Yamabushi Ryu

[Tom Karazozis]

http://www.yrjj.net/firstpage.htm

What the %#&! is "Yamabushi Ryu"? Apparently it's a school of "Nien/Nein? Jitsu"(I just answered my own question, yes I know), but what the hell is "Nien/Nein Jitsu? On their website it says that it's a blend of Ju Jutsu, Kick boxing and traditional Kuuurootee weapons.

After years of training in this Nien stuff, when you reach some sort of higher enlightened level, you start learning the Holy arts of Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and "Tameshigiri Techniques" from an other modern self invented style.

To add more, what does Pegasus have to do with Yamabushi and the stuff they supposedly practice? and what on earth are those funky Kanji looking characters? Why is there a Torii 'INSIDE' the dojo? http://www.yrjj.net/upcomingsems.htm WHY? WHY? WHY?!

[Tom Karazozis]

Sorry! I posted this in the wrong forum. Please feel free to move this to the Baffling forum. Thank you.

[Nii]

Quite an informative topic name, if I may say so =)

[Tom Karazozis]

Quite an informative topic name, if I may say so =)

Well, if you want a more informative or detailed title for this subject, It would be my pleasure to provide you with one, just ask =).

[roninseb]

Well Tom you found us a nice little jewel here.

All I can say so far on this one is that this is what you get when you mix the following ingredients.

#1 Self proclaimed in a home made ryu. This amounts to the pictures and techniques we see in the videos they have on their website what the heck was he hacking at?

#2 Total Cheap taste and lack of knowledge in general. This will come out usually in making funky names using bunch of known Japanese words or expressions that look cool but that Japanese either would never use out of knowledge of their own language being the context in which to use the Kanji or expression. Anyway what kind of fools would think that using such crappy kanji that look as if they had been made by ha kid whit his Spiro graph at Christmas.

#3 In order to make themselves look somehow legit they will invite all kinds of other fools with other made up ryu to be able to baffle other into thinking they are doing something real.


Anyhow my beef here is that all those fools want to be and look special but they lack any kind of real knowledge or understanding of Japanese culture and language so this is hwy their dojo as far as naming decoration etc… will usually be of very bad taste. They will use anything that they think looks cool and use it and then the other fools that they link themselves will also fail to correct this stuff afterwards this goes on to show that they do not know much about tradition as well.

[Josh Reyer]

Am I the only one who doesn't think this is that bad? Sure, the decor/style is a bit tacky, but it seems to be a result of honest enthusiasm. The teacher seems above board on his background and what he teaches, and rather than just grab a sword and make up a bunch of "kata", he appears to be seeking qualified help in bringing Japanese sword into his system. James Williams, AFAIK, is quite esteemed in JSA circles. I dunno, there are certainly lots of things to point at and laugh at, but OTOH it seems...honest. Like this is the result of the teacher's personal shugyo. On the scale of shugyo, it's not exactly up there with Tsukahara Bokuden, but it doesn't seem to be doing any harm.

Now, if one wants bad kanji, dodgy "Japanese", and a history fishy as all get-out, check out this site (http://martialpaths.com/).

[Tom Karazozis]

Am I the only one who doesn't think this is that bad?

Well, to tell you the truth, only you can answer that question.



The teacher seems above board on his background and what he teaches, and rather than just grab a sword and make up a bunch of "kata", he appears to be seeking qualified help in bringing Japanese sword into his system.

What backround? Yamabushi ryu, Nien jutsu? Sorry, doesn't exist in Japan.
As for 'Japanese Sword', well, again, only you can find out for your self.



James Williams, AFAIK, is quite esteemed in JSA circles

For a modern interpretation of Japanese sword arts, maybe he is known in the states, but not in Japan.



On the scale of shugyo, it's not exactly up there with Tsukahara Bokuden

What shugyo? and what does this have to do with Tsukahara Bokuden?


Now, if one wants bad kanji, dodgy "Japanese", and a history fishy as all get-out, check out this site.

Yes, I agree, It is bad writing, but you can make out the Kanji and actually read it. The other ones aren't even Kanji.

[Josh Reyer]

Well, to tell you the truth, only you can answer that question.

Actually, no. I need other people to tell me what they think.


What backround? Yamabushi ryu, Nien jutsu? Sorry, doesn't exist in Japan.
As for 'Japanese Sword', well, again, only you can find out for your self.

I'm aware of that. And guess what, he never says that it does! Never even implies it! All he's done is give his synthesized art a somewhat goofy name.


For a modern interpretation of Japanese sword arts, maybe he is known in the states, but not in Japan.

And your point is? What's your criteria of being "known in Japan"? Donn Draeger was certainly known in Japan. Many of the luminaries on the boards here: not so much, outside of their own particular circles. Heck, the vast majority of the Japanese aikido population don't know the major Japanese shihan teaching abroad.


Yes, I agree, It is bad writing, but you can make out the Kanji and actually read it. The other ones aren't even Kanji.

No, you can't read it, because the only "word" that makes sense is "Shinto". Everything else is made-up garbage. Karato? WTF?

Look, I'm not saying that this "Yamabushi-ryu" is top-end martial arts, nor that they have a refined grasp of Japanese culture. All I'm saying is my impression from their website is that in a world of self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "soke", of fraudulent "koryu" and "aikijutsu", of McDojo karate-ka grabbing an aluminum katana and whipping it around like in a kung-fu movie, and taekwondo guys grabbing Okinawan weapons and teaching "ninjitsu", this place has a kind of refreshing honesty. It's a couple guys with an interest in martial arts and a decade or so in different local American dojo passing on what they've learned in their neighborhood. And it certainly looks like they're trying to improve on what they do, with qualified help. My point is, maybe (probably) what they do is crap, but if so, it's honest crap. And I'd rather see honest crap than something false and effective, like "Kaze Arashi Ryu." But that's just me. I really didn't mean to spoil your fun.

[Kachimushi]

I have to agree with Mr. Reyer. I could see nothing that made me believe that they were professing to be the only remaining teachers of a long thought lost Japanese art that was only taught to the Emporer's wet-nurses' second-cousins (twice removed). I have a lot more respect for them, than for say a "school of Bushido" that was founded in 1129 by General Taisho Matsumoto of Kyushu, whose descendant brought the art to Canada, taught only one student, returned to Japan, and then later adopted said student (by letter sent to the embassy that was written in "ancient Japanese and took university professors 1 year to translate"- which is actually a sad sign of Japan's declining education system as my wife and I read the letter fairly easily).

I see that many of the posters in this thread are located in Japan, or have spent some time living in Japan. I think that we should remember that not everyone is able to come and train in Japan, no matter how much they may want to. They have to make do with what they have, and those that don't try to hide that under a layer of lies are alright in my book.

But, like Mr. Reyer, that's just me, and I really didn't mean to spoil your fun, either.

[Samurai Jack]

I think Tom Karazozis has a legitimate concern base on the website. He makes some remarks I feel raise red flags. I looked at the website and there are other things that raise red flags. All of which points to question is this for real? It does make me wonder. I think all schools should be looked at seriously with a critical eye. That is just good sense. If you don't think the school is for real then it isn't for you, and possibly others. If you find they are for real, you partake and share the news. A public discussion helps determine for others to support it or not in the martial arts community.

A school like this which puts its self together as it has, does raise legitmate eyebrowns, and discussion about it. If a school is going public, like a public figure, it should be discussed, and it will be attacked if it doesn't look correct. The onus is on the school, and not on the individual who raises concerns about it being for real, regardless of the motive of the individual. FWIW.

