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James Williams
7th December 2007, 19:13
Gentlemen,

Please excuse my delay in replying to the thread that was on this forum. I was heavily tasked in Japan and behind on a number of things when I returned CONUS on Sunday.

It appears that my view of martial arts is from a very different perspective than some on this forum. I study Samurai bujutsu as an art of war. Training in the sword is the foundation of this training and I train with the sword, with the full intention of prevailing in an edged weapon engagement. This is a classical perspective. As kenjutsu is the omote so then is jujutsu the ura. As this is the case all empty hand and small weapon techniques are done exactly the same way as the kenjutsu. Striking, locking, throwing, even strangulation techniques come directly from kenjutsu and this is easily recognized when observing the technique. I do not believe, and have not seen demonstrated by anyone, that it is possible to study Samurai bujutsu from a different perspective and fully understand and make practically functional the Samurai military arts that they evolved over centuries.

The mindset of martial arts in Japan has changed a great deal from those of their Samurai ancestors. This change in mindset and technique is readily visible, with a few notable exceptions, in modern Japanese dojo. This change of mindset and technique is even expressed in the Japanese constitution.

Mars was the God of war. The Martial Arts were originally arts of War. This is not the case in 99% of what is now called "Martial arts". War is about killing people and breaking things, art is the ability to do this to your opponent without having them do that to you. We use the broad term Martial arts for a number of different practices that have some relationship to what were once arts studied for War. Self Defense, sport based competition, controlled environment sport fighting (UFC etc.), exercise and esoteric practice all make up what we call Martial Arts today. These are obviously very different practices and take a different set of skills and mindset. There is some crossover however none of these are arts of War.

Most marital arts still have some method for gaining actual physical competency. This involves some physical contesting at the very least. To think that you could challenge or disparage someone's art or ability and then become self-righteous about proving your ability in some form or another is a relatively recent phenomenon and has gained a large following on the internet. For lack of a better term when referring to those who study what we call Japanese Sword Arts we could deem these Cyber Samurai. They are willing to engage in words written in cyber space but not willing to prove any real knowledge and ability. In martial arts ability is knowledge. If you can't do it you don't know it. This is not the Debate Team at your local high school.

I notice that there is a bit of a following from what we call Brazilian Jujutsu on this forum. I have known the Gracie's since the 1980's when no one knew who they were. Rorion Gracie's method of convincing people that his art worked was to get on the mat and go at it. There was a bit of pain involved and depending upon your self-view perhaps some embarrassment. However if you really want to know what you can do you have to do it. In the early days there where any number of dojo encounters of various degrees of force applied as there is only one way to truly prove your art and ability. I cannot count the number of times over my almost 5 decades in the Marital Arts where I have proved my ability or at times was shown that perhaps there was more for me to learn. These lessons given or learned came with some degree or another of physical pain and sometimes injury. I do not understand the current mindset that when a person would be asked to prove their ability by some method or another when calling someone's honor into question they respond with indignation and avoid any real demonstration of their ability. Perhaps it is that if you do not have honor, and therefore the potential for shame, that you just don't understand that you are a Cyber Samurai. Your ability to post, quote, or feel self righteous gives you the feeling that you have a "right" to express your opinion with no consequence. This of course removes the foundations of courtesy and respect. It becomes about how you “feel”.

When the real world hits you the training and mindset that you get in your dojo and the internet will not have prepared you for how fast and ugly things can go sideways. When you are in a dark alley late at night, and you feel the bite and burn of sharp steel on your body you realize that you could die in this place it had better fire your blood as the sharp piece of steel in your hand, and it's immediate and violent use, may be the only thing that gets you home. This is not your warm fuzzy dojo, or in a protected and controlled environment like UFC. There will be no tapping out here and right and wrong will be very clearly defined.

In the Western world especially there are a majority of people who are protected by our Samurai, those who serve. These warriors still have the need to study arts of War. I am honored to work with a number of our Special Operations units in just this type of endeavor. The responsibility that comes with teaching men of this caliber, ability, and mission is immense. People may live or die with what you teach them. If you have seen men die violently. If you have buried fallen comrades, if you have delivered the message of their death to their loved ones after they have been killed in combat action, and had to tell them how the Secretary of the Army wishes to express his regrets, you know what an enormous responsibility this teaching is. Nothing in your life is so satisfying as having someone that you trained return from battle and tell you that something that you taught them saved their life or the life of one of their comrades in arms. I have sons, I know the look on a parents face when they are told, by me, that their son will not be returning to them. I do not want someone to have to tell the wife, or parents of someone I trained about the Secretary of the Army's regrets.

What this means for me is that everything I do, know, study, and train for must be the best and most functional strategy, mindset, and technique that it can possibly be. Nothing can be 'made up", you have to know it will work and the best thing is to have personal knowledge that it will in fact work and work better than your enemies. To think that the vast storehouse of knowledge that our ancestors gained from warrior societies is no longer viable in modern combat is a big mistake. Samurai warrior culture has an enormous number of hidden treasures that are valuable in the modern warfare environment. I have gotten extremely positive AARs from my guys who have used this strategy and techniques in battle.

I have either a sword or a gun in my hand most days. My primary job is training and teaching Martial Arts. I use the knowledge and techniques that I have learned from classical Samurai bujutsu when teaching Close Quarters Battle. I have been extremely fortunate in having some exceptional teachers including Kuroda Tetsuzan, with whom I currently train, who is a truly phenomenal swordsman. If you want to know what Nami ryu is and what it's roots are you can go to my Nami ryu website and read about it. It is public knowledge and demonstrated in public forums many times every year. If you attend the Atlanta Blade show, or other demo's, you will be able to ask questions and see specific techniques or solutions. There is no false or hidden agenda and our dojo is always open. If you wish to visit and observe, you are welcome.

