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yamatodamashii
9th January 2001, 05:15
What's the name of the Japanese organization which determines who is practicing legitimate koryu?

hyaku
9th January 2001, 07:32
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yamatodamashii
[B]What's the name of the Japanese organization which determines who is practicing legitimate koryu?
.............................
To put it simply, there is no such organization. A ryu is promulgated by succeeding family or senior practitioner. Different ryu can be affiliated to an association/organization. This a mainly aimed at organizing events and getting people together.

As each ryu is self governing, many see no need to be a member of a group as their history and practice speaks for itself. On the other hand some ryu/styles have chose to make themselves into an organization. This is usually where we find the rank systems somewhat mixed and confusing

One can put all the Japanese Budo Associations/Organizations into some sort of respectable order although individually most of them claim to be the “be and end all.”

A few trees with strong roots and a trunk, lots of branches and a lot of falling leaves over the years. In Kobudo the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai could be considered selective as to who they allow in. But there are other respectable groups that are more localized and encompass the traditions of that particular area. Enough Kobudo down in Kagoshima to fill a small book.

As everyone knows there is the Dan-I style which includes Kyoshi, hanshi etc as extra promotion. Then there are Shogo awards in Kobudo, perhaps one or two awards within one's lifetime.

However one more promotional system that exists but is rarely mentioned and has to be taken into account. When one mentions organizations it's Kaicho, Riji-cho, Riji, (President, Chief Director, Director) With this the head of an association will be the head of a particular style or styles of Budo. This is a legitimate course familiar with Asian and Western business and Budo. However I have seen one man bands or groups of three proclaim these posts and others in the Japanese Budo World.


Hope this helps

Hyakutake Colin

MarkF
10th January 2001, 10:40
Hi, Colin, Jason,
Isn't there a body of persons who study the history of koryu, and who will state so if there is historic and ongoing proof of its existence. I'm not sure if I was reading Jason:o correctly, but that is what I thought he was asking.

No organization on budo, no associations, simply an accepted way of verifying the which are true koryu, those with a provable lineage, etc.?

I think it is Katori Shinto which has been established as the oldest provable koryu still extant.

At least, that was the impression I got from Jason's question.

Sorry if I shot your meaning all to, well shoot.:)

Mark



[Edited by MarkF on 01-11-2001 at 05:07 AM]

yamatodamashii
10th January 2001, 16:27
But it makes more sense, actually, if the organizations which I thought determined this (I think 'Nihon Kobudo' something?) are actually just clubs.
It explains some other things that I have read on various threads, and it seems VERY Japanese.

While I've got you here, Mark, let me drift my own thread for a minute... I seem to remember reading somewhere that Kano sensei was an expert in kusarigama, but now I can't find it anywhere. Have you ever heard of this?

MarkF
11th January 2001, 11:05
Hi, Jason,
I think I called you "Bruce" in my first post, so apologies from me. If I cannot get a fairly simple name such as "Jason" correctly, I shouldn't be too concerned with those who have trouble with my surname.

To your question. Actually, it was performed at the Butokukai, in Kyoto. Judo, also, was taught there, and politics being what they are, Kano was resented by some as being "too international." That is the nice way of saying it. But they invited teachers of all sorts of arts and techniques, as well, including these types of weapons. For an article on the Butokukai see http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_abe_0600.htm .

While Kano did witness the demonstration, what got his attention, was the jojutsu exhibition, and asked if someone could come to Tokyo to demonstrate techniques of the Jo.

But as far as I know (and I'm not, certainly, the last source on this), the only weapons I know he taught were the sword (for defensive purposes, but I'm sure it was taught correctly to those who were uke), and the jo. I haven't read everything on Kano, but what I have read, the only link may have been with the Butokukai, a judo and kendo school. Jigoro Kano was not connected to this school although the Kodokan absorbed the Butokukai, then dissolved it, after WWII.

Hope this helps.

Mark

BTW: I'll edit out my error in my first post.:)

hyaku
11th January 2001, 13:45
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]Hi, Colin, Jason,
Isn't there a body of persons who study the history of koryu, and who will state so if there is historic and ongoing proof of its existence.
................

Hello Mark.

I thing reserching the actual documentation and looking at the practical aspects are sadly seperated.

We have considered Juyo Mukei Bunkazai. The professor responsible for this examination in my area at Kyushu University takes a number of years to investigate the history and documentation related to a ryu. I did not mention this because most of these experts are not actual practitioners. I don't want to question their expertise. But their findings seem to be based on historical links rather than the actual practice. Their findings on the practical aspects would still have to come from someone such as the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai.

I have brought up this subject many times now with some leading heads of well known ryu. The answer is almost always the fact that old way was to hand on the things by word of mouth and practice. And that many people were reluctant to write anything down for fear of it getting in the wrong hands. Even if they did record things it was written in such a way that only certain people would be able to cipher it.

There is definate change in the Kageryu documents written by Yamazaki Buzen Sensei who was teaching the Kageryu at the beginning of the Tokugawa Shogunate. The present 17th generation descendant of the lord of the area also has papers handed down from his ancestors telling of the neighbouring fief paying visits and policing the area for Tokugawa in relation to the use of swords and enforcing the new size limitations.