[Kachimushi]

I think Tom Karazozis has a legitimate concern base on the website. He makes some remarks I feel raise red flags. I looked at the website and there are other things that raise red flags. All of which points to question is this for re al?

Admittedly, I didn't comb through all of the site, so maybe I missed something. What was it in particular that you all felt raised some red flags?

[Aozora]

This may be a case of player-haterism. Have you seen their dojo? I think I hate them too... wow... http://www.riveroflifecenter.net/dojogallery.htm :D

[EddieK]

All I needed to see was "...I studied Nin Jitsu under Fank Dux..." That was enough of a red flag for me

[P Goldsbury]

Well, the aikido section of the site is quite respectable, since the dojo is affiliated with the ASU, with links doing directly back to the founder of aikido. The iaido, too, seems OK, since the teacher in Japan is Mitsuzuka Sensei. I have met James Williams, who also appears on the site, and recollect that he appeared at Stanley Pranin's Aiki Expo on at least one occasion.

So the only question remaining for me is the provenance of Yamabushi-ryu. The Chinese characters admittedly look strange, but I would also like to hear more about the red flags.

By the way, the E-Budo rules were revised quite recently and Rule 3 requires that a thread should have an informative title. This is especially important in the Baffling Budo forum.

Best regards to all.

[P Goldsbury]

All I needed to see was "...I studied Nin Jitsu under Fank Dux..." That was enough of a red flag for me

We all make mistakes. Anything else?

[Tom Karazozis]

I'm aware of that. And guess what, he never says that it does! Never even implies it! All he's done is give his synthesized art a somewhat goofy name.

Yes, but he is using the terms 'Kenjutsu', 'Iaijutsu' and 'Tameshigiri' which in fact IS Japanese and teaching these systems to "advanced students". Now, how "advanced" is he to teach Japanese sword arts to "advanced students"? And what qualified help is he seeking? Do you mean the other modern synthesized system of Japanese swordsmanship made in America?




And your point is? What's your criteria of being "known in Japan"? Donn Draeger was certainly known in Japan. Many of the luminaries on the boards here: not so much, outside of their own particular circles. Heck, the vast majority of the Japanese aikido population don't know the major Japanese shihan teaching abroad.


This is not about being known or being "famous" in Japan by virtue of your Japanese swordsmanship backround(I could not care less about fame). And also, I'm not a big admirer of Donn Draeger, but he did have a legitimate backround and very good status within one of the most respected and profound schools of Bujutsu in Japan and probably made sure that its traditions were heedfully preserved. I also know or have seen alot of teachers or instructors outside of Japan that keep their traditions intact and would not hesitate to scold their students for changing stuff or misplacing Tachi and goofing around by putting superfluous-tacky crap on the Tokonoma, Shomen or putting Torii "IN" the dojo.




No, you can't read it, because the only "word" that makes sense is "Shinto". Everything else is made-up garbage. Karato? WTF?

Ofcourse, it's made up and amateurishly written, yes!, but I can still read the Kanji.

?= On'Yomi= Ten(Sky, heaven, Celestial etc...)
?= Kan'on= Shu. Kun'yomi=Mawari, Amaneshi, Meguru (Periphery, Circumference)
?= On'yomi= Shin, Jin. Kun'yomi= Kami, Kou, Tamashii (spirit, soul, divinity, god, supernatural etc..)
?= On'yomi=Do, To. Kun'yomi= Michi, Iu (Path, road, street, method, way)
?= On'yomi= Ku. Kun'yomi= Kara, Aku, Sora (empty, bare, hollow, etc...)
?= On' yomi= To. Kun'yomi= Katana (Knife, sword or type of sabre etc...)
?= On'yomi= Ryu. Kun'yomi= nagareru, nagasu, nagare (style, class, flow, circulate etc...)

Tenshu Shindo Karato Ryu. Made up !!!!!!!!, your right, but can you read the Kanji now?

Now can you read this? http://www.yrjj.net/ HELL NO!!!




Look, I'm not saying that this "Yamabushi-ryu" is top-end martial arts, nor that they have a refined grasp of Japanese culture. All I'm saying is my impression from their website is that in a world of self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "soke", of fraudulent "koryu" and "aikijutsu", of McDojo karate-ka grabbing an aluminum katana and whipping it around like in a kung-fu movie, and taekwondo guys grabbing Okinawan weapons and teaching "ninjitsu", this place has a kind of refreshing honesty. It's a couple guys with an interest in martial arts and a decade or so in different local American dojo passing on what they've learned in their neighborhood. And it certainly looks like they're trying to improve on what they do, with qualified help. My point is, maybe (probably) what they do is crap, but if so, it's honest crap. And I'd rather see honest crap than something false and effective, like "Kaze Arashi Ryu." But that's just me. I really didn't mean to spoil your fun.

Listen, your absolutely right on this one. I'm sure they are a bunch of jolly good fellows and honest people, but I don't see how this gives them the right to mess up Japanese or any other traditions, using labels or names that don't make sense with what they do and teaching all this crap. Oh and you didn't spoil any of my fun, don' worry about it ;)

[Tom Karazozis]

All I needed to see was "...I studied Nin Jitsu under Fank Dux..." That was enough of a red flag for me

LOL! Was waiting for someone to sift that one out.

[Tom Karazozis]

By the way, the E-Budo rules were revised quite recently and Rule 3 requires that a thread should have an informative title. This is especially important in the Baffling Budo forum.

Understood, will be more aware of that in the near futur.



We all make mistakes. Anything else?

Yes, but he didn't even realize his mistake yet and displays it on his website as if it were some outstanding credential. To add more, if James williams had any tangible or concrete knowledge of Japanese tradition or Koryu Bujutsu, he would of corrected all this goofy crap.

[P Goldsbury]

Yes, but he didn't even realize his mistake yet and displays it on his website as if it were some outstanding credential. To add more, if James williams had any tangible or concrete knowledge of Japanese tradition or Koryu Bujutsu, he would of corrected all this goofy crap.

You are assuming that Mr Williams himself has seen the site and is in a position to correct the mistakes.

James Williams's website is here:
http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/about.html
You can judge for yourself his knowledge of Japanese tradition and koryu bujutsu.

Best wishes,

[Samurai Jack]

Admittedly, I didn't comb through all of the site, so maybe I missed something. What was it in particular that you all felt raised some red flags?

I don't want to personally sound as if I am attacking this dojo. But, first impressions say a lot, and are important. The webpage and some of the information posted is first point of contact where impressions are made. To me I get a sense of incoherent assembly of philosophy and genuine presence. I get a sense of replication in their paradigm. Areas in which, I have seen demonstrated by less then genuine inferior virtual arts and dojos. Whether my impression stands or not will depend upon a concrete experience with them. Until then I all I have to make evaluations based on is what is presented as first contact information. Sometimes opposite first contact information leads to poor evaluation post experience.

[Tom Karazozis]

You are assuming that Mr Williams himself has seen the site and is in a position to correct the mistakes.

James Williams's website is here:
http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/about.html
You can judge for yourself his knowledge of Japanese tradition and koryu bujutsu.

Best wishes,

Seriously, I am really not concerned if he corrects their mistakes or not. Maybe he himself does not know that these are goofy mistakes.

As for the link, there is nothing on it that really impresses me(this is just my opinion). If you check the origins or resume of his Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu, there are no statements of him getting Menkyo or any other license from any of his teachers in Japanese sword arts. It only says he trained a couple of times here and there and it inspired his made up ryu. Plus, I checked out some of the videos demonstrating this nami-ryu and wasn't to dazzled or inspired(Again, just my opinion). This one especially gave me a funky taste in my mouth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Q1rfLJigQ

Recently there was a posting by Earl Hartman on this forum that had to do with Tanaka Fumon's arrow cutting crap.

