren Laur. There is a lot of useful information in the following link

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/EDGED%20WEAPON%20TACTICS%20AND%20COUNTER%20TACTICS.doc

[paul browne]

Hi Cheung,
I'll pm you on the domestic front when I've got more time.

Yep, I was lying about me carrying a hairbrush:) I just polish the little I have!! and no just having a hairbrush wouldn't cause a problem unless it could be proved you carried it as a weapon.

I take your point in IED's, a bit of an exceptional circumstance. Interestingly the Public records office have published a training syllabus for the SOE and the Home Gaurd training manual, both of which detail how to make IED's, Molotov cocktails, sabotage vehicles and trains, mount ambushes etc.
They don't include the words Infidel, Jihad, Fatwa so I suppose that makes them OK:)

Fabian,
I can see your moral standpoint but the circumstance in which you would feel confident in defending unarmed against a serious edged weapon attack will be few and far between no matter how skilled. There are of course circumstaces when you might feel obliged to do so, disarming a self-harmer for instance, or in protection of others, but if circumstances allow, escape is the VERY best option. Of course this is totally dependant on you having the time, distance and ability to do so. Sensei Russell Jenkins once said that a knife is worth 10 years of serious martial arts study and I feel this was a conservative estimate. If you are defending against a knife, no matter what grade you are, you are fighting for your life and one contact can be fatal, it is that simple.
Regards
Paul

[paul browne]

Hi Rob
Just read the link you posted. The Pat, Wrap, Attack is one of the three systems I've been taught (and taught to teach) and the other info was part of the training package. It works well but offers no real advantage to a trained person as it requires a huge change in approach from your normal one. For untrained people it's really easy to teach and get results.

Incidently regarding the situation mentioned by Tony where he thought the Police officers could have shot a man in the leg there is an interesting problem here (Beyond the fact that hitting a limb is very hard).
In law discharging a firearm at someone is deadly force. You can only use deadly force if you have reasonable grounds to believe you or a third party were in immediate danger of death or serious injury. If you shoot someone in the leg because they presented less of a threat than for example a more agressive attacker (who you would shoot in the chest, as trained) and the person you shoot in the leg bleeds to death you will be asked why you shot them in the leg. Your reply will be they needed stopping but weren't so serious a threat they needed shooting in the chest. Logically then you weren't in immediate danger of death or serious injury.
So you weren't justified in using deadly force.
At this point you will need a liking for porridge, small rooms, communal showers and to purchase some soap on a rope:)
Catch 22.
regards
paul

[Steve Williams]

I was going to say......

Paul, you cannot write, you have no hair, you don't go out at night and its the summer....... but Cheung beat me to it on the hair one, so its not so funny.... (still true though ;) )

Sean, obviously you still bear the scars from your "head kicking"...... your spelling is terrible...... ;)

[sean dixie]

Steve, you got the brains, I got the looks.....maybe we could make lots of money? :rolleyes: :p

[Mark Murray]

Just some food for thought ...

What can a knife do?

Well, obviously, cut. It cuts either pushing or pulling. So, an incoming blade might not connect on the initial attack, but it can cut on the retreat.

Stab. This is just a thrust of the blade into a body area. The nasty version of this is when the attacker leaves the blade buried in the body so that each time the body moves, more damage is done. Who has time to remove an embedded knife in the middle of a fight?

Pick. Perhaps not so "life threatening" (although it can be), but this is when the tip goes into skin a slight way and then pulls outward in a somewhat sideways fashion, taking a chunk of skin with it. If part of the chunk is an artery, it's not good. Enough successful picks can be demoralizing. That's a fight ender.

Core. Nasty little cut and can be very lethal. This is like coring an apple. The knife goes in and then moves in a coring fashion. Picture this little maneuver in the armpit. Just a second or two to sever the artery and death is 99.9% certain. How often do we think about protecting the armpit area?

Flay. An ugly little attack. This is where the knife starts a cut, is turned sideways to the body area, and then the knife is drawn along the body area. This detaches whole sections of skin and muscle. Picture the knife coming in, a block is used, and on retreat the knife flays down the arm, cutting flesh and muscle. It's very disconcerting to see a huge flap of skin and muscle hanging from one's arm, along with all the blood it produces. Very demoralizing.

Impact. The handle can be used as a blunt instrument. Hit a nerve complex, a soft target, or bust a knuckle, and this gives time for the next attack which will most likely be one of the above.

Traps. Either with blade in or blade out. Can be used to temporarily block/neutralize an attack while setting up any of the above. Blade out only requires a slight turn of the wrist to cut, etc. Blade in cuts as part of the trap.

A competent (not expert) knife fighter can do multiples of these in one attack. An expert will do multiples, but one or more will be lethal. But, still, never discount the amateur. He/she could do any one of them just by flashing the knife around while trying to cut you.

IMO,
Mark

[dirk.bruere]

Ah, we're getting dangerously close to the point where we have this idea that we can defend against a knife, then it'll be a whole sword, then we'll be doing handguns.

Isn't this close to the point where if you want to defend against a gun, you might as well be learning how to use one yourself? (or replace gun for knife).

I have done training against handguns, using a loaded air pistol. The only way you stand a chance is if the attacker actually holds the gun against you (and doesn't shoot you immediately). If they back off a step or more then you're out of luck.

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

We have also however discovered this. The best defence against a lethal force encounter (don't doubt it) is not to be there. However, if you are there, relying solely on unarmed techniques is not the best of ideas. If you have to defend against a knife, the further away you can be the better (not strictly true but if you do not know the exceptions then for you, it is true). In Britain, it is not a legal defence to say you are carrying a weapon to defend yourself in case you are attacked. However, here is an possibility. Buy a short thin tube, the kind often used to post documents/magazines. Fill it with rolled up paper and write an address on it with the correct postage. If you attacked with a knife, this little package can save your life.

Alternatively, the world is full of weapons. A nice open dojo is the last place you'll be attacked for real. A crowded pub is far more likely. 'Weapons' range from chairs and table to throwing other people at the attacker (probably not in the SK spirit though). Not to mention bottles, glasses. Then there are distraction techniques that I bet nobody here has practiced in a dojo eg spitting at the attacker to make them flinch. Or even throwing a handful of coins in their face. And if you don't have a handy rolled up tube of hard stuff at hand, try a shoe (even someone elses shoe).

Dirk

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thank you Mark.
A sobering post indeed.

I dare say that I am not the only one here to read that and say "eeww, I never even THOUGHT of that!".

Which takes us back to the point I made earlier. If you are in a position to impart knowledge to people, which may then be used by those people in the gravest of circumstances... please make sure you really know what you're talking about.

[paul browne]

Gassho,

Which takes us back to the point I made earlier. If you are in a position to impart knowledge to people, which may then be used by those people in the gravest of circumstances... please make sure you really know what you're talking about.

Hi Dave,
Thats where the reasearch bit comes in, not just from martial sources (Self-defence, Filipino martial arts etc) but, unpleasant though it is, from the myriad of CCTV footage that plagues the Net (Youtube etc).
Then balance this with a healthy level of common sense so you don't wind up paranoid:).

Qoute Steve:Paul, you cannot write, you have no hair, you don't go out at night and its the summer.......

Right that's it....you can't stand under my umbrella,ella,ella,ella:)

Paul
Kesshu

[Ronnie Smart]

I'm glad I started this thread. I'm learning a lot, from the links and from the many balanced viewpoints. Hope I never have to face a knife close range but think that the advice here gives me a better perspective to investigate my options. :)

Gassho all.

Ronnie.

[cheunglo]

... and no just having a hairbrush wouldn't cause a problem unless it could be proved you carried it as a weapon...

Although I don't normally post documents wrapped in a tube, I cycle to work and routinely carry a tool kit consisting of a pump, a spanner, a multi-tool penknife and PTFE tape. I carry those items since they are essential to fixing a deflated tyre as well as tighting nuts and bolts. These items are always in my rucksack even if I don't take my bike as it would be really inconvenient to have to remove and put them back all the time.



Alternatively, the world is full of weapons. A nice open dojo is the last place you'll be attacked for real. A crowded pub is far more likely. 'Weapons' range from chairs and table to throwing other people at the attacker (probably not in the SK spirit though). Not to mention bottles, glasses. Then there are distraction techniques that I bet nobody here has practiced in a dojo eg spitting at the attacker to make them flinch. Or even throwing a handful of coins in their face. And if you don't have a handy rolled up tube of hard stuff at hand, try a shoe (even someone elses shoe).

As Dirk pointed out, all sorts of mundane objects can be used as weapons. Is it now the case that simply being heedful (and noticing that a particualar object can be put to other uses) can now be used as supporting material for a prosecution?

Also since we 3 have practiced Shorinji Kempo for more than a couple of decades, it could be argued that we are more likely to make such connections. I stated earlier that I wasn't sure that you cannot be prosecuted for just having knowledge. Now, I not even sure you cannot be prosecuted for just being observant.

