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Harold James
4th January 2001, 02:33
I found a print out I had forgot about the Chuwa-ryu Tankenjutsu (’†˜a—¬), and had meaning to ask someone about it. So I tried to load the same site to see if I could find out more about it as the names for the kata are the same as for the Ikkaku-ryu. The original site had removed their page about the Tanken, but I found one other site though that had information about the Chuwa-ryu and connected it directly to the Ikkaku-ryu. The first site though had some pages on these Ryu:

Uchida-ryu Tanjojutsu (“à“c—¬’Z?ñ?p)
Tousei-ryu Tanjo jutsu (“Œ?ª—¬’Z?ñ?p)
Tousei-ryu Muteshou (ka?) jutsu (“Œ?ª—¬–³Žè?Ÿ?p)

They had a page with some information about the Uchida-ryu, but the page with information about the Tousei-ryu didn?ft say anything more about the history of this school than to mention that with the Meiji Restoration several Budoka compiled methods of self-defense using a stick including the Uchida-ryu and others: http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/i/jodo/tanjo/tanjotoha.html (in Japanese)


I looked in the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten and found the Uchida-ryu for Tanjo but not the Tousei-ryu.

Has anyone heard of the Tousei-ryu Tanjo and Muteshou jutsu and or the Chuwa-ryu Tanken? And is there a connection with these schools and the SMR?

Thanks

Meik Skoss
16th January 2001, 04:21
Chuwa-ryu is a variant name for Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu. The names of the techniques are the same and any variations are due to differences between teachers/teaching lines, and not due to a difference in "style" or "school" per se.

Interestingly enough, if one does the Uchida-ryu waza with a shoto, one has a dandy set of short sword techniques that are really quite functional. Some of them would also work as jutte, hence the references to both weapons in sources here and there.

Hope this helps.

fogarty
3rd February 2008, 02:36
Chuwa-ryu is a variant name for Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu. The names of the techniques are the same and any variations are due to differences between teachers/teaching lines, and not due to a difference in "style" or "school" per se.

I've been told and read in most places that it was rather a variant name for another associated art: namely, Ikkaku-ryu juttejutsu. They were apparently taught to women, whereas the more gentlemanly Ikkaku-ryu was taught to men.

pgsmith
4th February 2008, 23:14
Hi Sean,
Just thought I would ask ... Do you realize that you're continuing a discussion from over seven years ago with a couple of people that are no longer members?

:D

Fred27
5th February 2008, 08:45
I've been told and read in most places that it was rather a variant name for another associated art: namely, Ikkaku-ryu juttejutsu. They were apparently taught to women, whereas the more gentlemanly Ikkaku-ryu was taught to men.

Ah! There you are! I was wondering who changed the Ikkaku-ryu article :-)

fogarty
5th February 2008, 23:59
Just thought I would ask ... Do you realize that you're continuing a discussion from over seven years ago with a couple of people that are no longer members?

I've been continuing the same discussion my entire life. . .

(not even half jokingly)

paul browne
7th February 2008, 16:21
Please excuse the ignorance displayed by these questions but is the Tanken refered to a bayonet? and is "suttekki" a Japanese phonetic rendering of the English word 'stick' in the same way that the words camera, taxi and knife (as in cutlery) were adopted?
Regards
Paul

fogarty
8th February 2008, 02:59
Please excuse the ignorance displayed by these questions but is the Tanken refered to a bayonet? and is "suttekki" a Japanese phonetic rendering of the English word 'stick' in the same way that the words camera, taxi and knife (as in cutlery) were adopted?
Regards
Paul

Well, pretty much. Tanken is what the bayonet is called when it's removed from the gun, but here it refers to another short, straight blade, and sutekki can mean "cool" or a phonetic rendering of stick like kamera, takushi, and naifu among hordes of other once-English words. It's called that because it's a modification of the art for a western walking-stick like Sherlock Homes' baritsu.

paul browne
8th February 2008, 08:20
Sean
Thankyou
Paul

Fred27
8th February 2008, 09:42
and is "suttekki" a Japanese phonetic rendering of the English word 'stick' in the same way that the words camera, taxi and knife (as in cutlery) were adopted?
Regards
Paul

To quote Pascal Kriegers book "Way of the stick":


"In fact, this art of using a Western-style walking stick was long referred to as "Sutekkijutsu", from a mispronunciation of the english word "stick".

