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Nathan Scott
3rd October 2007, 22:05
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Nathan Scott
3rd October 2007, 22:14
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don
4th October 2007, 01:29
Nothing to contribute, but interesting stuff. Thanks for posting.

Eric Spinelli
4th October 2007, 02:09
I was looking through the translation of Jigoro Kano's "Kodokan Judo" book and noticed a few interesting things. In regards to the Katame no Kata (grappling forms), on page 160 Kano describes a forward movement method on the ground in which the uke is kneeling with one leg raised up (closed kyoshi) and "shuffles" forward towards the opponent by over extending the forward foot and then recovering forward with the rear knee (always remaining same foot forward). Kano states "this method of moving on one knee is called shikko." Different in usage than the shikko walking method practiced in aikido, but similar in movement during the application of many of our suwariwaza kata.

This method of movement is used in some iai schools, namely Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Those affiliated with the ZNIR / Seitokai seem to perform the kata in a serious of steps that makes it very easy to see (video here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=C-Zsowc67L4)). Even the Shimomura-ha MJER (and thus Muso Shinden Ryu and Seiteigata), which moves the back leg first during furikaburi, also includes a small but similar movement during the cut.

I don't know what this movement is called in relation to MJER, but I will ask next practice. I believe sensei even practiced judo as a school boy (war era) so I'll pick his brain about any relationship between the movements or terms.

Nathan Scott
4th October 2007, 02:52
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Eric Spinelli
4th October 2007, 08:27
Good point. No offense intended, but I've never been a big fan of seiza-no-bu iai (suwari iai).... I am familiar with the shuffle stepping on the knee performed while performing kiriotoshi (kirioroshi?) you referenced in your post, and would guess it's pretty similar to how judo moves in Kime no Kata.


Geez, and here I specifically posted a video from tatehiza-no-bu!! Actually, the motion is the same whether you are moving from seiza, tatehiza, or standing. And, yes, kiriotoshi = kirioroshi.

Nathan Scott
6th October 2007, 00:31
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Eric Spinelli
7th October 2007, 14:12
After talking with sensei he mentioned that, while the footwork called 'shikko' by Jigoro Kano and that of iaido (specifically MJER) is very similiar, it is not the same. I cannot, unfortunately, report the specifics as both sensei and I were drunk at the time and it is frowned upon to practice and/or demonstrate martial arts in bars.

The name for the footwork in MJER is "ma o tsumeru" (間を詰める ). This shouldn't be too surprising to anybody familiar with the terminology used in other parts of the MJER curriculum, particularly the tachiuchi portion; there is tsume-ai no kurai (詰合之位 ), daisho-zume no kurai (大小詰之位 ), and daisho-tachi-zume no kurai (大小立詰之位 ).

-Eric

Nathan Scott
15th October 2007, 18:43
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Raff
16th October 2007, 10:50
Kano was known to be concerned about incorporating practical self-defense techniques into judo. Since Takeda Sokaku was the same generation as Kano, and Ueshiba was one of his leading students, Kano sent several of his students to cross train in "aikijujutsu" under Ueshiba. I don't know if Mifune Kyuzo was among them, but it is clear to me now that there is more DR influence in some of the judo kata than I originally understood. Perhaps Mifune trained informally with some of the judo students who cross trained under Ueshiba? Mifune's "kamiwaza" (ex: kukinage) throws do appear more characteristic of aikido / Daito-ryu principles than what was typically seen by other senior Judo exponents of his time.







Regards,

http://www.admaristas-judo.com/imagenes/Historia_archivos/yokoyama.jpg

I don't think that kyuzo Mifune did ever study Daito-Ryu but he was tge student of the famous Sakujiro "Oni" Yokoyama (on the picture above) who was one defeated by Shiro Saigo when, as a member of the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, he challenged the recently established Kodokan.

Since Saigo and Yokoyama became "training partners" for some time, we might well assume that Yokoyama could get some technical influence or inspiration so to speak from Saigo and that some of the Saigo's skills might also have survived through Yokoyama's instruction to his best pupil, who is also considered to be the best Judo exponent ever. So, there might be a link between Daito-ryu principles and Kyuzo Mifune's outstanding skills.

