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Benkei the Monk
19th November 2007, 17:20
For my purpose of knowing, I was wondering yesterday about the term Aikijujutsu. This term appears in some other schools other than Daito Ryu.

Excluding evident fakes or fraudolent masters, is there some sort of Aiki system other than the Aiki studied in Daito Ryu?

For a reference, I was reading Harrison's book about his Japanese experience during pre war period at the Kodokan. There is a chapter in which he met a master of a koryu system (it is not reported what school was)and the master gave a demonstration of some aiki.

So is there another "aiki way" other than Daito way?

don
19th November 2007, 18:49
So is there another "aiki way" other than Daito way?See http://swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1202

Benkei the Monk
19th November 2007, 22:58
Frome the link above


"Aiki" is actually an old name for a group of kenjutsu tactics that employed mental inertia, disruption and involuntary reflex to defeat ones opponent. These concepts can be purely applied in taijutsu as aiki no waza (aiki jutsu) although it is a much less decisive tactic in taijutsu than it is in an engagement utilizing edged weapons. In taijutsu, aiki principles are most effectively employed in conjunction with jujutsu waza....hence the name aikijujutsu. At its highest level of execution aikijujutsu is characterized by sophisticated jujutsu waza which employs mental disruption and soft joint locks to throw or immobilize an attacker. Aiki taken even farther in taijutsu becomes the aforementioned aiki no waza (aiki jutsu) which almost totally eschews joint locking in favor of very subtle kuzushi and mental disruption to defeat an attack. Most aiki no waza should be viewed as a study of physical and mental dynamics as opposed to effective self defense. The extreme level of intricacy required for the effective application of aiki no waza make it a risky proposition in an art like taijutsu where even a successfully thrown opponent can recover and attack again. However, aiki jutsu (principles) applied in kenjutsu can be startlingly effective as the momentary kuzushi or mental disruption resulting from the application of "aiki" can be immediately followed by a life ending sword cut.

So it seems that aiki is more a concept than a school. So you can see aiki as a principle that you can reconduct to many aspects of martial arts. if they are in a jujutsu form and you apply aiki they became aikijujutsu, if kenjutsu you apply aiki in kenjutsu. Aikijutsu is the art of applying aiki in many fields, isn't it? This is a very interesting point of view. in this way Daito ryu, named at very beginning only jujutsu by Takeda Sokaku sensei, is a ryu where aiki is extensively taught, but not the only koryu (as stated for Yanagi ryu aiki bugei as Threadgill sensei stated)

Do I properly understand ?

Cady Goldfield
20th November 2007, 02:13
Yes, that sounds pretty good.
Takeda didn't invent aiki, he learned it from far older sources. He applied aiki to his art. From what I have read over the years, the concept of aiki goes back to koryu sword/weapons/empty-hand arts, and was passed along, into modern times, in some of the surviving classical jujutsu systems that were once a part of those koryu, as well as some surviving full koryu themselves. And even before the Japanese arts had these skills, there is good reason to believe that they existed in China, and still do today.

What seems like a rare and mysterious thing to us now, may well have been fairly commonplace at some point in history.

Finny
20th November 2007, 09:19
IIRC, isn't "aiki" a term that shows up in several koryu - each interpreting/using the term slightly differently?

I seem to remember reading something in Dr. Friday's book about Kashima Shinryu using the term, but interpreting it in a different manner than DR. But I could be wrong - just a fuzzy memory.

Simon Keegan
20th November 2007, 10:52
Isn't Kito Ryu considered a school of Aikijujutsu?

TimothyKleinert
20th November 2007, 15:17
IIRC, isn't "aiki" a term that shows up in several koryu - each interpreting/using the term slightly differently?
Ellis Amdur has written a bit on this... urgh, I can't seem to find the post I'm thinking of. Here's a post where he talks about "aiki" in Toda-ha Buko-ryu (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=178850&postcount=50) (and more on the same topic, here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=434730&postcount=18) and here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=163787&postcount=6)). I also remember him (or maybe it was some else?) discussing a set of "aiki" kata/techniques in one ryu, where the defender simply (physically) mirrored the attacker. But anyway, yeah, it's my understanding that even though the term is old, it didn't necessarily have a universal definition. The popular definition of "aiki" nowadays is clearly derived from Daito-ryu/Aikido.