[paul browne]

Gassho,
Re-reading my first post on this topic I realised the post may have come accross as 'preachy' which wasn't my intention (I was just typing quickly so the boss didn't catch me:)) and the suggestions for training were just that, suggestions based on how we train knife defence in our dojo.
As far as Shorinji Kempo and knife defence goes I think a distinction needs to be drawn between Tanto Dori (the formal syllabus knife defences) and Edged Weapon Defence (staying in one piece in daily life). I think it is significant that the syllabus for Shorinji has only two specified knife defences (Tanto Tsukikomi and Tanto Furi Age).
By comparrison Tomiki Aikido teaches 8 formal knife defences, Judo teaches 8 (divided between two kata's) and Wado Ryu karate teaches 10 (these figures may vary slightly between organisations). But all are, like Shorinji's, practiced in a very formal manner against attacks delivered in a manner uncommon in the UK (Long straight lunges, wide slashes and large downward stabs). Sometimes a Tanto Dori embu is created for demonstrations using other combinations of Goho and Juho and there is nothing wrong with this provided that it is realised that this is a formal demonstration of skill in Shorinji Kempo, NOT a selection of knife defence strategies for street use. A demonstration of those makes for a very scruffy, dissatisfying and unedifying display:).
I asked Adrian Foster-Starr sensei for his input as I felt it would be useful, and I'll post a summary of his comments separately.
I don't think we should give this topic too much emphasis as it's really easy to go overboard with it. (though how much may depend on locallity , a dojo in Shangri-La can ignore it completely, Tony lives in the knife murder capital of Western Europe......but if he gets injured his prescriptions are free:))
Now go back to my movie topic it's much more cheerful:)
paul
Kesshu

[paul browne]

Gassho
Hello again,
As I said, below is a summary of a PM between myself and Adrian after I solicited his opinion on the topic. The decision to post a summary of his comments was mine (I hope he doesn't mind) as I feel they are pertinent.
For those that don't know Adrian is a serving police officer.

Evening all,

1) Shorinji Kempo does NOT teach effective sharp edge or pointed short weapon defence via its syllabus. (nor does any other mainstream martial art) italics are my addition..Paul

2) Most of its practitioners have no idea about reasonable force in self defence. It is a criminal offence to carry an implement adapted to cause injury.

3) Best bet with a knife: run if that's a viable option, hit them with a chair if it isn't, after that you're probably going to get cut and it will depend on luck and your mindset as to whether you survive.

4) "Playing" in a dojo with rules (against a knife......won't help) italics are my paraphrase, his comment was more succinct:)

5) I deal with stab victims, few EVER see the knife and a vast majority are stabbed in the back or whilst on the ground.

6) Anyone that shows you a knife is using it as a tool to generate compliance through fear, if that's theft request (your watch now!) best suggestion is to give them your watch.

7) Best advice FOR EVERY SINGLE FIGHT is to make an early decision as to what you're going to do to resolve this conflict then WHOLLY commit to it, like a rugby tackle, don't show fear, create shock and awe, hit fast, hard and often and never relax even after you think the fight's over.

Should Adrian request I will withdraw this post and I hope it's contribution is taken in the spirit in which it is meant. As an informed (him not me:)) opinion on edged weapon defence and it's position in Shorinji Kempo.
Paul
Kesshu

[dirk.bruere]

As Dirk pointed out, all sorts of mundane objects can be used as weapons. Is it now the case that simply being heedful (and noticing that a particualar object can be put to other uses) can now be used as supporting material for a prosecution?

Also since we 3 have practiced Shorinji Kempo for more than a couple of decades, it could be argued that we are more likely to make such connections. I stated earlier that I wasn't sure that you cannot be prosecuted for just having knowledge. Now, I not even sure you cannot be prosecuted for just being observant.

For me, *I don't care*. If or after I have dealt with the knife attack *then* I'll worry about the police. Also, like everything such 'observation' requires practice. To really work it also needs a paranoid mentality. For example, everywhere you go you make a mental note of who looks dangerous, where the trouble might be and the position of every possible improvised weapon that could be used. Most people find this too exhausting for something that is, statistically, never likely to happen to the average person.

Dirk

[paul browne]

Hi Cheung,
I wasn't suggesting that if, for example, you are out on your Mountain bike, park it up somewhere and take the pump with you so it doesn't get nicked, are accosted aggressively and use the pump after the manner of a dokko or nyoi you will be prosecuted for carrying/using an offensive weapon. It's justification will be taken on it's own merits. If however you take out the working parts, fill it with concrete to make it heavier and carry it because it looks innocuous, and you get caught it's soap on a rope time:).

As a caution, choose you improvised envioromental weapon wisely http://www.break.com/index/chooseweapons.html
Enjoy:)
Paul

[dirk.bruere]

Hi Cheung,
I wasn't suggesting that if, for example, you are out on your Mountain bike, park it up somewhere and take the pump with you so it doesn't get nicked, are accosted aggressively and use the pump after the manner of a dokko or nyoi you will be prosecuted for carrying/using an offensive weapon. It's justification will be taken on it's own merits. If however you take out the working parts, fill it with concrete to make it heavier and carry it because it looks innocuous, and you get caught it's soap on a rope time:).

As a caution, choose you improvised envioromental weapon wisely http://www.break.com/index/chooseweapons.html
Enjoy:)
Paul

I think a lot of us old-times have accumulated enough certified injuries that a good heavy walking stick can be justified. For example, my medical history includes a partially ruptured achilles tendon and a lower back injury. Maybe something with a big metal knob on a very dense wood stick? Any suggestions - because I'm seriously looking for something (and not for use as a weapon, I hasten to add).

Dirk

[sean dixie]

Shall we give him (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/376029/gettin_stabby_with_live_blades_hwa_rang_do/) a magic marker/ tanto with red chalk powder?

[sean dixie]

Something else (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/266722/brutal_knife_attack/) Don't you just love the fact that thay won't pay him for time off?

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Shall we give him (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/376029/gettin_stabby_with_live_blades_hwa_rang_do/) a magic marker/ tanto with red chalk powder?
This guy could kill you with the magic marker. :)
But actually I am not worried about persons like this attacking me on the street or in my home. Maybe I am an optimist.
I also have a gun at home and a pitbull.... :p

[dirk.bruere]

I also have a gun at home and a pitbull.... :p

The gun is to shoot the pitbull and the pitbull is to stop someone stealing the gun.

Dirk

[tony leith]

Re. the foregoing – I think Adrian’s relayed contribution was pretty illuminating, having as it did the inestimable advantage of actual experience behind it. I’ve been wrestling with this in my own teaching. I wouldn’t want to run a ‘fight club’, but I think our training should make some effort to recognise how random and unpredictable real world violence can be. There’s a huge difference in training to fight somebody who has a reasonable concern for their own survival (which is what we do all the time in randori), and somebody who just doesn’t give a ****, and just wants to hurt you regardless of the consequences for themselves. Unfortunately, there is a tension between realism and safety..

All of us posting here would I think regard the prospect of harming another human being with some horror, even if it was necessary. For some people, it’s basically a hobby.

Perhaps I as an SK instructor should just put my hands up and say, look we’re practicing an unarmed combat system which might actually not avail you very much in a whole range of perfectly conceivable self defence situations. In the context of the purity of the art, this is probably quite legitimate. However, people do come to us for self defence skills, and not at least giving some thought to dealing with life threatening scenarios would be remiss.




Paul Browne

Incidently regarding the situation mentioned by Tony where he thought the Police officers could have shot a man in the leg there is an interesting problem here (Beyond the fact that hitting a limb is very hard).

I should point out that when I say surrounded, I mean by SWAT team members, armed to the teeth, in full body armour standing within 8-10 feet of the man with the blade, not sniping at him from half a mile away. On the other hand, I don't really blame those officers for wanting to make sure they went home to their wives and families. I just think they could have tried the leg first - there would have been another 10 men ready to take the headshot if needs be.

and:-

I don't think we should give this topic too much emphasis as it's really easy to go overboard with it. (though how much may depend on locallity , a dojo in Shangri-La can ignore it completely, Tony lives in the knife murder capital of Western Europe......but if he gets injured his prescriptions are free)

Too late! Like I said, this seems to be a bit of a 'hot button' topic.

I should also point out in defence of Glasgow that the only place I have personally seen a knife on its streets was in the aforementioned shop windows (like I said, a bizarre emporium which sells 2nd hand musical instruments on one side of the entrance door, and assorted lethal weaponry on the other - what I want to know is whether it started out as a music shop and then turned to the dark side, or vice versa?)

Tony Leith

[paul browne]

Hi Tony,
I hope you don't think I was casting aspersions (spelling?) against Glasgow (which I have visited twice and enjoyed), it was just my attempt at indicating how kenshi's needs may differ:).

Regarding the cops, I think the legal problem would be the main one for them That's what the Taser and bean bag rounds are now for (which is why I feel a bit irritated by Amnesty's knee jerk objections)

I didn't so much mean on the forum when I said giving it too much emphasis as in the dojo.
Regards
paul

[sean dixie]

What I find interesting with Ronnies original post is the idea that knife crime is seemingly on the rise in a country that I thought (my ignorance) was almost the shangri la that Paul mentioned. Is knife crime on the up everywhere? Any other none British peeps want to respond? Our media is constantly trying to convince us that we are living in the cess pit of Europe. Longer work hours, break-up of the family unit, binge drinking, fighting, peodophilia everywhere....etc. I'm just not convinced it's particually worse here than anywhere else.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Sean, there was a movie on Channel 4 (last year I think) which was a harrowing/shocking/blunt trauma depiction of Maori Gang violence (modern gangs, biker fashion, face tattoos... but not sticking out their tongues at each other , more like machetes and shotguns). It matched anything from the slums of Rio or the darkest alleys of Hong Kong.

