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Dick Mineo
15th November 2007, 19:10
To make this question more clear I will give a quick sum up of an old martial arts masters story.
I am terrible with remembering names so if anyone else has heard this story please feel free to add to or correct my interpertation.

The thing about this story is one man went to a cave, outside of the town to practice his martial arts, for a combat that was ahead.
He used his own visualization, built his own tools to hone his skills, and developed his own style in order to defeat his opponent.

My question is....
Can one continue to learn and improve his MA skills, without the benefit of practicing with partners ?

Naturally one can improve strength and indurance this way but - what about his/her ability to defend against attack or develope a better offense ?

lucky1899
15th November 2007, 21:05
I believe you will have plateaus in your training that require you do some solitary training to reach the next base of the hill. However, solitary training alone will not take you beyond the physical realm as I truly believe you must have an opponent (in fact, several opponents) to "get it". That being written, you wrote that the practitioner in the story used "visualization"; theoretically, visualization can substitute for the real thing.

Regards,

A. De Luna
Daito Ryu

wadespanners
15th November 2007, 22:39
Thats a good story and in my own opinion to train ones self is great to get ur own style and technique to counter and attack ive heard that story before and ive heard a few endings to it but in my opinion this guy to go to his cave and create and hone is own technique in combat i hope he won but as lucky said as ive learned myself no matter how good you think urself is in MA a opponent is always the best way to prove the actions of beliefs in your own system so maybe well never no how he did and if it was effective but imagination can acheive a mental result lets say he won always gd a happy ending heh :)

Dick Mineo
16th November 2007, 04:46
Thank you for those comments. I agree that it is best to have partners to work with and that one will never know for sure if his practice has helped with out testing it on a real opponent.
Let me put the question another way. One that is more direct to my situation.

What I want from this thread is to find the best way to retrieve some of the confidence I had, back when I was practicing with pleanty of others to work with.
Some of the reasons I wind up practicing on my own 99% of the time now are - I moved to the mountains where the population is small, most are retired folks like myself and older, the nearest martial arts classes are far away plus they are styles I have never heard of before. Not particularly interested in starting a new style.
I have had my own dojo for over 35 years and have acquired or built many types of equipment. I aways did workout on my won, atleast 3 times as often as I did in classes, even though I have had aprox. 8 years of formal GoJu classes, 3 years of Shotokan classes, 4 years of Aikido classes and a personal friend Sensai that worked with me and a group of 4 other men for 35 years. This 35 year work was done the whole time and the other classes were added to it. So experience with sparring is not something that was lacking for all of those years.

Now I am ageing and feeling it. I still do workout with kata and equipment but when I miss a week or two - I really loose that confidence.
Once or twice a year I will join with my old group of friends for a weekend of work outs, and they say I still have it...what ever it is.

So - I am looking for that feeling of confidence but have little to no opportunity to test my skill on others.
Also - at 58 years old - when ever I do get togather with the group (all but Sensai are much younger than I am) I may hold my own for short periods of time but feel it terribly for a week afterword.

Any ideas or advice for a situation like this ?
I've been getting a bit lazy due to lack of inspiration lately.

wadespanners
17th November 2007, 13:59
Hmmm with ur experience of MA of many years and not being able to join a club which is close enough why not share your experience with others by enquiring at local halls or other possible places local to you that u could start ur own club and teach as there is no where close to you im sure a lot of interest would develop to build up ur own students a few flyers posted around the neighborhood ;) and your confidence of sharing your skills and styles to others would be the best boost and plus you would shake them bits of rust gathering by a regular class only a thought but a idea for you to ponder on :)

Dick Mineo
18th November 2007, 18:49
Mark
That is a good idea. I have tossed it around the neighborhood a little bit but so far no responce.
Actually as I re-read my posts, I am a bit imbarrassed with the angle I came from.
I think the main thing I am looking for here is how to stay inspired with ones workouts, when these situations exist. Your idea of starting a class of my own is a good one.