I think another problem lies in the fact that people did make a living from teaching the sword in different ways. Tohgo Sensei, headmaster of the Jigen ryu was telling me that what they taught to a swordsman was somewhat different to giving a lesson to the Lord Shimazu. And in some cases it is the latter that has survived.

Hyakutake Colin

MarkF
12th January 2001, 10:52
Hi, Colin,
I, uhh, just thought a question was misunderstood, and tried to correct it, but as usual, I'm not nearly as eloquent in doing so. The Nihon Kobudo Kyokai was what I thought was being asked, and if I had just thought about it with the little Japanese (very, very little) I know, I probably didn't need to say anything.

Interesting, too, was your last comment concerning teaching and how it was doled out, and the manner in which this proved to be what it was. I had thought, too, that some were semi-illiterate, and was one of the reasons for which little record exists. That is just me wondering, but it makes perfect sense, that the last to do battle, would be the retainer, and that he survived, even when he was the truly the last man. It does make one ask the reason for this, as well. My own answer would be that who better to cover one's a$$ than he who holds the key to his fate.

I never considered that, so thanks for the information, something I don't think I will forget.

Mark

Meik Skoss
18th January 2001, 01:16
I pretty much agree with what Colin Hyakutake says about the various Japanese kobudo organizations, but would like to add a bit more.

Both the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and Nihon Kobudo Kyokai are comprised of people recognized as legitimate exponents of legitimate ryu. To become a member, either as a ryu or as an individual, it is necessary to provide documentation of the individual's lineage, the ryu and, sometimes, a number of other matters. Both groups are governed by a board of directors, comprised of people generally recognized to be "senior" exponents and the membership committee (or it may be a committee of the whole -- I'm not sure about that) is what votes to accept or reject an application to join these groups.

I have to add that not all "legitimate" ryu have joined one of these organizations, nor do all "legitimate" members of a constituent ryu belong to them. In some cases, it's been a matter of not wanting to go through all the paperwork. In others, it's due to an individual not being the "right sort" of person, although their lineages are recognized. You know how it is with any group of people who band together for a common purpose: at some point in time, personal agendas and likes/dislikes are a factor. People: gotta love 'em... (sigh...)

With regard to the Kodokan and its relationship to weapons training and the Dai Nippon Butokukai, Mr. Feigenbaum did not get it quite right in his explanation. Kano Jigoro did, as a matter of fact, study bojutsu (Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu) and introduced several koryu weapons schools (notably the Shinto Muso-ryu and Katori Shinto-ryu) to senior people in the Kodokan. It was an attempt to round out the training there, to provide for a more complete education of students there, by giving Kodokan judoka a better understanding of a lot of things that purely unarmed training cannot provide.

I believe all of this got lost with the re-organization of judo and kendo in the post-WWII period under SCAP policies of "disarmament and de-militarization" and the push to have the major arts (judo and kendo) become "sports" so they'd be more palatable to Occupation authorities. That turns out to have been a big mistake, in my opinion, really vitiating the martial qualities of both arts (compared to what they were before the war).

A further point regarding koryu: all of 'em are completely independent. Nobody in the Shinkokai or Kyokai has any sort of authority over them except in matters relating to either of the larger organizations, and usually not even at that time. (Board meetings of these groups can sometimes become rather heated on this point, believe me! I recall hearing about one session from one of my teachers over who would or would not be allowed to participate in a big demonstration at Ise Jingu that caused considerable, and *very* heated, discussion. Given that consensus is such a major issue for Japanese, for an something like that to happen was pretty unusual.)

Lastly, what Colin says about teaching at different levels, depending upon the student, is quite correct. One did *not* teach the Shogun or the daimyo of Owari, for instance, the same way one would one of their personal guards. There's an awful lot of whack 'n thwack involved in kenjutsu when one uses fukurojinai (I'm assuming Shinkage-ryu here) and for a kendo shinan to bark the knuckles of such VIPs just wasn't a very good idea. Now, people in positions where they might be called upon to actually *use* these skills, would be/are put through the wringer. There's no other way to train such people; that's why police judo and kendo practice is a lot stronger than everybody else's. They've gotta put it on the line (maybe, it's not like Japan is Dodge City -- yet).

I hope this helps.

FastEd
18th January 2001, 05:53
Originally posted by Meik Skoss

I believe all of this got lost with the re-organization of judo and kendo in the post-WWII period under SCAP policies of "disarmament and de-militarization" and the push to have the major arts (judo and kendo) become "sports" so they'd be more palatable to Occupation authorities. That turns out to have been a big mistake, in my opinion, really vitiating the martial qualities of both arts (compared to what they were before the war).


I realize this is off topic, and I apologize, but with regards to pre-war kendo, are there any media resources available to compare how things were done before the war. (books, video etc...?)

Joseph Svinth
18th January 2001, 08:50
If your Japanese is good, then Professor Bodiford can probably fix you up with enough citations to keep you busy for several days.