Quite how that cinematic depiction fared as an accurate portrayal of Modern New Zealand is unknown to me. As an attempt to show the kind of "reality" of violence, it was very impressive. Blunt. Brutal. Senseless. Cunning. Totally committed attacks that didn't stop for someone to admire the beauty of the kick or the dainty footwork. It was uncomfortable to watch and you felt like you'd accidentally wandered into the wrong side of town.

A bit like this whole thread really.
Real violence is nasty. It isn't beautiful and it certainly will hurt. Any attempt to find the Art, or the pleasure from perfecting a move... is always at risk of straying far away from the pain and suffering of true self-defence. There is another thread there...

[paul browne]

Gassho




Real violence is nasty. It isn't beautiful and it certainly will hurt. Any attempt to find the Art, or the pleasure from perfecting a move... is always at risk of straying far away from the pain and suffering of true self-defence.

and the strength and beauty of Shorinji Kempo is there is room to practice for both :)

Paul
Kesshu

[tony leith]

What I find interesting with Ronnies original post is the idea that knife crime is seemingly on the rise in a country that I thought (my ignorance) was almost the shangri la that Paul mentioned. Is knife crime on the up everywhere? Any other none British peeps want to respond? Our media is constantly trying to convince us that we are living in the cess pit of Europe. Longer work hours, break-up of the family unit, binge drinking, fighting, peodophilia everywhere....etc. I'm just not convinced it's particually worse here than anywhere else.

I'm not convinced that the past was much better - certainly in Glasgow, street violence thirty forty years ago by all accounts was much more prevalent than it is now. As to the media, well, representing even marginal deteriorations in crime stats as the End of the World As We Know It shifts more papers than actually enquiring into causes.

My tuppenceworth is however that there has been an endemic rise in a culture of radical irresponsibility in Western society. Saying that social causes of behaviour may exist does NOT abrogate individual responsibility. I suspect we have to look to the way large proportions of the population are being socialised. Human infants start out being pretty monstrously egoistic (they're only cute because you're programmed to think they are), and basically have to be dissuaded through systematic conditioning.

In my case, I was subjected to a pretty old fashioned Scottish upbringing, where I was left in no doubt that the universe does not revolve around me and my preferences. If I stepped over the line, sometimes this awareness was enforced. I didn't find this enjoyable, but you know, I can't drop litter because I have a mental image of my mum's hand tracking towards the back of my head. You might think it completely unacceptable to do that to a child , but I basically never drop litter. Net benefit to society versus my discomfort -considerable.

There are I think pretty profound secular trends which have reinforced these tendencies. Our societies have become much more atomised and competitive. The wider social networks - familial and otherwise - which reinforced responsibility have been largely eroded. Consumerism is completely rampant - and what does that do but promote the fundemental idea that anything you want should be available to you just because you want it? We have a mass culture so bankrupt that becoming 'famous' is the closest thing to apotheosis we have left, and again, the media is actively complicit in this (and then affects to be surprised at the consequences).

I once heard Aosaka Sensei give a howa talk where he said that the problem with Western society was that we didn't feel 'shame'. At the time, I thought this was a bit Calvinist for my taste, but - maybe I'm just getting old - I see his point. Adam Smith talked about this in his theory of moral sentiments; humans behave the way that they do - as social beings - partially because they want approval, partially because they want to avoid obloquy. In our society I'm not sure that the latter force is really operative any more. For that, you need active membership of a moral community.

Tony Leith

[paul browne]

Gassho,
Linked to this topic .
http://www.comegetyousome.com/videos.php?Page=0&search=knife&cat=Search&Sort_By=Newest
Here is a link to a number of CCTV clips of real (and horrible) knife assaults. As far as the self defence clips go make your own judgements.
The site is not particularly tasteful (i found it by chance from a link on another forum I visit) and in might be best to delete it after a day or so (Anders or Steve, if you think it appropriate please do this.) but it is a resource that could form the basis of beginning something approaching realistic edged weapons defence. I haven't viewed all of the clips but one of them was a tragic murder that received extensive news coverage (with the clip) earlier this year.
Paul
Kesshu

[Ronnie Smart]

Sean, there was a movie on Channel 4 (last year I think) which was a harrowing/shocking/blunt trauma depiction of Maori Gang violence (modern gangs, biker fashion, face tattoos... but not sticking out their tongues at each other , more like machetes and shotguns). It matched anything from the slums of Rio or the darkest alleys of Hong Kong.

Quite how that cinematic depiction fared as an accurate portrayal of Modern New Zealand is unknown to me. As an attempt to show the kind of "reality" of violence, it was very impressive. Blunt. Brutal. Senseless. Cunning. Totally committed attacks that didn't stop for someone to admire the beauty of the kick or the dainty footwork. It was uncomfortable to watch and you felt like you'd accidentally wandered into the wrong side of town.

A bit like this whole thread really.
Real violence is nasty. It isn't beautiful and it certainly will hurt. Any attempt to find the Art, or the pleasure from perfecting a move... is always at risk of straying far away from the pain and suffering of true self-defence. There is another thread there...

I'm not sure about this documentary, as I haven't seen it. But I believe some areas of New Zealand, particularly in the North Island, may be a bit rough. I think New Zealand is generally safe, but like any place, it's good to check with the locals, before you go to a place known for trouble, or a gang pub and someone starts throwing glasses/chairs at you. ;)

In any case, now body armour is worn by all police officers on duty here (they didn't use to wear it all the time), and it seems that it is primarily protection against stabbing attacks to the body. Shootings do occur, but weapon attacks are more frequent, I think.

The media certainly over-emphasise crime here, and I don't want to get paranoid (even if everyone is out to get me ;)) , but weapon attacks are a potential reality in a self-defence situation here, more so than in the past.

Gassho

[Tripitaka of AA]

Sorry Ronnie, not a documentary, a work of (hopefully) fiction. I'm embarassed to admit that I don't remember the title, or the lead actors... even though I've had 24 hours to bang my head against a wall trying. Somehow, that wall thing doesn't seem to work like it used to...

Made, I guess, sometime after 1990, it had NZ actors. Main charactor was a very solid-looking bloke who had moved on from his violent past (but was capable of turning it on at the drop of a hat), but got drawn back when his kid brother got himself involved with a gang. The older brother was shown near the start of the movie in a Bar, singing along to a folk guitar. Someone across the room gave him a look. He went across the bar, smashed a table over the guy's head (or a bottle, or a pool cue, or some other solid object), kicked him into the floor, then resumed his singing while the bartender went for the mop. At the depressing finale, when his efforts to reform had been shattered by events beyond his control, he went after the gang boss with a hammer...

[Ronnie Smart]

Oh, that sounds like the classic movie: "Once Were Warriors", or maybe the sequel "What becomes of the broken hearted?". Written by Alan Duff, it is representative of a small section of the New Zealand community and their lives. The sequel is a more positive film on the whole, about the redemption of the main character and him coming to terms with his own violence, but if you didn't see how scary the character was in the first movie, maybe you wouldn't see how much the character had developed in the second. "Once were warriors" is a classic New Zealand movie, a shocking picture of violence, alcohol and domestic abuse, but this sort of thing is still a problem in some parts of the country. It was a big eye-opener at the time.

Oh, the main actor in the movie is called Temuera Morrison.

See ya :)

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thanks Ronnie, yes, it was "What becomes of the broken hearted? (http://imdb.com/title/tt0197094/)" which I've just read up on in the IMDb. Seems like I need to see the Original movie now...

[Tripitaka of AA]

Now... back to knives!

[JL.]

Gassho!


Is knife crime on the up everywhere? Any other none British peeps want to respond? Our media is constantly trying to convince us that we are living in the cess pit of Europe. Longer work hours, break-up of the family unit, binge drinking, fighting, peodophilia everywhere....etc. I'm just not convinced it's particually worse here than anywhere else.I've found some information for Germany here (http://www.bka.de/pks/). Unfortunately it doesn't break down to what kind of attacks there were. The statistics for "Mord und Totschlag" (murder and manslaughter) and "gefährliche Körperverletzung" (assault with a weapon) in the latest file (2006, see the index ("Inhaltsverzeichnis") or just search for those catchwords), though show a rise by approximately 100% (~ 75k to 150k) in the comparable period of 1993-2006 for the latter and a drop by approximately 50% (~ 15k to 7.5k) for the further. Which could be said to mean that the level of violent crimes did not change considerably in the last years. Combined with clear-up rates between 80 and 105% (not joking here, sometimes they clear up more murders in a year than were commited, meaning some old ones, too) I'd say this is overall not so bad, certainly not dramatic.
Also with regards to the UK Ade-sensei told us from his personal professional experience that the general mood of the culprits seems to have changed: more heavy drinking, less inhibition for violence and less willingness to accept one's own guilt and responsibility afterwards, IIRC.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Leelanau]

Ooooo, there are too many good points here so far.

