shame ?

[Indar]

Some time ago I read the interview with Aosaka Sensei on the WSKO website. I enjoyed the interview, but didn't really understand the point that he was making about shame.

After England was defeated by Croatia and failed to qualify for Euro 2008 the England coach was interviewed and asked if he was going to resign. He replied that he wasn't. The next day he was sacked and received £2,500,000 compensation.

So; is it true that in the West we don't feel shame, as long as we get paid?

[Ewok]

Reading the interview here (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/instructor/aosakass.html), "shame" as he is talking about is closer to guilt. The line "Benevolence, Justice, Loyalty, Filiality, Decorum" sounds like its from the Dokun (仁 jin、義 gi、忠 chu、孝 ko、礼 rei), and shame is more a general thing that sits at the center of Shorinji - know what is right, stand up for it, and act on it.

The latter half of seiku has the same idea - you alone are responsible for your actions and the results of the actions, and you have the responsibility and onus to fix what you mess up.

[paul browne]

So; is it true that in the West we don't feel shame, as long as we get paid?
Hi Indar,
I would hope the avarice of one high profile failure wouldn't become the yardstick by which all western morality is measured. Especially as Japan is not imune to base and corrupt practices among is 'great and good'.

I recall being told by someone who is well placed to observe this that the concept of 'shame' (he used the word guilt, in it's introspective sense) was different in Japan to Europe and was closely tied in to the concept of 'face'.

Not sure I'm using the term in the same context as Aosaka Sensei but the concept of shame is really very deep, and can have a myriad of meanings (I'm Catholic by birth and education making me a world class expert on the subject:D) but really only three things are important.
1) Do you have a code whereby some forms of behaviour would cause you to feel shame.
2) Is the shame felt because you've broken some personal code.
3) Is it only felt because you've been found out, or fear being found out and ostracised.
4) If you are ashamed can/have you taken some step towards making amends (I don't mean confession:))
Anyway just my pennyworth,
hope you are well.
Paul

[JL.]

... I just couldn't help myself. :)

[…]but really only three things are important.
1)
[…]
4)
"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again." (full text (http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/script.html))

I honestly think there is much we can learn from the Spanish Inquisition!

Jan

[Kaenzig]

The line "Benevolence, Justice, Loyalty, Filiality, Decorum" sounds like its from the Dokun

It might also have come from traditional bushido philosophy as it might have been taught within the family of Aosaka Sensei. In a french budo magazine (paul recently sent it to me) which had Aosaka Sensei featured in an article it said something like that.

[dirk.bruere]

Some time ago I read the interview with Aosaka Sensei on the WSKO website. I enjoyed the interview, but didn't really understand the point that he was making about shame.

After England was defeated by Croatia and failed to qualify for Euro 2008 the England coach was interviewed and asked if he was going to resign. He replied that he wasn't. The next day he was sacked and received £2,500,000 compensation.

So; is it true that in the West we don't feel shame, as long as we get paid?

Shame is the social facet of personal guilt - it concerns the transgression of group ethics/morality. Shame needs an audience.

Dirk

[paul browne]

Ah Jan,
You noticed my (ahem!) deliberate mistake.
Still it allows me to introduce one of the main influences on the philosphy of Doshin So.

"You dont have to follow anybody!" Brian AD33-Doshin So AD1947.

Are you familiar with the philosophical works of the Blackadder dynasty?

Dirk,
Interesting definition.

regards
Paul

[dirk.bruere]

Ah Jan,
You noticed my (ahem!) deliberate mistake.
Still it allows me to introduce one of the main influences on the philosphy of Doshin So.

"You dont have to follow anybody!" Brian AD33-Doshin So AD1947.

Are you familiar with the philosophical works of the Blackadder dynasty?

Dirk,
Interesting definition.

regards
Paul

I should have expanded it a bit when I wrote it. I think the point is that we do not feel shame if we do not care what others think of us. There are two entities that judge our behaviour, ourselves and everyone else. I think that 'guilt' is a better description of the feeling of failing to live up to our own standards of behaviour, and shame is felt when we do not live up to the standards or expectations of people around us who we care about.