He said:


And if the arrow is traveling that slowly, why bother to cut it? Just step out of the way.

Well, I would agree on the same level of his posting towards the Kenjutsu kata in the youtube nami-ryu video. Why do some fancy samurai movie moves?, when you can just step aside and let the guy fall forwardly all by himself? because that is what's happening in the paired Katas. And for someone that would have a good small dose of knowledge on Japanese traditions, especially something that has to do with Japanese swords, they would absolutely never have a horimono on their blade writing ????
(osoraku) http://namiryu.com/images/swords/Nami_Ryu_9_600.jpg
It would be as if I were to have a horimono on my blade saying 'Shobu Zukuri' or even 'Samurai Sword', but anyways, let's get back to the 'Yamabutchee-ryu'.

[P Goldsbury]

Seriously, I am really not concerned if he corrects their mistakes or not. Maybe he himself does not know that these are goofy mistakes.

But this is not what you stated earlier.

As moderator of this forum, I want to make sure that the discussion is fair and reasonable and that the forum rules are kept.

[Tom Karazozis]

But this is not what you stated earlier.

As moderator of this forum, I want to make sure that the discussion is fair and reasonable and that the forum rules are kept.

What do you mean by this? In my previous post I said- "if James williams had any tangible or concrete knowledge of Japanese tradition or Koryu Bujutsu, he would of corrected all this goofy crap." I didn't say, I am concerned and I want James Williams to have it changed right away. Like I said before, maybe James Williams doesn't even know that these are unusual names to give to baffling martial arts. Maybe He also doesn't know what Yamabushi means. Maybe he thinks it means "Mountain Warrior" or some thing similar to that.

If you think that I am not being fair or that I am breaking forum rules, than I will call it quits, as I am getting the feeling that this discussion or ranting is touching some people on a personal level.

[P Goldsbury]

What do you mean by this? In my previous post I said- "if James williams had any tangible or concrete knowledge of Japanese tradition or Koryu Bujutsu, he would of corrected all this goofy crap." I didn't say, I am concerned and I want James Williams to have it changed right away. Like I said before, maybe James Williams doesn't even know that these are unusual names to give to baffling martial arts. Maybe He also doesn't know what Yamabushi means. Maybe he thinks it means "Mountain Warrior" or some thing similar to that.

If you think that I am not being fair or that I am breaking forum rules, than I will call it quits, as I am getting the feeling that this discussion or ranting is touching some people on a personal level.

Look, you started this thread and immediately earned an infraction from the Administrator for breaking forum rules. Then you made a statement, quoted above, about James Williams that connected his 'tangible and concrete' knowledge of koryu bujutsu to his correction of mistakes on another website. If you want this thread to continue, then I suggest that you confine the discussion to Yamabushi-ryu.

[roninseb]

Only one thing seems quite mesmerizing from the look of their website. They dont write anything about teaching Nami ryu but they have a lot of pictures at strategic places on their website somehow leading me to think they are teaching it or something related to it.

[Josh Reyer]

If you think that I am not being fair or that I am breaking forum rules, than I will call it quits, as I am getting the feeling that this discussion or ranting is touching some people on a personal level.

Who? Professor Goldsbury, teaching aikido in Hiroshima? Me, studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu in Nagoya? Mr. Gilchrist, studying whatever he is studying in Seki? Why does it have to be personal just because we don't quite agree with the vehemence of your objections?

I can't speak for these other gentlemen, but all I've done is post my impression from the website, which I believed was the point of the thread. They look to me like a group of people with an interest in martial arts, who've put a lot of time in McDojo's and Made-in-the-USA synthetic "jujitsu" systems, have somewhat tacky tastes in design, and are seeking to improve what they do by bringing in James Williams to teach Nami Ryu. I've never met James Williams, all I know if him is that he's a member of these boards, he's studied with Don Angier and Kuroda Tetsuzan, and he's respected by all accounts for his technique and character. It could be entirely possible that they are misrepresenting their association with him, and he could be very upset, but until I hear something to that effect, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

So, to sum up.
Tacky design sense -
McDojoish training history -
James Williams connection +
No outlandish claims regarding history or lineage +

= Meh, not that bad. Much better than "Tenshu(sic) Shinto Karato(sic) Ryu".

[George Kohler]

I agree with Josh. Nothing really outlandish in my eyes.

[Tom Karazozis]

Look, you started this thread and immediately earned an infraction from the Administrator for breaking forum rules.

Why? by not giving a more obvious title for this subject? I quickly apologized for that mistake. What is this "LAW and ORDER"?


Then you made a statement, quoted above, about James Williams that connected his 'tangible and concrete' knowledge of koryu bujutsu to his correction of mistakes on another website.

Yes, because this 'Yamabushi-ryu' quickly links itself to James Williams and his Nami-ryu.


If you want this thread to continue, then I suggest that you confine the discussion to Yamabushi-ryu.

Absolutely, but again, you have to understand that this 'Yamabushi-ryu' links itself to Nami-ryu because of the Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and 'Tameshigiri Techniques'.

This is the "baffling budo" forum and I'm very baffled by this "budo" school and its links. You are the Moderator, but based on your previous post about keeping it fair, you gave me the impression that I shouldn't go any further than the 'yamabushi-ryu' and leave the school's links out of this, due to your past meeting with James Williams. Now, who's being fair?

[Tom Karazozis]

Who? Professor Goldsbury, teaching aikido in Hiroshima? Me, studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu in Nagoya? Mr. Gilchrist, studying whatever he is studying in Seki? Why does it have to be personal just because we don't quite agree with the vehemence of your objections?

Look, you didn't have to devalue yourself or speak for others in this way. If your trying to impress someone here by giving some statement of what you are doing in Japan or what others are doing than you really chose the wrong person or forum to announce it to. If you think you are special by blabbing out this type of redundant declaration, than I suggest you just stick with volleyball(not that I have anything against volleyball, but...)




I can't speak for these other gentlemen, but all I've done is post my impression from the website, which I believed was the point of the thread. They look to me like a group of people with an interest in martial arts, who've put a lot of time in McDojo's and Made-in-the-USA synthetic "jujitsu" systems, have somewhat tacky tastes in design, and are seeking to improve what they do by bringing in James Williams to teach Nami Ryu. I've never met James Williams, all I know if him is that he's a member of these boards, he's studied with Don Angier and Kuroda Tetsuzan, and he's respected by all accounts for his technique and character. It could be entirely possible that they are misrepresenting their association with him, and he could be very upset, but until I hear something to that effect, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.


Look, If I were to say that I had a clinic and taught medecine and learned it from someone who mixed and matched stuff he learned or studied about with a couple of licensed Doctors from which they had a lineage that dated back to hippocrates, galen right up to Alexander fleming and my clinic would be named 'Athena spartan style of penicillin medicine', would you take me seriously? even if I was honest and trying to make it in medicine, with some little skill, no license and using labels that don't make sense with what I'm doing, would you take me seriously?



So, to sum up.
Tacky design sense -
McDojoish training history -
James Williams connection +
No outlandish claims regarding history or lineage +

= Meh, not that bad. Much better than "Tenshu(sic) Shinto Karato(sic) Ryu".

Again, you have trouble understanding what I meant. I didn't say that this Karato ryu was any better. I said that you can atleast make out the Kanji and that the Kanji exist. The ones on the 'Yamabushi-ryu' site don't, they are not Kanji!

