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shorin1
6th January 2001, 06:26
Here's a question I thought I'd throw out to see what kind of interesting and varied responses came back. Its born out of something that occurred to me the other night whilst I was teaching and from some recent conversations:

"Does hikite play any role in waza (assuming that its not the withdrawing hand that's executing the technique that is :) )? Or is its emphasis a product of misrepresentation/misunderstanding in modern karate?"

I have my own POV but I'd really like to hear what other people think.......

Regards,
Colin

kusanku
6th January 2001, 06:35
Hikite or draw hand i imo never used in kata and never to be used in kmite without fulfilling a function, usually drawing or pulling the opponent's wrist or forearm back and twisting and locking it in one direction or another.

Even Funaksohi was photographed using it this way, this one is not mystery or shouldn't be.

Yes, the hand can press points but truthfully do't count on them, its fast, its a fight and there's no time for precision, just lock on, grab and pull and twist and you have the opponent under partial control while the other hand or foot strikes an area of major vulnerability.

Well, you say, if its so fast how can you always grab the opponent's hand?

You don't have to, its a defensive art, he's grabbed yours first, now you regrab or just pull and twist.

Its a defense against chin na or tuite or jiujitsu techniques which generally begin with a grab of your wrist, hands or fingers, and the easiest counter to which is, hikite.

In Judo also, this is taught.

Kusanku

shorin1
13th January 2001, 01:16
Sorry for the dealy in replying - bit of trouble with the Win32.MTX virsus :(

Here's my POV on hikite:

I do believe there are techniques which involve the grabbing/seizing of the wrist whilst the other hand (or leg executes a technique). However I also believe that the actions of the two i.e opposite hands are completetly unrelated. By that I mean I do not need to withdraw the 'seizing' hand in order to deliver an effective technique with the other.
This to me is the crux of the issue - too many people are taught that the retraction is important because it helps generate power on the opposite outgoing side. This implies that the hips act like a crank shaft, which they do not. Perhaps in time gone by the 'intent' has been lost in translation or as its been hand off from one person to the other. Its possible for example that the intent is to illustrate the rotation of the hips/body that takes place when delivering a strike.....
What then is the point of withdrawing the hand to the classic 'cocked' karate posture at the side of the body? Afterall, anyone who has had any kind of confrontation knows that the hands stay up in some form of 'guard' posture. One suggestion is predicated on the assumption that kata is a solo practice of self-defense technique. Furthermore, the practice focuses on the side executing the technique. If this were true the question would be "what to do with the opposite hand if it isn't executing a technique?" One possibility would be to leave it in a 'guard/fighting' type position. But perhaps that mught give away too many clues as to the intent of the kata technique. An alternative would be to put the hand in a neutral position...............
So IMHO the general purpose of hikite is not to pull per se as is often taught, but to return the hand not directly involved in the execution of a technique to a neutral position (get it out of the way so-to-speak so that the attention can be focused on the hand that's doing something).

I have no idea if this is correct or if anyone would agree with it. Its just a thought I've been palying around with for a while.

Seeya.

Colin

waza22
13th January 2001, 05:38
Mr. Colin?


I do not believe that the reverse hand is of any concern with providing power to a technique. I think it is a redundant movement found in many katas and drills that many teach. I do not see it having any other purpose than the grappling scenario explained by Kusanku.

I also believe that is not meant to provide power even on a reverse technique ie.. ushiro empi or the like. I think you are correct in your assumption about the reverse hand Colin. There is no "cocked hand" in real altercations as far as just letting it hang there.

Regards,
William D. Gray

Wayne McKnight
29th January 2001, 19:37
Hi all,
Being a Matsubayashi student, I have very much enjoyed the various threads on that styles kata.

<<Hikite: a catch; a pull. IMO, (may not be a "grab") used for deflection and for unbalancing an attack, while immediately executing a counter attack. >>

FWIW, one bunkai application we use demonstrating the usefulness of Hikete is in Fukyukata Ichi after the kata person has performed their second down block, head block to the forty-five degree angles and turns to do the back sequence of punches. The next attacker comes from the rear and punches for the kata persons rib cage. As the kata person turns to face and counter punch, the withdrawing left arm serves to block/deflect the attack while simultaneously punching with the right. All done with one fluid movement.

I've just come on board to this forum and it looks like there is a lot of good posting. I'll check in as I can, but as I do this on my lunch time from work, it may not be real frequent.

One more thing regarding Fukyukata Ichi; One of our students was in Okinawa while Master Nagamine was still alive and happened to see him practicing kata alone early one morning. Master Nagamine was doing Fukyukata Ichi over and over. When approached, he was asked why he wasn't doing a more advanced kata. His answer?: "Can always do better!".