If anyone has specific questions please feel free to ask. I cannot or will not answer everything, specific units trained, or some of the things that I have done however most questions I will happily answer.

Much of this was composed in my mind late at night at the Sensoji after it was closed. I was sitting in the dark reflecting on many things including the contrast between this old temple and the surrounding city. It reflects in many ways the change and contrast in the Japanese mindset and martial arts as well. I have a great respect for the ancient ways and methods of the Samurai. They are however not at all common here even in dojo teaching JSA. There are some magnificent exceptions however in my experience they are not popular or common. My personal opinion is that the interest of gaijin has actually brought attention to some of these arts by the Japanese who are beginning to realize the value of some of their historical treasures.

Sincerely,

James Williams

gcarson
8th December 2007, 07:45
Excellent post.

While I do not have the kind of pedigree in my training history that you have, the substance of your post hits home for me. I do my best to pressure test everything I practice and not to pass along anything that I am not willing to 'throw down' with. Understand that I claim no great level of skill in any area, but I hope to continue to improve by following this type of path, although I consider myself more a Budo practitioner as my hands-on knowledge of traditional Bujutsu is minimal at best.

Also its nice to see that some folks on this forum share my opinion of 'keyboard warriors'. I remember being told numerous times as a kid growing up that if you wanted to run your mouth off without the ability to back it up, you had better be able to run your ass off. Again, I am no-uber tough guy, and indeed avoid conflict whenever possible, but if I call someone out(which isn't something I do generally), I am already prepared to back up my comments.

If people want to say it goes against Budo spirit to stand up for yourself and call people who run you down on the mats for doing so, then I will happily pursue my 赤首武道 (as stated by a previous poster).

Mr.Williams, hats off to you.

Jeff Cook
8th December 2007, 11:46
Mr. Williams, thank you for your service to the US Military.

I have a few questions for you. How do you integrate sword work into effective combatives training?

What part of kenjutsu training does shimewaza originate from?

What are your qualifications/mandate to teach close quarter battle to military personnel?

How did you pressure-test the techniques and principles prior to teaching military personnel bound for a combat zone?

Do you have any of the AARs in writing that you refer to in your post? I would be very interested in reading those.

Just so you understand my motivation for asking these questions, I am Active Duty, and a certified Modern Army Combatives Program Instructor (in addition to being a classical/gendai martial arts instructor and a long-time student of BJJ). I too have prepared many troops for combat, and have received a pethora of positive feedback (there are some great AARs on the CALL website). My questions are driven by curiosity, and also by my intense desire to improve training to enhance the effectiveness and survivability of my troops.

My background with personal combat, i.e. "field-testing" and "pressure testing" techniques, outside of martial arts training, is through my experience as a high-risk security operative/consultant for 18 years now - with hundreds of "hands-on" engagements under my belt - including bladed weapons and firearms. (Again, I feel that it is important that you know a bit about my background so you understand why I am asking these questions.)

Jeff Cook

Jeff Cook
8th December 2007, 11:53
"If people want to say it goes against Budo spirit to stand up for yourself and call people who run you down on the mats for doing so, then I will happily pursue my 赤首武道 (as stated by a previous poster)."

I HIGHLY recommend we don't go there again. That thread was locked, and Mr. Williams has opened a topic with a non-confrontational tone (as opposed to the tone of the locked thread). He does not want to answer the questions posed to him. That is his right. Antagonizing the people who asked those questions here is counterproductive. The insinuations in yours and Mr. Williams post can be seen as being critical of the people who asked questions in another thread. Unless you guys want to go back into that messy realm and invite the same criticism, and still not deliver any answers to those questions, then I suggest this stays on-topic with no reference to what happened before.

Jeff Cook

Woody
8th December 2007, 15:41
Mr. Williams, you speak of the “arts of war” as though you are very familiar with them and in fact seem to consider yourself an expert in them. All well and good but I’m not sure you fully understand the concept of “modern” warfare. Modern warfare is much more complex than it was in ancient Japan. Having spent a good deal of my life studying, repairing and maintaining many types of electronic warfare and countermeasures equipment I would suggest that you are focusing on a very limited aspect of modern martial arts. It might even be that what you are studying is a very insignificant aspect of modern warfare. In all likelihood, before you arrive on the scene with your sword and gun, the “cyber warriors” would have already tracked your every movement from start to finish. They may also have “taken you out” anywhere in between with a myriad of modern weapons that you would probably not see or hear until it was too late. You’re right, this not the Debate Team at our local high school; this is modern warfare.
On a side note; if all it takes to get you to visit my little dojo in the middle of nowhere is for me to issue a challenge, then I have a challenge for you. Teach me what you know. My dojo is always open to you. I would love to learn from you.
Sincerely,

MarkF
10th December 2007, 03:06
A short note for those responing: If you want to invite someone to play at your house, that's all fine and dandy, but I am warning you now that if this is what you want to do, please do so off board or in PM. Share what you want here, that is what "here" is for. Anything else should be written and reread to make sure it is what you would expect from others. You also have tools which will leave you blind as to what a poster says if you don't like his/her words in general. This thread will be watched closely.

roninseb
10th December 2007, 05:31
Well what is there to say? Only that you got me dizzy with all your combat and Samurai honor and proving your skills and training to attack and defend etc…

If you want to be in the military business of training troops, police, paramilitary or civilians for modern combat and warfare by all means. My opinion is that this is useless and only brings more violence and hate but hey everybody has different opinions and this is not my main point.