[Kachimushi]

Look, you didn't have to devalue yourself or speak for others in this way. If your trying to impress someone here by giving some statement of what you are doing in Japan or what others are doing than you really chose the wrong person or forum to announce it to. If you think you are special by blabbing out this type of redundant declaration, than I suggest you just stick with volleyball(not that I have anything against volleyball, but...)

I really don't think that that is what was happening. It was stated that people were taking this personally, and mentioning the arts that people practiced was just a way to show that we are in no way (not even a "6 degrees of separation" kind of way) connected with this style/school.




Look, If I were to say that I had a clinic and taught medecine and learned it from someone who mixed and matched stuff he learned or studied about with a couple of licensed Doctors from which they had a lineage that dated back to hippocrates, galen right up to Alexander fleming and my clinic would be named 'Athena spartan style of penicillin medicine', would you take me seriously? even if I was honest and trying to make it in medicine, with some little skill, no license and using labels that don't make sense with what I'm doing, would you take me seriously?

I don't think that Yamabushi-ryu is the same as your medical school. I could be wrong, and this could be a bad analogy, but I see it more as a lack of knowlege than as a distortion of facts. When I came to Japan 7 years ago, my Japanese was crap. One of the reasons that I came was to improve my language abilities, and I think that I am now a little better than when I first came. However, some people never have the opportunity to come and study in Japan. They have to make do with college courses, manga, anime, and textbooks. Once they achieve a certain level of proficiency maybe they will want to share what they learned with other people. Their, and their students', Japanese won't be perfect, but it will be better than nothing if they have a true interest and if there are no other options.

Now as someone who has lived and studied in-country, I may go back and find this study group. I could make fun of their pronunciation and odd use of colloquialisms (not that I can talk, really), while at the same time berating the teacher for actually trying to teach when he really didn`t have the experience necessary to do so. Or, if I was in a position to do so, I could offer advice and help them to improve their Japanese to the best of my abilities (and in turn risk being made fun of and berated by someone more qualified than myself).

Until I started reading E-Budo and watching YouTube, I never realized how many people really don't have a clue, but who think they are doing Japanese martial arts anyways. I would hope that those of us in positions to do so could spend our time helping and teaching those that really want to learn, instead of mocking and ridiculing. In this case, I don't know how we could really help, but I think that the instructor has the right idea in going out and learning more on his own. FWIW.

[P Goldsbury]

Why? by not giving a more obvious title for this subject? I quickly apologized for that mistake. What is this "LAW and ORDER"?

I think you'd need to take up the 'law & order' issue with the Administrator. After all, it's his forum.



Yes, because this 'Yamabushi-ryu' quickly links itself to James Williams and his Nami-ryu.

Absolutely, but again, you have to understand that this 'Yamabushi-ryu' links itself to Nami-ryu because of the Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and 'Tameshigiri Techniques'.

This is the "baffling budo" forum and I'm very baffled by this "budo" school and its links. You are the Moderator, but based on your previous post about keeping it fair, you gave me the impression that I shouldn't go any further than the 'yamabushi-ryu' and leave the school's links out of this, due to your past meeting with James Williams. Now, who's being fair?

My moderating here has nothing to do with my once having met James Williams. I think you are tarring James Williams with the same brush as you tar Yamabushi-ryu and you appear to do this because there is a photograph of Mr Williams on the top page and he has given courses in a different art.

If you want to discuss James Williams, then do so in a separate thread, with a more illuminating title than you gave this one.

[Josh Reyer]

Look, you didn't have to devalue yourself or speak for others in this way.

I asked you a question. Please answer.

[Samick123]

James 'effing Williams is standing right there... photo op' maybe? Who knows for sure, but I CAN deduce that James Williams would NOT authorize just any good 'ol boy to teach his ryu-ha.. Ther must be something, at least, to his kenjutsu...

[aikihazen]

I been studying Japanese Martials Arts for over a coons age and I still don't know my Kami's or other Japanese Phrases very well. The fact that Sensei Williams is on the homepage and that there are no outlandish "10th Dan International Soke of the Year Award" Shihan's in thier late 20's or early 30's is ok by me.

Having met Sensei William's I would also agree he does not throw his image or associations around lightly. If you're not a Real Deal he would not even acknowledge your existance. LOL

[paul manogue]

Well as Rick has been a student of mine in Yagyu shin kage ryu for quite a while, I feel I should defend him.

Rick is a well rounded, high quality martial artist and a long time student of many disiplines.

Also, about the Mcdojo comment, Rick is not a full time martial arts instructor, he has a day job like most of us, a family, help his boys in the scouts, and chooses to spend his free time sharing the arts he has studied. The river of life facility is a great idea, and a costly one, The dojo may be a bit over decorated, but its a beutiful space, in a beutiful area, full of dedicated budoka with an instructor with a pure heart.

I have personally razzed him about the photo of the red T shirt with the hakama, and so has James Williams. But, although Rick studies under both of us, we dont tell him what to do, he had a dojo and a group when I met him, and I assume he had it when he met James also. For those of us who have studied in Japan, or speak the language, the strange kanji usage as well as the pegasus are odd, but there are plenty of groups that have worse.

[P Goldsbury]

I have had some correspondence with James Williams about this thread and he has looked at it. It is not his site, of course, but I believe that there is a posssibility of some changes to the site.

EDIT: I have just looked at the site and some changes have indeed been made. The kanji has disappeared, as has the picture of James Williams. Nami-ryu has a separate link.

SECOND EDIT: I will shortly move this thread to another part of the forum. In my opinion as moderator, it has ceased to be baffling budo.

[Onmitsu]

Now, if one wants bad kanji, dodgy "Japanese", and a history fishy as all get-out, check out this site (http://martialpaths.com/).

Ahh...why do these guys always have to be local to me? :cry:

[Tom Karazozis]

I would just like to conclude here by saying that I have found my answer and I now know where he got his "Koga-Yamabushi-ryu" thingy.

http://www.duxryuninjitsu.com/

"Koga-Yamabushi (Koga mountain warrior) society. From which the infamous Ninja descended as well as the modern day Yakuza and Kampai Tai -- Japan’s organized crime and intelligence services."

Some great historical facts here people, but hey!, they're all nice guys, right? Elvis looked somewhat like a nice guy, but look at what happened here http://www.moreenergy.com/elvis_black_belt.jpg I'm all shook up!

The only thing that's left now is to find out where these coded(well I can't call them Kanji cause they're not)scribbled characters came from. http://www.yrjj.net Maybe they are secret "Koga-Yamabushi-ryu" characters used by the modern day yakuza and kampai tai to brainwash humanity and enable them to take over the world!

Look, I admire your humble attitudes toward defending this guy and his website, but all this 'he has kids and works and doesn't live in Japan and bla bla' excuses won't convince me, sorry. This is no-doubt "Baffling-Budo". Plus, 100$ per month for Nami ryu classes, no but have they gone mad man! Why is it ridiculously more expensive than any Legit Koryu in Japan?

[P Goldsbury]

Of course, draw your own conclusions. This is a forum, after all. However, the website you gave in your very first post in this thread has been changed.

Best wishes,

[Lance Gatling]

Ahh...why do these guys always have to be local to me? :cry:

It's not baffling budo, it's budo economics.

Could it be because you live in a huge metropolitan area with plenty of phonies, wannabes, empty strip mall spaces, and enough surplus cash and naive beginners to keep the whole process going for the foreseeable future? With competition, plus sky-high insurance rates because of inept instruction and a litigious society, and it's a wonder anyone can do anything for less than $500/month.

Which actually helps to ensure there's a deficit of decent, honest instruction around, by making it tough to make a reasonable profit, much less a living, without jazzing up the resume to hyperdrive lie mode, or engaging in the outright fabrication of entire universes of mythology.