Best wishes,
Wayne

okumori
30th January 2001, 23:01
Actually, the way I've been thinking of the hikite lately is that-- when it's not being used a a grab of an elbow strike to the rear-- it's just letting the hand go along with the koshi on that side. In other words, if we (especially beginners) hold the hikite hand in place, it's actually acting as an anchor to the rotation of the hip and thus splitting the energy of the technique, instead of focusing the energy in the direction of the punch (or whatever). That's in a punch, with the downblock, it's a whole new kettle of whatever. If you do the hikite and block simultaneously, you're actually working against the block, you have to time the hikite so that it actually pulls back after the block blocks.

this is all my own not-so-humble opinion of course, so take it with whatever salt you need to.

maurice

gmanry
21st February 2001, 01:06
I tend to practice along the lines that Shorin1 mentioned (although fell short of endorsing). My own practice and experimentation has led me to believe that hikite has become a disjointed concept.

Many people speak of the concept of power augmentation, yet the frequent rigidity of the shoulders prevent this from happening in striking. As such, I do not hold the shoulders still in striking. I know not all schools do this. We twist the shoulder/hip as a unit in blocking (this is kihon waza I am talking about).

The placement of the hand occurs from the twist of the body not a retraction of the hand. It is a top winding in a string and comes from the feet if you work it enough and get it really subtle.

As for technique. It can be a block, strike, a disbalance (pull), etc. It is never just one thing and it of course depends on the situation.

It represents a fundamental movement of the body when the body is allowed to move in a relaxed and natural manner.

All my opinion based on my own trial and error. This conflicts with a lot of basic karate theory currently taught today.

Glenn R. Manry

kusanku
21st February 2001, 08:24
Well, everyone has there own theories, but I believe there are no movements in kata that do not have combat usage, and this most certainly includes hikite.

If you aren't using it to do something , best get that rear hand up over your head, to coer up what otherwise is an irresistable invitation for a left or right hook to the head, not to mention a roundhouse kick, in kumite.

But, hey anyone wants to leave an empty fist at their hip,go right ahead-please!:-)

Lot easier to smack someone who does that than, say, a person using a boxing guard.Or an old karate guard, see sanchin or niseishi kata, both hands up covering vital areas.

Lord forbd though, anyone's freedom to get their head knocked off their shoulders be interfered with..:D

okumori
21st February 2001, 23:20
Actually, the way i do and teach hikite is much t3eh same as Glenn describes. The basic premise is that, as I said before, the hikite hand should above all, not act as an anchor for the movement of the koshi.

With this in mind, you can use it any way you like. It can be a pulling movement, and empi to the rear, or you can hold it high in a guard position. The main thing to keep in mind is that the koshi provides the power and speed and the shoulder and arm has to be loose and unrestricted to let that power come through.

just a few thoughts,
maurice richard libby

gmanry
22nd February 2001, 03:40
Hmm,

I don't know if you are suggesting that we are stupid enough to do what you are suggesting, Mr. Vengel. That would be unfortunate, as I know at least two of us stated quite clearly that it can be used in a variety of ways for waza. Before you jump into that, you must know the more mundane application it serves for basic body balance.

The point was that if you use it just as te waza, then you have missed the entire point of the kihon of the hikite, in that it really isn't a hand movement but is a body movement. This concept of total body movement should be fundamental for any karate movement, but sadly has become a ghost in favor of crispy wheats and raisins form in tournament kata.

The hikite, BESIDES, being their to represent a variety of defensive and offensive possibilities is there to teach us the concept of body rotation and balanced movement. Unfortunately, many people have transformed it into a disjointed mechanical movement of the hand ending at the shoulder. Certainly, this can be seen in taikyoku. However, since many karateka cannot even apply oi tsuke with any proficiency, it is often missed. I am not suggesting that this is the case with anyone here. It is just an observation I have made over the years.

Even a boxer retracts the shoulder and hip followed by the hand. Pushing it out and reeling it in with shifts of body weight starting with the feet. If you do not, then you are splitting your energy and creating disbalance for your opponent to exploit.

This would be another interpretation of no part of a kata goes unused.

You may have been speaking more generally though. So, I would ask you to clarify your post, please.

Glenn R. Manry

Aurora
2nd March 2001, 13:42
I've taken part in many, many discussions over the application(s) and use of hikite, and it seems to me that generally the majority seem to agree that it is a malpracticed or mal-applied waza. Obviously the practical application is the hi-neri grab, and that is still in general use today, according to Okinawan practioners widely. As far as the use of hikite to increase the power of the extended strike, my question is - "Does it work?"