Nathan Scott
20th June 2008, 21:49
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K Keckeisen
13th August 2008, 16:34
Wow this is a great thread!! Thank all of you who contributed. Now I can tell this information to my students and seem really smart.:D

Eric Pearson
13th August 2008, 18:58
I think the strongest link between Daito Ryu and Judo is Kenji Tomiki. Tomiki Aikido is a synthesis of these two lineages...IMHO.

Ellis Amdur
13th August 2008, 19:43
T. Threadgill and I have speculated that Yoshida Kotaro, of whom so little is known, perhaps had a previous or concurrent study history of Yoshin-ryu. The reasons? a) his connection with the Yoshin-ryu factions, as in the aforementioned picture b) the name he used for his own practice - Yanagi-ryu, which, like the "yo" in yoshin-ryu, means willow. Given that there is no known Yanagi-ryu connected with Yoshida previous to him (shades of Daito-ryu), it is logical to assume that this way of practicing/"ryu" started with him.
Maybe not. Maybe he was a neophyte who learned Daito-ryu from Takeda and that's it.
Best

Nathan Scott
15th August 2008, 16:42
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Richard Elias
15th August 2008, 20:09
Actually Yoshida Kotaro was said to have earned scrolls in several arts prior to Daito ryu.

Quoted from an interview with Katsuyuki Kondo:

“Yoshida Sensei had been awarded another scroll that was not from the Daito-ryu school. Among his personal techniques were the tessenjutsu (iron-fan techniques).”

Though Kondo speculates that he may have learned this after studying with Takeda it may very well have been prior.

Additionally, according to Toby Threadgill, in the notes felt by Shigeta Ohbata (Grandfather of Takamura Yukiyoshi and person friend of Yoshida) Yoshida was a very expierenced martial artist in his own family art “an obscure family heiho” and several others.

The family art can be presumed to be Yanagi ryu at this point, given the evidence of the picture taken in the mid 20’s of a teenaged Kenji Yoshida in front of the family armor a scroll and stating such.

Given that the picture was taken in the 20’s, and Yoshida began training with Takeda in 1914 and continued to teach daito ryu until he passed away, it seems pretty logical that he had been training Kenji in Yanagi ryu prior to having met Takeda. Otherwise he in all probablility would have just taught him Daito ryu, or called what he was teaching Yanagi ryu. He did neither. He most probably trained Kenji in the art, fullfuling his familial obligations, then went off pursued his own training.

According to Don Angier, Kenji told him that his family had originally come from Satsuma, Kyushu, and then moved North. In an interview with Jibiki Hidemine (a Daito ryu student of Yoshida) he states that the Yoshida’s family had been samurai in Tohoku region, which is where Yoshida Kotaro grew up and was schooled.

Now, as I understand it, Shingestu Muso Yanagi ryu’s has its origins in Kyushu, in an art that was called simply Yanagi ryu until its headmaster changed the name after adding to the art from his personal experience in other systems. Even today they also often refer to their art as just Yanagi ryu.

Plausable history…

The Yoshida family, living in Kyushu may have learned Yanagi ryu (which, based on available video, share some similar weapons kata, and the unusual use of a long-handled sword and other weapons arts) prior to the addition of the later kata in the creation of Shingestu Muso Yanagi ryu, and took it with them to Tohoku, where they may have added to the art from the indigenous systems of that region, namely Yoshin ryu of some sort.

From a techincal persepective…

Aside from the aforementioned simliarities to Shingestu Muso Yanagi ryu, Angier’s Yanagi ryu has many more technical similarities to Shindo Yoshin ryu, as opposed to Daito ryu. They share stikingly similar techniques going from the basic kuden waza, kata from all three levels (shoden, chuden, and joden) that I have had oportunity to experience, and even the Shinkage-based kenjutsu and higher level principles.

I know that’s a lot of speculation, based on available information, but it all fits and if Yoshin ryu didn’t have any influence on Yoshida, then I sure would like to know where Don learned this stuff. I don’t think anyone else was doing a Yoshin ryu-influenced martial art in this country in the 50’s aside from Judo.

From my personal experience in both Yanagi ryu and Shindo Yoshin ryu I am convinced that Don Angier’s Yanagi ryu is Yoshin ryu derived and not Daito ryu. I personally think that any Daito ryu-esque similarities were added by Don from his experience in Aikido.