In this latter sense there is (in my opinion) less shame in the West, certainly now as opposed to many years ago. This has largely come about as a consequence of social fragmentation and loss of community (and even family) cohesion. I recall a favourite saying of my grandmother: "Whatever will the neighbouts think". These days nobody cares about what the neighbours think, or often anyone else at all. And that is partly because we don't actually know our neighbours, nor particularly go out of way to do so.

Shame is a consequence of caring.

Dirk

[Nina]

I think the point is that we do not feel shame if we do not care what others think of us. There are two entities that judge our behaviour, ourselves and everyone else. I think that 'guilt' is a better description of the feeling of failing to live up to our own standards of behaviour, and shame is felt when we do not live up to the standards or expectations of people around us who we care about.

I can only feel shame when I look in the mirror. It`s an absolute personal feeling for me, when I don`t fullfill my own expectations. I feel bad if I don`t achieve the expectations of my parents, but I don`t feel shame, it`s more some kind of compassion.

In this latter sense there is (in my opinion) less shame in the West, certainly now as opposed to many years ago. This has largely come about as a consequence of social fragmentation and loss of community (and even family) cohesion. I recall a favourite saying of my grandmother: "Whatever will the neighbouts think". These days nobody cares about what the neighbours think, or often anyone else at all. And that is partly because we don't actually know our neighbours, nor particularly go out of way to do so.

I agree that we probably don`t know our neighbours, they are too much. But I guess that a lot of people think about what others think, too much. I think that you should rely more on yourself.
Guilty is something completely different for me...

[dirk.bruere]

Reminds me of that joke about a teenager in his bedroom, audio headset on, eyes closed, masturbating. When he finished he noticed his mum had left him a cup of tea beside the bed. I suspect the feeling is shame, but not guilt:-)
Which also suggests that shame and embarrassment are not too different.

Dirk

[glad2bhere]

"Shame is a consequence of caring...."

about what other people think.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kirgan]

I suspect the feeling is shame, but not guilt:-)
Which also suggests that shame and embarrassment are not too different.
Dirk


Gassho,

I've been thinking about what you said and I can see where you are coming from. However, the more I think about guilt and embarrassment; I believe both are just forms of shame. I thought about how you can feel guilty about something and even if people don't know about it you may even think to yourself that you are ashamed. If as you said there is an audience then you might also feel embarrassed. Of course you can feel embarrassed, but not guilty - which I have heard people refer to this as shame. This made me think guilt and embarrassment as just two forms of shame.

Kind of like how the Eskimos have a lot of different words for snow. Each word means something slightly different, but it is all still snow. In other cultures they may have only one word for snow, but then they have to describe it to get the meaning across - soft snow, powdered snow, wet snow, etc..

So, I think it is all shame with an extra description to understand which form you are talking about - guilty shame or embarrassing shame.

--Mike

[P Goldsbury]

Reading the interview here (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/instructor/aosakass.html), "shame" as he is talking about is closer to guilt. The line "Benevolence, Justice, Loyalty, Filiality, Decorum" sounds like its from the Dokun (仁 jin、義 gi、忠 chu、孝 ko、礼 rei), and shame is more a general thing that sits at the center of Shorinji - know what is right, stand up for it, and act on it.

I think some care is needed here. I have read the interview and the last part especially is closely concerned with Japanese culture. Thus it would be good to read the interview in the original Japanese and see what Aosaka shi takes for granted that does not come out in the translation.

In Japan much is made of the difference between 'shame culture' and 'guilt culture'. The usual word for 'shame' here is haji (shame; embarrassment) and this is contrasted with tsumi (sin; guilt). In the creation myths, the difference is clear: in the Japanese creation myth, the deity Izanami feels shame because her husband Izanagi had seen her in her real state (in the Land of Yomi, or the world of the dead) and Izanagi then has to perform a misogi ritual in order to remove the pollution. There is no sense of personal sin or guilt. In Genesis, on the other hand, Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden of Eden because they are guilty of a sin against Yahweh. Eventually, the sin has to be expiated or atoned for in some sense. However, the shame they experience is not directly due to the sin; it is because they are now aware that they are naked. The two are not the same.

