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Howard Popkin
12th January 2008, 02:48
Mr. Deluna,

I noticed on your website that you were wearing a black belt during a trip to the Roppokai while visiting Okamoto Sensei and Asahara Sensei. I also noticed that in your picture with Roy Goldberg Sensei of the Kodokai you were wearing a black belt also.

http://texasaikijujutsu.com/misc.aspx

I can only surmise that you received your black belt in both systems this year.

Congratulations surely are in order.

How long have you been studying with the Texas group ??? Just curious, because Jose Lopez Sensei has never spoken about you and I didn't meet you when I was in Texas.

Oh well, maybe we can get to train together soon. I look forward to that !!

Congratulations again !

Howard Popkin
Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
New York

Jitsumania
13th January 2008, 00:37
Mr. Deluna, I was reading the above post and found it quite interesting. I am a card carrying member of the Texas Roppokai and study directly under Jose Lopez in the Houston Study Group and have not had the opportunity to meet you to date. I dont believe I have seen you in attendance at the last 3-4 Trainings hosted by Nishida Sensei in Fort worth during Okamoto Senseis training visits to Texas. I am always honored to meet upper rank in the Daito Ryu system. Hope to see you at the next Roppokai gathering where Okamoto Sensei will be present, as the assistance of Shodan and above are always welcome by the Mudansha of the Ryu. ;)

lucky1899
13th January 2008, 03:29
Howy,

I am neither a blackbelt in Roppokai or Kodokai. As is stated in my website: http://texasaikijujutsu.com/Instructors.aspx, I am a blackbelt under the Renshinkan dojo under the Toshimi Matsuda lineage. My visits with Okamoto and Goldberg Sensei are a sign of me experiencing other lines of Daito Ryu. If you remember, I have the "PM" to show if you've forgotten, I asked you if I could attend your Okamoto seminar in NY and you directed me to Jose Lopez. Jose Lopez (and I have the e-mails and witnesses to prove this as well) wrote that [paraphrasing], I needed to provide him a letter from my instructor in Japan in order to join his study group and/or attend the Okamoto seminar. I was not going to go through the trouble to obtain a letter when I already had planned to visit the Roppokai Tokyo dojo. I wonder if Okamoto would appreciate these huge obstacles placed in front of person trying to learn and experience Roppokai.

As far as wearing my blackbelt at seminars or dojos I visit, that's what I do. I would never ask a visiting martial artist to remove his belt and if I were asked to do so, then I wouldn't train. Currently, I am a student of Ota Ikuo Sensei of the Daito Ryu Renshinkan dojo (recently renamed Shofuku) and as far as I'm concerned only he can take away my belt.

Rick Torres,

As stated above, I'm not a member of the Roppokai nor is it my desire to be a member. I know your study group leader, Jaideep (we study MSR together), very well and you are more than welcome to drop by my dojo anytime (wearing any color belt or carrying any card you wish).:)

Regards,
A. De Luna

Howard Popkin
13th January 2008, 11:57
Mr. Deluna,

Thanks for responding. Actually, you don't have to wonder. Those are Okamoto's rules, not mine or Mr. Lopez's.

We follow the rules and regulations set forth by the Roppokai.

All students who practice Roppokai begin as a white belt.

Frankly, I'm shocked that Okamoto Sensei allowed you to practice wearing that, unless it was under some false pre-tenses.

You claim to be a study group of the Kodokai. Ask Sensei Goldberg if he likes you wearing your black belt next time you work out with him. I'd love to hear his response. Actually, I might just give him a call and ask him myself. We go back a VERY long way and talk from time to time.

All Japanese Budo involves trying to remove the ego to better oneself and the system they represent. Whether or not you are a good martial artist is irrelevant and it has nothing to do with "taking away your black belt", it has to do with trying to show that you have an empty cup for the instructor to fill.

I wish you the best in your search for knowledge, but it seems unnecessary as you already have your "black belt".

Best of luck,

Howard Popkin
Jun Dairi Kyoju
Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai

Howard Popkin
13th January 2008, 12:06
Mr. Deluna,

Did you ask Okamoto Sensei and Asahara Sensei for permission to post their likeness on the internet ????

