Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi outside Japan [Archive]

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ichibyoshi

5th November 2007, 10:16

Prompted by this post from Lance Gatling over in the lounge (re Dai Nippon Butokukai)

{snip}There are many organizations that claim the right to award these traditional titles (including organizations in the US without benefit of even being exposed to Japan in decades) but I understand that that only a few, including the Kendo Federation and IMAF, actually have permission from members of the Imperial family. Notably the Karatedo and Judo organizations do not grant titles.
{snip}
But at least the DNBK has some claim to legitimacy in this area, if it in fact has a claim to the heritage and tradition of the old DNBK. While I'm not Japanese, from what I gather, to most the notion that some organization outside Japan is granting traditional, honorary, Imperial era, anachronistic Japanese titles is beyond laughable. Ranks up there with ninja fantasies, I reckon...

The All Japan Kendo Federation recently announced a policy of allowing (not sure if that implies encouraging) affiliated foreign kendo renmei to award their own Shogo, i.e. Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi. I believe this applies to people practicing iaido and jodo under AJKF/FIK affiliation as well, not just kendoka.

Now in kendo, it's usually the case that Renshi is awarded sometime after 6 dan, Kyoshi sometime after 7 dan and Hanshi sometimes after 8 dan (the only 7 dan Hanshi I ever heard of is Benjamin Hazard sensei from the US, and I don't know the story behind that, but would love to).

In the "old days", like, more than 2 years ago, I believe a Shogo title was something that came to you out of the blue: think Grace, or the man with the big "This is Your Life" book. My sensei was awarded Kyoshi sometime after 7 dan with the proverbial tap on the shoulder (he's Japanese btw). He wasn't, I don't think, a Renshi while 6 dan although I might be wrong.

Anyway now there is a suggested procedure (by the AJKF) for foreign kendo renmei as to how people may apply for Shogo when they have reached the minimum requirements in terms of time in grade, years spent teaching, etc. Their application is then scrutinised by an appropriately formulated board of examiners, some of whom are senior practitioners, some of whom are senior exectutives in the renmei.

I was unaware of how this might appear in Japan, but Lance's post gave me one side. Certainly it does seem problematic at best, potentially destructive to the credibility of the title at worst. However there it is. The ZenKenRen have said you can do it. Maybe even that you should do it. They've already given the go ahead to foreigners awarding themselves 8 dan. And for sure people want them (and besides, most Japanese not directly involved probably still think the idea of foreigners doing budo at all is laughable—certainly it seems the World Kendo Championships had little credibility in Japan until Japan lost).

But that's probably the biggest conundrum: if Shogo are in recognition of not your technical skills alone, but also your development as a person (ningen keisei), surely the people that want them are the ones who shouldn't have them and vice versa...

This is not a discussion about "should we have them or not", as they're already in place and happening. I suppose I'm just thinking out loud about it all. Maybe there's value in that I dunno.

b

ichibyoshi

5th November 2007, 12:34

In the "old days", like, more than 2 years ago, I believe a Shogo title was something that came to you out of the blue: think Grace, or the man with the big "This is Your Life" book. My sensei was awarded Kyoshi sometime after 7 dan with the proverbial tap on the shoulder (he's Japanese btw).

Apologies for quoting myself. When I said "out of the blue" I should have made clear that meant "if you were a Japanese practitioner in Japan."

b

Michael Hodge

5th November 2007, 13:37

While I'm not Japanese, from what I gather, to most the notion that some organization outside Japan is granting traditional, honorary, Imperial era, anachronistic Japanese titles is beyond laughable.

I'd rather think all titles fall into that category regardless of the country that grants them. Titles only serve to elevate and separate people from the next man. Not entirely keen on the idea m'self.

Michael Hodge

Kim Taylor

5th November 2007, 19:35

Shogo titles in the kendo federation, specifically a federation that is not Japan are awarded, and are indeed awarded by the national organization.

You'll find some of the CKF information here: http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_forms.htm

Looks like we have some applicants eligible for renshi. No kyoshi tests this year.

Just flipping through the latest FIK guidelines here, there are some big jumps in grading panel requirements.... 8 dan and over (the guidelines go to 10dan by the way) is indeed received from the national organization, but so are all other ranks. The ZNKR has not sent panels outside of Japan to FIK affiliated countries for years now, and grading is definitely encouraged within your own organization. Judges can be brought in at need and with permission, from other countries to sit on a local panel but no matter what nationality the judges are, the grade comes from the national organization that constituted the panel.

There are specific guidelines from the KIF for 1-7dan but those are minimums and can be exceeded, as for instance here in Canada where we require 2 years between shodan and nidan. Below and above those ranks, the requirements are up to the individual country and only general guidelines are given.