I stress the difference here merely to focus on what might be taken for granted in the interview. Aosaka shi is not the first Japanese martial arts expert to discuss martial virtues thought to lie at the heart of Japanese culture, which western martial arts exponents may not be aware of directly.

[JL.]

Hello Peter-sensei!


In Japan much is made of the difference between 'shame culture' and 'guilt culture'. The usual word for 'shame' here is haji (shame; embarrassment) [...] Thanks for the valuable input. You probably hit spot on, too, because on both Gasshukus with Aosaka-sensei I attended this year he has been talking about Jin, Gi, Chu, Ko, Rei and Haji in this order. The first five are from our oath (as posted above by Leon-san), the last one isn't. Although I don't know the Kanji and there probably are several words pronounced Haji in Japanese it seems very logical, that this is what he meant.

As an aside, Inuit have only two words for snow: quanik (snow that lies on the ground) and aput (snow that falls). The rest are derivations just like in our languages.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Peter-sensei!

Although I don't know the Kanji and there probably are several words pronounced Haji in Japanese it seems very logical, that this is what he meant.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Hello Jan,

Haji is the sole Japanese kun reading of the character (恥), read as a single character. The ON reading is CHI, which is the reading for 35 other characters. Kun variations are hajiru, hazuru, (feel shame) hajirau (be shy, bashful), hazukashii (be) shy or bashful, hazubeki (disgraceful, unbecoming).

[luar]

Shame can also mean humility.

[dirk.bruere]

As an aside, Inuit have only two words for snow: quanik (snow that lies on the ground) and aput (snow that falls). The rest are derivations just like in our languages.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

As an aside aside we have an amazing number of words for "tree" eg oak, elm, ash, pine, redwood etc. I bet the Inuit don't:-)

Dirk

[JL.]

As an aside aside we have an amazing number of words for "tree" eg oak, elm, ash, pine, redwood etc. I bet the Inuit don't:-)Dirk*lol* Probably not. :) JL

[tony leith]

From Indar


Some time ago I read the interview with Aosaka Sensei on the WSKO website. I enjoyed the interview, but didn't really understand the point that he was making about shame.

Having just spent a couple of weeks in Japan, and not once in that time having witnessed anybody acting in a drunken and loutish manner on public transport (have seen several in the two weeks since getting back to Glasgow), having seen basically no litter, and observing every person taking a mobile phone call on a train immediately and with no fuss making their way to the vestibules at the end of the carriage so as not to disturb fellow passengers, I feel I've got a pretty good handle on what he meant.

Adam Smith and David Hume are equally clear about 'good' i.e. ethical behaviour being at least as much a consequence of fearing disapproval at least as much as seeking approval and self gratification. their key point was that humans are social beings, and their behaviour can't be understood without considering their social context.

Shame can be taken to destructive and tyranical extremes, but it's equally clear to me that its near complete absence can be no less destructive of the essential civility which should characterise a - well - civil society.

Tony leith

[Ewok]

Having just spent a couple of weeks in Japan, and not once in that time having witnessed anybody acting in a drunken and loutish manner on public transport (have seen several in the two weeks since getting back to Glasgow), having seen basically no litter, and observing every person taking a mobile phone call on a train immediately and with no fuss making their way to the vestibules at the end of the carriage so as not to disturb fellow passengers, I feel I've got a pretty good handle on what he meant.

Depends where you go. Littering is a huge issue in Japan, there is a empty block around the corner from my house which is always full of junk. Take a hike up Mt Fuji and the one thing you notice is the amount of rubbish that is just dumped by the side of the path on the way up :(

Drunken behavior only really shows late on a weekend, but its not uncommon to be dodgy puddles of vomit at the train station :(

All in all people do tend to act better than you would see overseas, but there are places where things are worse - while on the topic of trains "chikan" or molesters would be the worst. More than once a month tens of thousands of people are delayed by some perverted idjit trying to escape by running down the railway tracks (http://www.topix.com/world/japan/2007/10/molesting-salaryman-makes-escape-over-railroad-tracks).