Eric Joyce
15th August 2008, 21:57
I know that’s a lot of speculation, based on available information, but it all fits and if Yoshin ryu didn’t have any influence on Yoshida, then I sure would like to know where Don learned this stuff. I don’t think anyone else was doing a Yoshin ryu-influenced martial art in this country in the 50’s aside from Judo.

Hi Richard,

Would Danzan Ryu Jujitsu be considered a Yoshin ryu style? If memory serves me, Sensei Okazaki trained in Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu for 13 years. Of course he added elements of Judo and other arts of jujutsu into his system. During the 1950's, I think there were a few people that came to the states and began teaching it. Just curious and speculating here.

Richard Elias
15th August 2008, 23:06
Yes, Okazaki trained in Yoshin ryu in Hawaii, I forgot about that. Correct me if I'm wrong, he studied with a Yoshimatsu Tanaka at the Shinyukai dojo.

Do you how much of Yoshin ryu still exists in his Danzan ryu?
Do they have kata acknowledged to be specificallly from the particular ryuha that make up the system?

Not sure when exactly Danzan ryu made it to the mainland, but Don didn’t make it to California until the mid 50’s and was already doing Yanagi ryu then. We have video of him from that period and he’s doing much the same stuff he always has, though not as clean as he would later be. Don has never mentioned training in Danzan ryu, though he knew many of the old timers in the art. But then, the martial arts commmunity wasn't so large back then. Also, Danzan ryu lacks much of a weapons curriculum which Yanagi ryu is largely based in. So I don't think there's a connection there, but who knows.

Eric Joyce
16th August 2008, 00:26
Hi Richard,

You are correct. Okazaki studied under Tanaka Sensei back in 1906 in Hilo at the Shinyukai dojo.

As for how much Yoshin Ryu exists in Danzan Ryu, that I do not know. I am not that familiar enough with Yoshin Ryu to give you an honest answer. I will check on that. As for the kata specific to a particular ryuha, again I am uncertain. This is what I do know...they have:

Shoden - Beginning Teachings
• Yawara - Techniques of Gentleness
• Nage Te - Throwing Techniques
• Shime Te - Constriction Techniques

Chuden - Intermediate Teachings
• Oku No Te - Deeper Techniques
• Fujin Goshin No Maki - Scroll of Women's Self Defense
• Kiai no Maki - Scroll of Spirit Shout Technique
• Tetsu-Sen No Maki - Scroll of Iron Fan Techniques
• Tanto No Maki - Scroll of Knife Techniques
• Daito No Maki - Scroll of Sword Techniques
• Bo No Maki - Scroll of Stick Techniques
• Tanju No Maki - Scroll of Pistol Techniques

Okuden - Deep Teachings
• Kappo - Resuscitation Techniques
• Shinin No Maki - Beginning Level Black Belt Techniques
• Shinyo No Maki - Instructor Level Black Belt Techniques
• Shingin No Maki - Professor Level Black Belt Techniques

We also practice hanbo techniques and Goshin Jitsu - Self Defense Techniques. Also, there is very little sword work from what I have seen. For the actual names and descriptions, you can check out the names here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzan_Ryu_Lists

The old school Danzan Ryu guys were Bud Estes, Richard Rickerts, John Cahill and Ray Law. They founded the American Judo and Jujitsu Federation (AJJF) in 1948. Then in 1958, the AJJF was incorporated in the State of California. Sig Kufferath, Wally Jay and others also help establish Danzan Ryu too.

Some techniques look very similar to judo, some to jujutsu. Okazaki Sensei used both modern and classical names in his jujitsu. Maybe after reviewing the link I posted, you may have a better idea on how much Yoshin Ryu is present although it may require actually seeing the techniques in play. I think the connection may just be that Okazaki Sensei trained in Yoshin Ryu jujitsu and then combined elements from Yoshin and other styles of jujitsu to create his own jujitsu. Of course it is all just speculation. I hope this helps a bit.

Ron Beaubien
16th August 2008, 01:45
The family art can be presumed to be Yanagi ryu at this point, given the evidence of the picture taken in the mid 20’s of a teenaged Kenji Yoshida in front of the family armor a scroll and stating such.