My main point is that you are mixing koryu bujutsu well the one that you made up with modern warfare and your whole discourse is just a mix up of your own delusions about what Traditional martial arts and ways are and how you think they fit with modern warfare and the fact the you seem to need to prove your ability to use swords etc. this is just pointless and shows you really have only surface knowledge regardless of all the supposed knowledge you want to claim.

Modern warfare has nothing to do with samurais and the bushido and whatever fantasies you are having about the 47 ronins and falling sakura flowers.

In Japan the 47 ronins are a 50%/50% deal some people who are seen as some Japanese rednecks will venerate them and other will see them as fools that were just applying a blind revenge that would go nowhere. If truly they were into honoring their Daimyo they would have worked hard with all the means they had to be good citizens and raise their family and not go out on a planned vendetta leaving their wife and kids. If you think being a Bushi/Samurai is about revenge combat etc.. and balls and cheap taste Honor like in most Chanbara movie you are sadly mistaken since it is much more complicated than what you think since all you seem to see as the real thing is a romanticized vision of what Samurai culture is not and never really was.

Now I am going to take this to another level and would like to get the input of some other American citizen. Why is it that Mr. Williams discourse is all intermixed with combat war defending our country all with samurai honor etc. I have never heard of such a thing here in Canada and have never seen this type of bad taste. Why is it that we seem to see this kind of crap Budo mixed with patriotism mostly in the U.S only or are those people just a small very vocal and visible minority please tell me it is so.

Josh Reyer
10th December 2007, 07:14
THREAD DRIFT ALERT


In Japan the 47 ronins are a 50%/50% deal some people who are seen as some Japanese rednecks will venerate them and other will see them as fools that were just applying a blind revenge that would go nowhere. If truly they were into honoring their Daimyo they would have worked hard with all the means they had to be good citizens and raise their family and not go out on a planned vendetta leaving their wife and kids.

I would disagree with a basic premise that 50% of the Japanese have a positive view of the Ako Roshi and 50% have a negative view of it, let alone the idea that any Japanese person with a modicrum of information on the subject believes they should have just been "good citizens, and worked hard for their families". In fact, that sounds a lot like the point of a view of a western person who doesn't know a lot of the background.

"Kataki-uchi" or "ada-uchi" was a perfectly legal and accepted practice through much of the medieval period, even having bureaucratic procedures to be followed. The practice had only been recently banned in the Edo period when the Ako incident took place. The prevailing law of that time was kenka ryouseibai - equal fault in the case of any kind of altercation. However, after Asano (Lord of Ako) attacked Kira, Kira received no punishment, and Asano was given the unprecedently harsh punishment of seppuku on that very dayand the dissolution of his house and clan. This is what motivated the Ako Roshi. The first could be withstood, and perhaps only a few, aged, top retainers might commit junshi in protest. But the second meant that all of his retainers, hundreds of them, were out of work. Asano's relatives and remaining top retainers (like Oishi) attempted to get the house and clan restored. In the stories it's often suggested that the ronin waited a year in order to catch Kira by surprise, but the truth was that it was during this year that they attempted to restore the Ako clan by conventional means. However, these hopes were dashed when Asano's brother, Daigaku, was placed in confinement as part of the punishment.

The goal of the kataki-uchi was to protest the unfairly harsh penalty imposed on the Asano clan, and to restore the house and clan so that the out of work samurai could be be good citizens, and work for their families. And the roshi were very proper about how they did things, turning themselves in afterwards, so that their actions would be recognized for the protest it was, and not mere revenge. And this is why the 47 ronin have been largely admired through history, including today. Not because they killed the guy who killed their lord, but because they did it and sacrificed their lives for the good of the entire Ako-han.

And it worked. Daigaku was eventually pardoned, and the house and clan was restored, if a bit smaller than it was at its height. That's the thing about Sengoku and early Edo bushi and their "bushido". It was never about "honor" or "death", or even necessarily "loyalty". It was about getting something accomplished.


Now I am going to take this to another level and would like to get the input of some other American citizen. Why is it that Mr. Williams discourse is all intermixed with combat war defending our country all with samurai honor etc. I have never heard of such a thing here in Canada and have never seen this type of bad taste. Why is it that we seem to see this kind of crap Budo mixed with patriotism mostly in the U.S only or are those people just a small very vocal and visible minority please tell me it is so.
I would not presume to speak for Mr. Williams. But I imagine that if you see a high degree of patriotism among American martial artists, it is probably because a good many have spent time in the U.S. military and/or have ties there. There are also many in law enforcement. I see it less as bad taste and more as attempting to find a viable and useful outlet for their martial studies.

roninseb
10th December 2007, 08:23
I guess you are just not seeing my point in the way it was intended. So the thread drift alert is actually mostly YOUR contribution.

My intention was to show that Mr. Williams has a very romanticized vision of Japanese martial ways and since he had concluded his post with the fact he wrote this while he was at the Sensoji.

And making a reference to the Ako Roshi was I guess well timed. All the points you are writing on are all true nice fine and dandy. But the fact remains that many Japanese are ambivalent when it comes to the 47 Ronin and revenge seppuku etc. From what I have witnessed you have mainly 2 camps the all Tenno heika Banzai we are Samurai type and the others who support my point.