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20071123TDY03101.htm

[dirk.bruere]

All in all people do tend to act better than you would see overseas, but there are places where things are worse - while on the topic of trains "chikan" or molesters would be the worst. More than once a month tens of thousands of people are delayed by some perverted idjit trying to escape by running down the railway tracks (http://www.topix.com/world/japan/2007/10/molesting-salaryman-makes-escape-over-railroad-tracks).

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20071123TDY03101.htm

Obviously trying to avoid the shame of being caught in the act:-)
Still, there is a weird dark side to the Japanese that I first came across in 1985 on my first visit to Japan. Pulled down off the shelf a "Mens magazine" expecting to see the usual in the centrefold (I was gasping for something to read after a week there, or just look at). Instead, it was a photo of "car crash of the week" with "spot the loose head" as a bonus.

Dirk

[Ewok]

Obviously trying to avoid the shame of being caught in the act:-)
Still, there is a weird dark side to the Japanese that I first came across in 1985 on my first visit to Japan. Pulled down off the shelf a "Mens magazine" expecting to see the usual in the centrefold (I was gasping for something to read after a week there, or just look at). Instead, it was a photo of "car crash of the week" with "spot the loose head" as a bonus.

Its the manga (comic) and tabloids that have the centerfolds - like the amusingly titled Young Jump (http://yj.shueisha.co.jp/) (possibly NSFW, depends what comes up I guess and if you have an aversion to bikinis).

What interests me the most about Kaiso's talks is the relevance they still hold in Japanese society, but at the same time the vast improvements that have been occurring.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

As an aside, Inuit have only two words for snow: quanik (snow that lies on the ground) and aput (snow that falls). The rest are derivations just like in our languages.
More off topic: My language (Finnish) has at least five differents words for snow. And
maybe 20-30 derivations...

[glad2bhere]

This is a small thing but I have noticed that noone has raised the issue of "confession" (S. Apatti desani).

Within the Sangha there are times when members have a chance to reveal to the community their shortcomings in their own growth or, perhaps transgressions of the community guidelines.

To be sure, such actions take considerable trust in the community and belief in one's own Path. There is, after all, always the matter of embarrassment where the Ego is concerned, ne? However, I am not aware that this option ever carries with it the sort of "shame" which others are commenting on. This is to say, confessing to the Sangha does not hold the energy or concern that one might have for what others think, feel or judge. Rather it is an opportunity to give voice to what has been harbored inside and perhaps accept guidance from others who have experienced such issues in their own Path.

No real point other than to offer this additional information.
For further guidance I can recommend Buddhist Monastic Life (trans: Grangier and Collins; ISBN 0-521-36708-5; paperback).

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dirk.bruere]

This is a small thing but I have noticed that noone has raised the issue of "confession" (S. Apatti desani).

Within the Sangha there are times when members have a chance to reveal to the community their shortcomings in their own growth or, perhaps transgressions of the community guidelines.

To be sure, such actions take considerable trust in the community and belief in one's own Path. There is, after all, always the matter of embarrassment where the Ego is concerned, ne? However, I am not aware that this option ever carries with it the sort of "shame" which others are commenting on. This is to say, confessing to the Sangha does not hold the energy or concern that one might have for what others think, feel or judge. Rather it is an opportunity to give voice to what has been harbored inside and perhaps accept guidance from others who have experienced such issues in their own Path.

No real point other than to offer this additional information.
For further guidance I can recommend Buddhist Monastic Life (trans: Grangier and Collins; ISBN 0-521-36708-5; paperback).