Some of the bozos dreaming up these 'lineages' and 'martial arts histories' have imaginations that rival Tolkien's. Pre-internet and modern communications, it was understandable how these lies could hold up, but it is now often a matter of faith versus reality or documented research. In this sense fora like e-budo play a great role, when combined with some decent independent research.

I have an economic theory about this, will polish off the draft someday and submit to the moderator for a sanity check. It should be right up his alley.

[James Williams]

Tom,

I am in Japan as we speak. I will travel to Iwai to train with Kuroda Tetsuzan for 5 days and then I will be back in Tokyo teaching JDF SOG for three days. I do however have a couple of extra days in Tokyo. I would love to come to where you train and see what you are learning and what kind of skill that you have. I am an old fashioned guy, what you are studying doesn't matter, whether you can type or not is really not that important, it is what you can do that matters.

Actually Nami ryu dojo fees at the Hombu dojo are $120 per month. I think that everyone might like to know what you can do for the money that you happen to be spending. So here is your chance to post where and when you train. I will be happy to show up at your dojo and you can show me.

Please don't come up with the " while you may be a good fighter but you don't understand the deeper meaning of the art" line. In the real world, and the one that the Samurai lived in, the ability to do was what mattered.

Towards the end of his life Musashi lamented the fact that the Shogunate had outlawed dueling. He said that it was the end of true kenjutsu. I cannot imagine what he would think of all of the opinions posted in Cyber Space. Since you are such a concerned citizen, and you felt a need to bring me into this, now you have. It is time to put up.

I may not have internet access after today however you can post the information here, one of my students will call me and let me know. I will private message you my Japanese cell number and we can set up another place and date if your class times do not fit into my existing schedule. If you have time to spend researching on the internet I am certain that you can find time for me.

Peter I hope that you don't mind this post. I am not an aikidoka and have a much different outlook and prime directive.

Sincerely,

James

[P Goldsbury]

Hello James,

Ohisashiburi desu! Yokoso Nihon e!

I am glad you have found the time to participate in this thread. Many thanks.

Even as an aikidoka, I have no problem whatever with your post or its contents.

Best wishes,

PAG

[Jack Chen]

" while you may be a good fighter but you don't understand the deeper meaning of the art"

LOL, someone once said something similar to me about 2 months ago.

[Mark Murray]

I don't see why this should be in baffling budo. I didn't see anything about sokes, grandfathers, or claim to some unknown heritage. Nothing there, that I could see, that tried to deceive anyone.

IMO,
Mark

[Rick Robinson]

Gentlemen-

What is Yamabushi ryu?

It is a school of Ju Jitsu, which I begen to study in 1959 at the local YMCA, where I received my junior black belt after six years at the age of 12. I have, since that time studied Ju Jitsu under different instructors and different styles throughout my lifetime. I have also studied different martial arts in which I have received dan level ranking. I began to study sword arts in the mid '70s and continue to study them to this day.

At the River of Life Martial Arts and Wellness Center I teach Ju Jitsu but also use kickboxing and kata for physical fitness and improvement of concentration and coordination. I also teach the Ken Jutsu art that I have been given permission to teach. At the center we use tameshigiri to see how well our techniques work to cut, and because we enjoy doing so.

I will admit that my caligraphy left much to be desired, that is why I removed it from my site. The flying horse, which was simply a silkscreen I made that my students at the time liked, has also been removed. The Kami za that you find so garish was designed and built by my partner, myself and several of the students by hand and will remein.

I, also, admit that Frank was my friend in the mid '70s and we keep in touch today.

Tom, if you have the opportunity to visit the Philadelphia area, I would welcome you as my guest in my home and/or dojo and I would welcome the opportunity to train with you.

You will find me at 321 Morris Road in Fort Washington, Pennsyvania and you may reach me through my website, which I beleive you already are familiar.

All the best...

Richard Robinson
Ju Jitsu instructor, Yamabushi ryu at the River Of Life Martial Arts and Wellness Center

[P Goldsbury]

Mr Robinson,

Many thanks for coming to E-Budo and responding to this thread.

As I intimated earlier, I am moving this thread out of Baffling Budo. The immediate destination is the Gendai Budo forum.

[gcarson]

I just wanted to say Wow.

People who are willing to step up and back up everything they say on their sites, and all the other people linked to the site then do the same thing....no excuses, no BS, just straight up Budo Spirit.

Wow.

<Bows low and very sincerely>

[elder999]

Tom,
Since you are such a concerned citizen, and you felt a need to bring me into this, now you have. It is time to put up.

I

sniff!...smells like a nice warm cup of shut the **** up to me.....:laugh:

[roninseb]

All I have to say is that it is very sad and hilarious at the same time.

When you really think about it the sad part is that James Williams actually challenges Tom in some form of a duel or match and that is quite sad. Since James is the grandmaster of whatever Ryu he has created and that is just fine BUT what is really somehow showing his lack of knowledge and just complete understanding of Budo is his machismo approach in the fact that he wants to meet up with him. Meet up to do what Duel? Challenge what? My god if he had any sense of Budo decency he would not challenge Tom since if his ryu is that great he would not need to challenge such a petty person like Tom.

Now for the Hilarious part. The hilarious part is that you also have some people that will support this challenge thing etc.. What is wrong with those people? Well again just machismo and a sheer misconception about what Budo is. Now I cannot help but feel very disgusted at what James Williams just spitted out but this is not surprising also considering his made up ryu.

Indeed Tom was rough on James but this is his opinion and whether you like it or not this is just an opinion and does not warrant any challenges of the type we have seen. As far as I am concerned Budo is supposed to elevate us to a higher level of human behavior and not lower us to cheap Yakuza style dojo yabure or maybe this is juts what Nami ryu is we never know it could just be a form of 赤首武道.

[Tom Karazozis]

I had a feeling it would end up like this. Why is it that everytime someone states his opinion about these inaccurate funky dojo, it always ends up by them coming back and saying 'Well, why don't you come here or I come there and kick your ass because I know my stuff is controversial and I really can't prove it in any way other than kicking your ass'? It somehow proves that you easily get agitated by someone that casts aspersions on your own mess of things.


I would love to come to where you train and see what you are learning and what kind of skill that you have. I am an old fashioned guy, what you are studying doesn't matter, whether you can type or not is really not that important, it is what you can do that matters.

Yes, "YOU" would probably like it, but the Sensei that owns the Dojo wouldn't. He is somewhat oversuspicious of strangers stepping in his dojo.

I knew alot of 'Old fashioned guys' that actually went through alot in wars and such, and never went on trying to prove their macho skills or what they can 'do'. And by the way, what does, "it is what you can do that matters", mean to you? Does it mean showing that your some type of skillful 'warrior' that can beat people to a pulp? because seriously, it can mean many things and you can 'DO' better things than playing samurai in your own little fantasy world, running around challenging people in a duel.



Please don't come up with the " while you may be a good fighter but you don't understand the deeper meaning of the art" line.

What gave you the intention that I would ever state an answer like that? Here, let me answer this for you, 'because I'm living in a Samurai fantasy bubble'. And how can I know that you are a 'good fighter', do you look at yourself in this way? EGO TRIP!!! Also, if you thought that I would of answered you in this way, than that means that you have proposed these duels to others in the past.



In the real world, and the one that the Samurai lived in, the ability to do was what mattered.

Here we go again...




Towards the end of his life Musashi lamented the fact that the Shogunate had outlawed dueling. He said that it was the end of true kenjutsu. I cannot imagine what he would think of all of the opinions posted in Cyber Space.