However doesn't that logic seem tenuous at best? How can you be sure from just a picture that it was even his house, scroll, or family armor?

I've had my picture taken at McDonald's, but I don't own the restaurant chain nor have I ever worked there. A picture is just a picture.

Couldn't have Yoshida Kotaro just been visiting someone else's house and had his picture taken?

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Richard Elias
16th August 2008, 02:26
The picture is not of Yoshida Kotaro, but of his son Kenji in his teens. It is a formal portrait, he is wearing montsuki (formal kimono with the family crest on it) and hakama, seated in seiza. (incidentally, there are nuances to the way he is seated and the arrangement of his costume that are peculiar to Yanagi ryu) The armor behind him has matching crest (mokkou) on the helm, and the scroll beside it reads “Yanagi ryu Aiki bugei”.

The crest is one that Yoshida had always used and was passed on to Angier sensei, as was the name of the art. He received the picture from Yoshida Kenji himself, and it has been professionally authenticated and dated to the mid 1920’s.

Hardly tenuous, more like validating evidence.

Note: When speaking of Yoshin ryu related arts it should be taken into consideration just how incredibly common using the term “Yoshin” was in reference to various jujutsu ryuha. Many of the different systems that used Yoshin in the name are completely unrelated, even though they may come from the same area of Japan. In his research my teacher Toby Threadgill has noted at least 10 different ryuha using the term Yoshin in their names, in least 4 different unrelated lines.

Ellis Amdur
19th August 2008, 06:34
A little more can be gleaned about Yoshida. Per Aikido Journal, Born: Miyama-mura, Tamura-gun, Fukushima Prefecture.
Hidemine Jibiki states that he was a samurai of the Miharu clan - this clan was located in the area/town of Miharu, which is in Tamura-gun. The Miharu were a family of wealthy farmers/low ranking warriors, in the northeast of present-day Fukushima province. Aizu was to the far west of the same geographic area. According to one paper I read, the Miharu clan, along with the Shibata, were organized by wealthy farmers to, to fight, along with peasants against the shogunate - hence against the Aizu.
At any rate, I mention this because it actually gives some ground to research. Miharu Village is a town of appr. 20,000 people, and well-known for it's folk art and cherry trees. I've found that small towns like this, particularly those with a heritage, usually have a very active library and historical society researching things.
Thus, one may be able to find a) Family records of the Yoshida family (a very common name) that is associated with the Miharu b) records of bujutsu taught in that area (although in the same prefecture as Aizu, it was governed by a different han and separated by several han c) Records of when the Yoshida might have moved in - if, in fact they did.
People are VERY particular about such things. A friend of mine, a private detective, was up in Tohoku once, and was interviewing a very proud old woman, who mentioned a family living in a wealthy looking mansion about a 1/4 mile away. "Ah yes, the 'new' people. You know, they came here less than 600 years ago, and they act like they actually belong here."

I wouldn't even wait to get a Japanese translator, either. Were this my field of research, I'd write to the library and any museums in the area, in English, if needs be, and get things started.
Best

Dan Harden
28th August 2008, 18:15
Does anyone have any information on Kenmochi Yuya?
Takeda's eimoroku entry as Yanagi Go ryu in 1898?

It is surprising the amount of Koryu practitioners who trained with him Including Yagyu shingen and shinen ryu teachers and their students as early as 1898.
The earliest entry I have seen of a Judoka (and there are many) is 1901 Takahashi Kuniharu 6th dan.
Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
28th August 2008, 19:00
P.S.
The entry for training was in Miyagi.
So many obscure arts.

George Kohler
28th August 2008, 21:27
Does anyone have any information on Kenmochi Yuya?
Takeda's eimoroku entry as Yanagi Go ryu in 1898?

Maybe the reading for this ryuha is Ryugo-ryu.

Nathan Scott
28th August 2008, 22:47
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Dan Harden
29th August 2008, 00:44
Hi Nathan
Yes, I caught that at the time it was published-but for several reasons, not just translation troubles mentioned here.
I was interested in the judo entries and the early dates for something else.

Cheers
Dan

Nathan Scott
3rd October 2008, 21:54
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