I can brag to say I had an embu where we practiced with a real, sharp cooking knife, though it was replaced with a fake one for the embu. Of course, I am no knife expert by any means, nor have I done any extensive practice to defend specifically from them.

But I still have the delusion that I could probably avoid being stabbed by the local thugs. Firstly, I walk like a butch, confident man. Even if the target (me) is a woman, I am not exactly the obvious target- people who seem fairly unconfident, lost, or weak are natural victims. It's not something that would be directly taught in Shorinji Kempo, but it is a side effect.

Regardless, I'm not statistically invulnerable... but how often will a mugger be even moderately skilled with a knife? My sensei shared with us a bit of Japanese thugging culture- apparently it was common to hold the knife butt in their stomach, and run directly at people to get a deep stab wound. As silly as that sounds to us, it reinforces the importance of stepwork, even over blocking. Since a knife is not as long as a sword, stepping out of range is quite doable, even if they were to totally extend their arm. From there you'd have to get them off guard, which isn't particularly hard if they put all their effort into a stomach jab.

I think the big assumption of the usual mugger is that their target will freeze up in panic. It's a lot easier to get a clear, simple strike if they don't react.

(Though a gang of knife fighters sounds very, very dangerous.)

[sean dixie]

I can brag to say I had an embu where we practiced with a real, sharp cooking knife, though it was replaced with a fake one for the embu.

Oh dear, a dangerous game that. I can see the flames coming....

[paul browne]

Gassho
[QUOTE=Leelanau]

My sensei shared with us a bit of Japanese thugging culture- apparently it was common to hold the knife butt in their stomach, and run directly at people to get a deep stab wound. /QUOTE]

This method was demonstrated by Mori sensei as being very hard to stop if the attacker is committed. He also used the lead hand to strike/drive away your defending arms (think Shuto giri gyakuzuki). It isn't uniquely Japanese, I've seen a British Homegaurd manual that shows it as well, catching the clothing or head and pulling you onto the blade (didn't show that in Dad's Army!! except they don't like it up 'em). Try defending against it in training, it's hard.
Whilst you are unlikely to face a trained attacker the frightening thing is they don't need to be trained, just committed.

IMHO training against a live blade (dulled metal blades are a different matter)is at best counterproductive, the attacker will never attack realistically for fear of injuring you, and at worst madness, you are risking maiming or death without any real benefit.

Finally the types of technique (attacker or defender) you will use in an Embu are not the type that you are likely to face or use in self defence.

Again this is only my opinion, I have no greater 'live' experience of facing an aggressor with a knife than most others on this forum and will be very happy to keep it that way. My opinions are however based on exposure to formal training (from other 'experts' who don't have any hard and fast answers either), a little informal research, and some rough experimentation.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[cheunglo]

I think the big assumption of the usual mugger is that their target will freeze up in panic. It's a lot easier to get a clear, simple strike if they don't react.
I would like to start, as Paul did, by saying that I am not an expert against a knife. I also won't say the following to non Shorinji Kempo kenshi as it may come across as professorial.

Natural human reaction, reinforced by millenia of evolution, when faced with a violent situation is fight, flight or freeze. When the violent situation is unexpected, the most common reaction is freeze. This is natures' equivalent of the play dead strategy, a perfectly good strategy under some conditions.

Unless you have faced unexpected violent encounters and know that the freeze reaction does NOT affect you, you shouldn't assume that you are immune to it. This is not just directed at you, it is the same for everyone, me included.



But I still have the delusion that I could probably avoid being stabbed by the local thugs. Firstly, I walk like a butch, confident man. Even if the target (me) is a woman, I am not exactly the obvious target- people who seem fairly unconfident, lost, or weak are natural victims. It's not something that would be directly taught in Shorinji Kempo, but it is a side effect.
Not seeming to be a victim is a very good starting point - probably more useful than any taught technique.



Regardless, I'm not statistically invulnerable... but how often will a mugger be even moderately skilled with a knife? My sensei shared with us a bit of Japanese thugging culture- apparently it was common to hold the knife butt in their stomach, and run directly at people to get a deep stab wound. As silly as that sounds to us, it reinforces the importance of stepwork, even over blocking. Since a knife is not as long as a sword, stepping out of range is quite doable, even if they were to totally extend their arm. From there you'd have to get them off guard, which isn't particularly hard if they put all their effort into a stomach jab.
Paul beat me to this, you don't have to be skilled with a knife, just committed. I've said this before and I will say it again (waiting for someone to challenge me). The 3 greatest advantages that an attacker can have, in order, are:
- Intent (one side does not know there is conflict)
- Surprise (one side is not aware that an encounter is about to happen)
- Commitment (one side prefers to surrender than get hurt)

Nowhere in that list is any physical or technical attribute.

[tony leith]

Paul


IMHO training against a live blade (dulled metal blades are a different matter)is at best counterproductive, the attacker will never attack realistically for fear of injuring you, and at worst madness, you are risking maiming or death without any real benefit.

Absolutely goddam right. Simple matter of cost benefit analysis. Risk may be an inescapable element of training in a martial art, but risk of being killed is something else.


Finally the types of technique (attacker or defender) you will use in an Embu are not the type that you are likely to face or use in self defence.

Also true - sneaking up on somebody from behind and chibbing them might be realistic, but it wouldn't be very interesting to watch.

I doubt that many of us would feel 'confident' about defending ourselves against edged weapons, but as I've already opined, we all could face circumstances where we're not given much choice.

One thing that may be counterintuitive vis a vis our normal appoach in training and weapons attacks is just how decisive you have to be in terms of taking back the initiative. If - big if - you've survived the initial attack, and unless you've got a clear avenue of escape, then you have to take the attacker out, no ifs, buts, or maybes. Not doing so, gives them another chance to kill you - and frankly you'll be lucky to survive one such opportunity.

Because we typically train with some consideration for our partners, this may not be something that comes naturally to kenshi. There are things that you can do in routine training which well help - spontaneous ren hen ko pressed home to targets, automatic delivery of good finishing atemi in juho (get dos on and for gods sake, don't air kick). Nevertheless, we don't encourage people to be ruthless - and for good reason - but this is probably a prerequisite for surviving an attack which is intended to kill (NB there is a difference between ruthlessness in terms of say, pulverising a knee joint if you get the chance, and say jumping up and down on their head afterwards - the former might be justified to ensure your survival, the latter clearly wouldn't)

Tony Leith

[dirk.bruere]

Not seeming to be a victim is a very good starting point - probably more useful than any taught technique.


And I should add, not seeming to be a threat.
A few years ago this guy walked into my dojo and the second I laid eyes on him I thought "trouble - I'm going to have to punch him out". Turns out he was looking to learn self defence because people were always attacking him, seemingly for no reason. His body language was all screwed up and he radiated "hostile" even though he was quite harmless.

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

Gassho

IMHO training against a live blade (dulled metal blades are a different matter)is at best counterproductive, the attacker will never attack realistically for fear of injuring you, and at worst madness, you are risking maiming or death without any real benefit.


Training *against* a live blade, I agree.
Training, or more accuralety playing, with a live blade is very useful.
I've found lots of people have a very exaggerated fear of blades, which is something I lack simply because as kids we all played with sharp knives. This included playing games like "splits" (if any of you remember what that was). Of course, we occasionally got cut, esp when seeing how many times we could flip it in the air and still catch it by the handle! And I still get the occasional cut (and scar) - last time from carelessly cleaning a katana. But if you are serious about defending against knives you should be very familiar with messing about with them as well.

Dirk

[tony leith]

I've found lots of people have a very exaggerated fear of blades, which is something I lack simply because as kids we all played with sharp knives. This included playing games like "splits" (if any of you remember what that was). Of course, we occasionally got cut, esp when seeing how many times we could flip it in the air and still catch it by the handle! And I still get the occasional cut (and scar) - last time from carelessly cleaning a katana. But if you are serious about defending against knives you should be very familiar with messing about with them as well.

Erm, maybe. Perhaps I just had very sheltered childhood - though I don't think so, I remember using aerosols as flamethrowers and once prety much improvising a pipe bomb by sticking a stone in the muzzle of a bird scaring device called a crow banger - but I don't remember so much of the playing with sharp knives. There are any number of things I did when I was young and stupid (viz using aerosols as flame throwers) which I wouldn't do now.

I would dispute incidentally that I have an exagerrated 'fear of knives', just am justifiably apprehensive about having one stuck in me with hostile intent. This is a bit like the 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' argument - personally I'm pretty relaxed about guns per se, it's the bullets in motion that worry me more.

Tony Leith

[dirk.bruere]

I would dispute incidentally that I have an exagerrated 'fear of knives', just am justifiably apprehensive about having one stuck in me with hostile intent. This is a bit like the 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' argument - personally I'm pretty relaxed about guns per se, it's the bullets in motion that worry me more.