Iaido and Jodo are treated exactly the same as Kendo with regard to times etc. Grading requirements vary of course and are set by the national federation.

Hmm no shogo mentioned, I thought I saw it in there. Regardless, shogo are given to iaido and jodo as well as kendo.

These titles do have some meaning, for instance there may be a cutoff for a seminar at renshi so if you have a 6dan but not a renshi you could not attend.

There is a real, very real and very distinct, meaning to hanshi.

Kim Taylor

Chidokan

5th November 2007, 19:47

Kim Taylor

5th November 2007, 20:30

I also think panels will/should be ultra careful in giving these out.. who wants a renshi title when you get laughed at behind your back for having one if you do not live up to the standard? Not sure if you can refuse one if offered, though I don't see why not...

Hi Tim, I suspect each federation is different but in Canada you have to apply for it so if you don't want it, don't apply.

Actually a few years ago it seemed to be something that was offered, and only then could you apply for it, I've never seen that application form before this year, but paperwork is likely a good idea if just to keep track of who's got one.

Regardless, even if you have such a title you don't use it, why would you?

I asked a few questions at the time the system was instituted and the answer I got was that you'd damned well better be active, involved, supporting and a benefit to the organization if you expect to be offered the chance to hand over $400 or more for a piece of paper you'll put in the bottom of a drawer and never mention again.

Sounds about right to me.

Further to the discussion that started this thread, and that I glanced through, there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding about the structure of the KIF in some comments about reserving grades or title awards to Japan... the KIF is horizontal not vertical, each country is "under" the KIF but equal in stature which means that Canada is the same as Japan. Of course we know what that and the price of a coffee will get you, but that's the paper structure, so ALL grades are awarded by the national organization which is responsible for maintaining standards or they are out of the KIF. One organization per country (except for historical exceptions like Hawaii).

This all has to do with the world kendo championships of course, the carrot, glue and stick that keeps it all together. But the upshot is that yes, shogo grades get handed out by "furrinners".

Kim Taylor

Kim Taylor

5th November 2007, 21:09

Dammit now I'm thinking about this instead of doing stuff that should be done.

SHOULD shogo be awarded at all? Sure why not? If they are part of the ranking/grading/teaching structure of an art, and the powers that be want that art to be world wide and to grow everywhere than yes of course you award them.

You award them to local people, you award them to gaijin unless you have some sort of idea that only Japanese in Japan are worthy of rank or title, but if you believed that you wouldn't be setting up international organizations would you? The question wouldn't come up.

If you want an art to be world wide and to grow, you make the assumption that foreigners can learn, teach, and be examples to their own students. You allow them the same system you have at home, when they're ready, they do.

Only foreign visitors to Japan who are immersed in the culture should be awarded titles by Japanese who can then properly assess their worthiness for the them?

Come on... anybody believe that one? How does it work when buddy goes back to his own country? Well from what I've seen many times, it doesn't work well. Buddy can't operate unless he's rich and can pop back and forth constantly to Japan, or he has to leave his sensei and invent his own organization with whatever credibility he can manage. In neither case does the art have much of a chance to become multi-generational without drifting far away from the roots or becoming a bit strange. As we say around here "There's none more Scots than the Scots abroad" and that goes double for converts (westerners who figure they're more Japanese than the Japanese).

I'll stick with "hey, here's the art, here's the organization, go look after yourself when you can, here's some guidelines, now come on back for competitions and seminars to make sure you're as good as we are". Seems more healthy to me.

So that's my reasoning as to why foreigners should award shogo.

Why should you accept it?

I dunno, why should you accept any rank at all? If you simply want to learn forever than of course you should not. Unfortunately most of us are younger than our sensei and we outlive them. Now we're alone and the other students who came after are all looking at us with big sheep eyes.

What's that Japanese word for someone who has been hanging around longer than we have... "been there, done that" something like that.

And what about poor old sensei who we've repaid by not grading for all those years, what must he think... oh yes right he doesn't think any more since he's dead, but I wonder what he thought on his deathbed besides "damn did I pay the gas bill". Did he say "well that was a waste of 30 years teaching that guy who never wanted to turn around and pass it along".

So one big reason to accept rank and titles might be to accept your responsibilities to sensei and the art. It's great if you don't have to sweep the floor, take out the trash and teach the kids, but eventually it does fall on you.

Even beyond all that though, how about "take the damned title and give the organization some money, there's bills to pay". I figure that might be reason enough in many cases.

At least for those who figure they should support the organization. For those who figure the organization should support them... well they don't take the title and pay the money.

Just some thoughts, now maybe I can get back to updating EJMAS.