Turns out some inspiration presented itself the day after my last post.
Our neighborhood gets really quiet during the fall and winter months. Most of the people go south for warmer, dryer weather. One of the full timers up here called me during the night and said there was someone prowling around the empty house next to his. I immediately grabbed my walking cane (a tool I have practiced with for some years) and headed over to check the situation.
Nothing came of it but my feeling of confidence was up and running just fine.
Think this will get me doing more work again with cane, bo, jo, heavy bag and makiwara board.
So inspiration seems to be where it is for me during these short days of fall.
If I was going to classes there would be pleanty of that but now it is more just trying to stay fit and ready for what life can bring on.

Next - I will try to think of another topic to bring.
Dick Mineo

trevorg
19th November 2007, 09:38
Dick

Given that you are probably surrounded by people of your own age, why not offer classes in your walking cane techniques ? That might hold more appeal to begin with and you can insinuate ma techniques as you go along.

Osu
Trevor

trevorg
19th November 2007, 22:22
Dick

Just touching on canes, have you seen this thread up in the members lounge ?

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38309

There is an interesting reference to cane work on the site.

Trevor

Peter B
20th November 2007, 00:19
58 is not ageing!
We are just getting to the point where we have sufficient experience to discover whole new levels of insight into MA!
Peter

trevorg
20th November 2007, 12:29
I'm older than that and I'm still struggling with gyaku tsuki ! :D

osu
Trevor

Dick Mineo
22nd November 2007, 21:29
58 is not ageing!
We are just getting to the point where we have sufficient experience to discover whole new levels of insight into MA!
Peter

Aah ! This is the kind of thing I was fishing for with my original question.
I agree that this many years allows one to keep discovering new levels and as Trevor mentioned....we keep struggeling with basics as well.

Part of my question (that I could not find proper words to express) has to do with - While practicing these days I do feel that I keep learning new possabilities. Not having partners to test them on is the dilema. I know that many times (in the past) when I worked techniques on my own, then tried them with the group....they didn't work as well as I had visualized. At least that is - when working with them bunkai style. I did find sometimes that when we were sparring and my opponent was not expecting my new method -they did work.

For me - the gist of the whole thing is.
Since I never really felt that I found my complete peak during earlier years....there is no reason I can not surpass what I had done when I was more physically able with a wiser alternative.

Being as I am not normally a forceful or agressive person, I only make small comments to others (not in martial arts) about my practice. This is most likely why I do not recruit much interest in the neighborhood. For those that I do talk about the arts with....I keep looking for the proper oportunity to get something going. I have always have been a patient man.

trevorg
22nd November 2007, 21:33
Patience is the greatest of all virtues, such as hanging in there while the wife decides what to wear when you're going out for the evening.

Osu
Trevor

gmanry
23rd November 2007, 04:40
It is certainly possible to increase one's MA ability when training by oneself. However, it is not easy and takes a certain perception and honesty in one's training.

The advantage is not getting distracted by the crap in the dojo, politics, egos, etc. The disadvantage, of course, is that correcting problems is really, really difficult. This comes back to the honesty and perception.

I have to train by myself, a lot. However, I still make progress that is on par with others I know who dojo train. Sometimes I progress in some areas even faster than they do. Sometimes I progress slower.

It is the unique opportunity to make the art truly yours. The most important training you do is on your own, that is what real training is. Time in the dojo is checkup time and learning time. The hard work is when you are in your own head, with your own doubts and criticisms.

Dick Mineo
23rd November 2007, 05:05
It is certainly possible to increase one's MA ability when training by oneself. However, it is not easy and takes a certain perception and honesty in one's training.

The advantage is not getting distracted by the crap in the dojo, politics, egos, etc. The disadvantage, of course, is that correcting problems is really, really difficult. This comes back to the honesty and perception.

I have to train by myself, a lot. However, I still make progress that is on par with others I know who dojo train. Sometimes I progress in some areas even faster than they do. Sometimes I progress slower.

It is the unique opportunity to make the art truly yours. The most important training you do is on your own, that is what real training is. Time in the dojo is checkup time and learning time. The hard work is when you are in your own head, with your own doubts and criticisms.

Now - That was nicely put.
Maybe part of why I liked your explination so much, is because you obviously have practiced a lot like I have.
I have found that many of the misconceptions (with those that practice light contact ma.) is their belief that a punch, or better yet, some of the open hand strikes (done light to no contact), actually would harm ones own hand more than his opponents target area. And being there with some snappy acurate looking technique, with out having their whole center involved is most likely useless. These are some things I constantly work at with equipment and visualization.
As you mentioned - Honesty in the form, considering possible effect to both the opponent and ones own body. Training the muscles to line properly for maximum power with the least waste. BASICS always being foremost.