THREAD DRIFT ALERT



I would disagree with a basic premise that 50% of the Japanese have a positive view of the Ako Roshi and 50% have a negative view of it, let alone the idea that any Japanese person with a modicrum of information on the subject believes they should have just been "good citizens, and worked hard for their families". In fact, that sounds a lot like the point of a view of a western person who doesn't know a lot of the background.

"Kataki-uchi" or "ada-uchi" was a perfectly legal and accepted practice through much of the medieval period, even having bureaucratic procedures to be followed. The practice had only been recently banned in the Edo period when the Ako incident took place. The prevailing law of that time was kenka ryouseibai - equal fault in the case of any kind of altercation. However, after Asano (Lord of Ako) attacked Kira, Kira received no punishment, and Asano was given the unprecedently harsh punishment of seppuku on that very dayand the dissolution of his house and clan. This is what motivated the Ako Roshi. The first could be withstood, and perhaps only a few, aged, top retainers might commit junshi in protest. But the second meant that all of his retainers, hundreds of them, were out of work. Asano's relatives and remaining top retainers (like Oishi) attempted to get the house and clan restored. In the stories it's often suggested that the ronin waited a year in order to catch Kira by surprise, but the truth was that it was during this year that they attempted to restore the Ako clan by conventional means. However, these hopes were dashed when Asano's brother, Daigaku, was placed in confinement as part of the punishment.

The goal of the kataki-uchi was to protest the unfairly harsh penalty imposed on the Asano clan, and to restore the house and clan so that the out of work samurai could be be good citizens, and work for their families. And the roshi were very proper about how they did things, turning themselves in afterwards, so that their actions would be recognized for the protest it was, and not mere revenge. And this is why the 47 ronin have been largely admired through history, including today. Not because they killed the guy who killed their lord, but because they did it and sacrificed their lives for the good of the entire Ako-han.

And it worked. Daigaku was eventually pardoned, and the house and clan was restored, if a bit smaller than it was at its height. That's the thing about Sengoku and early Edo bushi and their "bushido". It was never about "honor" or "death", or even necessarily "loyalty". It was about getting something accomplished.


I would not presume to speak for Mr. Williams. But I imagine that if you see a high degree of patriotism among American martial artists, it is probably because a good many have spent time in the U.S. military and/or have ties there. There are also many in law enforcement. I see it less as bad taste and more as attempting to find a viable and useful outlet for their martial studies.

Jeff Cook
10th December 2007, 10:34
Now I am going to take this to another level and would like to get the input of some other American citizen. Why is it that Mr. Williams discourse is all intermixed with combat war defending our country all with samurai honor etc. I have never heard of such a thing here in Canada and have never seen this type of bad taste. Why is it that we seem to see this kind of crap Budo mixed with patriotism mostly in the U.S only or are those people just a small very vocal and visible minority please tell me it is so.

Well, I obviously cannot and will not speak for Mr. Williams on this. I am in the US military. We have our own code of honor - we do not have to import one. Also, the code of bushido is a fairly modern invention, from what I understand. I would suspect that discerning what the ancient samurai honor code truly was, is a lot of guesswork as is most history that has ambiguous written records.

Before anyone asks: No, I do not mix my ju-jitsu with patriotism. I personally don't see a problem with instilling patriotism in one's students though. Lots of countries do it.

Jeff Cook

Jeff Cook
10th December 2007, 10:39
Oh, Mr. Williams, two more questions for you: what is your BJJ rank, and who do you train in BJJ under? Thanks!

Jeff Cook

Josh Reyer
10th December 2007, 10:54
I guess you are just not seeing my point in the way it was intended. So the thread drift alert is actually mostly YOUR contribution.

Indeed, which is why I said "Thread Drift Alert". I was announcing that I was going on a historical tangent. And I think I see your point just fine. I just disagree with it.


My intention was to show that Mr. Williams has a very romanticized vision of Japanese martial ways and since he had concluded his post with the fact he wrote this while he was at the Sensoji.

The implication I take from such a reference, if anything, is that Mr. Williams likes to hit the major tourist spots when he visits Japan.


But the fact remains that many Japanese are ambivalent when it comes to the 47 Ronin and revenge seppuku etc. From what I have witnessed you have mainly 2 camps the all Tenno heika Banzai we are Samurai type and the others who support my point.

And I continue to disagree. I've lived here five years, have been associating with Japanese people, budo enthusiast and otherwise, for 13 years, and I absolutely have not seen what you maintain. I've heard many say it was tragic that they gave up their lives to get Kira's, but none say, "They were stupid; they should have forewent the ada-uchi and taken care of their families."

gcarson
10th December 2007, 11:00
From what I have witnessed you have mainly 2 camps the all Tenno heika Banzai we are Samurai type and the others who support my point.

Sebastion : I think you hit the 'problem' right on the head with this statement, but not just in reference to Japanese, but to all practitioners everywhere. There seems to be 2 main camps of practitioners in general :

Camp 1 = Those who focus on a sincere physical practice (that could create spiritual refinement), but who consider the spiritual refinement as a secondary benefit, not a primary concern.

Camp 2 = Those who feel the entire(or most important) point of the practice IS the spiritual refinement and focus their training towards those ends.

Although I openly admit that my own focus tends towards camp 1, I don't believe that one is better than the other. For me 1 is better and for someone else 2 is. But they can't really be compared very well directly, sort of apples & oranges.

Thats not a bad thing either until I decide to trash talk just because they don't do it my way. I also find all this talk of 'proper spirit and attitude' somewhat contradictory to the insulting/condescending tones and comments being tossed around freely in this thread and the last as well.