Tony Leith

I would say that people who will not consider taking a knife if/when they investigate burglar type noises in the night because "the burglar might take it off me and use it against me" are showing an unrealistic appreciation of the situation. Or are totally incompetent to a ludicrous degree (which is quite likely). I have even heard that from someone concerning a handgun. I have also met quite a few people who don't even want to touch a "razor sharp rambo style knife" because it is "so dangerous" - a few even in the context of the dojo.
And returning to the context of youth, most of us kids used to carry sheath knives some of the time when playing out of school (in the country). And I used to carry a locknife with a 4" blade to secondary school. The only comment I ever got from a teacher was "could I borrow that for a few seconds". I also took explosives and napalm to school as well and impressed the teachers! Now it would expulsion, armed police and terrorism charges.

Dirk

[JL.]

Gassho!


I would say that people who will not consider taking a knife if/when they investigate burglar type noises in the night because "the burglar might take it off me and use it against me" are showing an unrealistic appreciation of the situation. Or are totally incompetent to a ludicrous degree (which is quite likely). I have even heard that from someone concerning a handgun. I've read that being shot with their own gun is one of the two most likely death causes in a burglar incident. The other is shooting their own loved ones (who got up to drink some milk, or whatever – not a real burglar incident, obviously) because they're scared from noises they make and aren't very skilled in handling the gun.

Incidentally, the rest of Your post sounds like Your attitude towards weapons might not quite be called average. ;)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[dirk.bruere]

Gassho!
Incidentally, the rest of Your post sounds like Your attitude towards weapons might not quite be called average. ;)


Not average for these times, no. But probably average for the era in which I grew up, which was immediately postwar and before the explosion of crime and terrorism in the 1970s. It was a time of extraordinary personal freedom that I doubt we will ever see again. For example, I could walk into the local pharmacy and they would sell a teenage boy nitrates, sulphuric acid etc

A strange mix of personal responsibility, safety and violence. I was talking about this last night to some friends. While children killing children was incredibly rare (unlike now) the level of playground violence was quite high. While still at primary school I probably had to take off a week or more in total because of injuries sustained in fights. Strangely, parents never got involved, or if they did it was to the extent of "did you win?". It meant that we learned to sort things out without relying on adults for arbitration. I suspect that much of the problem with the serious violence now is that children are not left to sort things out, and don't learn how to because there is always an authority figure to do it for them. The end result being that for many in later years, when that authority figure is missing, the violence becomes lethal because of lessons not learned.

Are Japanese school children nannied like ours are nowadays, or are they left to sort things out amongst themselves?

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

Gassho!

I've read that being shot with their own gun is one of the two most likely death causes in a burglar incident. The other is shooting their own loved ones (who got up to drink some milk, or whatever – not a real burglar incident, obviously) because they're scared from noises they make and aren't very skilled in handling the gun.


True as well of policemen in the US I believe. Many (most?) are shot with their own gun. Given the choice, however, I'll risk having a gun in my hand:-)

Dirk

[tony leith]

And returning to the context of youth, most of us kids used to carry sheath knives some of the time when playing out of school (in the country). And I used to carry a locknife with a 4" blade to secondary school. The only comment I ever got from a teacher was "could I borrow that for a few seconds".

Er, I'm going to have to go along with Jan. I too was a country boy, and again while I did a large number of things which could fairly be called dangerous, I never at any point routinely carried a sheath knife, and I don't remember any of my friends doing so either.

My dad was a gamekeeper, which has resulted in my having a fairly pragmatic attitude towards firearms. In some contexts, useful tools. In others less so.


True as well of policemen in the US I believe. Many (most?) are shot with their own gun. Given the choice, however, I'll risk having a gun in my hand:-)

And other things remaining equal, the statistics re. prevalence versus use of firearms seem pretty conclusive. The fact that there are presumably much higher numbers of armed civilians as well as a universally armed police force doesn't seem to stop gun toting sociopaths massacring their fellow citizens in the US on a fairly regular basis.


A strange mix of personal responsibility, safety and violence. I was talking about this last night to some friends. While children killing children was incredibly rare (unlike now) the level of playground violence was quite high. While still at primary school I probably had to take off a week or more in total because of injuries sustained in fights. Strangely, parents never got involved, or if they did it was to the extent of "did you win?". It meant that we learned to sort things out without relying on adults for arbitration. I suspect that much of the problem with the serious violence now is that children are not left to sort things out, and don't learn how to because there is always an authority figure to do it for them. The end result being that for many in later years, when that authority figure is missing, the violence becomes lethal because of lessons not learned.

Interesting argument. Unfortunately I suspect the actual problem is more likely to be a failure of the socialisation process earlier in childhood i.e the failure of parents to actually function as authority figures in any meaningful sense of the term. The ideas of one's actions having consequences, be they positive or negative, is something which I think has to be learned quite early on, and really is only going to be learned from one's environment. There seem to be good reasons for thinking that there is a biological predisposition towards ethical behaviour to som extent in human beings - we are after all social animals - but this has to be actually enabled/enforced by the social context.


I would say that people who will not consider taking a knife if/when they investigate burglar type noises in the night because "the burglar might take it off me and use it against me" are showing an unrealistic appreciation of the situation. Or are totally incompetent to a ludicrous degree (which is quite likely). I have even heard that from someone concerning a handgun. I have also met quite a few people who don't even want to touch a "razor sharp rambo style knife" because it is "so dangerous" - a few even in the context of the dojo.

I would say they're actually manifesting an understandable caution. If you're not psychologically prepared to use deadly force against somebody, then it isn't that unlikely that your intended 'victim' might end up in possession of your weapon. Again, I wouldn't call a reluctance to handle weapons the worst of character flaws - I knew somebody when I started training who used to carry round coins in a sock after being mugged. Everybody who knew him estimated the likelihood of him actually using this cosh on anybody as prety nearly zero. I have never wanted to carry a weapon because I would reckon the probability in my own case of being - ahem - significantly higher than zero. Once you have everybody carrying round weapons to ensure their own safety, do you in fact have a safer society? Arguments can be constructed either way, but I seriously doubt it.

Tony Leith

[PeterL]

Dirk

I suspect you are having us on a bit with a few of your comments ( like napalm at school ) being taken out of context. But two I will take on.

First the Knife for a burglar:



I would say that people who will not consider taking a knife if/when they investigate burglar type noises in the night because "the burglar might take it off me and use it against me" are showing an unrealistic appreciation of the situation. Or are totally incompetent to a ludicrous degree (which is quite likely). I have even heard that from someone concerning a handgun.
Dirk

I would say that NOT taking a knife is the logical thing to do for MOST people. I think the burglar taking it away from them is probably quite likely. because if pull a knife, you have damn well be sure that you are willing to kill someone. It is that simple, other wise you are going to end posturing and quite likely getting that knife shoved up your stupid ass (figuratively speaking) .

But the fact of the matter is MOST people are not prepared to do that and end up with a weapon in their hand that they have no inclination to actually use and little or no ability. As you say yourself, "Or are totally incompetent to a ludicrous degree (which is quite likely)." I think we both agree on that. So what is the logical course of action?

I think that for most people it would be and should be forgoing the knife.

Incidently, about a year ago my wife woke me up upon hearing a sound and I went out to investigate... kitchen was right on the way... I will leave the rest of the story to your imagination :)



Are Japanese school children nannied like ours are nowadays, or are they left to sort things out amongst themselves?
Dirk

What do you mean by nannied? I think you have a nostalgic memory of the "good, old days" when kids sorted things out themselves (think William Golding). You act and talk like you are a tough guy, so I will assume you are and were. This would mean that a self sorting system would work well for you. One of the worst memories I have of junior high school is bullying - when kids sorted it out themselves. I was not bullied, but I did partake in some bulling. It was and still is a terrible thing.

In modern society, however, it is worse- the level of violence is higher, the level of sophistication of these so called kids is much higher. Bullying is a huge problem in Japan both among males and females. It has led to MANY suicides. So I suppose, Japan is moving towards nannying the kids, if that is what you mean.

[Ewok]

I'm still thinking about how to answer the question - from Elementary school right through to University the kids are pretty much guided along a narrow path.

A big part of the problem with bullying is because of the culture here. Kids are told from a very young age to just gaman-suru (grin and bear it), and when things get tough you just ganbaru (work harder). Teachers just see it as kids being kids (shouganai), and many see it as something that is good for the kids - it builds personality or some other related BS.

My professor in Australia wrote a book in the late 90's about bullying in Japan and it was a fairly shocking read - examples of bullying to the extreme with kids commiting suicide from the strain of things, or killing other students, even some cases of teachers pushing kids to the point where they have died (two I remember being one case where a teacher locked a student in a shipping container-like box and they died of dehydration, another where the teacher literally ran the kid to death). Its only now that bullying is starting to be brought out to the surface and there's a drama on TV about bullying that hasn't been holding back.

Shorinji Kempo sums up why this stuff happens - 自身　勇気　行動力 - most people do not have the confidence, courage or will to step up and say no, or even speak out about their own problems.

(While writing this I came across http://www.kumagera.ne.jp/shorinji/houwa/houwa-11.html - Howa as written by Oodate-sannomaru-doincho - interesting read, but in Japanese)

[Ronnie Smart]

I would say that NOT taking a knife is the logical thing to do for MOST people. I think the burglar taking it away from them is probably quite likely. because if pull a knife, you have damn well be sure that you are willing to kill someone. It is that simple, other wise you are going to end posturing and quite likely getting that knife shoved up your stupid ass (figuratively speaking) .