This training does make life in general more confident. Paitince also comes from this confidence. The patience to wait for ones wife to get ready for an outing, comes along with knowing ones own boundries and how much time it takes to begin to understand even the most basic of m.a. techniques.
It is way more than just going through the moves.

gmanry
24th November 2007, 16:05
Now - That was nicely put.
Maybe part of why I liked your explination so much, is because you obviously have practiced a lot like I have.
I have found that many of the misconceptions (with those that practice light contact ma.) is their belief that a punch, or better yet, some of the open hand strikes (done light to no contact), actually would harm ones own hand more than his opponents target area. And being there with some snappy acurate looking technique, with out having their whole center involved is most likely useless. These are some things I constantly work at with equipment and visualization.


I have found that trees, telephone poles, and large piles of hay bales leave little to the imagination as to how a particular strike will play out. ;)

I really enjoy training by myself, but I do wish I had training partners. The small town I live in is dominated by TKD and most people are not interested in the deeper training of older arts. I have an iaido group I practice with, but that is mostly solo kata with some partner work.

I practice a lot of weaponry now, and at some point a second person is very useful, but not always necessary. As you said, visualization. It can take you pretty far. Getting your hands on a person to be a throw monkey is still necessary from time to time, and you learn a lot by being uke yourself.

In the end, though, it is YOUR training. You should be spending more time outside of the dojo than you do in the dojo (by this I just mean training on your own). There are many here who would disagree with me, but I have found it to be true.

Dick Mineo
25th November 2007, 06:43
GManery
Seems you and I have a lot in common as far as our workouts and life styles.
Myabe this is why we agree that solo workouts are good.
Looking at your public information I see you are self imployed. I too worked as a handyman for many years and now I'm semi-retired. You say you workout with a small group occasionally - These days I manage only 1 or 2 times a year where the old group (4 guys) that I moved away from, comes here for a few days at a time, for intense workouts; Or I go to the city and visit them for an evening of practice.
In the old days, I would take classes that ranged from 10 to 30 people, 2 or 3times a week, plus I worked on my own aprox double the hours I spent in classes. Did this for some over 18 years as well as the weekly workout at my dojo with my sensai, for 32 years, which was usually 3 hours of mostly sparring, open hand or with weapons. Outside mostly because my dojo then was small - summer, spring, fall and winter.
Now I have a much nicer and larger dojo with lots of equipment, so as I said 99% on my own these days.
I definately agree that the reason it seemed I improved faster than most others in the large classes was.....I put in so much more time before the next class to understand what that sensai taught, as well as work with my personal friend & sensai at home, then on my won for twice that time.

Daang I have been getting wordy lately. Hope not to get boring with to you all.

Agreed - Not enough partner work lately but not much choice.
If I manage to keep inspired....I keep working out.
If I keep working out.....I feel confident and believe I keep learning more.
Inspiration is key.

gmanry
25th November 2007, 18:42
Mr. Mineo,

I see you live in the Olympic Peninsula of Washington. My wife and I used to live in Pullman (where we met), and she is from Federal Way in Seattle, small world.

We moved to Wyoming to "escape," I am betting for similar reasons to you.
I run a computer business now, still relatively new, not even 3 years. Building that in a town of 17000 has been challenging. I had a small group but everyone moved away. I don't teach kids, so that limits my options. Lots of people show interest, but as a past teacher said, "get a quarter for everyone who says they are going to train and you will be a rich man."

I have an iaido group (lucky to actually find a qualified and experienced teacher here) and my other teacher is 5 hours away in the south of the state. So that leaves me, my wife occasionally, and a poor battered telephone pole for bojutsu at my favorite park during the warm months or our hay bales. I have a small dojo in the basement that has not been getting a lot of use, but there is snow on the ground now, so time to go downstairs.

I do have a local judo teacher who will uke for me on occasion and partner work in iaido serves to keep my maai sharp for weapons (we also learn naginata). My other style is Bujinkan, and it really doesn't have a lot of representation in the fly over states, but my teacher is very supportive and works with me when we can get together.