By all means ask questions about peoples credentials, thats just good common sense. Once you have your answers, make up your own mind about the person's training/lineage etc. That's my impression of one of the main functions of (sincere & quality) online forums, like this one.

Jeff : I wasn't insinuating anything. If you talk crap about someone's skills/credentials, then I honestly feel that you should be willing to back up that behaviour with proof of your superior skills/knowledge. I also disagree that we should ignore the thread that lead up to this one as that would mean leaving out the antagonizing comments that lead to Mr.Williams creating this thread.

I don't know and have never met James, indeed the previous thread was my first exposure to him. Since then I have looked up most of the people who regularly commented (google-wise that is) to try to get a better perspective on motives and backgrounds of the various personalities involved. I am trying not to be overly presumptuous, I kind of get the feeling that there are some agendas here I am not fully aware of.

Anyway I am done here. Most of you (those I googled anyway) have much longer and more indepth training history than I do. I was just discussing my opinion on a forum for...well...discussing opinions. I get the distinct impression, however, from these last two threads that my opinion is not welcome, and the vindictive attitude coming across has somewhat soured my perspective of E-budo as a whole. That's ok, I probably have wasted too much time on the internet lately anyhow.

Best wishes for all

Cheers

roninseb
10th December 2007, 11:14
I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.

The crowd I hang around with in Japan was basically of the ambivalent type and did not have much regards for people like The 47 Ronin or the Shinsengumi etc... But more for people like Katsu Kaishu , Yamaoka Teshu and Saigo Takamori.

In any case their point was that this type of blind self sacrifice was not very reflective of true warrior ethics.

Anyhow back to the main topic I guess.

Indeed, which is why I said "Thread Drift Alert". I was announcing that I was going on a historical tangent. And I think I see your point just fine. I just disagree with it.



The implication I take from such a reference, if anything, is that Mr. Williams likes to hit the major tourist spots when he visits Japan.



And I continue to disagree. I've lived here five years, have been associating with Japanese people, budo enthusiast and otherwise, for 13 years, and I absolutely have not seen what you maintain. I've heard many say it was tragic that they gave up their lives to get Kira's, but none say, "They were stupid; they should have forewent the ada-uchi and taken care of their families."

Tom Karazozis
10th December 2007, 13:20
It appears that my view of martial arts is from a very different perspective than some on this forum. I study Samurai bujutsu as an art of war. Training in the sword is the foundation of this training and I train with the sword, with the full intention of prevailing in an edged weapon engagement...

Yes it appears so, but not only in this forum. I would say that even some of the most renowned sensei in Japan that have been preserving a direct lineage that has been passed down for a number of generations would disagree with you on this. 'Prevailing' and killing for the sole purpose of proving your skills is evil and selfish. You cannot win with this type of mind-set. If you claim that 99% of Japanese dojo in Japan are not viewing it in a classical perspective, than you should find another dojo because it seems that you have not visited any dojo where they do infact keep things real, but will not try and prove their machismo skills on anyone, it just doesn't work that way here.

Chanto benkyo shite kudasai!




This is I do not believe, and have not seen demonstrated by anyone, that it is possible to study Samurai bujutsu from a different perspective and fully understand and make practically functional the Samurai military arts that they evolved over centuries...

Well, here you go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IreQsNHSoK8&feature=related

start viewing it at 7min55sec. This is Otake Sensei, head of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. It seems from his perspective that he totally disagrees with you.





When the real world hits you the training and mindset that you get in your dojo and the internet will not have prepared you for how fast and ugly things can go sideways. When you are in a dark alley late at night, and you feel the bite and burn of sharp steel on your body you realize that you could die in this place it had better fire your blood as the sharp piece of steel in your hand, and it's immediate and violent use...

OK this dark alley late at night thing really gives me the impression of you having a mental problem and living in fear and paranoia.

And last but not least, NOO I am not a cyber Samurai because first of all I am not A SAMURAI!!! grow up! YOU are not one either. This class was abolished, give it up already.

Jeff Cook
10th December 2007, 23:32
Greg, you and I agree more than you know. ;)

Regarding "camp 1" and "camp 2" - you just very neatly described the difference between -jutsu and -do.

Jeff Cook

roninseb
12th December 2007, 01:19
Here is what a credible teacher of Mugai Ryu in Japan thinks of Nami-Ryu

QUOTE(After dinner we can back to the house and watched the Nami-ryu DVD. Niina-gosoke was...amused. He figured all the kids who are into anime can do Nami-ryu and play samurai and have fun, and that's cool, as long as the don't think they're actually learning anything that real samurai were doing.)

Original Link
http://www.giveyourmeat.com/search?q=nami+ryu

yoj
12th December 2007, 01:49
I'd be interested to hear Ellis Amdur's views, not because I am interested in any controversy, just that he seems to have his foot firmly in a lot of camps, and could opine eloquently....

Jeff Cook
12th December 2007, 02:30
I would settle for having Mr. Williams answer my questions.

Jeff Cook

Jim O'Connell
12th December 2007, 04:39
First off, I am a long time student of Mr. Williams - long time is 13 years at present, following 20 years of training in martial arts under the tutelage of other talented and honorable teachers. I am also an instructor of Nami ryu Aiki Heiho.

In the initial thread, Mr. Williams did not challenge Tom Karozosis to a duel. You might note that the moderators in that thread did not read beyond the black and white; and I would humbly suggest that others follow their example in this thread. Mr. Williams was challenging Mr. Karozosis to act like a man and present himself in person, and demonstrate (not duel, not challenge to a fight, not threat to do harm…..) his capacity and reason for making such disparaging statements. He makes new disparaging statements in this thread – but then, James Williams is no longer in Japan.