BTW, does anyone know if any other koryu actually uses the term "aiki-jutsu" or "aiki-no-waza", other than Daito-ryu/ Yanagi-ryu? I seem to remember that in the wake of Sokaku Takeda, the term aiki came into vogue for a while, but I can't remember where I read that.

Now, though, even though the term "aiki" has multiple meanings across the spectrum of koryu, the principles behind Daito-ryu/Aikido "aiki" can certainly be found in most fighting systems (world-wide, not just in Japan). But individual systems may not call what they do "aiki"---look at Kuroda Tetsuzan and Russian Systema as current examples of aiki-like systems. Furthermore, Daito-ryu, Aikido, and Yanagi-ryu are the only systems I know of that choose to identify their arts with the use of "aiki", so if someone were to discuss "aiki-jutsu", I would assume they were talking about the aforementioned arts, or a derivative of them.

don
20th November 2007, 18:25
....So it seems that aiki is more a concept than a school. So you can see aiki as a principle that you can reconduct to many aspects of martial arts. if they are in a jujutsu form and you apply aiki they became aikijujutsu, if kenjutsu you apply aiki in kenjutsu. Aikijutsu is the art of applying aiki in many fields, isn't it? This is a very interesting point of view. in this way Daito ryu, named at very beginning only jujutsu by Takeda Sokaku sensei, is a ryu where aiki is extensively taught, but not the only koryu (as stated for Yanagi ryu aiki bugei as Threadgill sensei stated)

Do I properly understand ?No expert am I, but I think we must factor in Ueshiba Morihei. It was at the suggestion of Ueshiba's guru, Deguchi Onisaburo, that Takeda changed the name of his art to "aiki"-whatever. I suspect that this is not due wholly to any technical resonances with the prevailing concepts of aiki, but rather due to what has been characterized as "phonetic etymology," i.e., punning.

The aiki of aikijujutsu and aikido are rendered differently; AJJ renders aiki as a compound with a singular meaning (something causing confusion or imbalance or distraction on the part of UKE); aikido renders aiki as two distinct terms with two meanings ("matching/harmony" and "spirit/will/intention," et al.)

This is typical language play surviving from the medieval period in the New Religions (Omoto, et al., e.g., "Aikido is love"-"love being pronounced in Jpn as "ai"). Indeed when you read current scholarly accounts of medieval religion, they almost apologize for the emphasis on language inflicting such technical verbiage on the unsuspecting readers as metaphor, paranomasia, metonymy, synecdoche, etc. I suspect often the purpose of names was not meaning, but aspiration.

TimothyKleinert
20th November 2007, 18:52
Oh, I guess it was Nathan Scott who brought up the "mirroring" thing (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=394179&postcount=139):

Japanese terminology is often somewhat standardized, at least these days, but was not always so, and many still are being used with different meanings or have different meanings based on the context it is being used within... [For] example, some arts define aiki simply as the situation in which you and your opponent mirror each others postures physically.

DDATFUS
22nd November 2007, 03:00
I also remember him (or maybe it was some else?) discussing a set of "aiki" kata/techniques in one ryu, where the defender simply (physically) mirrored the attacker. But anyway, yeah, it's my understanding that even though the term is old, it didn't necessarily have a universal definition.

You might be thinking of Kiraku-ryu; if memory serves, they have a set of "aiki" techniques (possibly referred to in their densho as "aikijujuts?") which may involve mirroring. Ellis would probably be the guy to ask about that. I think there are some posts either here or on another forum discussing that subject.

glad2bhere
22nd November 2007, 15:49
Since noone has mentioned him, I point out that the late Donn Draeger identified the concept of "aiki-" as proceeding from the Aizu clan through a noted 18th century Confucian scholar. I mention this only because I am of the belief that the use the term "aiki-" as a method is of quite recent interpretation, with the use of the same term, as "attitude" is only of slighting older vintage.