Just a side-note, he also says:

"Until 1978, a plaque in the Rembukan Dojo of Shimizu Sensei in Tokyo still referred to this short stick art as "Sutekki-jutsu".

Fred27
8th February 2008, 13:17
About the whole Chuwa-ryu thing. I'm still not sure what to make of it all.

I found this website (http://www.westcoasttaikai.com/seminars.htm) that describe a seminare. One of the Sensei's described is Niina Toyoaki Gyoksui. His credentials are listed as:

Soke Meishi-Ha Mugai Ryu IaiHyodo
9th Dan Hanshi Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo
8th Dan Hanshi Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo
8th Dan Hanshi Uchida Ryu Tanjo Jutsu
8th Dan Hanshi Isshinryu Kusarigamajutsu
8th Dan Hanshi Ikkakuryu Juttejutsu
8th Dan Hanshi Chuwaryu Tankenjutsu

Notice that Chuwa-ryu has its own entry and so does Ikkaku-ryu and Uchida-ryu. Meik Skoss states Chuwa-ryu is another name for Uchida-ryu, and Fogarty mentions that Chuwa-ryu is is one of the names used to describe Ikkaku-ryu.

So what gives?

*edit*
I'm not questioning the above Senseis credentials or anything. :)

Ron Beaubien
8th February 2008, 13:23
About the whole Chuwa-ryu thing. I'm still not sure what to make of it all.

I found this website (http://www.westcoasttaikai.com/seminars.htm) that describe a seminare. One of the Sensei's described is Niina Toyoaki Gyoksui. His credentials are listed as:

Soke Meishi-Ha Mugai Ryu IaiHyodo
9th Dan Hanshi Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo
8th Dan Hanshi Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo
8th Dan Hanshi Uchida Ryu Tanjo Jutsu
8th Dan Hanshi Isshinryu Kusarigamajutsu
8th Dan Hanshi Ikkakuryu Juttejutsu
8th Dan Hanshi Chuwaryu Tankenjutsu

Notice that Chuwa-ryu has its own entry and so does Ikkaku-ryu and Uchida-ryu. Meik Skoss states Chuwa-ryu is another name for Uchida-ryu, and Fogarty mentions that Chuwa-ryu is is one of the names used to describe Ikkaku-ryu.

So what gives?

*edit*
I'm not questioning the above Senseis credentials or anything. :)

Perhaps you should ask Renfield Kuroda here on E-Budo as the person referred to above is his teacher, if I am not mistaken.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Fred27
8th February 2008, 14:00
Sounds like a good idea. I'll send him a PM.

renfield_kuroda
8th February 2008, 23:28
Niina-gosoke learned those as ancillary arts to Shindomusoryu Jo, under Shiokawa who studied with Iwameji and others I believe under Kaminoda (not entirely sure on the lineage there sorry.)
He has always discussed them as separate arts, though they always seem to be taught together.
I have very brief experience with them all. As we practice them they are very similar in that the fundamentals of avoidance, maai, entry, etc. are basically the same; the only difference is the type of weapon you are holding and therefore how you use it.
I believe Shiokawa's big book of Mugairyu also lists Jo and these ancillary arts as he teaches them.
FWIW, I've seen several different schools do some of these arts and we all look different. Dunno who's "right" and who's "wrong", but it's a big fat curriculum and lots of fun!

Regards,

r e n

renfield_kuroda
8th February 2008, 23:31
Has anyone heard of the Tousei-ryu Tanjo

As far as I know, Niina-gosoke invented Tousei-ryu. It's basically "cane/stick/umbrella self defense" based on the traditional Uchida-ryu tanjo techniques.
Could be wrong about him inventing it, though I thought that's the case...