Mr. Cyr and Mr. Karozozis continue to make statements in this thread that do not come from reading what is written, but from their interpretations of what is written. They use the terms “bushido” and “koryu” openly. On the other hand those words are not used in what is written at this thread’s start.

Yes, as was noted by another writer in this thread: they have an agenda. (That is my opinion – but if I am wrong, why are they so bothered by what Mr. Wiliams and Nami ryu purport?) The last I checked they are not koryu official, or e-budo appointed, arbiters of what is acceptable in martial arts, koryu, Japanese culture, martial culture, or Japanese history. Actually, my opinion is that it is Mr. Karozosis and Mr. Cyr’s “Camp 2” agenda – which I do not believe to be openly shared by most martial artists or to be reflective of the Japanese psyche. I have been to Japan too, trained in koryu there; and gosh, I was even challenged on one of those training occasions to physically prove myself by a Japanese national one of the evenings between the keiko and dinner. I was thanked by all of my sempai present at that encounter for taking a particularly aggressive youngster down a notch. It wasn’t easy and could have gone the other way. I am not particularly skilled, so I just have to keep training. It wasn’t a dark alley, but I could have been hurt. No one was injured and everyone was, and still are, friends afterwards. I train with both reasonable and honorable people.

James offered to discuss in person and demonstrate or be demonstrated to by Mr. Karozosis; and offered to come to him in Japan, suggesting that he would take the brunt of travel to discuss this topic in person – like men. Mr. Robinson, who is a also a student of Mr. Williams, publicly offered Mr. Karozozis an invitation to visit and even stay at his house. Mr. Williams, as well as many of us in Nami ryu; demonstrate openly, are not afraid to have visitors (if they are really good we ask them to be guest instructors), and certainly feel that honorable men have the right to stand up, and duty to be accountable for, their statements in person when called upon. We post our schedule openly, have attended every Aiki Expo, support local dojo that ask us to demonstrate, explain clearly what our basis for training is, and do not claim a right to existence other than demonstrating our ability to do or not.

Nami ryu Aiki Heiho does not consider itself budo, but instead bujutsu, (both are terms that have no clear or universally accepted meanings in practical use - but stated here to illustrate our view point). Since Nami ryu does not consider itself budo, and is not koryu (please go to http://www.namiryu.com/origins.html (http://www.namiryu.com/origins.html)to see what Nami ryu is) we do not feel a need to conform to Mr. Cyr’s point of view on what is right or wrong either. We do not share or even agree with his assertions of what Budo is; however, since we do not claim to be budoka, he is welcome to claim those assertions for himself. If they work for others reading this, then you are welcome to those beliefs, and can subscribe to them openly without insisting that everyone else must accept them as well. What I personally can’t fathom, is why anyone would train with a sword or any form of martial arts; and claim that proficiency, ability, mindset, or application are less important than spiritual growth. I believe that spiritual growth begins with the truth, and therefore training with a sword calls for developing a realistic ability that can be used widely and systematically. To quote a Western book accepted by many in Japan:” Faith without works is dead”.

If Budo means you are not responsible for making statements in public forums, cannot respond in person to people who challenge your statements; I would not want to claim it anyway. I personally believe that is not what Budo is, but I don’t claim to tell others what they are supposed to believe; nor do I feel that my opinions are so important that disparaging others is my right because I bought a sword or learned some kata. I also would not presume to tell anyone what Japanese believe about the Chushingara; however, I would note that they have made a number of movies about the event and have a museum and shrine at their gravesite. I too have been there on a three occasions, and no one passed me the pamphlet that explained that its purpose is proof of the wrongness of the people buried there. There must be some reason for that, but I won’t presume to tell everyone here what I think that is by stating my opinion as fact.

Mr, Cyr and Mr. Karozosis: Will my opinion make you angry enough to call me names too? Go ahead; you can even make disparaging remarks in Japanese to or about me. Maybe, if I am lucky, Ren Kuroda can make disparaging remarks about me on his blog as well. On the other hand he was very polite and well mannered the times he has visited with us in California. One thing about Ren and his teacher – they at least put up videos (please search youtube and /or google and look at them) of their performance as proof of their ability, and you can review those videos along with Nami ryu videos on youtube to help judge their point of view. They do things differently and that doesn’t bother us at all.

Mr. Cyr and Mr. Karozosis, please accept my invitation to visit and have tea or coffee any time you find yourselves in California. I won’t ask you on the mat, I won’t call you names, I won’t make disparaging remarks about your style of martial arts, and I won’t tell you or demonstrate any thing that will cause you to feel threatened in any way

Regards,
Jim O'Connell

roninseb
12th December 2007, 08:25
Well I have to say your post is very well written and that you have put lots of time defending what you believe is right. You have the right to do and practice what you want. We also have the right to our opinion and also express our feelings about Nami-Ryu as well. Especially when its status is not clear.

You state that Nami-Ryu is not a Koryu or Budo etc. But the big issue here is that this is all that is claimed when we get exposed to Nami-Ryu in text or video that it’s an all-traditional martial arts etc. Traditional Samurai Bujutsu or Budo = Koryu and that’s all.

Now it seems that all you or Mr. Williams are talking about is to PROVE what one’s ability is on the mat in video or any other feasible media. In my opinion when you do Koryu you don’t need to prove anything to anyone and this is the idea I got from all the teachers I met and that to them if you go all out about proving yourself or you made up legitimacy then its that you are on the wrong path.