Common (or maybe uncommon) courtesy suggests that you ask for permission to post a picture of someone.

It is possible that Okamoto didn't want those pictures up on the internet ?

Looks to me like a few fine examples of you attemping to say "Look at me, I trained with Okamoto, Goldberg, Asahara, I must be good :)".

If you don't mind, since you are so comfortable just showing up at the Roppokai without getting permission first, please get a letter from Okamoto clearly stating that it is ok for you to post his picture on his website. If you can't, I would ask you politely to remove it, along with the picture of Asahara.

Please make no mistake, You are still more then welcome to practice at my dojo anytime, ESPECIALLY wearing your Renshinkan or any other black belt you choose.

Once again, Best of luck. You're obviously gonna need it !!!!

Howard Popkin
Jun Dairi Kyoju
Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai

skylinerR32
13th January 2008, 15:42
To clarify slightly on what Mr. Popkin stated earlier:

Okamoto Sensei has a standing rule that anyone from any martial art is welcome to join the Roppokai, but out of respect for the other legitimate Daito-Ryu lineages, permission for attendance and proof of rank for an active member within another aiki-jujutsu organization is requested from that hombu dojo to avoid any possible misunderstandings or misrepresentations.

If a person has the policy to allow students to wear whatever rank he/she attained in another martial art - great - however, imo, when visiting another man's house seeking knowledge, one should respect his rules and the individuals studying under that roof.

From The Karate Kid:
Daniel: "Hey, what kind of belt you got?"
Mr. Miyagi: "Brown leather - JCPenny $4.99, you like? Hahahahah!!"
Daniel: "No, I mean..."
Mr. Miyagi: "In Okinawa belt means you no have to tie up pants with rope! Hahahahaha!
Daniel-san, Karate here [points to head], Karate here [points to heart], Karate never here [points to belt], you understand?"

Replace the word Karate with ANY other martial art and it still works :)

Thank you,
Jim Yang

Jitsumania
13th January 2008, 16:06
Mr. Deluna I would like to thank you for your invitation to visit your Dojo and allowing me permission to wear whatever color belt or carry whatever card on your premises. I extend you the same courtesy when you are in the Victoria area (American Karate Institute). Quite frankly, my 40 years of training in the arts has shown me quite a different etiquette about how and where I display my Yudansha rankings. Whenever I travel to another persons Dojo there is always a White belt in the carry bag and this is never an option. BTW I wore that white belt all the way through my training in Aikido under Jorge Garcia Sensei, Jaideep, and other Aikido Yudansha you know. (even in my own Dojo) till I recieved my Shodan. I am extremely proud of my white belt in Roppokai and see it as a symbol of the metaphorical empty cup as Mr. Popkin stated. My God bless you in your endeavours Mr. Deluna.

lucky1899
13th January 2008, 16:35
Howard,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I will not remove the photos. I don't state anywhere on my website that I train with Roppokai, in fact the header of the photo reads "my visit to Tokyo shibu...". I don't have a study group with the Kodokai and if you read through my website, you would've known that. I talk with Goldberg Sensei almost weekly and he asked me to remove the photos of him, which I did, as I consider him a mentor.

Let me tell you about my visit to Japan. I went to Okamoto's house instead of his dojo and introduced myself. He invited me into his home where he hosted me to sushi and Japanese wine. He was a very, very kind host. After talking with me for about five hours, he called one of his students and told them that I would be joining them for practice as he was going to Osaka the following day. His kindness is beyond words. I don't know about his organizational rules since I'm not in the organization; it just seems that his actions on that day went against the grain of those rules. Again, my appreciation is without words. You should try emulating your mentor sometime.

As you are not part of the Kodokai, I'm not sure what your issues with Goldberg sensei and my relationship are; my understanding is that you were once a student of the Kodokai. I will kindly ask you to empty your cup when it comes to others' relationships.