In the US, judging by the online inventory lists, the National Archives and Records Administration in College Park, Maryland, has an absolutely staggering amount of material relating to kendo that was collected during 1945-1948. I would guess that much of this is translated. Post-WWII translations were generally done by Nisei, so are probably not bad.

In Canada, FOIA requests to RCMP for material relating to kendo clubs and practitioners, to include the ones at Angler POW Camp 101, could probably turn up some interesting English-language stuff, too. You'd have to make your request and then wait a couple years, but what the heck, if you had it you'd only have to read it.

FastEd
18th January 2001, 21:17
Thanks for the info Joe. I had a look at the camp 101 article at EJMAS, I did not realize that Nissei were placed there during the war. I have actually been to the old camp location. It is located with the boundaries of Neys Provincial Park.

Joseph Svinth
19th January 2001, 07:46
Ed --

Try Robert K. Okazaki, "The Nisei Mass Evacuation Group and P.O.W. Camp ‘101’Angler, Ontario" (Scarsborough, Ontario: Markaham Litho, Ltd., 1996).

There was also a kendo club at Kaslo in 1944; JC National Museum and Archives Society in Vancouver has a photo.

If you can't find a copy of Okazaki's book at the library but want one, drop me a line and I'll send you his widow's address. As I recall, cost is about $20-25 CDN.

MarkF
19th January 2001, 13:34
Meik,
I think you mis represented my post. I was asked, spefically, if Kano had expertise in a single weapons art, and I only said, that while Kano Jigoro did invite someone to demonstrate the one weapon from the particular Butokukai demonstration, was the jo.

It makes sense he would invite anyone, everyone to teach one's particular knowledge of weapons, tai-jutsu, etc., but I think you read too much into what I said, and to what question to which I replied.

Indeed Kano Jigoro opened the Kodokan to anyone who could teach, at the same time, he quickly lost control of his school much earlier than the war.

Reasons change with the seasons, but the fact that judo WAS a school for all, it became very easy to to the politically correct thing at the time.

So please underand I was answering a person who had a question of Kano's expertise with the sicle, but it is rather common knowledge that more than a few were taught there. The most common judo refences bare this out eve today, as many arts are taught there. While the Kodokan may have appeared to be "just a sport," the Kodokan even today is still revising the syllabus and contains many of the weapons, but certainly not only judo, or judo as a sport. In fact, the Kodokan was the allies H2H school until fairly recently (the fifties), so it certainly does not represent only the IJF/IOCs version of a sport.

Mark
BTW: Please call me Mark. There are still many people trained in all Kodokan kata, and in a short time, there will be rather large expostion of all Kodokan kata, done with weapons and with out, in La. I'k love to go this year, but personal matters keep me from doing so (in La, I believe at the ULL, but the information to such is in the seminar section.

BTW #2: You look rather dashing as a samurai these days, at least on TV.:D


[Edited by MarkF on 01-19-2001 at 07:37 AM]

Adam Young
19th January 2001, 22:01
Originally posted by FastEd
Thanks for the info Joe. I had a look at the camp 101 article at EJMAS, I did not realize that Nissei were placed there during the war. I have actually been to the old camp location. It is located with the boundaries of Neys Provincial Park.

Wow, that name brings back memories. Back in 1989, I was a naturalist (or "visitor services rep" as they made us call ourselves) at Neys and was responsible for, among other things, leading tours through the old POW camp. However, my recollection is that it was Germans who were in the camp. It could just be my memory getting patchy (the 30s are rough on a man's mind ;) ). Possibly the camp was home to both (not at the same time, though).

FastEd
20th January 2001, 06:13
Originally posted by Adam Young


Wow, that name brings back memories. Back in 1989, I was a naturalist (or "visitor services rep" as they made us call ourselves) at Neys and was responsible for, among other things, leading tours through the old POW camp. However, my recollection is that it was Germans who were in the camp. It could just be my memory getting patchy (the 30s are rough on a man's mind ;) ). Possibly the camp was home to both (not at the same time, though).



I missed seeing you by a year!..I was a Junior Ranger for the Province of Ontario during the summer of 1988 based near by the park. (We worked out of Rainbow Falls..remember that one?)

Joseph Svinth
21st January 2001, 10:20
After some Germans escaped from Angler to celebrate Hitler's birthday in April 1942, they were replaced with about 760 Japanese Canadian men, most of whom had been arrested for publicly protesting family separations. The camp continued to house Nikkei until April 1946. (1946 is not a misprint.) For a description of the Great Escape, see http://www.lynximages.com/POW.htm . For some descriptions of kendo at Camp 101, see http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_svinth1_0200.htm . For German images of Ontario POW camps, see the Thunder Bay Historical Museum URL http://www.tbaytel.net/tbhms/krak.htm ; see also http://www.uk-muenchen.de/english/eng_hoegel_thun2.html . Finally, for a Nikkei bibliography relating to Canada, see http://www.crr.ca/EN/Publications/Bibliography/ePub_BiblioJCCH.htm

The Canadian internment of Ukrainians during 1914-1920 is also interesting. See, for example, http://209.82.14.226/history/internment

Things they breeze past in school...



[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 01-21-2001 at 04:26 AM]