At the risk of putting too fine a point on this may I say that the implications for effecting "Balance" in the original, or conceptual, interpretation may have had much more to do with the compromising or reestablishment of "Hwa" in the community. By comparison, the idea of "balance" or "unbalance" as applied to a given technique may be a more recent attempt to lend concrete meaning to an otherwise ethereal subject. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Benkei the Monk
22nd November 2007, 15:58
Thanks to all of you. Sharing these opinions helps me a lot in undestanding aiki

edg176
19th December 2007, 05:01
Jack,

Why do you care whether someone is an ''established" authority or ''recognized?" I guess the real question, is "recognized by whom?"

This isn't the practice of law with a hierarchy of authorities. This is training the body to perform certain tasks. The question is , how to do that in the best way?

As to the ''is there only an aikijujutsu", I guess before I could think about that, I'd have to know what movements and methods were ''aikijujutsu."

I wonder if what Kuroda Tetsuzan does, could be considered "aiki?"

Mark Murray
19th December 2007, 12:54
Back to being on-topic, just where did Takeda learn his "aiki" skills? Knowing that might help to answer the question of is there other aiki besides Daito ryu aiki?

Nathan Scott
21st December 2007, 22:11
[Post deleted by user]

Lance Gatling
22nd December 2007, 14:23
For my purpose of knowing, I was wondering yesterday about the term Aikijujutsu. This term appears in some other schools other than Daito Ryu.

Excluding evident fakes or fraudolent masters, is there some sort of Aiki system other than the Aiki studied in Daito Ryu?

For a reference, I was reading Harrison's book about his Japanese experience during pre war period at the Kodokan. There is a chapter in which he met a master of a koryu system (it is not reported what school was)and the master gave a demonstration of some aiki.

So is there another "aiki way" other than Daito way?

I have prewar documents that show other, perhaps modern rather than koryu aikijujutsu references.

One is a 1927 compendium of Japanese martial arts written by Dai Nippon Butokukai member.

Another is an original 1937 Kobukan dojo lesson plan for Tomiki-sensei's aikijujutsu instruction of the Kwantung Army (Japanese Imperial Army in Manchuria) Military Police. That lesson plan was later made into a classified military manual.

Tomiki sensei was in Manchuria primarily as a martial arts instructor at Kenkoku University.

Mark Jakabcsin
22nd December 2007, 14:39
Another is an original 1937 Kobukan dojo lesson plan for Tomiki-sensei's aikijujutsu instruction of the Kwantung Army (Japanese Imperial Army in Manchuria) Military Police. That lesson plan was later made into a classified military manual.

Tomiki sensei was in Manchuria primarily as a martial arts instructor at Kenkoku University.

Remember that Tomiki's first license from Ueshiba was in Daito-ryu and was awarded, I believe, before the name Aikido was even used.

MJ

George Kohler
22nd December 2007, 16:25
No expert am I, but I think we must factor in Ueshiba Morihei. It was at the suggestion of Ueshiba's guru, Deguchi Onisaburo, that Takeda changed the name of his art to "aiki"-whatever. I suspect that this is not due wholly to any technical resonances with the prevailing concepts of aiki, but rather due to what has been characterized as "phonetic etymology," i.e., punning.

I wonder sometimes if the reason for the name change from jujutsu to aikijujutsu was because there was another Daito-ryu jujutsu during that time.

See this post http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=451453&postcount=18

Eric Joyce
23rd December 2007, 03:11
Nathan,

Very interesting thread. If you get a moment, I sent you a PM. Thanks.

Lance Gatling
23rd December 2007, 04:16
I wonder sometimes if the reason for the name change from jujutsu to aikijujutsu was because there was another Daito-ryu jujutsu during that time.

See this post http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=451453&postcount=18

This is a dry hole - IIRC the Daito-ryu in question turns out to be primarily a sword style. Sekiguchi ryu as practiced now in Kumamoto is primarily a sword style, too.

Nathan Scott
23rd December 2007, 04:56
[Post deleted by user]

oneroundleft
8th August 2008, 22:38
I notice that no one has made any mention of Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu Aikijujutsu. I was curious as to the Daito Ryu community's general consensus on that art is?

Richard Elias
9th August 2008, 00:32
Post number #7 of this thread.