With regards to which belt I wear, I trained in Jorge Garcia's dojo for six months wearing my blackbelt. I also trained at Hiroshi Kato's seminars wearing my blackbelt. If my cup were full, I would've never attended these trainings. In fact the whole premise falls on itself. Empty your cup when you visit others to train??? Why would I go train if I wasn't searching for knowledge. Surely, I'm not spending my money to travel around the world to show people I'm good. In fact, I think my Daito Ryu technique sticks. That's WHY I train...so that it gets better.

Again if an instructor asks me to remove my belt, then I just won't train. I believe that is being courteous. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree.

I have an ego and I'm trying to let go of it through my Buddhist studies and my training. I don't think my belt has anything to do with my ego; I don't wear it out of respect for my skills, I wear it out of respect for my teacher who believes I have the skills.

Good luck to you.

Regards,

A. De Luna

Howard Popkin
13th January 2008, 17:46
Mr. Deluna,

Thank your for explaining how the situation went.

Your explaination of your meeting with Okamoto Sensei tells the story beautifully.

Please, and I mean no disprespect whatsoever, study a bit of Japanese protocal.

It will truly help you in the long run.

I wish you best of luck in your Shugyo, what ever path you choose to take.

Howard

Dan Harden
13th January 2008, 21:53
I don't know this Andrew fellow, so I am not talking to him or about him. This thread just touched on a conversation I am currently having- both in person and on the net with some long time DR practitioners, who are concerned about some choices being currently made. But it speaks to those n Budo across the board

To the larger crowd, I would be -very- careful to avoid doing this. If you are going to assume-then don't make the embarassing choice. This attitude about wearing a symbol of rank in a room with students of a style you do not know would be considered by every teacher I know to be confusing, misleading or even outright fraud to those in attendance. You would have no business confusing others who may perhaps be looking for guidance or help and watching your movements as "a model" unbeknownst to you. And futher you would be offering yourself as an embarrassing representative for the teacher present- requiring and burdening him or his students with an explanation for this odd behavior- either openly or behind your back. Most would consider you either a damn fool or a fraud. I think the majority would favor the later assessment. In either case don't opt to be "that guy" and create a disturbance-it isn't about you.

Cultural gaps
Do not misunderstand the indulgences or tolerance of Japanese teachers as any sort of approval either. Some would be laughing their asses off at you-in private-and would readily expect their students to straighten you out. If you were so stupid as to not even get the advice of the teachers head guys? Well, that pretty much speaks for itself as well. As for the students? I can't help but think some guys would either have a field day with someone with that much presumption or pity them for such overt ignorance. Ignorance isn't a pass. It just validates your own stupidity. It's why you still get arrested and convicted as guilty as charged -in spite of your ignorance. There is a lovely expression in budo about being so ignorant in public that you do something dumb while not getting just how stupid you look. It's called "stepping on your dick." This idea speaks to the lowest understanding. More usually expressed in the fast-food dojo types that seem to be ever increasingly embraced by -some- American teachers of these Japanese arts.

Japanese tradition and American schools.
Many Koryu got smart about what schools and people THIER arts are taught or shown in. Many, if not most are doing so by a method wherein the school has to be vetted and the parent organization looks at the overall tenor of the place and the people in question. It should not go unnoticed that –some- American teachers of these Japanese arts are trying to "create" this weird, (clearly artificial) serious type of atmosphere, and while it is their choice, in the opinion of their own people they are clearly not up to the task and doing so...in the worst of all possible places.


Again do not misconstrue. I don't know this guy. He could be a fine fellow. It is the "idea" it puts forth and how it may play out for most other guys in Budo that I am addressing.
Cheers
Dan

Howard Popkin
14th January 2008, 02:27
Mr Deluna called me on the phone and emphatically stated that he speaks Japanese fluently and that Okamoto Sensei understood his reason for being there

To his credit, he was very polite and respectful on the phone

Howard Popkin

Mark Murray
14th January 2008, 02:33
E-Budo has rules.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/announcement.php?f=13

Some have changed recently, so please reread them.

Thank you,
Mark

Howard Popkin
14th January 2008, 03:11
Did I break any ? If I did, I'm sorry. I consider this matter closed.