Kim Taylor

Chidokan

6th November 2007, 01:42

Kim Taylor

6th November 2007, 02:34

Eric Spinelli

6th November 2007, 03:21

I must admit I always thought it was a case of 'hey, you are teaching now, we've watched you for a while and think you should get renshi for the effort you put in, (and it goes with your skill level as well by the way)'. More a sort of 'well done, keep it up' award for the top ranks who teach as well.... Didn't realise you actually applied a la dan grade system... I am going to go and have to read that link now aren't I...oh well, better than working during nightshift!!!:D

I just asked about this the other day. Apparently in Japan you apply in essay form; you need to write about iaido, the reasons for teaching it, and other things along those lines. If that is deemed acceptable, there is an actual test and both pieces are considered together.

On a side note, in the ZNKR (Japan) and the AUSKF (USA) you must be at least 5dan to put forth others for gradings. Unless you're the type to go around recommending others' students, this probably means you've got students of your own at this point. Why the big gap between 5dan and Renshi then? Apparently 5dan makes you a "local instructor," somebody with state or regional authority. 6dan and up (or is it 6th Renshi and up? I forget) makes you a "national instructor." At least that's the feeling in Japan from somebody who has 7dan Kyoshi.

Another interesting thing is that at some tournaments, the Kyoshi and Hanshi, even those both at 8dan, are separated for embu. Even if it's only a single person!

-Eric

Kim Taylor

6th November 2007, 18:42

On a side note, in the ZNKR (Japan) and the AUSKF (USA) you must be at least 5dan to put forth others for gradings. Unless you're the type to go around recommending others' students, this probably means you've got students of your own at this point. Why the big gap between 5dan and Renshi then? Apparently 5dan makes you a "local instructor," somebody with state or regional authority. 6dan and up (or is it 6th Renshi and up? I forget) makes you a "national instructor." At least that's the feeling in Japan from somebody who has 7dan Kyoshi.

Another interesting thing is that at some tournaments, the Kyoshi and Hanshi, even those both at 8dan, are separated for embu. Even if it's only a single person!

-Eric

5dan is the minimum to put people forward to grade in Canada (CKF) too. For iaido at least, 5dan is a pretty decent/rare grade and I don't imagine many 5dan would be without a club of their own plus a couple others they sign for. In Canada it's definitely a "regional" teaching grade and the 5dans do move from club to club to teach on their own. Just a function of what grades are floating around out there. Our few 6dans are definitely national in their scope.

(Looking again at the KIF guidelines and I don't actually see that 5dan = signing authority anywhere so I suppose it's either country by country, tradition (ie ZNKR does it), or in some other guidelines document.)

On the other hand, I get the distinct feeling that there aren't that many 5dan running their own dojo in Japan, likely not too many more at 6dan either so renshi is probably a much closer fit to "teacher" level in Japan than in the West on a purely practical level.

Kim Taylor

gendzwil

6th November 2007, 19:01

BTW that's "FIK" not "KIF", Kim.

Anyways, for Canada the CKF requires someone of 5 dan or up to be responsible for a club or to sign the application form for a grading. On the kendo side, 5 dan is reasonably common and those of us who have it consider ourselves club teachers or more often assistant teachers. For our annual seminar in Saskatoon, for example, the main instructor we invite is normally 7 dan, and we've been working our way through them all (Hao-sensei this year, BTW). We usually invite one or two junior instructors/national team members to help out, and they are typically 5 dan.

Kim Taylor

6th November 2007, 19:07

BTW that's "FIK" not "KIF", Kim.

Denny Crane, Mad Cow.... I still say seitei instead of zen ken ren iai too.

Had a hard enough time with IKF dammit.

Old

Kim Taylor

gendzwil

6th November 2007, 19:13

I still say seitei instead of zen ken ren iai too.Does anybody say "zen ken ren"?

Eric Spinelli

7th November 2007, 01:04

Does anybody say "zen ken ren"?

Japanese people?

gendzwil

7th November 2007, 13:08

I'm not all that connected with iaido, but I've only ever heard Japanese instructors here say "seitei iai". Maybe the new name is more commonly used elsewhere.

webjunkie401

8th November 2007, 05:14

Same here. The only time I've actually heard anyone call it Zen Ken Ren Iai is at official events (and then only sometimes) and in official publications from the Zen Ken Ren.

Lance Gatling

8th November 2007, 06:01

I'm not all that connected with iaido, but I've only ever heard Japanese instructors here say "seitei iai". Maybe the new name is more commonly used elsewhere.

I'm not a kendoka, but in the event of the ZenKenRen kendo kata, the kendo kata predates the ZKR itself by decades - developed by a group at the Butokukai. And was called the Dai Nippon Kendo Kata (Imperial or Greater Japan Kendo Kata). Still is, see below (if you don't read Japanese, take my word for it. They did drop the 'Imperial' bit after the war, you know....)