Nathan Scott
27th April 2010, 19:58
[Post deleted by user]

romaddan
30th June 2010, 09:02
I am in the process of looking for instruction in (aiki) jujitsu and (possibly) ken/Iaijutsu -though I would prefer a complete system. I understand that finding a complete system is unlikely within the vicinity in which I am looking. I am putting in the legwork of researching different schools (style, history, philosophy and legitimacy) and do not expect to be spoon-feed information concerning locations of instructors or dojos (I won’t turn away any information either…lol:)). What I am looking for is guidance. :nw:

I realize I may have to travel for proper instruction, which I am willing to do (within reason). There are members both on the Aikijujitsu & Sword Arts forums that must travel to continue their education and if they can do it, so can I. I am going to ask questions that are going to sound naïve however; I want to do this right.

• I know frequency of training, dedication, aptitude [student & instructor] all goes into learning and being a good pupil. Depending on the distance, I figure that I will be able to attend lessons between once (maybe twice) a week (local) to once a month (if I have to travel far). So my first set of questions (finally) are:
o As a novice, would twice a month (average) be enough?
o Would it be wise to practice (what was taught in class) between lessons (question is focused more toward ken)?

• Shortly, I am going to contact representatives of different ryuha’s which I am interested (namely Daito Ryu (Mainline (Kondo) or Daitokai), Hakuho ryu, Yanagi Ryu(or off shoot), ect.) to find if they have [non- publicized] instruction available with-in the area which I am willing to travel and introduce myself to them. My next set of questions are:
o What is the proper way to contact these representatives (call, email or letter)?
o If letter or email, what information do I provide about myself (martial arts history, career history, if I am married have kids, ECT)? What are they looking for?

I have looked locally to see what’s available. I have found an “Atemi Ryu Aikido/Jujitsu”, “Renzoko Kaarate Kobujitsu ryu” (a composite system—which of course claims Daito Ryu), & “Kokusai Jujutsu”. Every thing else in my area is TKD, BJJ & MAA. I don't even have a local Aikido Dojo (That didn’t sound right) :) which at this point I would kill for.

Anyways, I would appreciate any [knowledgeable] advice, hints, or remarks. Please don’t come back with statements like “If you (I) can’t find what you're looking for, move." Uncle Sam tells me where I live (though I am scouting out a few areas where he can send me that have the type of instruction I'm looking for…hehehe:D)

v/r

Dc

A.J. Bryant
30th June 2010, 12:34
Daniel,

If you're interested in a branch of Hakko-ryu Jujutsu, Col. (ret.) Roy J. Hobbs Sensei will be teaching a seminar at the Seidokan Dojo in Leland, NC, the 27th-29th of August. It might lead to other training opportunities if you speak to Hobbs sensei about your situation.

You can read more about it and download a flyer here (see top news item):

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/2.0/news.htm

JNavarro
30th June 2010, 14:22
Daniel,
In regards to Hakuho Ryu, our US dojos are located in Southeast Michigan.

Jose Garrido
1st July 2010, 12:52
Daniel,

One of our Instructors has just recently moved to North Carolina. If you are interested in mainline Daito-ryu look here www.daito-ryu.org and go to locations. Juan Ribot from Hawaii is now in North Carolina. Contact the Hombu or email him for contact info. He also does some Katori Shinto-ryu, but I do not know if he is allowed to teach it.

Good luck in your search and feel free to contact me if you cannot get a hold of Juan. I will then get a hold of him for you.

Jose Garrido

bu-kusa
1st July 2010, 19:44
I am in the process of looking for instruction in (aiki) jujitsu and (possibly) ken/Iaijutsu -though I would prefer a complete system.

I have looked locally to see what’s available. I have found an “Kokusai Jujutsu”.

If its this 'Kokusai Jujutsu' :

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?kokusai

Then you will have access to solid Japanese Jujutsu and Kenjutsu.

romaddan
3rd July 2010, 07:46
To everybody who have given me advice, guidance and information (both in the open and PM). Thank you. :nw:

I have contacted a few individuals and study groups that were recommended by this group as well as what I had previously researched (Mr. Ribot of DR, Genbukan/Kokusai (If I’m unable to find a DR study Group) and a Yamauchi-Ha Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaijutsu study group).

Within the next couple I will send out more letters/emails and hopefully I'll get some positive replies back. :D

Once again thanks to all who helped. I’ll keep ya’ll posted. :)

v/r

Dan-0