Regards,

r e n

renfield_kuroda
8th February 2008, 23:46
This is the page from the Tojoren (Tokyo Jodo Renmei) about the ancillary arts.
Note that Niina-gosoke established the Tojoren a couple decades ago when he first came up to Tokyo, though he is no longer involved with it as such.

http://www.tojoren.jp/03fuzoku/fuzoku.php

Regards,

r e n

Enfield
9th February 2008, 01:32
Tanken is what the bayonet is called when it's removed from the gun, but here it refers to another short, straight blade,Tanken just means short sword. Straight has nothing to do with it. It's mijikai/tan, meaning short and the same as in tanto, plus ken. It is used for a detached bayonet, but that's not its primary meaning. In older kendo texts, you'll see descriptions of the kendo kata like:

daito nanahon, uchidachi, shidachi choken.
shoto sanbon, uchidachi choken, shidachi tanken.
Long sword seven forms: uchidachi [and] shidachi [have] long swords.
Short sword three forms: uchidachi [has] a long sword; shidachi [has] a short sword.


and sutekki can mean "cool" or a phonetic rendering of stick like kamera, takushi, and naifu among hordes of other once-English words.Sutekki only means stick. Suteki means nice, lovely, cool, etc. The two have distinct pronunciations in Japanese.

Fred27
9th February 2008, 09:19
This is the page from the Tojoren (Tokyo Jodo Renmei) about the ancillary arts.
Note that Niina-gosoke established the Tojoren a couple decades ago when he first came up to Tokyo, though he is no longer involved with it as such.

http://www.tojoren.jp/03fuzoku/fuzoku.php

Regards,

r e n

Hey there Renfield. Thanks for your swift reply. :)

About that website.

"jitte"-section 一角流十手術の形 (http://www.tojoren.jp/03fuzoku/jitte.php) (which I'm fairly certain translates as Ikkaku-ryu) and a "tanken"-section - 中和流短剣術 (http://www.tojoren.jp/03fuzoku/tanken.php) (which seems to mean Chuwa-ryu tankenjutsu).

In this website, and the previous one I posted, both state that Chuwa-ryu and Ikkaku-ryu are seperate and they both (according to the photos) use the jitte/jutte. If chuwa-ryu is indeed a seperate art as the site, and others, say it is, how old is it and who founded it?

Fred27
9th February 2008, 09:27
Dunno who's "right" and who's "wrong", but it's a big fat curriculum and lots of fun!

Regards,

r e n

yeh I agree 100%! Just to reassure the people: My inquiry is not of a "bad-budo" type, just endless curiosity based in little part on practical matters as we are also trying to decide what to put in the wikipedia article covering Ikkaku-ryu. (perhaps I must create a new article called Chuwa-ryu too) :D

renfield_kuroda
9th February 2008, 13:08
In this website, and the previous one I posted, both state that Chuwa-ryu and Ikkaku-ryu are seperate and they both (according to the photos) use the jitte/jutte. If chuwa-ryu is indeed a seperate art as the site, and others, say it is, how old is it and who founded it?

This page seems to explain some of the origin:
http://www.tojoren.jp/03fuzoku/sonota.php


Regards,

r e n

Fred27
9th February 2008, 14:33
This page seems to explain some of the origin:
http://www.tojoren.jp/03fuzoku/sonota.php


Regards,

r e n

I seemed to have left my japanese dictionary in my other trousers :D. If anyone can give a brief summary in english of the above I'd be grateful :)

fogarty
16th February 2008, 12:59
As for me, as if anyone cares about little ol' me, it's from personal communication with a practitioner (though not of Chuwa ryu) in Ehime and Japanese information generally available on the web. Meik noted, interestingly, that the founder of the style is the same person as founded Uchida ryu, so it is related to the tanjo. Note that "jittejutsu" (forked truncheon technique) is itself a modernization of Ikkaku ryu as originally it wasn't restricted in weapons and they used whatever was available, including weapons of the knife variety. Whether upper-crust Japanese women actually wore their knives rather than laying them on the table within reach of the children or not and why he gave the style a new name I haven't the foggiest. So gag me with a spoon.