I saw Goju Ryu in your profile. Did you ever study with Chinen Sensei in Spokane?

Dick Mineo
27th November 2007, 04:39
Mr. Mineo,

I see you live in the Olympic Peninsula of Washington. My wife and I used to live in Pullman (where we met), and she is from Federal Way in Seattle, small world.

We moved to Wyoming to "escape," I am betting for similar reasons to you.
I run a computer business now, still relatively new, not even 3 years. Building that in a town of 17000 has been challenging. I had a small group but everyone moved away. I don't teach kids, so that limits my options. Lots of people show interest, but as a past teacher said, "get a quarter for everyone who says they are going to train and you will be a rich man."

I have an iaido group (lucky to actually find a qualified and experienced teacher here) and my other teacher is 5 hours away in the south of the state. So that leaves me, my wife occasionally, and a poor battered telephone pole for bojutsu at my favorite park during the warm months or our hay bales. I have a small dojo in the basement that has not been getting a lot of use, but there is snow on the ground now, so time to go downstairs.

I do have a local judo teacher who will uke for me on occasion and partner work in iaido serves to keep my maai sharp for weapons (we also learn naginata). My other style is Bujinkan, and it really doesn't have a lot of representation in the fly over states, but my teacher is very supportive and works with me when we can get together.

I saw Goju Ryu in your profile. Did you ever study with Chinen Sensei in Spokane?


Yes - Federal Way is quite close as the bird flies East from here. The water makes the drive take over an hour but it is a small world all right. When I was younger my buddies went to school in Pullman.

Ooh man ! Computers ;-(
You probably get this from everyone you meet. I have been having computer problems for almost a month now. My techie neighbor is even stumped. Next step will be dump the whole system and start again. Daang ! No virus just problems. 17000 people just need to know you are available and you will be flooded. Best wishes to you.
I was mostly an auto mechanic when I worked for others. Also did construction, landscaping, heavy machinery and assembly line manufacturing.
With basic knowledge of these skills I decided to start my own handy man business. My schedule went from 5 to 7 days a week and the bookwork was terrible. Moved up here in the mountains by lake Cushman and bought myself a backhoe to build my own home with. Now I am retired and help the neighbors with their projects now and then. Much better.
Same goes with my mention of MA to others. They always say they will come and exercise but when it comes to actually showing up....

The park here is almost all mine. Durnig the fall, winter and spring it is almost always empty. From my house there is just a path through the woods, along side of a beaver pond that leads to the groomed park. I have 3 spots that are concealed from homes (most empty during winter any way) and the weather is almost never too cold here. I really have no excuse for not exercising a lot - besides lack of inspiraton usually.

Shotokan's phrase - Bending of Trees - is more an additude than going around bending trees. However if you want to get a feel for the type of power they train for....try bending a tree that is about 4" thick at the bottom. Note how it gets harder to bend the farther you manage to pull it. This bow like tension is where the delivery of their punches and especially their kicks comes from However - I decided after a few years that their technique was too predictable when compared to Goju. That is - they always started from a wide stance in order to be grounded enough to deliver their powerful attack. This made for a slow start and an easy goju answer.
I really did apreciate their class spirit and powerful attacks though. Otherwise it was a lot like Goju, little differences in their kata and not enough to keep me there more than 3 years.

I have not seen many of the styles you mentioned. It amazes me how many styles there are now days.

Has anyone here worked with or seen Pangai Noon style ?
This I have just seen some videos and was very impressed with their interpertation of Goju.

Dick Mineo
27th November 2007, 04:49
GManry
I forgot to answer your last question.
I did not know Chinen Sensai. The name does sound familiar though. His class may have been to one of the larger competitions I attended. Maybe his name was mentioned in our classes, but I have no solid memory of him.
Sensais - Reuter, Combs, Jorgensen and Helbock in Goju. Sensai Dulse in Shotokan and Greg and Ronda Olsen in Aikido. Master Chin came to the us for 3 months every year and taught TaiChi. I worked those 3 months for 3 years plus some random classes at the local comunity college.