Sorry but, I'm long past idoling Musashi and his 'words of wisdom'. Don't get me wrong, the gorin no sho was ok, and I am a fan of his paintings but, I don't really admire someone that goes off and kills and duels(and this is if all these duels were really true) or has the intention to do so, just so he can prove his skills. I'd rather read or study what these warriors were reading and studying, instead of what they wrote.




Since you are such a concerned citizen, and you felt a need to bring me into this, now you have. It is time to put up.

Yes, I brought you into this because you were connected with this Yamabushi ryu, that's all. 'It is time to put up'? what is this jail? that sounded really fruity to me.



I will private message you my Japanese cell number and we can set up another place and date if your class times do not fit into my existing schedule. If you have time to spend researching on the internet I am certain that you can find time for me.

Research!? what research? I typed two words on google and there it was(Yamabushi ryu), on the third page.

Sorry, I have a life here Mr. williams. I have to work, raise kids, train as much as I can, study bukkyo and get neked in roten-buros on Mt. Azuma! I have no time to go running around in the fields of Japan dueling with you, risking the condition of getting arrested and deported.




Peter I hope that you don't mind this post. I am not an aikidoka and have a much different outlook and prime directive.

Actually, by checking your backround, you actually are an aikidoka, everthing is aiki aiki aiki. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

peace.

[Tom Karazozis]

Oh, one more thing. My ranting was not about 'My Dojo/style/tradition is better than yours', it was about how all these made up, modern, Japanese stemmed ryu are all leading Japanese sword arts in the wrong direction and will end up becoming like what Karate has now turned in. Why mix and match names, and try to invent some new sword style, when the true use of the sword ended a long time ago, and wars are no longer fought with swords. Why not study and learn a tradition that is still preserved in Japan, get a solid understanding of it, keep it inside of you without changing any names and maybe later on teach it to who ever wants to profoundly learn. How can you invent a sword style when you have been learning with Mr. Kuroda on and off since 1999? What gives you the right to change names and traditions especially when the sword is no longer used to fight these days? This means that all of the people that have been learning sword arts in and out of Japan for long periods of time, without changing the style's name and without deluting its traditions are wasting their time, they should all go out invent their own names and styles and change everything that ended in the Meiji restoration. I seriously think that you are on an ego trip. These traditions ended and were, and still are, preserved today. They should not be changed because you cannot do that with sword arts. If you do it, it becomes 'kurootee'. This will be my final post in this thread. Good luck, bye.

[Joseph Svinth]

Somehow, I doubt that this will be your last posting on the subject.

[Lance Gatling]

All I have to say is that it is very sad and hilarious at the same time.

When you really think about it the sad part is that James Williams actually challenges Tom in some form of a duel or match and that is quite sad. ......

Don't know if Mr. Williams meant to (did?) actually issue a challenge to a real live 'let's swing swords at each other' duel, or a 'show me what you got' competition (who'd judge? me asks.... I woulda cut you first! Yeah, but mine was deeper! my brothers and I used to do that with cane poles, but we were 10ish at the time) but any 2 foreigners that would actually get together to duel in Japan would have to be deranged.

IANAL, but just uttering a serious challenge involving bodily harm in Japan is probably enough to get yourself deported as an undesirable alien, permanently barred from reentry. The cops have a monopoly on violence in Japan, and you ignore that only at great risk.

There is a 'gentleman' here that threatened me a couple of times (he has a serious drinking problem, and I ran into him at social functions involving alcohol) so I asked a senior Japanese cop bud about it. My cop friend said whatever you do, just don't give into the temptation to break him (we play judo together...), you can't imagine the endings, all bad for you. Walk away, run away, whatever it takes to escape the situation. If he corners you let him beat on you a while before you break anything, and even then you'd better have witnesses that like you more than him. And then don't kill him, even if he deserves it, just make him stop.

The Japanese value control / restraint above most traits, and getting into fights is all about losing control.

Many years ago I was told by some Japanese officials there was an American gent who styled himself a rough tough karateka. Seems he got in an altercation with someone in a bar, one thing leads to another, they step outside, other guy swings. Karateka pops him once in the side of the head with a high kick, other guy goes down, smacks his stupid head on a curb. Dies.

Karateka's defense was 'he swung first, I was just defending myself.'

Judge says something to the effect that, listen, moron, this is not a common law country, you violated about a half dozen civil code laws just getting to the point of the fight - and we don't really consider mitigating circumstances, ya know? Anyhow, if you really knew what you were doing in karate you'd have never gotten in this situation in the first place, or would have controlled the situation so as to not harm another person, because that's what real karate entails.

You killed him. You're guilty. Go to prison now.

(I believe that if the subject of Musashi's duels had come up, a knowledgable judge would've pointed out that duels were illegal in his time, too, and if he'd run afoul of the law, they could've tortured him to death for his troubles. and then there was katakiuchi, the revenge slaying. Most of Musashi's duels were in his youth when the Tokugawa regime was still settling in - if he'd pulled that stuff later, he'd probably have been executed by the authorities and we'd never have his art to enjoy.)

Karate boy got 25 years or so, IIRC. If he lives, he should be out any year now, then they'll deport him forever. Meanwhile the prison cops have probably made his life hell on earth just because he is an idiot furriner karateka that killed a local boy, drunk.

Cheers,

[ZachZinn]

Oh, one more thing. My ranting was not about 'My Dojo/style/tradition is better than yours', it was about how all these made up, modern, Japanese stemmed ryu are all leading Japanese sword arts in the wrong direction and will end up becoming like what Karate has now turned in. Why mix and match names, and try to invent some new sword style, when the true use of the sword ended a long time ago, and wars are no longer fought with swords. Why not study and learn a tradition that is still preserved in Japan, get a solid understanding of it, keep it inside of you without changing any names and maybe later on teach it to who ever wants to profoundly learn. How can you invent a sword style when you have been learning with Mr. Kuroda on and off since 1999? What gives you the right to change names and traditions especially when the sword is no longer used to fight these days? This means that all of the people that have been learning sword arts in and out of Japan for long periods of time, without changing the style's name and without deluting its traditions are wasting their time, they should all go out invent their own names and styles and change everything that ended in the Meiji restoration. I seriously think that you are on an ego trip. These traditions ended and were, and still are, preserved today. They should not be changed because you cannot do that with sword arts. If you do it, it becomes 'kurootee'. This will be my final post in this thread. Good luck, bye.


A poor argument in general for maintaining an overly "traditional" attitude. I've seen some compelling arguments against change, but honestly they don't resemble anything you've said here.

Btw I like Kurotee. Also the problems in Karate today would not IMO be fixed by people trying to out-orthodox one another, all you need to do is look at all the infighting in traditional karate circles to see this.

[Maro]

Whlist I'm sure Mr Williams didn't intend it to read as such, it does come across as a challenge in writing.

Does E-Budo sanction that?

[Lance Gatling]

Whlist I'm sure Mr Williams didn't intend it to read as such, it does come across as a challenge in writing.

Does E-Budo sanction that?

There's a 'Caution' symbol top right of the text box, presumably to flag for the moderator.

[Maro]

I'm not really interested in the Politics of the situation. I do however think that intent can be read from the post.

It would be sad if that attitude is supported in an online forum.

[Jeff Cook]

In the past it has not been supported or condoned by E-budo. it appears there are different rules for different people. As long as the mods remain silent on this, we will be left to make assumptions.

Jeff Cook

[roninseb]

Well what seems a bit strange to me to begin with is that the comments of Mr. Williams seem to have been supported by one of the mods on this thread. To me this is quite disturbing.