Howard

Woody
15th January 2008, 00:45
I find this interesting. Had A. De Luna followed the rules of a certain organization he is not a member of, he probably would not have had the opportunity to visit with Okamoto sensei nor train at his dojo. Some say he broke customary and obvious rules by his direct approach. Okamoto sensei apparently did not object too strenuously. He invited A. De Luna into his home and also invited him to train at his dojo. Shouldn't Okamoto sensei be able to "break" the rules of his own organization?
I think we Americans get more hung up on Japanese protocol than the Japanese do sometimes. Yes, I found the Japanese to be very tolerant/forgiving of ignorant gaijins. They also did not expect gaijins to understand the complexities of their culture in the same way as they do. I don't know how Okamoto sensei feels about A. De Luna's visit. Maybe it was presumptious or even rude. But he did get to meet with one of the greats and train at his dojo. Perhaps the direct approach isn't so bad afterall.:D

skylinerR32
15th January 2008, 01:44
I don't understand. How would following the rules have prohibited this gentleman from the opportunity to visit and train with Okamoto Sensei?

This was not a matter of Japanese cultural nuance or protocol, only common courtesy. I would love to visit and train with Kuroda Tetsuzan Sensei in Japan - however, I think he would find it very surprising and probably disrespectful if I showed up at the front door of his private residence as an unannounced total stranger without any type of introduction from a person known and trusted by him.

Showing up a sensei's public dojo and requesting permission to train is one thing, showing up at a person's home is quite another.

Jim Yang

lucky1899
15th January 2008, 03:20
Jim,

Let me clear something up that may ease the concern you've brought up. I went to Okamoto's house by mistake. The address on his business card and the address on the Japanese internet Roppokai website, give his home address as the dojo address. When I explained the mix up, he invited me as I had traveled across Tokyo to find him. Luckily his dojo was only a five minute walk from his home in Tokyo (he has several homes). What was really strange is that a huge building that looked very much like the Budokan in Gunma (where I train) is right next to his place, so the whole trip was very confusing.

Finding anything in Tokyo is VERY difficult and I find the fact that I was able to find him, almost a sign that I was MEANT to find him. Maybe I'm just being fatalistic, maybe not.

Believe me, I would NOT show up even to a friend's home unannounced and I give you my word that I honestly thought it was his dojo I was going to. Keep in mind, many dojos are connected to teacher's homes in Japan.

Okamoto could have easily told me; there is no training here, please stop by my dojo on Saturday or next Monday or whatever but he didn't. He was, in true Japanese style, a great host. I don't believe I took advantage of his hospitality in anyway. We sat, drank and laughed quite a bit.

Regards,

A. DeLuna

Jorge Garcia
15th January 2008, 16:53
With regards to which belt I wear, I trained in Jorge Garcia's dojo for six months wearing my blackbelt. I also trained at Hiroshi Kato's seminars wearing my blackbelt.

Since my name was brought up, I feel a need to clarify somewhat. I have been taught and I do teach that when visiting a dojo of another martial art, you should wear a white belt. When Andrew came to our dojo, he wore his black belt but it was during a seminar given by Hiroshi Kato Shihan. Since my shihan didn't ask him to remove the belt, I didn't think to ask Andrew to do that either. Andrew did join the dojo and trained with us for some time wearing the black belt. The issue of his wearing a black belt did come up though and I wrote to Japan asking Kato Shihan about that. He said that it was not good for our organization that a black belt holder from another martial art wear one while with us. I then told that to Andrew and just as he stated in this forum, he politely refused and did stop training with us. We talked like gentlemen and agreed to disagree and still be friends which we still are. I think what happened at the initial seminar is kind of what Dan said. Kato Shihan either chose to ignore it for the reasons Dan stated or he expected me to handle it since I was the host and it was my seminar. I am so used to being subservient to Kato Shihan, I just looked to him while he was expecting me to handle it. When I later wrote to him, he did tell me clearly his thoughts for our group.

Andrew is a nice fellow and I never had any trouble with him in our dojo. He does like to learn and is friendly and not a divisive person. It's just that Andrew has a few convictions that he doesn't compromise and in the regulated world of martial arts, things like this will happen with a person of opposing convictions.