fogarty
16th February 2008, 13:24
I seemed to have left my japanese dictionary in my other trousers :D. If anyone can give a brief summary in english of the above I'd be grateful :)

Brief or briefs? Here goes nothing:

Tokyo Jodo Renmei public web page ~Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu~

Ittatsu Ryu Hojojutsu, Ikkaku Ryu Jittejutsu, Isshin Ryu Kusarigamajutsu, Chuwa Ryu Tankenjutsu

About the transmission from the founder to the present just this. . .

First hojojutsu, the original Shindo Muso Ryu bojutsu (note to most Japanese it's still bojutsu)'s third headmaster founded it. It goes without say this was necessary to appease the ashigaru (footsoldier) men liege to the Kuroda clan.

Also, about Ikkaku Ryu jittejutsu, this was transferred from the now unfortunately extinct hojojutsu school of the same said school.

. . .

Chuwa Ryu tankenjutsu Saburo ?? Hirano and Hanjiro ?Gishin Yoshimura who were studying Chuwa Ryu kenjutsu, substituted for the forked truncheon and steel-encased fan a short, straight blade and curved shortsword mixing in Chuwa Ryu naginatajutsu (ie. the curved, convex-edged polearm which came to be associated with women) to create Chuwa Ryu tankenjutsu it is thought.

Wow! Somebody save this page -- I tend to lose them.

Fred27
16th February 2008, 15:12
Brief or briefs? Here goes nothing:

Tokyo Jodo Renmei public web page ~Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu~

Ittatsu Ryu Hojojutsu, Ikkaku Ryu Jittejutsu, Isshin Ryu Kusarigamajutsu, Chuwa Ryu Tankenjutsu

About the transmission from the founder to the present just this. . .

First hojojutsu, the original Shindo Muso Ryu bojutsu (note to most Japanese it's still bojutsu)'s third headmaster founded it. It goes without say this was necessary to appease the ashigaru (footsoldier) men liege to the Kuroda clan.

Also, about Ikkaku Ryu jittejutsu, this was transferred from the now unfortunately extinct hojojutsu school of the same said school.

. . .

Chuwa Ryu tankenjutsu Saburo ?? Hirano and Hanjiro ?Gishin Yoshimura who were studying Chuwa Ryu kenjutsu, substituted for the forked truncheon and steel-encased fan a short, straight blade and curved shortsword mixing in Chuwa Ryu naginatajutsu (ie. the curved, convex-edged polearm which came to be associated with women) to create Chuwa Ryu tankenjutsu it is thought.

Wow! Somebody save this page -- I tend to lose them.

That is very interesting but there are still a few questions.

I know Saburo Hirano was of the Haruyoshi branch (of SMR), and Yoshimura Hanjiro was of the Jigyo branch. Shiraishi Hanjiro recieved a joint-license of these two branches and would later teach Otofuji and Shimizu Sensei (and others of course). Chuwa-ryu does not seem to have survived in the lineage I train in, which is that of Shimizu Sensei.
Shiokawa-ha, where Chuwa-ryu Tankenjutsu is mentioned, was of Fukuoka heritage as I understood it. Is Chuwa-ryu taught in the Fukuoka Jo as well or is it only Shiokawa-ha? I dont recall Matsui Kenji of Fukuoka making any mentioning of it.

renfield_kuroda
20th February 2008, 12:27
I believe just about everyone under that particular bit of the Fukuoka lineage did all the arts. At least, Niina-gosoke and all the guys he trained with including Yamada, Iwameji, etc. (all shihan now) did them.
Tojoren still does them all as well.