Joseph Svinth
27th November 2007, 06:32
Dick --

Reuter died (in Hawaii) a couple years back. Kregg PJ, on the other hand, is still cranking out the paperbacks.

Dick Mineo
28th November 2007, 19:31
Dick --

Reuter died (in Hawaii) a couple years back. Kregg PJ, on the other hand, is still cranking out the paperbacks.

WOW !
I am so glad I mentioned them. Sorry aobut misspelling their names. I should have looked at my diplomas to get them right.
So sad to read about Mr. Reuter. I remember him from his classes at the UW and his dojo in Kirkland. He was a tough act to follow and one of the most experienced of my teachers.

Kregg P.J. is most definately my most respected sensai. He didn't even want to be called Sensai but his nature was amazing. He had so much front line experience in Vietnam, had fragments of hand grinade still in parts of his body yet was the most gentle person one could know, that is - unless you threatened him. I have a good story about a guy that came to our class and pushed him too far but will not go into that here.
Kregg is still writing ? I have his first book. Will google for more.
I looked for him on line a while back but don't really know how to do that.
I would imagine he has internet from his ability to write even back in the early 80s.
Thanks for the update. Will tell my fellow MA mates.

Dick Mineo
28th November 2007, 19:34
Forgot to mention.
I will probably not be here for a couple of days.
Computer needs reformating.
Might take a while go get going again.

cxt
28th November 2007, 19:51
Dick Mineo

Excellent advise above!

I'd just add--why not?

I see pro basketball players working on solo shooting all the time. Pro baseball players pitching balls to nobody but a target and hitters hitting off pitching machines.
A major part of a pro boxers workout is "solo"--bagwork, roadwork, ropework, footwork, strength-training etc.

Even MMA fighters---much of their training is solo in nature.

I say that if it works for the pros--then its probably going to work ok for everyone else.

It is much harder to stay motivated when its just yourself.

I have a buddy that got pretty good at judo (ok pretty good at taking falls in judo ;) ) he had a co-worker whom was a judo-ka with nobody to practice with--so he taught my buddy so HE could practice with him.

Joseph Svinth
29th November 2007, 02:50
Dick --

Send me your e-mail address, and I will send you Kregg's e-mail address.

Reuter's obit was posted in the Star-Bulletin. See http://starbulletin.com/2006/01/16/news/obits.html :

William Peter Reuter Jr.
Dec. 26, 2005

William Peter Reuter Jr., 64, of Honolulu, a retired karate instructor, died in Straub Clinic & Hospital. He was born in Honolulu. He is survived by wife Deborah, son William III, stepdaughter Jessica Pimental and hanai mother Rita Kauhane. Services: 11:30 a.m. Saturday at Diamond Head Mortuary. Call after 9:30 a.m. Sunset scattering at Kaimana Beach. Casual attire.

See also Advertiser, http://w2.byuh.edu/library/obituaries/1995/K.htm :

George Kauhane, 71, of Honolulu, died Feb. 2, 1995. He was born in Honolulu. Survived by wife, Marguerite “Rita” Kauhane; daughter, Lauri F.; son, G. Healli; five grandchildren; brothers, William Reuter and Charles Bent; sister Mary Jane DeMello. [Adv Feb. 7, 1995]

Dick Mineo
1st December 2007, 06:09
Joseph
Thank you sir. Will e-mail you as soon as I finish here. It will really be nice to touch base with Kregg.
Will also send the link for Mr. Reuter to my friend that knew him much better than I did. I don't know if he has gotten this news yet. Boy the years fly by.

CTX
I really liked your reference to ball players and other athletes. So true.
Even your friend that worked jujitsu on his own. If one does not know how to fall correctly he is in a lot of trouble with the throwing arts - Aikido and Jujitsu. Jujitsu however does need a partner more than most arts. Glad he found a friend that got involved.
Motivation and inspiration are the stumbeling block for me. I get upset when a week goes by and I did not manage to do a MA related workout.
My hobbies and jobs are always physical due to not having enough brain power to sell anybody :look: so staying basically fit is natural for me, but feeling like I am ready to defend myself if needed takes keeping the MA mindset and training.
Having a good dojo, a nice park near by and inspirational words from fellow MA folks, like at this forum, is what keeps me excited about my next workout.