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warriorski
8th January 2001, 01:11
is the 5 dan test done in any other school the way it is
done in the bujinkan ???
steve

Tony Peters
8th January 2001, 01:27
Originally posted by warriorski
is the 5 dan test done in any other school the way it is
done in the bujinkan ???
steve

You ask a question about Ninpo in a forum dedicated to sword arts without giving us anything to compare it to. I for one have never seen Bujinkan in any form and the arts I study do not use the Dan/kyu system. Ask an educated question and you may get an answer.

MarkF
8th January 2001, 10:47
As far as I know, swords are used in the weapons based systems of most of the x-kans, but yes, you are really asking a question which should be posted in the "Teacher and Student forum, or dojo management, possibly (the former would be best). Steve, it would help immensely to expand your comment/question to include a description of the type of test you mean.

Also, Steve Welcome to the forum. Please use your full name when signing. Yor signature box can be configured for this function.:)

Mark

Stefan
8th January 2001, 11:27
Here we go - hope my English is good enough to explain properly:

The one who´s tested is sitting down on the floor. Soke´s standig behind him having a shinai in his hands and after a while he´s trying to hit you.

You´ve got to feel when he´s attacking you and to roll away.

Sounds simle, doesn´t it? But it realy isn´t SIMPLE...

And by the way: I think it was an "educated" question of warriorski. He just wanted to know if there are any equal testings within YOUR arts. So even the forum was the right one... :)

Chi
8th January 2001, 11:51
Lets elaborate a bit on that shall we... booj-ers please feel free to stop/correct me as I go, but I really don't think that last post put the emphasis of the test - note, this is not an insult to your english Stefan, and I hope you do not take it as such...

Its not just about the Soke whacking you with a shinai (and it used to be a live blade once upon a time or so I've heard)... the Bujinkan Godan test is also known as the "sakki" (note, not sake, although I'd expect one would need a drink after going through that ordeal :)) test - I'm not so sure of the literal meaning of this term, but it is to do with feeling the "killing intention". Perhaps it is ŽE‹C (Killing spirit)? I don't know personally.

The tester (in this case Hatsumi-sensei) wielding a sword-like weapon in a high stance (perhaps Jodan? I don't know for sure... incidentally, is it really a Shinai nowadays as opposed to a bokken? I can't imagine the same degree of anxiety being caused by a strike form a shinai as by a shinken :)) stands behind the student, who is sitting in Seiza ("sitting correctly (Japanese style)" posture). In a moment, and without warning, the tester will cut down with a vertical cut. The student is expected to a) feel the "sakki" and know the correct time to avoid and b) actually avoid the blow.

I am not really sure the original question was supposed to be taken as "does any other school do it like this", especially as related to koryu sword arts (and it has been mentioned that the kyu/dan rank system does not exist in some schools)... I think the question was more supposed to be is this kind of exercise/test part of advanced training in sword arts.

Note I am not a booj-er, let alone a high ranking one or one who has experienced this test first hand, so someone from the booj please feel free to correct my errors or omissions, or shed a little better insight on the principles behind the test...

Regards,

Chris.

Stefan
8th January 2001, 12:59
You´re right!

But I really wanted to describe the test mechanically - not the meaning, because I had the impression, that the question was, if there are any similar test regarding the "physical" procedure.

But you were right - the test is called Sakki-test, too. By passing it, your journey begins and you start to learn the essence of the art. You have mastered the technical side and are concentrating now on the art itself...

Chi
8th January 2001, 14:21
Originally posted by Stefan
But I really wanted to describe the test mechanically - not the meaning, because I had the impression, that the question was, if there are any similar test regarding the "physical" procedure.


Ah, my apologies if I have "tread on your toes" as such... I just thought an overview of the purpose of the test may aid experienced sword artists in determining whether there is a similar test in their art...

Regards,

Chris.

Stefan
8th January 2001, 15:04
You really don´t have to apologize. We are here on this board to talk and to share experience... ;)

Tony Peters
9th January 2001, 05:21
OK so I jumped a bit too hard but hell what am I supposed to think when someone asks "is the 5 dan test done in any other school the way it is done in the bujinkan" with on explanation as to how it is done. How the hell should I know and as was stated by me and someone else this topic area of e-budo is part of the Koryu Bujutsu section. I haven't run across very many Koryu arts that use the dan/kyu system and those were aiki related. When one asks a comparative question it is only proper to give something to compare it to.

Chi
9th January 2001, 09:58
Originally posted by Tony Peters
OK so I jumped a bit too hard but hell what am I supposed to think when someone asks "is the 5 dan test done in any other school the way it is done in the bujinkan" with on explanation as to how it is done.

Indeed, it is impossible to reply when you don't have the first clue as to what the question is chatting about ;) I'm sure if the roles were reversed, booj-peops would be equally stumped ("so, do you do anything in your 5th dan test equivalent to <insert name koryu technique here>?")!

Now... Stefan and myself have tried to elaborate on the question... sooooo... does anyones specific sword style have anything similar? :)

To Jeff: I'm a bit bemused as to how one can possible feel the "killing intention" when you know that it is "merely" a shinai blow that will be received... I guess that is why you said it is harder than if it had been a bokken/shinken... or is it perhaps the case that the intention is the same regardless of what weapon is wielded? As someone who has never experienced such a feeling, I am merely interested, even though I know it is very probable that I can never hope to understand until/unless I feel it myself...

Regards,

Chris.

[Edited by Chi on 01-09-2001 at 04:02 AM]

Chi
9th January 2001, 16:10
Thanks for the enlightenment Jeff! (and I'll refrain from asking more questions with regard to that aspect ;), as I totally agree that it isn't something to be discussed over an open forum, especially since I am _currently_ a non-boojer! (heretic! infidel!))

Regards,

Chris.

poryu
20th January 2001, 15:13
Hi all

Hatsumi has stated that many Koryu in the past and individuals used a test similar to what we in the Bujinkan refer to as the 5th Dan testor the Sakki test.

e stated that it was a test to evealuate people reflexs. each time being for a different purpose or reason. He did not say if thhis was a set test in any Ryuha.

I think tha the Bujinkan use of the test has become more common place that it was in the past in our schools.

After all so many have now passed the test internationaly

poryu
20th January 2001, 15:15
just had a memory flash

you will see a similar version of the test inSeven Samurai, and also is nt there a famour story of a father testing his sons

one steps throught he door and gets hit, no2 steps through the door and evades the strike, no3 refuses to setp through the door.

I suppose this is related to the same test

Tony Peters
23rd January 2001, 23:22
Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
That's understandable Tony, but sheesh cut the guy some slack. Maybe he worded it wrong, or maybe he doesn't speak english too well, replying with "who the hell..", or "how the hell.." seems rather cold, I thought Budo (Japanese martial arts) were partly about humility;)

Humility aside I am a US Navy Sailor. As such the term "How the Hell" doesn't even register in the yellow light area of possiblly unacceptable verbage. I spend my days dealing with and teaching people (for the most part submariners) who know little if anything about what I do so they either a) don't care or b) want me to finish asap so that they can get on with their life. My tollerance for questions which can't be answered in the manner they are asked is very small. Yes I was abrupt...likely I had had too much coffee (or not enough) but I still beleive if you are going to ask a question of people who by design know little about what you are asking you had best explain it properly. Boy I'm getting grumpy as I get older.

[Edited by Tony Peters on 01-23-2001 at 05:39 PM]