It is very difficult to sort out exactly which waza we now have that are true representations of what the "original practitioners" meant to teach and which of them have been modified over the years. We then have the question of whether the modifications were intentional or mistaken.

IMHO it is important to appreciate the fact that there are huge differences between waza or kihon ito as practiced to improve upon our flexibility, strength, range of motion, correct bone and muscle alignment, stamina, (and so on and so on) and that which is "real." In other words, my most basic waza practice will never look like the actual techniques that would take place if (God forbid) I were to have to employ my knowledge in defending my life.

Anyhow - for my part I enjoy practicing kata at many different levels, and on one level, where I am striving to achieve the most perfect foundational form, I will always strive for the best hikite. At the other end of the spectrum, when I am practicing my goshindo bunkai, there is almost no hikite at all unless it is employed for the purposes previously discussed.

This is a very nice discussion thread.

Respectfully,

Aurora Tsunami
in search of perfection

Wayne McKnight
2nd March 2001, 15:55
Hi Aurora,

In regards to your question of power gained from hikete for the extended strike, let me pose a question:
Suppose you were at a county fair, and off to the side of the midway were booth's with tests of skill. One of these measures how hard you can punch. Being that you are with your significant other, you really want to show your best (okay...a little ego here..). Now, do you place both your hands up in a guard position in front of your body and punch with one hand right from there? Or would you rare back with the punching hand from a full chamber and use all of the body dynamics we've been taught including full retraction of the opposite hand? No question for me, this would generate the most power.
Now, back to reality. We train in basics until we learn over the years how to pack a lot of power in to what seems to be little movement to the untrained eye. We should be able to drop an opponent with any part of our body, from any position, and almost no distance as the circumstance dictates. But we get there but crawling before we walk. Therefore, I do believe there is value of practicing something such as hikete and other kihon waza not just as a beginner, but always. Basics aren't just for beginners you know. ;~)

Wayne McKnight

kusanku
3rd March 2001, 07:08
Well, Mr. Manry, I thought my post was clear. I do not believe that there is any reason whatever unrelated to an actual technique, whether grabbing or twisting, locking, elbow striking or blocking a hook to the kidneys,for using a hikite, which after all means draw hand as in draw someone in,to use a chamber like that.

That is my considered understanding,and if you don't like it you don't have to. As to me thinking any of you gentlemen are stupid, I make my comments with no regard to personalities.

Purely a tech discussion, as far as I am concerned, I don't even know any of you, nor you me.

As to balance. I don't see that hikite helps or hinders balance in any way, you should be able to be balanced in any position, no matter where the arms or hands are.

kata have many positions using other hand and arm positions than hikite, including manji gamae, yama gamae, and chudan morote gamae, to name but three.

Your preference for Taikyoku explains your favoring hikite of course, but those kata were developed in Japan for schoolchildren, not that they aren't fine forms, I have done detailed analyses of the many techniques contained in them.

The other gentleman's comments about hikite giving power , likewise, are not germane, as Boxers who do not use hikite hit far harder than karateka.Look where they hold thir hands?

Ever spar a Boxer? I have. free advice: Don't ever chamber unless you block a hook to the kidney.It isn't worth it.

Now.In older katas, sometimes the hikite is seen grabbing a wrist or arm or hand, like in seisan, or releasing one from a grab, as in sanchin.

I was taught, and I teach, this way: Never assume hikite if you don't have a real good reason for it, never assume a stance if function is not derived from doing so, never make a move that doesn't have a purpose.

That is my philosophy and I learned it the hard way, and only after twenty eight years in the arts and twenty in the style of karate I was studying with one teacher over that period.

And when I was shown this I didn't like it worth a damn.But I couldn't deny getting hit and dropped right to the floor every single time.

Hikite is for doing something , usually to the opponents arm or wrist, involving drawing and twisting.Also it is a wrist release for most arm or wrist grabs, with a simultaneous punch.Good defense against chin na or jiujitsu.

Believe that or don't, I don't care.

Now, I am not posting anymore on this thread because I don't like your tone too much, Sir.

I get paid for instruction.Free lessons over.

gmanry
3rd March 2001, 16:19
Your lesson has nothing in it that I did not already know. You however have completely missed the point of my posts.

Everyone knows why the Taikyoku were made, and they were actually invented by an Okinawan not the Japanese. So, you are wrong.

Yes, the hikite is waza, yes it can be many things. However, to ignore the most fundamental element of body motion that it relates to ensures that beginners will never get a proper feel for their motion, will be using excessive muscle, and will fail, repeatedly at any waza we as intructors may show them.