I think though that a good point has been made and that it is confusing for the new students to know who to look to when seeking help and also, I can't help but feel that for some people (not Andrew) they just don't like the feeling of looking like newbies when they feel like they know so much (and maybe they do). In my dojo currently, I have three shodans in Karate and they all are wearing white belts. I have a sandan who is an instructor in karate who also wore a white belt but is now ranked with us so he has now has a belt color. I have had Judo people and many other arts like Rick Torres who holds degrees in multiple arts (and he is good at them) but they have always wore white belts when with us. I think Andrew's case is the first one like this I have run across.

At any rate, I'm out of here. I just dropped in because I was told my name came up and I wanted to clarify my beliefs and rule and that of our Aikido Association.

By the way, I was also a former member in good standing of the Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai and I do know them to very strict in these matters (at least in the level I was involved in).
best wishes to all,
Jorge Garcia
Houston, Texas

Kendoguy9
15th January 2008, 18:17
Hello all,

This really isn't related to the topic but I thought it was amusing enough to share.

The last seminar Kondo sensei held (in Richmond, VA) this past Fall was geared mostly to current students. However, one day we invited the hosting aikido dojo's students to train with us and to invite other non-students. The training was very intense the day before the open part of the seminar and my black belt was soaked from sweat. I left it on a lamp in the hotel to air out and that morning in my haste, to get to the dojo, I left it in the hotel. I wore a white belt for that day. Sensei made a few jokes first thing in the morning about me getting demoted. I think it confused some of our guests who didn't know me though. When I offered suggestions to improve their technique I got a lot of strange looks :look:

Lesson: bring the right belt with you! It isn't just for yourself, but for others around you.

Ron Tisdale
15th January 2008, 18:48
Chris, having trained with you, I can't see anyone giving you funny looks when you give them advice...not if they have any common sense anyways... :D

Best,
Ron

Neil Yamamoto
15th January 2008, 19:40
Ha, like Chris, I was wearing a white belt under my hakama at a seminar since I forgot my kaku obi.

I had a brown belt at the seminar graciously offer to help me with my ukemi prior to the seminar starting. I didn't ask, he just came over and started telling me I was rolling incorrectly and proceeded to tell me lots of things, most of which were strange and flat out wrong.

After the seminar started, the sensei pulled me up to take ukemi and told people I was a good friend and a senior student of his teacher, (Not really true but flattering) and people could ask me questions if he was across the mat and couldn't get to them. And I had over 10 years training with his teacher, so was experienced enough to be teaching. Suddenly, I've got said brown belt, who is a brown belt in karate, apologizing to me and asking me to show him things.

At another seminar I was teaching, I was wearing a white belt and people I didn't know were there as well, to "See how good this guy is". I talked to them for about 10 minutes and they didn't figure out I was the guy teaching until one of my guys came over and said, "Neil, should I lead the class in some warmups?" Funny how all of the sudden the "lets see how good this guy is attitude vanished" And I was even nice to them after that silliness.

I like wearing a white belt, it kind of sorts out who you want to avoid at seminars.

Jitsumania
16th January 2008, 00:07
I would like to thank Garcia Sensei for his above post. I have been privy to study under him for a few years and respect him immensly as a talented Aikidoka, Instructor and as a good friend. I too Mr. Deluna have been privy to touch the hands of many Masters also, (have broken bread and laughed with all of them multiple times at some point or another, including Okamoto Sensei) but it seems that most of the time I am wearing a white Belt unless they ask me to represent my Art(s). I am a strong believer in proper etiquette and find it difficult to believe that issues of ego or pride (sometimes a spade must be called a spade) would prevent someone from continuing to train with such a fine Instructor as Garcia Sensei . I myself find that incomprehensible. Please help me to understand your paradigm at a deeper level. I really am willing to listen and make attempt to understand this philosophy you hold, even though it goes against mainsteam etiquette. You speak of being able to empty your cup but it seems that words are seeping from two sides of the mouth when refusing to train when told of the breech of protocol by that particular school.
BTW-Kato Shihan allowed this writer permission to wear my Yudansha belt but I only chose to do this while my Demo team performed for him 2 years ago in Houston. After the demo the Black belt came off and the White Belt came on (my students did the same) as on the mat I am solely an Aikido STUDENT. Please understand I am not calling your skill level into play, just your philosophy. Best regards to you Mr. Deluna

mjchip
16th January 2008, 02:00
Maybe I'm ignorant but to me this whole topic seems to be a relatively straight forward and simple one.