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I think one of the ways one can engage in such confession, (obviously within a trusted community), without embarrassment or shame is to distance ones self from the actions. It is fundamental to Buddhist teachings that we do not attach to things, and that means the bad things we do as well as the good. Shame and embarrassment are aspects of the ego, which itself is illusory. There is karma which follows from the underlying actions/failures etc, but again we should not attach to it, but seek to rebalance it if possible. Shame, seeking to 'cover up' or excuse, or even confessing "I am a bad person" are all ego aspects to be dropped. When my car fails me ie breaks down, I view it as no more than that - something to be fixed. Ditto when "I" fail me.

Dirk

[Richard Codling]

I think Dirk's touched on a good point. If you do make an honest mistake you should have the balls and honesty to stand up and admit to it. What isn't OK is letting something slip by and hope that no-one notices then, as and when the consequences of your mistake become apparant, usually after the effects have spiralled out of control, the person who has inherited your position of responsibility when the mistake was made is left to carry the can. This is unfair, dishonest and irresponsible and can irrepearably damage the reputaion of the person blamed for your original mistake.

[glad2bhere]

I agree with your point, Richard, and I also take this a step farther.

As mentioned earlier (See: Dirk's post) there is considerable role for the Ego in these matters. There is also a matter of Delusion regarding one's conduct and the perceived power one might have regarding outcomes. For instance, in the matter you mentioned, it is a Delusion to believe that hiding one's short-comings from others somehow ameliorates the impact for one's own growth. Put another way, here in the States (arguably the archtypical "shame-based culture") there is an undeclared belief that "not being caught is the same as not doing wrong." As irrational as this position is, it is a belief that permeates American society on many levels. My sense is that when some travesty occurs, this belief may be what is behind the demand by the offended for a public apology by the perpetrator.

BTW: Has anyone mentioned or commented on the role of reparation to the community by one who has committed a transgression? I should think that the Japanese culture would have this down to a fine science given its complex system of obligations and responsibilities. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Ewok]

BTW: Has anyone mentioned or commented on the role of reparation to the community by one who has committed a transgression? I should think that the Japanese culture would have this down to a fine science given its complex system of obligations and responsibilities. Thoughts? Comments?

Like? The last 18months of Japanese politics has been like a sick joke with the number of (what I see as fairly minor) scandals coming to light, the minister or MP in question apologising and quitting, and more than likely taking a lucrative position in the private sector earlier than planned - (a practice known as amakudari).

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Leon. This is one of those cases where I simply don't know enough about Japanese culture to even most accurately express my question. Let me try again.

In the media such practices as seppuku have a high sensationalist value for the consuming public. Even in a case where it is done badly (See: Mishima) there is still considerable energy about it, yes? However, if one backs up before the sensationalism to the actual (original?) intention of the practice I think we see a desire to affirm the integrity or sincerity of one's beliefs with action.

In like manner, I think most people are familiar with the Japanese terms giri (indebtedness) and on (obligation). These seem to carry a reasonable expectation of making an effort to "repay" as it were, yes?

My question is to find out whether there is a Japanese institution in which "confession" automatically entails an expectation to make good on damage that may have been done. As I write this, for instance, I recall that there was an apology/admission by the Japanese government that Japanese agents had, indeed, been involved in the murder of Korean Queen Min. In Japanese culture, is such an admission sufficient to itself or is there also some expectation of reparation, even if only symbolic? Is this any better?
Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dirk.bruere]

BTW: Has anyone mentioned or commented on the role of reparation to the community by one who has committed a transgression? I should think that the Japanese culture would have this down to a fine science given its complex system of obligations and responsibilities. Thoughts? Comments?

Bruce

Only that reparation should be just that - a repair of the damage done. It should be as far as possible an action equal in magnitude to the damage done. "Sorry" is not enough if more can be done.

On a related note, one very good reason for not ignoring ones faults is that it indulges them and makes them stronger. The part of us that transgresses (and psychologically we are legion) should be shown that it cannot get away with it, and its actions disavowed and undone. Aspects of our character that are indulged become stronger - the good becomes better and the bad worse.
The etymology of the words "integrity" and "holy" is very instructive.

Dirk