Regards,

r e n

fogarty
24th February 2008, 01:46
That is very interesting but there are still a few questions.

I know Saburo Hirano was of the Haruyoshi branch (of SMR), and Yoshimura Hanjiro was of the Jigyo branch. Shiraishi Hanjiro recieved a joint-license of these two branches and would later teach Otofuji and Shimizu Sensei (and others of course). Chuwa-ryu does not seem to have survived in the lineage I train in, which is that of Shimizu Sensei.
Shiokawa-ha, where Chuwa-ryu Tankenjutsu is mentioned, was of Fukuoka heritage as I understood it. Is Chuwa-ryu taught in the Fukuoka Jo as well or is it only Shiokawa-ha? I dont recall Matsui Kenji of Fukuoka making any mentioning of it.

That's basically it, but doesn't quite check out. Forgive me if I can't find the English translation by the Hawaiian for the Hoplological Society, but in MATSUI Kenji's book both HIRANO Saburo and YOSHIMURA Hanjiro as well as their students *including* SHIRAISHI Hanjiro are listed without their branches. It appears to me that the former two cross-studied to a notable extent, as well as both studying Chuwa Ryu. . .

fogarty
24th February 2008, 02:56
Sutekki only means stick. Suteki means nice, lovely, cool, etc. The two have distinct pronunciations in Japanese.

Yeah, but an English-language speaker pronouncing "suteki" might say "sutekki". . .


I dont recall Matsui Kenji of Fukuoka making any mentioning of it.

He's of Fukuoka? Funny, I caught up with him, his top student, and a foreign student in Tokyo some years ago. . . now what were their names? Isn't his organisation Tokyo-based too? I thought he was one of those who studied the Fukuoka lineage, got their license, and went right back to Tokyo. . .

Lance Gatling
24th February 2008, 03:43
Tanken just means short sword. Straight has nothing to do with it. It's mijikai/tan, meaning short and the same as in tanto, plus ken. It is used for a detached bayonet, but that's not its primary meaning. ........

As indicated, the generic term tanken means 'short sword', but in the instance of jukendo, tanken refers to the 'sword bayonet' used on almost all Meiji era military rifles, including the French and Imperial Japanese armies, sources of the techniques of jukendo. And, they must be more or less straight because otherwise an upward curving blade obstructs the line of fire.

In military applications, the original notion was that the sword bayonet by itself could be used for defense, in the event of close combat, weapon jams, etc. Mounted on the long rifles of the era, you end up with a fair slashing weapon, but mostly used for thrusting.

Later style, short bayonets, adopted as rifles became more reliable and the utility of the longer 'sword bayonets' came into question, were often called 'knife bayonets' because they are shorter, knife length. Now they're usually just called bayonets. Slashes are much tougher with short knife bayonets and modern assault or bullpup type rifles.

I know of no current use of 'sword bayonets' worldwide, and most are now simply antiques, collectors' items. I have some in storage, including an Imperial Army one, but can't bring them into Japan because they now qualify as 'swords' under the Sword Act. :cry:

The balance and length of some sword bayonets I've handled is such that the techniques of tankendo seem quite effective, but most are unsharpened. Still, they're a pretty good chunk of steel, if limited by rudimentary handles.

Fred27
24th February 2008, 08:27
Yeah, but an English-language speaker pronouncing "suteki" might say "sutekki". . .



He's of Fukuoka? Funny, I caught up with him, his top student, and a foreign student in Tokyo some years ago. . . now what were their names? Isn't his organisation Tokyo-based too? I thought he was one of those who studied the Fukuoka lineage, got their license, and went right back to Tokyo. . .

It's been awhile since I read Matusi Sensei book so if I missed some info I apologise.

You are correct. Matsui Kenji started out in Tokyo, but when Shimizu Sensei died he became a student of Otofuji Ichizo (Fukuoka). So his jodo, as it was described to me, is a mix of both Tokyo and Fukuoka. I honestly don't know which is the dominating half, but whenever I've heard people describing him they've always referred to him as "Fukuoka".