I hold a sandan but wear a white belt under my hakama. My teacher is a rokudan and he does the same. His teacher is a hachidan and was a student of Ueshiba Sensei and he too wears a white belt.

I do get asked occassionally why I do this. My reply is typically something like: "I wear a white belt around my waist as a personal reminder of just how little I know". In all honesty, I find it very hard to even wear a black belt (although I do have one) when my teacher, who is so far ahead of me, doesn't wear one.

Regards,

Mark Chiappetta

lucky1899
16th January 2008, 03:10
Rick,

My philosophy is simply one of reciprocity and respect. Obviously we disagree. You may think I have an ego so large and strong that I don't have an open mind to learn. My idea is this; it doesn't matter if I wear a white belt, black belt or no belt, my mind being open to learning is independent of what holds my gi together. When I'm at a dojo, my own or someone else's I ask a lot of questions; while learning, I do the technique as I'm taught not as "I know" or some variation.

I could easily wear a white belt and be completely closed minded. My belt doesn't define me; in fact, I define my belt. My character, my practice intensity, dedication and perserverance give me my true "rank". So in somewhat of a paradoxical statement, my black belt means very little to me and it should mean very little to someone teaching me but my instructor and how much he shared with me means everything. You would have to meet me and talk with me to get a better picture of my feelings toward taking off a belt given to me by someone I respect beyond words.

I visited with my instructor last November and I spoke with him about my training with other Daito Ryu teachers. I received his blessing. In the event that my current instructor asked me to remove my black belt, I would because I am joining his RYU. Aikido doesn't have a RYU; it's a gendai art so asking me to behave in a traditional Japanese manner is actually out of place (my opinion). In addition, I never had any intention of receiving or earning rank in Aikido.

When I train in Brazilian Jiujitsu I go to "no gi" night because they require you wear a white belt. I have received private instruction from BJJ instructors with a gi and they had no problem with me wearing my black belt. Did the belt get in the way of my learning or their teaching? Absolutely not.

Nothing I write will convince you otherwise. You can think I have an ego or think I'm closed minded; it doesn't bother me; it won't stop me from learning and it won't stop me from training. Again, and I stress this; I NEVER ask anyone to take off their belt at my dojo. IT DOESN'T MATTER. That's where the reciprocity comes in. I would never ask you to take your blackbelt off at my dojo and neither would my instructor.

Just a note and Garcia Sensei can verify this, when we lined up in class at his dojo, I always sat with the white belts. I never assummed that I had rank in his class. I was always respectful of him and any other blackbelt that was teaching the class. I still am.

As I wrote before; nothing I write will probably change your mind and you won't change mine. That's okay. I don't mind.

Let me also address the ego issue. I DO HAVE an EGO; I AM A PROUD PERSON. I try my best not to be. Because I have to try some might say I have no grasp of humility. Maybe not. I'm not arrogant because I suck; I'm arrogant b/c I know a lot of people who do BUT, BUT, BUT I also know A LOT of people that are better than me and that's what keeps me training.

Regards,

A. De Luna

Josh Reyer
16th January 2008, 03:36
It's threads like this that make me glad I'm out of the belt/ranking game.

Cady Goldfield
16th January 2008, 04:20
Andrew, it's not about personal pride, but about having the sensitivity and sense of courtesy that respects other people's customs and traditions in their homes, whether that "home" be a dojo or an actual dwelling.