But the fact of the matter is MOST people are not prepared to do that and end up with a weapon in their hand that they have no inclination to actually use and little or no ability. As you say yourself, "Or are totally incompetent to a ludicrous degree (which is quite likely)." I think we both agree on that. So what is the logical course of action?

I think that for most people it would be and should be forgoing the knife.



I agree.
I think that also might be why Buddhist martial arts don't customarily train in edged weapons, but blunt ones. If you use a knife, its very easy to puncture organs or cut important arteries, as we have seen. You can use a stick, chair, a clubbing weapon, and there is a lot less chance of killing the other person.You have more options: hitting limbs, legs, even the head. Clubbing weapons are reasonably easy to get a hold of too, without having to get to the kitchen. (another argument for more dokko, shakujo training perhaps? ;) )

But again, if the other person has a knife and you have another weapon, you have to be committed to do what it takes to stop them from being a threat (Within reason, as Tony just stated).

It is also not self-defence if you also have a knife, I think.

Regarding bullying, students bullying other students and even students bullying teachers is a growing problem in many high schools here in New Zealand. I've heard that bullying by text messages has driven students to commit suicide even here in NZ.

Ronnie

[Kari MakiKuutti]

I've read that being shot with their own gun is one of the two most likely death causes in a burglar incident.Jan. I bet that most of these cases are because of keeping guns where they are easy for strangers to find and use.
Not so many where loaded guns were taken from their (hostile) owners' hand!
Shooting your family by accident is tragic but would be more like Darwin Awards material.

[JL.]

Gassho!


I bet that most of these cases are because of keeping guns where they are easy for strangers to find and use.
Not so many where loaded guns were taken from their (hostile) owners' hand!From what I've read it's the other way round: someone hears an intruder; gets out their gun; isn't ready, willing or able to use it (see posts above); the intruder takes the gun literally from their hands; and, if they're unlucky, shoots them with it.



Shooting your family by accident is tragic but would be more like Darwin Awards material.I don't think so, because the people who die this way might in fact be quite smart/strong etc. It's not exactly their fault, is it?



I agree.
I think that also might be why Buddhist martial arts don't customarily train in edged weapons, but blunt ones. […] (another argument for more dokko, shakujo training perhaps? ;) )Actually, I consider the Shakujo to be an edged weapon. The Bo isn't, though.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

From what I've read it's the other way round: someone hears an intruder; gets out their gun; isn't ready, willing or able to use it (see posts above); the intruder takes the gun literally from their hands; and, if they're unlucky, shoots them with it.Jan.Could be. But you are not very hostile if you let them take your gun?

I don't think so, because the people who die this way might in fact be quite smart/strong etc. It's not exactly their fault, is itMaybe this is in bad taste but Darwin Awards ( http://www.darwinawards.com/) are for particularly stupid ways to stop your genes from spreading. Like killing you family by accidentally shooting them?

[JL.]

Gassho!

Just saw in a report that the number of assaults with knives in Switzerland has doubled during the last five years, along with a general rise in the number and seriousness of violent crimes.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Kaenzig]

Yes, it really becomes quite a problem here in Switzerland. Right-wing parties blame it all on foreignors but they are idiots, I think it is a much deeper problem.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Yes, it really becomes quite a problem here in Switzerland. Right-wing parties blame it all on foreignors but they are idiots, I think it is a much deeper problem.Foreigners or right wing parties?

[dirk.bruere]

Er, I'm going to have to go along with Jan. I too was a country boy, and again while I did a large number of things which could fairly be called dangerous, I never at any point routinely carried a sheath knife, and I don't remember any of my friends doing so either.



Sheath knives were sold in the local shop as toys. Totally crap and wouldn't hold a good edge, but 7" blade none the less. And I wasn't joking about the napalm. Can you imagine a garage owner these days filling a milk bottle with petrol for a 14 year old boy? This would be mid-1960s

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

If you're not psychologically prepared to use deadly force against somebody, then it isn't that unlikely that your intended 'victim' might end up in possession of your weapon. Again, I wouldn't call a reluctance to handle weapons the worst of character flaws - I knew somebody when I started training who used to carry round coins in a sock after being mugged. Everybody who knew him estimated the likelihood of him actually using this cosh on anybody as prety nearly zero.

I generally advise people that if they are going to investigate a possible burglar and carrying a knife they do two things. The first is hide the blade, and the second is never to threaten to use it - just use it instantly if attacked.



I have never wanted to carry a weapon because I would reckon the probability in my own case of being - ahem - significantly higher than zero. Once you have everybody carrying round weapons to ensure their own safety, do you in fact have a safer society? Arguments can be constructed either way, but I seriously doubt it.
Tony Leith

I would add a caveat to that, namely that society would be better if householders were allowed to use weapons and lethal force *in their own homes* against intruders. In my opinion the law is too heavily weighted in favour of the criminal in these circumstances. I even knew a guy who was sued by a burglar because as he was breaking to their premises he fell through the roof and injured himself.

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

What do you mean by nannied? I think you have a nostalgic memory of the "good, old days" when kids sorted things out themselves (think William Golding). You act and talk like you are a tough guy, so I will assume you are and were. This would mean that a self sorting system would work well for you. One of the worst memories I have of junior high school is bullying - when kids sorted it out themselves. I was not bullied, but I did partake in some bulling. It was and still is a terrible thing.

My memories of (junior) school are far from nostalgic. In fact they are quite horrific. I was one of those kids who did not want to fight and also did not want to fit into the "pecking order". Couple that with actually believing what my mother claimed ie "violence never solves anything" and I had a really bad time. At 11 I changed school and the same pattern started up again. I just got so angry that I hit first and threw the perp over a desk. It was like a lightbulb going off in my head - it was "inadequate violence never solves anything". From that point on nobody picked on me ever again.



In modern society, however, it is worse- the level of violence is higher, the level of sophistication of these so called kids is much higher. Bullying is a huge problem in Japan both among males and females. It has led to MANY suicides. So I suppose, Japan is moving towards nannying the kids, if that is what you mean.

I wonder whether there is a correlation between having such a peaceful society and that kind of miserable childhood?

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

Yes, it really becomes quite a problem here in Switzerland. Right-wing parties blame it all on foreignors but they are idiots, I think it is a much deeper problem.

So what do the statistics say about the origin of the criminals? The Rightwing claim should be easy to disprove.

Dirk

[Kaenzig]

Foreigners or right wing parties?
right-wing parties of course.


So what do the statistics say about the origin of the criminals? The Rightwing claim should be easy to disprove.

One statistic I know about is that out of ca. 640 youth-violence cases, about 600 are committed by swiss and the rest by foreignors.

I think one of the problems is that it has become some kind of trend to carry weapons and use them in fights instead of fighting unarmed.

[paul browne]

Gassho,
I was going to leave this topic alone, (as in unarmed defence against knives, not the bolt-on's), as I think all the useful discussion has been had. However the recent discussion has shifted (worryingly) to the use of a knife in defence within your home, and not as a spontaneous response but as a preplanned strategy. I am going to post, beneath this one, information supplied by Adrian Starr sensei having read those posts. Just for clarity the laws discussed are formally taught to him (so he can enforce them) and formally taught to me (I have to work within them) however they apply to each and every one of us (in the UK that is, the rest of you will have to do your own research).
That is not to say that you cannot take an appropriate defensive measure if you are at home when an intruder enters, but a knife/sword/gun has no measured response, it is designed to be lethal and is likely to be so. Whether you believe you should automatically have the right to lethal force is irrelevant. You may not care about the law at the time ("rather be judged by twelve than carried by six") you sure as hell will if your convicted and gaoled.
It is foolish to make a preparation, if you feel such is neccesary, that gives you an option of death or prison when proper measured planning could allow you to survive (perhaps even win:)) and retain your liberty, family and job.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[paul browne]

Gassho,
As promised here is the information supplied by Ade.

Here is a direct lift from the CPS website http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section13/chapter_t.html
"The Law and Evidential Sufficiency
Self-defence is available as a defence to crimes committed by use of force.

The basic principles of self-defence are set out in Palmer v R, [1971] A.C 814;
"It is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary."

The common law approach as expressed in Palmer v R and other authorities is also relevant to the application of Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 which provides that;
"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."
Section 3 applies to the prevention of crime and effecting, or assisting in, the lawful arrest of offenders and suspected offenders. However, Section 3 only applies to crime and not to civil matters so, for instance, it cannot afford a defence in repelling trespassers by force, unless the trespassers are involved in some form of criminal conduct.
'Reasonable Force'
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of: self-defence; or defence of another; or defence of property; or prevention of crime; or lawful arrest.