Now maybe James Williams will come back on what he wrote saying that this is not what he meant and this could very well be. But the fact of the matter is that even if it was not his intent to challenge Tom it was badly written to begin with and lead many others to think the same thing.

And even if it was not a challenge I feel that the whole let me show my Budo and show me yours type of a deal also screams of bad taste and would never be accepted in any respectable Dojo in or outside Japan since this type of quarrelling is just not acceptable especially saying that he wanted to go to Tom’s Dojo etc…

This just shows how little Mr. Williams truly knows about Budo or even Japanese culture in general. Since by just implying a duel challenge or just a hey let me show you my stuff at your dojo would have caused great troubles to Tom his family and also his teacher in Japan. I guess Mr. Williams just had too much pride and felt agitated and needed to prove his thing in some way.

Lets face it there is nothing to prove when it comes to Koryu since many Koryu that are extant today come from different era and also have been modified with time to an extant where comparing challenging etc is futile. Stuff like this can only be important to individuals like James Williams who created their OWN SELF MADE ancestral tradition this is as bad as any other person that has done so in the past and that have been passed trough the baffling budo. The only reason why this was never brought out is because James Williams DOES have skills and this is undeniable but although he can cut and twist arms his school is still a made up one based on his own assumptions and this in the end has nothing to do with promoting true martial ways skills alone are meaningless.

In my own opinion there is no reason why he had to do his own Ryu especially when he has no tangible credentials/grading from a Koryu to create his own school. If he was such a scholar on Japanese martial ways he should be able to speak and read Japanese and his whole discourse would be more tangible than for example basing his long tsuka thing on a couple of pictures woodblock prints or a couple of swords that people found that had a long handle. It really baffles me that some people will even remotely believe that stuff especially when at least 95% of all swords in Japanese history that are extant today either unaltered or modified do not fit what he claims.

Also what gets to me is the whole nationalistic paramilitary anti terrorist feel to his whole approach and this is what makes his Budo full of bad taste. He should grow out of his military experience and just concentrate on Budo if this is what he thinks is so important to him or just stay at what he does best which is military training and not just use Budo as a marketing tool for his whole modern warrior package nonsense thing.

[P Goldsbury]

As the moderator of the thread when it was in the Baffling Budo forum, I did not construe the post made by Mr Williams in any way as a challenge to Mr Karazozis. Perhaps I have lived in Japan for too long, but I assumed that any encounter here would be less a challenge than a chance to clarify matters not yet clarified in a web discussion.

One of the problems in a website such as this is that people sometimes read into the evidence rather more than is there.

Finally, if people want to discuss the way threads are moderated here, they should do so via private mail and not in a forum with a different subject matter.

[Mark Murray]

Well what seems a bit strange to me to begin with is that the comments of Mr. Williams seem to have been supported by one of the mods on this thread. To me this is quite disturbing.


First, a correction. The only moderator on this thread is Mark F. Feigenbaum. People like me (a moderator, but on another forum) have no powers here in this forum at all. We are, essentially, like other people, who also have opinions. As for support, did you ask that moderator if he truly supported what you perceived as coming from Mr. Williams? In other words, are you elaborating on what something "seems like" rather than on what is true?



Now maybe James Williams will come back on what he wrote saying that this is not what he meant and this could very well be. But the fact of the matter is that even if it was not his intent to challenge Tom it was badly written to begin with and lead many others to think the same thing.


We all write badly at some point or another. We all have bad days. We all let emotions cloud our writing at some point. I don't know Mr. Williams, so I really can't say how the post was intended. And I let the forum admins decide that (Which was Mr. Goldsbury and is now Mr. Feigenbaum).



And even if it was not a challenge I feel that the whole let me show my Budo and show me yours type of a deal also screams of bad taste and would never be accepted in any respectable Dojo in or outside Japan since this type of quarrelling is just not acceptable especially saying that he wanted to go to Tom’s Dojo etc…


Huh? So, if it's not a challenge, what's wrong with the I'll show you mine if you show me yours? I've specifically gone to other seminars just to see other styles. I've gone to meet people who were labelled, well irritating is a mild representation, but turned out to be great people. What's written is never the same as what's reality.

I've said it before. Whatever emotion that a reader gets from reading words on a screen comes 100%, completely from the reader and 0% percent from the writer. Words on a screen are nothing more than electrons and convey no emotion. All emotion is created from the reader.



Stuff like this can only be important to individuals like James Williams who created their OWN SELF MADE ancestral tradition this is as bad as any other person that has done so in the past and that have been passed trough the baffling budo.


I didn't see any fake histories created from the website. I saw no grandmaster sokes on the website. I saw no deceiving attributes on the website. Nothing that ties it with other baffling/bad budo at all.

IMO,
Mark

[Jeff Cook]

I just thought I would repeat what Mr. Williams posted:

"Peter I hope that you don't mind this post. I am not an aikidoka and have a much different outlook and prime directive."

Why would he question anyone minding it, and make a reference/comparison to aikidoka, if his intentions were purely benign? Following his "time to put up" comment with this remark seems rather....blatant.

Note: I am not questioning the moderation of the thread; I am openly questioning a comment made in an open forum.

Jeff Cook

[Maro]

It's quite a serious thing to say and it's not about questioning the Moderator's decision. Going to a Seminar to compare styles is a lot different to typing that on an open forum.

There are at least 4 people that have read it the "wrong" way. More than a coincidence I'd say.

[P Goldsbury]

I just thought I would repeat what Mr. Williams posted:

"Peter I hope that you don't mind this post. I am not an aikidoka and have a much different outlook and prime directive."

Why would he question anyone minding it, and make a reference/comparison to aikidoka, if his intentions were purely benign? Following his "time to put up" comment with this remark seems rather....blatant.

Note: I am not questioning the moderation of the thread; I am openly questioning a comment made in an open forum.

Jeff Cook

There has also been a private correspondence between Mr Williams and myself about this thread (as a moderator of E-Budo, I often have such correspondence). This is probably one reason why, though it is made in the forum, the last remark is addressed to me. I did not jump to any conclusions about his intentions in referring to me as an aikidoka. I was also given the option of editing Mr Williams' post if I chose. Since I intended to move the thread from Baffling Budo to another forum, I chose not to.

Best wishes,

[Josh Reyer]

I believe James Williams meant his post very much as a challenge. A bit ridiculous to take it as a challenge to a duel, though, reference to Musashi notwithstanding.

[Jeff Cook]

:laugh: I certainly didn't take it has a challenge to dueling with katana's before sun-up in the graveyard!

Peter, I am glad he has clarified to you in personal correspondence. It would certainly be classy though if he cleared up the misunderstanding with the guy his post was directed towards. Especially since his post was public and has left an impression with a number of people, who have not even posted here (yes, I too receive PM's ;) ) that his post appears to be calling the target of his ire out on the mat for a little rough-and-tumble "corrective conversation."

Perception is reality, and I am afraid your friend is suffering, rightly or wrongly, from a negative perception he has left with many. I am ONLY being blunt here because YOU are an honorable and respectable man, and you believe his intentions are pure. Otherwise I would just chalk this up to another ego-maniac with his panties in a wad, angry because he got caught with his panties around his ankles. More importantly, your friend may have left himself legally vulnerable with his public statements. He is currently visiting a country that is quite sensitive to the appearance of threatened violence, and in this case it is directed at someone who actually lives in that country. I suggest he clarify this publicly, to cover his butt.

Please don't think this is an attack on you or him; I am only pointing out how this appears, before this escalates. It is noble of you to defend his intentions; he would best serve you as a friend - and himself - if he himself would clarify this.