Here's a vid of Nakayama doing it, he was one of the committee members. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEk6LhI5BVU

Does the iai kata predate the ZKR? think it does. Might explain the common usage name versus formal name. With tons of different styles being discussed among practioners, seitai would likely be all they'd need to hear. I hear it today, and I'm not really listening for it. I think often Japanese say 'seitai' or 'koryu', because they'll know which koryu style internally they're discussing.

Brian Owens

8th November 2007, 08:14

Does anybody say "zen ken ren"?
Yeah, I've heard a few people use it, both those of Japanese descent and those of European descent, and usually at seminars or demonstrations that were open to multiple arts.

Within the dojo they usually said "seitei iai," "seiteigata," or just "seitei" when comparing it with koryu, for example; but I imagine if they said "seiteigata" at an open event, someone might say or think "Who's seiteigata?" So in those instances they would say "In ZenKenRen Iai we ..."

It's a lot easier using the appreviations than saying the full "In the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Iaido Seiteigata we ..."

"ZenKenRen" might be just common USA usage, though.

renfield_kuroda

8th November 2007, 13:49

Kim Taylor

8th November 2007, 17:51

I would turn this argument around and say, for koryu or at least arts founded before WWII, why give out dan rank? That's certainly at least as arbitrary and un-useful, no?
Back in the day, a shogo actually meant something. Whether it holds such meaning these days is as much a function of the art these days as it is the "meaning" assumed in the title.

Regards,

r e n

No title or rank has or ever had any real meaning beyond polite acceptance outside the issuing organization. I mean if someone in the ZNIR says "I'm an X-dan" I'll call them Y-sensei, or I'll call them that if they say they teach a class. Their ZNIR rank has no real meaning to me and my rank as a ZNKR person, in that it doesn't put them in my pecking order so it's technically "meaningless". But common courtesy says I treat them with the respect due their rank in their own organization.

So I'd argue that shogo never really had a meaning beyond the sort of respect you'd accord someone who said "I've got a PhD in Nuclear Physics" if you weren't in the organization or the field.

As to why a koryu would use the dan system or not.... none of my business. I find it fascinating that people seem to get all caught up in this stuff. "Oh I'm in a REAL koryu because we use the old system but those guys over there use that new-fangled Dan system so they're not as good". Hunh?

Since I dropped away from the Aikido stuff in Canada there has apparently been a second ranking system tacked on with shidoin and fukushidoin showing up below shihan. Dunno if any of those guys are any better for the second rank but who am I to object. It must have some meaning or they wouldn't have started using it.

Most accurate ranking system I know is "take a look".

Kim Taylor

Kim Taylor

8th November 2007, 18:17

Does the iai kata predate the ZKR? think it does. Might explain the common usage name versus formal name. With tons of different styles being discussed among practioners, seitai would likely be all they'd need to hear. I hear it today, and I'm not really listening for it. I think often Japanese say 'seitai' or 'koryu', because they'll know which koryu style internally they're discussing.

The ZKR iaido forms did and didn't exist before the kendo federation iai forms. They came from somewhere, (the koryu of course) but they came from more than one source and are probably best considered "their own thing" now, like any other art that has existed for a couple of generations as something different than the parent art. ZKRI first appeared around 1968.

You do have people assuming that the ZKR iai kata were somehow made up out of whole cloth brand new when they were introduced, or at least some sort of smooshing together of MSR and MJER with a bit of extra stuff thrown in for confusion's sake. And you have folks who will say things like "seitei gata has contaminated koryu" but that's not accurate in my opinion. There are lines of MJER which are demonstrably (by video from before "seitei" existed) identical to the seitei movements which are now supposedly contaminating those lines of koryu. In other words, those movements in seitei that are now found in koryu were in the koryu before seitei existed, and are not a result of students learning seitei and having them cross over.

That's not to say that students don't mix the two styles up, they do but that's a beginner thing and fully to be expected. It gets sorted out with time and proper instruction.

So the iaido side of things is a bit complex. On the other hand, the ZKR jodo kata are all more or less straight from Shindo Muso ryu and any variation from the koryu is within the variations to be found in the koryu lines themselves. In other words, if someone did a kata without declaring it "seitei" most people would have a hard time pegging it as koryu or seitei. It would easily be "somebody's koryu".

I'm sure all that will start lots of discussion about how different koryu and seitei is and welcome to it.

The ultimate point I have here is that for iaido, you'd have trouble finding a koryu that does "Uke Nagashi" like it's done in seitei, but you can see where it came from in both MSR and MJER. On the other hand, you could likely find a koryu match for almost all the seitei jo kata so it would be easier to say that the jo kata existed before the kendo federation than that the iai kata existed before the kendo federation if you wanted to generalize.

Kim Taylor