Here is a clip of Matsui Kenji's swordwork by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fopdncdNG2Y

fogarty
24th February 2008, 10:29
Here is a clip of Matsui Kenji's swordwork by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fopdncdNG2Y

Yeah, that appears to be the top student I mentioned from behind. I saw him in Kyoto and he has the best-looking jo technique I've ever seen.

Final translation:

From http://www.tojoren.jp/03fuzoku/sonota.php

Tokyo Jodo Renmei public web page ~Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu~

Ittatsu Ryu Hobakujutsu, Ikkaku Ryu Jittejutsu, Isshin Ryu Kusarigamajutsu, Chuwa Ryu Tankenjutsu

About these four arts, they were born from the process of transmission of what is now jodo from the founder, so here I shall summarize and explain them.

Firstly, taking hobakujutsu, the original Shindo (True-path) Muso Ryu bojutsu’s [1] third headmaster MATSUZAKI Kin’(u)emon Shigekatsu was the originator. Originally because jojutsu was transmitted as one of the men’s vocational arts (comprising martial arts put into practise by the noncommissioned officers, common foot soldiers, and constables including jojutsu and hobakujutsu) of the Kuroda clan’s retainers, it was surely natural to branch out into hobakujutsu, etc.

Also, regarding Ikkaku Ryu jittejutsu, as a hobakujutsu of the aforementioned men’s vocational arts, there was Ikkaku Ryu, and jittejutsu being one section was taken out and set aside. Unfortunately Ikkaku Ryu Hobakujutsu has apparently gone extinct.

Isshin Ryu Kusarigamajutsu originated with Nen’amijion ([founder of] Nen Ryu) and TSUTSUMI Norisanu ([founder of Tsutsumi] Hozanryu), and is an art compiled out of the sixth headmaster’s tendancy towards holism [2]. Because the twenty-fourth-generation soke of Shindo Muso Ryu SHIRAISHI Hanjiro was also the tenth-generation soke of Isshin Ryu kusarigamajutsu, it is still in transmission. Concerning Isshin Ryu’s yoroi kumiuchi (system of striking in Japanese armour) and other arts, thought to be due in part to being overshadowed by Isshin Ryu kusarigamajutsu, unfortunately they seem to be extinct.

Furthermore, on the Kuroda clan’s vassal men’s vocational arts, besides Muso Ryu, about the quarter-staff of Ten’ami Ryu jojutsu, Shinnyu konkijutsu, as well as hobakujutsu, other than Ikkaku Ryu and Ittatsu Ryu, because Seigo Ryu and Jigo Tenshin Ryu were also studied, it is thought that jitte and kusarigama are included in the esoteric, oral, and other aspects some of these arts.

Taking Chuwa Ryu tankenjutsu, HIRANO Saburo Yoshiteru and YOSHIMURA Hanjiro Yoshinobu who were studying Chuwa Ryu kenjutsu are thought to have substituted for the forked truncheon and steel-encased fan a short straight blade and curved shortsword [3] mixing in Chuwa Ryu naginatajutsu (ie. the curved convex-edged polearm which came to be associated with women) to create Chuwa Ryu tankenjutsu.

[1] Note that in Japanese language it's still known simply as bojutsu to most people.
[2] This is a nonstandard rendering or even typo that has been taken as a name TAN Isshin and transmitted to present in all sources, substituting the character for cinnabar as in seika ‘tan’den for the character for simple as in kan’tan’, whereas the said headmaster’s name was actually HARAYUKI (U)Emon Ujisada.
[3] This seems to have been later changed by someone who does not read Japanese to uchidachi while adding a particle which make it unintelligible.

fogarty
24th February 2008, 11:44
Tanken just means short sword. Straight has nothing to do with it. It's mijikai/tan, meaning short and the same as in tanto, plus ken. It is used for a detached bayonet, but that's not its primary meaning. In older kendo texts, you'll see descriptions of the kendo kata like:

daito nanahon, uchidachi, shidachi choken.
shoto sanbon, uchidachi choken, shidachi tanken.