So when you talk about other schools like the Mugai-Ryu that Renfield Kuroda practices has videos out to prove their techniques etc. I don’t feel that them or any other school that puts out video on the web has done it directly to prove that they are good or better or more REAL then anyone else. In my opinion they must have done this since nowadays it is easy to do and his seen as good promotion towards getting new students nothing to do with proving their technique.

Will I call you names or start to get it on with you with my hidden agenda. I don’t believe or respect what you practice but you did not come on here trying to spread you love of war and warfare and trying to prove us that you are a modern warrior studying martial ways to enable you to be in a battle and spread your patriotism and political ideas etc. and THIS I TRULY RESPECT.

For the record since you believe Mr. Karazosis or me are no authorities in Budo or have no credentials because we do not spread or sell ourselves out there with videos books or any type of products then its al fine. So you can consider that we both know nothing in this case. Am I going to splatter around all that I know or studied etc. to make my point well NO because I should be able to state my opinion and my ideas without needing to add my credentials to put more weight on my opinions.

So in the end lets just say I know nothing or not much.


So thank you very much for your cordial invitation for tea if I ever get to California next year and most likely it will happen since I work on some projects that will require me to get there I might take you up on that occasion. Will we talk about Budo? If you ask maybe but I would rather talk about life and what is really important in humanity much more than war and warfare and how to use it. Who knows I might change your views or maybe you will change mine.
I will leave you with the following poem.

乾坤無地卓孤筇
喜得人空法亦空
珍重大元三尺剣
電光影裡斬春風

Throughout heaven and earth there is not a piece of ground where a single stick could be inserted;
I am glad that all things are void, myself and the world:
Honored be the sword, three feet long, wielded by the great Yuan swordsmen;
For it is like cutting a spring breeze in a flash of lightning.

Jeff Cook
12th December 2007, 11:20
Jim, do you know if Mr. Williams is going to come back to this thread that he started and address some of these questions? Thanks.

Jeff Cook

Jim O'Connell
13th December 2007, 02:59
Jeff,

James is actively training police or military this week, either directly contracted or as part of the Surefire Institute, (http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/strfnbr/10/pgname/instructors- and is out of comm until the weekend. I am not sure where he went other than it was not originally scheduled. You can note some testimonials on that site. They are not AAR's but you can see some of the responses people in your line, or similar lines, of business have to training. You can also go to http://www.thesystemofstrategy.com/ and see some other testimonials from police and military. One thing I would note is that while in Japan, many of the JDF personnel James trained belong to koryu, which we consider to be ryu in existence before the Meiji Restoration. For point of reference - I am an insurance broker and have never been in the military.

I am not sure if James will come back to the thread, or directly answer your questions. It really just depends on how much travel the next hand full of weeks entails. Regarding BJJ: I don't know if James has any "rank" in BJJ - you will note that none is claimed or noted - however his training started in Rorion Gracies' garage. There is an article http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=90 that James wrote for Aikido Journal some years back that gives timeline and notes the relationship.


Regards,
Jim O'Connell

Jeff Cook
13th December 2007, 12:09
Thank you very much for the info, Jim! I thought I saw somewhere that BJJ is taught at his school; is he the instructor or is there someone else on staff?

Jeff Cook

Jim O'Connell
14th December 2007, 03:46
Jeff,

We do grapple at the dojo as part of of our training in Nami ryu and in the Systema/System of Strategy syllabus.

However, the separate BJJ group that has been at the DOTFW for many years has trained under the direction of Steve Neklia. Steve is not currently teaching a class at the DOTFW. Steve's connection is to Fabio Santos and Rickson Gracie. He was one of the judges at the very early UFC's.

Regards,
Jim

Aaron T
14th December 2007, 06:10
Ok that all sounds nice and romantic...but.....

If you give me a choice of who is on my side in a scrap,

10 rugby players or 10 PJ wearing "martial artists...."

I take the rugby players ever time.

Go ahead send me the hate-mail but so you know my perspective is as someone who practices both koryu and gendai.

What it really comes down to, is having a "go" gear. That gear can be learned in multiple ways. But no matter what arena you are playing in, you need to "practice at game speed" at some point, or your gonna get taken down.


Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

Cufaol
14th December 2007, 09:23
Gentlemen,
This is not your warm fuzzy dojo, or in a protected and controlled environment like UFC. There will be no tapping out here and right and wrong will be very clearly defined.


Sincerely,

James Williams

Just a quick note on the OP's text.

With all due respect,

UFC/Pride etc. are not what I would refer to as protected-controlled environments. When a guy is stomping his foot on my head, I don't care whether I'm lying on canvas or pavement. Honestly, these kind of events are the next best thing aside from reality. And in some instances, they even cross the line. imho ofcourse. :)

Anyway, great thread, great post. Thanks you mr. Williams.;)


cheers,

Jeff Cook
14th December 2007, 10:54
Jim, I've heard a lot of good things about Steve; I understand he is a journalist and a brown belt under Rickson. Thanks for the info!

Aaron, I agree with you totally.

Jeff Cook

cxt
14th December 2007, 15:24
Aaron T

Is that ANY "10 rugby players?" ;)

I only ask because there is a boxing club at the gym where I work out and the largest group of students (by far) are overweight business types, soccor moms doing "boxer--robics" kinda thing, and some college students that only hit classes maybe once a week--sure there are a few really serious types---but only a few--like maybe 3 and 2 of them are the teachers.