In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

was the use of force justified in the circumstances, i.e. was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used excessive in the circumstances?
The courts have indicated that both questions are to answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be To that extent it is a subjective test. There is, however, an objective element to the test. The jury must then go on to ask themselves whether, on the basis of the facts as the accused believed them to be, a reasonable person would regard the force used as reasonable or excessive.
In R v Martin (Anthony), TLR 1 November 2001, the Court of Appeal held that in deciding whether a defendant had used reasonable force in self-defence it was not appropriate to take into account the fact that the defendant was suffering from some psychiatric condition at the relevant time, except in exceptional circumstances which would make such evidence especially probative.
It is important to bear in mind when assessing whether the force used was reasonable the words of Lord Morris in Palmer v R ,1971 A.C. 814;
"If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken...".
The fact that an act was considered necessary does not mean that such action was reasonable.
Where it is alleged that a person acted to defend himself/herself from violence, the extent to which the action taken was necessary will, of course, be integral to the reasonableness of the force used.
Where the purpose of the act is alleged to have been the prevention of crime and/or the apprehension of offenders, necessity in acting may not equate with reasonableness in the choice of action deployed. This approach was confirmed in R v Clegg 1995 1 A.C. 482 HL
In assessing whether it was necessary to use force, prosecutors should bear in mind the period of time in which the person had to decide whether to act against another thought to be committing a crime. The circumstances of each case will need to be considered very carefully.
Final Consequences
The final consequences of a course may not be relevant to the issue as to whether the force used was reasonable. Although the accused's conduct resulted in severe injuries or even death, the conduct may well have been reasonable in the circumstances. On the other hand, the infliction of very superficial or minor injuries may have been a product of simple good fortune rather than intention. Once force was deemed to be unreasonable, the final consequences would be relevant to the public interest considerations."
The stated intent to carry a knife and advice to stab a burglar would be taken as a statement of preparation to stab no matter what level of violence was offered.
Adrian Starr

Just to reinforce this point here is a hypothetical scenario.
You wake in the night having heard a noise downstairs. Your tired, befuddled (perhaps a little hung-over) and now a little scared. You pick up your kitchen knife you keep by the bed for just such an eventuality. You have it by your side as you quietly turn into the hallway......straight into the path of the intruder comming the other way. He's startled and raises his arms. You're startled and perform gyaku zuki to maisanmai. He drops to the floor with your knife in his heart. He's unarmed. Your unmarked. He has no record. Oh yeah....and your a black belt. I don't fancy your chances with the other twelve.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[paul browne]

Gassho,
As an addendum to the last two posts, there are of course sensible actions you could take if you felt your home had an intruder. It might be sensible to pick up an instrument of defence, and having knowledge in the effective use of such an item would be useful. The most useful items of this type would be blunt instruments (and I don't mean this in the sense of cave-man like bludgeoning) as they allow a measured response to the threat faced. This is why such items are now issued to policemen. The knowledge of how to use such an item is readily available and adapting it to your Shorinji training is not difficult. Just be careful not to mistake it for proper Shorinji Buki training as this has a proper form of its own. (If you are really stuck PM me and I'llprovide some links and make suggestions....some polite:))

[QUOTE=Ronnie Smart]I agree.
I think that also might be why Buddhist martial arts don't customarily train in edged weapons, but blunt ones.
Whilst I see where Ronnie's comming from it is not strictly historically accurate. Shaolin-tsu Chuan Fa from which Shorinji Kempo gets its name and inspiration teaches many weapons including halberds, spears and swords. In fact one of the two murals Kaiso took inspiration from shows many of these weapons being practiced. In Japan the huge Buddhist monastries of Kyoto and Nara had large armies of Sohei (warrior monks) famous for their skill with naginata (halberd) sword and even musketry. One sub-temple, the Hozo-in was famous for it's use of the spear and gave it's name to a school of spearmanship (So-Jutsu) that is still taught today. So it is more accurate to say that Kaiso's interpretation of Buddhist martial arts doesn't teach edged weapons, or i'd argue doesn't teach weapons at all. It teaches the ability to press into service the paraphenalia of a Buddhist priest or pilgrim as an instrument of defence should the need arise.

Finally a discussion on the ethnic/demographic make up of offenders seems to be building so just this from my own experience. When I moved to the area I now live in I moved from West London (an area with high Indian/Pakistani/Afro-Caribean populations) to the Dover area. Now Dover, being close to France has relatively large numbers of 'asylum seekers' (to use the emotive language of the tabloids) and the locals by and large are very suspicious (and a little nervous) of them. I barely noticed them when I came since I was used to a much more diverse population. So what?.
Well a year after I arrived a man was knifed to death in a much used alley near where i work. At work the common speculation was that an 'Asylum-seeker' must have done it. The reality was a white 'family here since William the Conquerer' local junkie had killed him in a mugging attempt.
There were two more murders in Dover that year, both committed by Brits on Brits. There have been several more murders/attempted murders/ rapes and serious assaults in the area (which is by and large safe) in the years since, most commited by Brits on Brits. When each one happens they still bet it was an 'Asylum seeker'.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[JL.]

Gassho!

Those explanations were quite helpful. However I still believe the general idea of a law against preparing to defend oneself to be somewhere in the regions of Moose may not be viewed from an airplane (http://www.dumblaws.com/random-laws/), as far as dumb laws go.

However, the law doesn't always seem to be exactly 'on the smart side', anyway. There is nice evidence from Texas (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/texas/), like:
A recently passed anticrime law requires criminals to give their victims 24 hours notice, either orally or in writing, and to explain the nature of the crime to be committed.

Up to a felony charge can be levied for promoting the use of, or owning more than six dildos.

When two trains meet each other at a railroad crossing, each shall come to a full stop, and neither shall proceed until the other has gone.

The last one is also mirrored in a New York law (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/new-york/): New Yorkers cannot dissolve a marriage for irreconcilable differences, unless they both agree to it.
(I think this is called a "Catch 22", isn't it?)

And as a German I shouldn't throw to many stones, I suppose: A pillow can be considered a "passive" weapon (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/international/germany/). :D

Anyway, the British law in question might still find it's place among it's fellows (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/international/united-kingdom/), I suppose. Because combined with the fact that, AFAIK, being trained in unarmed self-defense is considered to be similar to carrying a weapon in most countries, this sums up to it pretty much being against the law to do anything to protect oneself.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

P. S.: Please excuse the slight drift – it was too good a chance to pass. ;) JL
P. P. S.: I just spotted another Catch 22 in the above, I think: If the perpetrator of a crime has to inform the victim 24 hours beforehand, anything the victim does about it will count as preparation for self-defense, wouldn't it? :p JL

Edit: Didn't see the last post before posting, so not meant as a reaction to that. JL

[dirk.bruere]

Let me clarify things as well. In general I do not advocate male trained martial artists searching for burglars with a pre-prepared selection of weapons they keep to hand for just such an eventuality.
In my case it might be unavoidable though. My weapons collection includes a tanto, two Bowies in Damascus, two hunting knives in Damascus, an antique hunting knife, a Viking sword and five Katanas. Several are displayed on a kind of 'shrine' in my downstairs main room. Some are in various drawers. One right now is lying on the kitchen table and a couple of katanas are standing against the wall in my bedroom. If someone did break in I can likely assume that if they were not armed to start with they would be seconds after entry. In such a case I feel it reasonable to take one of my knives with me

[judepeel]

To lighten the tone a little, I was once sleeping on a friends sofa as she was nervous being in the house alone, late at night I heard what I thought was someone trying to get in the back door (it was actually the neighbours door) so I picked up the nearest thing to hand which was a toy lightsabre and made my way to the back door.

I always wondered what a thief's reaction would be to being assailed by a glow in the dark lightsabre wielded by a girl in a rugrats T-shirt.

I personally believe most intruders would be scared off by knowing someone is awake so I make plenty of noise and turn on lights a while before heading down slowly and noisily to check (I think I even called out to an imaginary boyfriend to come down with me once) - I'm generally armed with a mobile phone and I wouldn't take a knife. If I was really convinced someone was in my house I'd shut my bedroom door and sit behind it and call the police.

[Anders Pettersson]

Gassho.

I just saw one detail that I wanted to correct, I'm sure Paul don't mind, especially since he has the right understanding for this, proven of what he wrote, but he uses a wrong word. ;)


Just be careful not to mistake it for proper Shorinji Buki training as this has a proper form of its own.
We actually don't have any buki [武器] (weapons) at all in ShorinjiKempo.
But as you then wrote:
So it is more accurate to say that Kaiso's interpretation of Buddhist martial arts doesn't teach edged weapons, or i'd argue doesn't teach weapons at all. It teaches the ability to press into service the paraphenalia of a Buddhist priest or pilgrim as an instrument of defence should the need arise.
You have the correct understanding of the tools we use, but the correct term for shakujō, nyoibō, kongōsho (dokko), etc. is hōki [法器].
Just as Paul write the "tools" we use in ShorinjiKempo are primarly buddhist "paraphernalia" (I had to look up that word, first time I ever seen it, and you misspelled it Paul, making it even harder to to find ;) ) so that is why we call it hōki [法器] rather than buki [武器] (weapons).

/Anders

[paul browne]

Gassho,
Hi Anders,
The indignity of it, taught my own language by someone who speaks it as a second (or is it fourth?):)
Actually I managed to misspell my employers (Her Majesty's) title this morning (spelt it Majesties....like there's a whole bunch of 'em) on an official document in front of three magistrates so I'm on something of a roll. Any way you can have the new word as my gift to you, it's a good score in Scrabble.
Thankyou for correcting my post, I was pretty sure I had the spirit of what I meant but the language often fails me (Japanese I mean ...not English.)
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[Ewok]

Just as Paul write the "tools" we use in ShorinjiKempo are primarly buddhist "paraphernalia" (I had to look up that word, first time I ever seen it, and you misspelled it Paul, making it even harder to to find ;) ) so that is why we call it hōki [法器] rather than buki [武器] (weapons).

