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Geoff
27th December 2007, 13:37
In my experience the more senior a practitioner becomes the more s/he advocates a soft approach to their art. Even in Shotokan for example, seniors seem to round or often their techniques as they age. Some of this may be due to decreasing capabilities of the masters as they enter their elder years (I say this without any disrespect), but it seems that the hard to soft progression is also touted as an ideal, i.e. we should become softer in our practice as we become more proficient in the application of our waza.

My questions, posed really as a thinking exercise to help me clarify some of my thoughts, is: Is it possible to effectively teach a martial art from the perspective of the soft without having individuals practice a hard form for many years? Can softness be taught or must it be "grown into"?

My feeling is that only exceptional teachers can teach effective soft style martial arts and only exceptional students can learn them. I point to three examples from the spectrum of East Asian MA. In Japanese karate the Shotokai sub-style seems "soft". However, the seniors of this method, e.g. Egami and Harada, were practitioners of hard style Shotokan for many years. While their soft karate seems to work for them I'm not sure that Shotokai is a method that is as effective as the original Shotokan root system for most practioners. In Chinese MA Yang tai chi chuan is the epitome of a soft style and while it seems to have been effective for certain masters such as Yang Lu Chan and Yang Cheng Fu (who had first trained in hard Chen Tai Chi or external CMA), the old saw "Chen for fighting, Yang for health" seems to hold true for most tai chi practitioners I've met. Finally, the new Korean-American style of Choi Kwang Do is a soft form derived from ITF TKD. While Grandmaster Choi (a former ITF champion) is astounding his method - a soft form of TKD - is too new to be proven.

So, is it possible to teach and learn the soft? Or, must we mere mortals suffer through the forge of the hard to achieve proficiency?

Woody
27th December 2007, 13:52
I think necessity is the mother of invention.;)

Geoff
27th December 2007, 19:29
While it might be necessary to grow into the soft as we age my question really centers on the idea of teaching and learning soft-styles from the start. In short, is it worthwhile to study a soft style if you want to be a decent martial artist in a scrap? My very biased impression of martial artists who have not experienced rigorous, hard-style training is that their practical abilities are sometimes lacking (Cheng Man-Ching and other notables excepted).

ZachZinn
27th December 2007, 21:09
While it might be necessary to grow into the soft as we age my question really centers on the idea of teaching and learning soft-styles from the start. In short, is it worthwhile to study a soft style if you want to be a decent martial artist in a scrap? My very biased impression of martial artists who have not experienced rigorous, hard-style training is that their practical abilities are sometimes lacking (Cheng Man-Ching and other notables excepted).

I think that is probably more to do with the way soft styles are marketed and taught today, especially in the US (and I assume other 'modern' countries)...there are plenty of soft style practitioners that can fight, they just probably aren't the people teaching a Taiji as relaxation class at the rec center, though who knows.

If you've ever had the opportunity to fool around a little with someone who has learned Taiji etc. as a martial art you will see some of them defnitely know what they are doing.

TPFox
8th April 2009, 15:41
Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi, not short form and not competition form, is soft with martial arts applications that prove quite effective in self-defense if it is taught properly.

In push hands, chi power is cultivated to propel a force beyond a person's physical power. You would have to see this in person to understand what I am talking about. The slow solo form of Tai Chi is later also practiced as a fast form, and then there is a two man set. There are various sword solo forms, and a pole form. At the school I study at, the curriculum is vast and does not erroneously include boxing that some tai chi schools have introduced - which is really a hard form. But, if I "took" on any of the more senior students at my schools, they could slam me into the wall with what would look like an easy soft push.

This video shows my teachers' teacher pushing hands. You'll see what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc

Todd Lambert
8th April 2009, 17:39
T
This video shows my teachers' teacher pushing hands. You'll see what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc
I confess to not understanding.

Cufaol
9th April 2009, 08:38
Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi, not short form and not competition form, is soft with martial arts applications that prove quite effective in self-defense if it is taught properly.

In push hands, chi power is cultivated to propel a force beyond a person's physical power. You would have to see this in person to understand what I am talking about. The slow solo form of Tai Chi is later also practiced as a fast form, and then there is a two man set. There are various sword solo forms, and a pole form. At the school I study at, the curriculum is vast and does not erroneously include boxing that some tai chi schools have introduced - which is really a hard form. But, if I "took" on any of the more senior students at my schools, they could slam me into the wall with what would look like an easy soft push.

This video shows my teachers' teacher pushing hands. You'll see what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc

I can only reply to this vid by posting another vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=PlayList&p=B23C7AE99E25BFA2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=137 ("http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=PlayList&p=B23C7AE99E25BFA2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=137)

'nuff said.

TPFox
12th April 2009, 05:19
Ha ha ha!

I'm afraid you're comparing apples to oranges here. The "master" in the clip you showed has no idea how to make physical contact with his enemy or defend against his enemy other than with chi. I suggest he either has great knowledge of chi and limited training in actual physical contact, or it is a scam.

In the clip I showed you, the teacher has tremendous experience with physical contact with students - and chi is released only through physical contact. As you'll see in the next clip - this "soft" training involves a lot of physical contact.

http://www.gstaichi.org/images/videoClips/FongPeter2.mpg

If nothing else, tai chi practitioners (classical yang style) develop great skill at pushing an adversary away and holding their ground and blocking someones attacks. Would they stand up to an MMA fighter? Who knows and probably who cares - the slow form (and there is a fast form too and weapons movement forms slow and fast) cover a syllabus of blocks, kicks, and punches - (and there is also a two man set) - that would set you up much better for a self-defense situation than the joker in the clip you posted.

e-budoka
27th May 2009, 09:09
I confess to not understanding.

OH I think I understand alright.
Todd, I am sure you are being polite!:D

Josh Young
15th July 2009, 17:14
Is it possible to effectively teach a martial art from the perspective of the soft without having individuals practice a hard form for many years?
Yes, but it takes a type of dedication that few have and so few reach. Also taiji training has changed over the years and not for the better.


If nothing else, tai chi practitioners (classical yang style) develop great skill at pushing an adversary away and holding their ground and blocking someones attacks.
Taiji was well proven in open fighting tournaments in China where people died in combat. Much harsher than MMA, but this is taiji of generations past. It has hard and soft, this is why skilled men were praised as being like steel wrapped in cotton. The truth is that taiji says do not use force against force, it is not as soft as many people want to pretend it is, most of them being taiji practitioners, however it is internal which is often confused with soft.

A rope can have energy put through it in a way that a rod cannot, this is because the rope is soft. This relates to taiji energy, the softness allows the hard to be expressed and allows hard attacks to be met with nothing to hit/hurt. Trying to hit a good taiji player is like trying to beat up a cloud, being hit by a good taiji player is like being hit by a truck.

Moenstah
30th September 2009, 11:08
This video shows my teachers' teacher pushing hands. You'll see what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc

What a load of stupid [censored]. That's just acting nonsense. I've met some tai chi practitioner who knew his stuff, and which was true: trying to hit a cloud, getting hit is like being hit by a truck, but that video...