Not "hate mail" at all....least that is not how I mean it....what I'm getting at--perhaps poorly, is that a lot of these discussion tend to revolve around loosely defined terms--we ALL know what we mean when we use examples like "boxers"--but the examples tend to break down when you look at them closely.

When you say "rugby players" I think Manchester United or some such team.....but there is a group of guys that play rugby for a local HS and they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

I get what you mean and I agree with you overall BTW. :)

yoj
14th December 2007, 15:43
Man U is a football AKA soccer team.

MikeWilliams
14th December 2007, 17:10
Yep, you only have to look at one of them sideways and they fall over crying. Not much of a threat at all. :laugh:

Even recreational rugby players will have a decent pain threshold, so that counts in their favour, if nothing else.

Aaron T
14th December 2007, 18:13
Chris..


HA:D Good point, good on ya...

But as you said you get my point.

The other point that should be made to is relativity of combative application and skills within the context of the violence itself.

What is realm? Law enforcement, military, and civilian applications all change the desired goal, context of occurrence, and the subsequent skills required by the persons involved.

There is always crossover, but a person teaching cops or military might not be the best person to teach civilian.

I know I haven't been reflecting in the dark, but you know, I am a simple guy I'll settle for going to practice, walking home, and going to sleep.

Keep smiling, keep sweating, and for the love of all that is holy don't take ourselves to seriously.

Aaron "easy like Sunday morning" Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

cxt
14th December 2007, 18:43
yoj

Yeah, but I couldn't think of a rugby team.

Oops.

TonyU
14th December 2007, 19:30
Keep smiling, keep sweating, and for the love of all that is holy don't take ourselves to seriously.



Nice! Every once in awhile I need to remind myself of that.

Josh Reyer
15th December 2007, 03:23
Just a quick note on the OP's text.

With all due respect,

UFC/Pride etc. are not what I would refer to as protected-controlled environments. When a guy is stomping his foot on my head, I don't care whether I'm lying on canvas or pavement. Honestly, these kind of events are the next best thing aside from reality. And in some instances, they even cross the line. imho ofcourse. :)

After the guy stomps his foot on your head and you black out, is he allowed to stomp you again? If you are in the ring and find yourself outmatched by your opponent, are you allowed to utilize a weapon as an equalizer? Bites, head butts, groin attacks, hair pulling; are these okay?

UFC/Pride are certainly not warm and fuzzy, and they are certainly intense crucibles of skill and strength, and closer to reality than, say, boxing, greco-roman wrestling, or rugby, but IMO the great thing about MMA tournaments, the thing that keeps them from being distasteful bloodsports, is the very fact that they are protected and controlled environments, with the lives and livelihood of the participants held in very high regard, by fighters, organizers, and spectators alike.

No1'sShowMonkey
15th December 2007, 07:51
Ok that all sounds nice and romantic...but.....

If you give me a choice of who is on my side in a scrap,

10 rugby players or 10 PJ wearing "martial artists...."

I take the rugby players ever time.

What about us ruggers that also wear silly pajamas and get tossed into the mat?!? It takes a certain kind of guy to run from the pitch to a shower, rinse off and then run to the dojo and say "don't worry, I am already warmed up" when they get there just as class starts. God I don't know how my kidneys process all of the ibuprofen. I blame youth and vigor.

As far as the OP goes, I find it odd to think that so many martial artists, if the term martial is appropriate here, are so estranged from the idea of violence being the raison d'etre for their practice. Whether or not the violence is something that you personally cultivate does not change the fact that the path we walk was worn by men steeped in bloody traditions. They were who they were because of the things the did (ie killing)... Those that came after them were who they were because they trained under those rare and dangerous men. Somewhere, back in the begining, the truth was found in the killing.

Some how many people seem to have forgotten this, disregard it or whatever. Confuses me constantly.

Thats me opinion and to most it is worth very little. To bed for me... uke for four tests in one evening has left me a sore heap of bones.

- Chris McGaw

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~Ernest Hemingway

Maro
16th December 2007, 22:03
Man U is an Oikball team. Pampered.

Rugby is this:

http://www.rugbyheaven.com.au/ffximage/2007/09/17/Chabal_wideweb__470x350,0.jpg

john_lord_b3
19th December 2007, 04:10
I am a simple guy I'll settle for going to practice, walking home, and going to sleep. Keep smiling, keep sweating, and for the love of all that is holy don't take ourselves to seriously.


I agree completely, 100%... like one of my sigs used to say.. I practice traditional M.A to fill my spare time with something useful.. I don't even dare to dream of being the next Sokaku Takeda, Sarutobi Sasuke or Rickson Gracie.. If a thief breaks into my home I'll call police.. if I got harrased by a drunk in a bar I'll call security.. Only if a see a knife or a stick actually flew towards my weakling self that I will try to apply my M.A training.. and that happened to me only a handful time.. and that was long time ago during my young and stupid days (as opposed to my present old and stupid days).

Oh, BTW, the most effective M.A technique I discovered is the haya-ashi tai-sabaki.. (translation = RUN away quick!) :D :D :D

Jeff Cook
19th December 2007, 10:53
True and sensible. Some of us have jobs that require us to close with the enemy though. Mr. James Williams teaches classes and seminars to those kind of professionals, I understand. Thus my questions for him, as it takes on a higher level of importance when your life may actually depend on how well you have absorbed your lessons and how well you implement those lessons on a regular basis. (Not disagreeing with anything said here - just thinking out-loud.)

Jeff Cook