As for boxers, yes I have sparred against them, many times. It is not a special privilege. I have beaten some and I have met with less success against others, usually when the rules were restricted to favor their weapons. There are more than enough waza in kata to take out the advantage of a boxer, Pinan godan, Naifanchi 1-3, seyuinchin, etc. Basically anything with kiba dachi or shiko dachi will put you in a position to neutralize most boxers (world champion material is at a completely different level, and I have yet to meet a Tyson, Hollyfield, Leonard, Comacho, etc. in any of my practices).

You say that hikite is not used in boxing. That is wrong, period. You are treating hikite, as I said in my post, as te waza, and yes I know what hikite means. I also know that gedan barai uke means lower sweeping block, is that what I am to use it for every time? Should we confuse common names with absolute function?

When you pull someone in with hikite are you just using your arm? I hope all of your students are large, because none of your smaller sudents will have a prayer in doing so and will die or be seriously injured in defending themselves.

Hikite describes the finished product it is a common name applied to a finishing position, getting to that finishing position requires use of sabaki, hip and shoulder alignment, etc. which was the point of my post and those of others others. Hikite is not accomplished by moving the arm, it is accomplished by positioning the body correctly as a unit. If you simply hike your hand back then you are relying on arm strength, then you are executing poor body dynamics.
I assure you, boxers do this with their retreating shoulder on every punch. That is the same as hikite, that is the fundamental (most basic) level of hikite.

I realize my post may have seemed rude, but your post seemed equally so, if not more. This is exceptionally true because instead of picking up on the point of our posts, you simply attempted to mow everyone over with your point of view, which I am sure is very informed. Furthermore you insinuated that we were all stupid through your words, and that we would all be easily defeated by you as a result of our stupidity. If you cannot understand why we would be upset, then so be it.

The person asking the original question deserves a complete answer. This ranges from the most advanced application to the basic body dynamics involved in fundamental movements (taikyoku).

I hope that clarifies my position and intent. I look forward to further discussion with you, as you are obviously a seasoned practitioner. Hopefully, you can do the same.

Glenn R. Manry

Hank Irwin
5th March 2001, 17:34
Vengul Sensei. I agree with you whole-heartedly. There is NO wasted motion in kata, at least not in Okinawan kata! The Japanese MA kata is "full" of technique that has no application, that's because they DON'T know it. Grabs of different variety, elbows, and such ARE the hikite spoken of. IMO, from what I have been taught, that is.

gmanry
5th March 2001, 19:48
I agree, whole heartedly, and let me say that I hope that Mr. Vengel returns to the thread.

Hikite represents many different controling and striking maneuvers, many more than I have seen yet, I am sure.

However, would you all agree that to apply these various techniques, it is necessary to integrate the movement of the entire body in balance to accomplish them. If that is true, then the basic hikite seen in kata is not just a hitching back of the arm at the shoulder and elbow, but a movement done in conjunction with the movement of shoulder, hips, and feet.

Now, the way I teach and was taught is a lot less square shouldered than some other styles and very relaxed through the skeletal structure. So, maybe I am talking stylistic apples and oranges. I don' t know.

Also, right now I am really working on fundamentals with some beginning students and it is all on my mind. So, if I am harping this it is just do to my focus at the moment. I have to start them somewhere. Of course already they have learned to use it to control and cover the opponents other weaponse in transition from movement to movement. So, they are making some small progress over the last few weeks. :-)

Thoughts?

Glenn R. Manry

Hank Irwin
6th March 2001, 00:39
So many areas we could go into regarding the trapping hand. Many times it it used in conjunction with a strike or takedown. Is also used with a straight up posture also. It is a reaching out and grabbing technique also, meant to pull you in or to pull you by, or to actually re-direct your force. All the time touching and pressuring what is grabbed. Body-change is necessary for this. Not so much "koshi-waza". Straight up standing defending one's self this decription would apply. It only takes pin-point grabbing and shifting/stepping left or right. You would pull more across the body than to the hip anyway. Using your body to "pin" your opponent against his/her self. One good example is hair grab. You would try to pull to your hip? I don't think so. Old concepts were to hide what was "possibly" in your "trapping" hand. Maybe ChishikunBo, Jiffa? This trapping hand/te-uke is how I was explained on the concept. Hikite can and is a very interesting subject, when explored properly. It teaches much about Okinawan grappling to say the least. Many of us that are Uchina MA's believe that this "balance" of hands like in your regular punching routines was created by the Japanese, not really realizing the actual application. Just because the Japanese had to have everything balanced, organized, in harmony. But for one's own self we need to seek out every little nook and cranny, that's were the technique is.