/Anders

But to be fair many Japanese still call it "buki" ;)

Also what is more correct? Dōi or dōgi?

[Ronnie Smart]

Whilst I see where Ronnie's comming from it is not strictly historically accurate. Shaolin-tsu Chuan Fa from which Shorinji Kempo gets its name and inspiration teaches many weapons including halberds, spears and swords. In fact one of the two murals Kaiso took inspiration from shows many of these weapons being practiced. In Japan the huge Buddhist monastries of Kyoto and Nara had large armies of Sohei (warrior monks) famous for their skill with naginata (halberd) sword and even musketry. One sub-temple, the Hozo-in was famous for it's use of the spear and gave it's name to a school of spearmanship (So-Jutsu) that is still taught today. So it is more accurate to say that Kaiso's interpretation of Buddhist martial arts doesn't teach edged weapons, or i'd argue doesn't teach weapons at all. It teaches the ability to press into service the paraphenalia of a Buddhist priest or pilgrim as an instrument of defence should the need arise.

[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes, I thought about what I wrote afterwards and now disagree with what I wrote in terms of Shaolin, as they do train in edged weapons. I have heard that the Shaolin Temple monks though became famous for their excellent staff techniques in military action. (I'll find the article about this if you want- I found it on google scholar).

Anyway, a knife has little flexibility as a weapon unless you want to really injure or kill another person, and it seems there is very little justification for using a knife in self-defence. I started the thread to start thought about the topic of viable defence against a knife should a person be unfortunate enough to be unarmed against one. If I had the opportunity to use a weapon against a knife-weilding attacker, I would, just not another knife. That's really an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind situation, isn't it? ;)

Gassho all

[Ronnie Smart]

Sorry, I mean using a knife against a knife.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

But to be fair many Japanese still call it "buki" ;)

Also what is more correct? Dōi or dōgi?
My Kimpatsu detector is squeaking!!! Dōgi, of course.

[paul browne]

Hi Ronnie,
As far as I know, and I'm no scholar on this just widely read and with too much time on my hands, you are quite right. The Shaolin was historically most famous for their staff techniques, even more so than their boxing. I recall reading an article (by Graham Noble or Harry Cook I think) that described a 19th Century Chinese soldier attending Shaolin to study their staff techniques only to find that time had eroded their abilities and he ended up teaching them!
Please send the link to the article.
I'm glad to see your computer doesn't type what you meant either;)

Doi or Dogi? all I know is after training mine smells like a wet Doggy:)

Paul

[Steve Malton]

Let me clarify things as well. In general I do not advocate male trained martial artists searching for burglars with a pre-prepared selection of weapons they keep to hand for just such an eventuality.
But you do advocate female trained martial artists to do it? ;)


My weapons collection includes a tanto, two Bowies in Damascus, two hunting knives in Damascus, an antique hunting knife, a Viking sword and five Katanas ... If someone did break in I can likely assume that if they were not armed to start with they would be seconds after entry. In such a case I feel it reasonable to take one of my knives with me.
In such a case I'd feel it more reasonable to make sure all these weapons were under lock and key so that anyone breaking in wouldn't have access to them.


I make plenty of noise and turn on lights a while before heading down slowly and noisily to check
I thought the advice was to leave the lights off? I mean, I know the layout of my house pretty well in the dark, but an aggressor wouldn't - doesn't keeping the lights off give you an advantage here?

[dirk.bruere]

But you do advocate female trained martial artists to do it? ;)


Depends on the level of training, but I would advocate females in general to arm themselves simply because of the strength disparity should violence ensue.



In such a case I'd feel it more reasonable to make sure all these weapons were under lock and key so that anyone breaking in wouldn't have access to them.


It doesn't worry me, and I have no intention of modifying my quite legal behaviour in order to ensure the safety of a burglar in their criminal enterprise.

Dirk

[Steve Malton]

The idea wasn't to ensure their safety - it was to ensure yours. If your weapons are locked away, someone can't use them against you. If you don't, you're left in the situation where you have to arm yourself just in case, and then all the options you have are bad ones. Someone could well end up dead, and there's no guarantee it won't be you. But if no-one has a weapon, I'm fairly sure a gentleman of your training could whup the young toerag and drag him/her off to the cops.

And then there's the legal issue. I see the cross-examination as something like this:
Shifty lawyer: "So you took a knife with you, fought with and stabbed the burglar. Why?"
Good kenshi: "Well, he had one of my swords."
Shifty lawyer: "And why do you leave these lying around where anyone could get hold of them?"
Good kenshi: "Well, it's not a problem, cos if someone does then I've got a knife."
Jury: "I think we've heard enough. Guilty, yer honour."

[dirk.bruere]

The idea wasn't to ensure their safety - it was to ensure yours. If your weapons are locked away, someone can't use them against you. If you don't, you're left in the situation where you have to arm yourself just in case, and then all the options you have are bad ones. Someone could well end up dead, and there's no guarantee it won't be you. But if no-one has a weapon, I'm fairly sure a gentleman of your training could whup the young toerag and drag him/her off to the cops.

And then there's the legal issue. I see the cross-examination as something like this:
Shifty lawyer: "So you took a knife with you, fought with and stabbed the burglar. Why?"
Good kenshi: "Well, he had one of my swords."
Shifty lawyer: "And why do you leave these lying around where anyone could get hold of them?"
Good kenshi: "Well, it's not a problem, cos if someone does then I've got a knife."
Jury: "I think we've heard enough. Guilty, yer honour."

Actually, not guilty.
There is no legal requirement for me NOT to display my swords (and what are sword stands for, in that case?). Plus if someone is attacking me with a sword and they get killed in the process it comes under "justifiable force". If I get killed I promise not to complain.

Of course, I could maybe just use some of the bottles of concentrated hydrochloric or sulphuric acid I also have (currently) in one of my bedrooms. A lot safer than fighting it out knife v sword eh?

Then there is the 1" diameter solid aluminium rod I have lying on the floor of the living room. One whack with that and someone's brains would be decorating the walls. No doubt I should put that under lock and key immediately. And let's not even mention the power extension cord across the floor...

Perhaps I should lock all of this away... in my house?

Dirk

[Ewok]

I was going to suggest that you build a moat, but from the sound of the other thread you'd have trouble getting help if you called the plod in...

[dirk.bruere]

I was going to suggest that you build a moat, but from the sound of the other thread you'd have trouble getting help if you called the plod in...

The police around here are totally useless. The last one I talked to suggested that as they were "powerless" I "get together with some neighbours". I'm beginning to wonder why I pay their wages.

I'm told that the local crime "hotspot" (ie the area within 50m of my house) has been downgraded because instead of receiving some 30 calls a day they are now only getting two or three. The reason is not that crime has dropped but people have stopped reporting it because calling the police has no effect.

I guess the Chief Constable will be bragging about "crime reductions" in the local paper.

Dirk

[Anders Pettersson]

But to be fair many Japanese still call it "buki" ;)

Yes, that might be so, but it doesn't make it correct. :)
Sshakujō, nyoibō, kongōsho (dokko), etc. is listed in the Kyōhan as hōki [法器].



Also what is more correct? Dōi or dōgi?
I have never heard anyone say "dōi", just seen it written (romanized) that way a couple of times. I guess both could be correct Japanese, but dōgi is definately the most common in ShorinjiKempo.

/Anders

[Ade]

Actually, not guilty.
There is no legal requirement for me NOT to display my swords (and what are sword stands for, in that case?). Plus if someone is attacking me with a sword and they get killed in the process it comes under "justifiable force". If I get killed I promise not to complain.

Of course, I could maybe just use some of the bottles of concentrated hydrochloric or sulphuric acid I also have (currently) in one of my bedrooms. A lot safer than fighting it out knife v sword eh?

Then there is the 1" diameter solid aluminium rod I have lying on the floor of the living room. One whack with that and someone's brains would be decorating the walls. No doubt I should put that under lock and key immediately. And let's not even mention the power extension cord across the floor...

Perhaps I should lock all of this away... in my house?

Dirk

I think we all know what should be locked away.

This thread has turned stupid in the extreme.

Tony Martin used to say that he would shoot burglars and as a result when he did he got jailed (as it was taken as a statement of intent), but even he wasn't stupid enough to write down his intentions as evidence of intent....stupid stupid stupid.....and totally outside of Shorinji kempo philosophy, and this is a Shorinji Kempo forum not a loonies happy knife hour special.

[Anders Pettersson]

I think we all know what should be locked away.

This thread has turned stupid in the extreme.

Tony Martin used to say that he would shoot burglars and as a result when he did he got jailed (as it was taken as a statement of intent), but even he wasn't stupid enough to write down his intentions as evidence of intent....stupid stupid stupid.....and totally outside of Shorinji kempo philosophy, and this is a Shorinji Kempo forum not a loonies happy knife hour special.
Well said.

This thread is done, and will now be locked.

/Anders