Jeff Cook

[gcarson]

Well,

I accept that my personal perspective on what 'Budo' is and how it should be practiced doesn't jive with everyone's, and maybe I am out in left field on this issue, however....

Tom said (in post #18)

" if James williams had any tangible or concrete knowledge of Japanese tradition or Koryu Bujutsu, he would of corrected all this goofy crap "

To me, that says "If he doesn't do things the way I would, his doesn't know anything and is completely ignorant/without skill". There are several other things along these lines as well.

So when James says 'put up or shut up' everyone gets their panties in a bunch??

Well if you want to question a website content or accuracy, thats fine. But when you start attacking someone (who was a guest not the owner I might add) without any provocation from that person, should you not expect a similar responce?

I personally am happy to see someone say :
If you think I suck and know nothing, then show me how much you know/can do so that I have a way to quantify what you base your opinion on.

It came off as calling him on the mats....well good. I'm tired of the endless list of people who will slander and verbally hammer people on forums but never step up from behind their keyboards when they have the chance to do so.

Some people have a more 'aggresive' take on what Budo spirit is....I guess its a matter of what percentage you put into Bu and what into Do. But no one owns "THE" right way of it.....and the condescending comments about 'proper' or 'real' budo aren't necessary. If you think his physical practice sucks, step up and show him. If you just disagree with his philosophy, well, thats pretty academic since there is no established, accepted 'right' way...

[Jeff Cook]

Well, yet again we have "questions about something questionable" - which ebudo is well-known to be available for - being labeled as an "attack" on the person being asked.

Yet obviously some of the questions served a valuable purpose, as evidenced by a website being changed.

A perception has been created. Hand-wringing, spin, and counter-accusations as to the imagined motives of the questioner certainly are not going to change that perception.

If Mr. Williams has been slandered as stated in the above post, that certainly is NOT excusable, and should definitely be addressed. "Slander" has a distinct legal definition. Slander is illegal. It seems that a poster or two has been accused of violating civil law. What untruthful statements were made? Those certainly should be addressed, and furthermore, if someone has made untruthful statements they should probably be banned from this board, as that is a clear and serious violation of the terms of use.

I can only find opinions here though - not statements of fact, except for those statements of fact that caused a website to be changed, and thus improved through the correction of some errors.

If someone has been incorrectly called a "slanderer" here, that in itself could be considered slander, and is a violation of this board's rules also. Not only that, but owners of boards that allowed slander to occur and stand visible to the public have been successfully sued. It just keeps getting better and better....

Greg, in a way I DO agree with much of your post above. We all have a tendency to defend when we are questioned in a hostile way, and I DO think some of the questions have been presented in a way that has not been very conducive to a peaceful and reasonable discourse. Naturally, the responses to those hostile inquiries and subsequent hostile responses are just going to continue to snowball and escalate, and then a mess is created.

Hopefully someone will just close the damn thread since this has progressed past the point of being able to be effectively moderated.

Jeff Cook

[gcarson]

Well, yet again we have "questions about something questionable" - which ebudo is well-known to be available for - being labeled as an "attack" on the person being asked.

Sorry Jeff but that is not what I said. Tom was originally asking about the Yamabushi-Ryu website, but then suddenly swerved sideways and launched several unpleasant attacks on Mr.Williams and his training, which then became the focus somehow. Considering that the website in question and the dojo related to it are not part of Mr.Williams school or association, I am labelling the first question a question....and all the attacks as exactly that.

By all means, the original site had its flaws, and they have been addressed...yay for e-budo! BUT...the band wagon of flaming Williams was more than unnecessary and harsh. It is however an online forum so I expect some of that. But then he defends himself and offers a face->face resolution to his most vocal critic and everyone screams bloody murder.

To the Original Focus of the thread :
ANYONE outside of the priesthood of Shugendo using the term Yamabushi - I don't like it and consider it to be in poor taste. The other 'cosmetic' aspects were not an issue to me. Obviously if things are not being presented honestly, that is an issue, but that didn't seem to clearly be the case.

With that said, I agree with your final statement Jeff. The thread is mostly dead in regards to its original topic. Perhaps if Mr.Williams is considered bad/baffling budo by some, they should start a thread with him as the focus and list their concerns.

[Jeff Cook]

Greg, I don't have a dog in this yamabushi fight, whatever it is about. I could care less. I am reading this as someone who is not familiar with anything or anybody mentioned here. The thread is confusing. I am only addressing what appears to be a challenge, and I thought I was doing a reasonable thing by politely pointing out what the perception is, in the hope that something would be done to correct that perception.

Tom did not "swerve sideways;" Tom, the apparent target of most of the ire here (perhaps I have misread that as well), was not the one who brought up Mr. Williams. Somebody else brought him up. Apparently there is some sort of relationship or tie-in to Yamabushi; it is hard to tell from this rather contentious and contorted thread. But after someone ELSE brought it up, Tom started asking questions about him too. I would say that is normal thread drift, not some attempt to take one questionable situation to try to smear somebody totally unrelated to it.

What exactly IS the relationship between yamabushi and Mr. Williams (a rhetorical question at this point - please don't answer)? If there is none, then why the hell hasn't someone clearly stated that, stick to that message, and be done with this nonsense? And if there has been another issue brought up (i.e. whatever the questions are about Mr. Williams), instead of suggesting to a member in a rather petulant way (not you Greg) to start a new topic about Mr. Williams, the moderators can use the thread-splitting function and handle it themselves! But they obviously don't want THAT to happen, for some reason....

Also, since the moderators seem to be strenuously objecting to questions being asked about Mr. Williams (the only rational reason I can think of for them not splitting the thread), then why did they not lock the damn thread down before allowing it to get to this point??? Is it because they are afraid of the appearance of favoritism? I really don't know and I am reluctant to make that accusation, but it would be nice for ALL involved, including Mr. Williams, if a moderator would just sack-up and take action, in a way that does not make the situation worse than it already is!

Let me be perfectly blunt, since my previous suggestions have not been taken as being very polite anyway. Peter, I unfortunately have changed my mind about the moderation of this thread. It sucks. For God's sake, will SOMEBODY take the high-road and try to clear up this mess, or at the very least, shut down the thread before these good people are embarrassed further?

I hope everyone is having a good weekend.

Jeff Cook

[Woody]

Let me be perfectly blunt, since my previous suggestions have not been taken as being very polite anyway. Peter, I unfortunately have changed my mind about the moderation of this thread. It sucks. For God's sake, will SOMEBODY take the high-road and try to clear up this mess, or at the very least, shut down the thread before these good people are embarrassed further?

I hope everyone is having a good weekend.

Jeff Cook
Hello Jeff,
If you want a thread to die, just let it go peacefully into the night.
Hope your weekend is well also.

[Josh Reyer]

What mess? Mr. Cook, four of the last nine posts have been by yourself. I don't really see the issue here. Mr. Williams obviously stands by his comments. Mr. Karazosis has made his response. Some feel Mr. Williams was over the top. Others feel they were appropriate to Mr. Karazosis's comments. You apparently feel one way, but the people in charge here feel differently. End of story.

[MarkF]

You're right, Jeff, moderation does suck and I take responsability for it. I have to remember to leave word in admin.. when I am not going to be around for a while, but I didn't this time.

The person who posted the topic post asked to have this moved right off, and it should have been. If you would rather do this, start another thread there, but I will not saddle another mod with an out-of-hand thread.

If you want to open another thread to discuss this matter here, please feel free, but try to moderate yourselves. It doesn't take much to put a thread such as this back on the straight and narrow. If y'll wish, you may open one in baffling budo, too.

Thanks for taking note of where this thread was heading.


Mark