As indicated, the generic term tanken means 'short sword', but in the instance of jukendo, tanken refers to the 'sword bayonet' used on almost all Meiji era military rifles, including the French and Imperial Japanese armies, sources of the techniques of jukendo. And, they must be more or less straight because otherwise an upward curving blade obstructs the line of fire.

To add to that, I went through Tankendo Kyosoku ("Guidelines") from the Zen Nihon Jukendo Renmei (All Japan Jukendo Federation), 31 March 2000 and there is no mention of the word tanken at all. The training weapons used by practitioners are referred to as kotachi/tachi/katana in general, or tanshinai/shinai and tanbokuto/bokuto in particular. Since they're short the curvature is negligable. "Kensen" is used to mean the imaginary line of the sword, and "ken" is only used twice when refering to the assailant. Is it possible that the older sword practitioners have since corrected their initial error? The Guidelines contain the injunction, 「無刀とるつもり位を稽古して小太刀の心かんがみて知れ」 "Learn to feel the mentality of the short curved sword; train that place willing to take no sword."

Lance Gatling
24th February 2008, 14:04
To add to that, I went through Tankendo Kyosoku ("Guidelines") from the Zen Nihon Jukendo Renmei (All Japan Jukendo Federation), 31 March 2000 and there is no mention of the word tanken at all. The training weapons used by practitioners are referred to as kotachi/tachi/katana in general, or tanshinai/shinai and tanbokuto/bokuto in particular. Since they're short the curvature is negligable. "Kensen" is used to mean the imaginary line of the sword, and "ken" is only used twice when refering to the assailant. Is it possible that the older sword practitioners have since corrected their initial error? The Guidelines contain the injunction, 「無刀とるつもり位を稽古して小太刀の心かんがみて知れ」 "Learn to feel the mentality of the short curved sword; train that place willing to take no sword."

Interesting, thanks. I will meet w/ some of the Jukendo Federation types, will ask whazzup?

You're translating 小太刀 kodachi as 'short curved sword'. Is that strictly so, or can kodachi be straight?

IIRC jukendo practice is strictly w/ tanshinai (short bamboo sword) or tanbokuto (short wooden sword) so I don't guess their manuals would include references to live swords.

I wonder if the similar kendo manual would have any reference to katana, or only training weapons like shinai or bokuto? ;)

fogarty
29th February 2008, 13:46
You're translating 小太刀 kodachi as 'short curved sword'. Is that strictly so, or can kodachi be straight?

IIRC jukendo practice is strictly w/ tanshinai (short bamboo sword) or tanbokuto (short wooden sword) so I don't guess their manuals would include references to live swords.

I wonder if the similar kendo manual would have any reference to katana, or only training weapons like shinai or bokuto? ;)

Strictly speaking, the characters used in katana, tachi and anything-toh or tsurugi, and anything-ken are from Chinese. The first is dao (curved broadsword) and the second it jian (straight sword). Tachi seems to be original Japanese stuck to Sinitic characters in an attempt to render its meaning as a "broad katana" but it sounds as if it originally meant standing which supports the theory that it originally had to do more with how the blade was worn (i.e. standing on its edge, strung from the belt or something outside the armour) than its dimensions in any way.

Strictly speaking, it's tankendo and not jukendo, which is the main art.

Kendoists are often encouraged to try iaido if they want to know about the sword, for obvious reasons that it can't be used in sparring and such. Although, some do smithing, or collecting and appraising instead. . .

fogarty
29th February 2008, 14:02
Sorry to hog the thread, but http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%AA%E5%88%80 shows a derivation rather from a verb tatsu meaning to sever/cleave and so on, in which case I'd translate it as "cleaver" . . .

Exacto knives and industrial guillotine paper-cutters and so forth are called kattah, and hohchoh or naifu for knife is common Japanese as well . . .