If it is customary to remove one's shoes in a Japanese home, would you insist on wearing yours when visiting a Japanese household, for whatever reasons you hold near and dear to yourself? What about the feelings of the people whose home you have entered as a visitor and guest? Don't they count? Just because, to your mind, wearing shoes in someone else's home "shouldn't matter," because it's okay with you if they wear shoes in your home, isn't how the world works. The person standing opposite you is a completely different human being with different feelings, and they deserve consideration -- especially when it's his home.

Refusing to abide by another school's protocols is thumbing your nose at them and saying that they are not worthy of your respect even though you have come and train and learn with them.

Good manners belong in all quarters of society and across cultures, and are not just about being pleasant and well-spoken.

Jitsumania
16th January 2008, 07:49
MY RESPONSES ARE IN BOLD ANDREW

Rick,

My philosophy is simply one of reciprocity and respect.

THERE IS NO RESPECT WHEN I GO TO SOMEONE ELSES HOME AND DO NOT ABIDE BY THE PROTOCOL SET FORTH IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

Obviously we disagree.

I WOULD DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO

You may think I have an ego so large and strong that I don't have an open mind to learn. My idea is this; it doesn't matter if I wear a white belt, black belt or no belt, my mind being open to learning is independent of what holds my gi together.

THEN WHY IS IT SO HARD TO WEAR A WHITE BELT. THE ABOVE STATEMENT APPEARS TO BE CONTRADICTORY IN NATURE.

When I'm at a dojo, my own or someone else's I ask a lot of questions; while learning, I do the technique as I'm taught not as "I know" or some variation.
I could easily wear a white belt and be completely closed minded. My belt doesn't define me; in fact, I define my belt.

I DO NOT DEFINE MY BELT NOR IT DEFINES ME. MY CHARACTER AND THE ABILITY TO DIE TO SELF IS WHAT DEFINES ME. THE ABILITY TO FOLLOW PROPER PROTOCAL THAT IS STEEPED IN TRADITION DEFINES ME, EVEN THOUGH AT TIMES I MAY NOT AGREE WITH IT, THERE ARE GREAT LESSONS TO BE LEARNED

My character, my practice intensity, dedication and perserverance give me my true "rank". So in somewhat of a paradoxical statement, my black belt means very little to me and it should mean very little to someone teaching me but my instructor and how much he shared with me means everything. You would have to meet me and talk with me to get a better picture of my feelings toward taking off a belt given to me by someone I respect beyond words.

I HAVE NOTHING BUT THE GREATEST RESPECT FOR THE 6 MEN (5 SEPARATE STYLES) THAT HAVE BESTOWED YUDANSHA DAN RANK ON ME, AND I BELIEVE I WOULD INSULT THEM IF I DID NOT REMOVE MY BELT AND FOLLOW ESTABLISHED PROTOCOL THAT THEY WOULD FOLLOW.

I visited with my instructor last November and I spoke with him about my training with other Daito Ryu teachers. I received his blessing. In the event that my current instructor asked me to remove my black belt, I would because I am joining his RYU.

IF YOU JOINED YOUR CURRENT INSTRUCTORS RYU? WOULD'NT YOU BE A PART OF THAT RYU IF YOU ARE ALREADY STUDYING UNDER HIM, THUS GRANTED THE PRIVILIDGE TO FLY YOUR COLORS ANYWAY?

Aikido doesn't have a RYU; it's a gendai art so asking me to behave in a traditional Japanese manner is actually out of place (my opinion). In addition, I never had any intention of receiving or earning rank in Aikido.

THE FOUNDER OF THIS ART, MASTER UESHIBA IS CONSIDERED ONE OF JAPAN'S NATIONAL TREASURES. THE ART IS STEEPED IN TRADITION AND PROTOCOL (TRADITIONAL JAPANESE BY THE WAY) IN ORDER TO PRESERVE WHAT THE FOUNDER ENVISIONED FOR AIKIDO. READ THE SPIRIT OF AIKIDO BY THE FOUNDERS SON TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE TRADITION AND PHILOSOPHY OD AN ART WHICH EXPOUSES THE DEATH OF SELF (FIGURATIVELY) AS A MEANS TO ENLIGHTENMENT.

When I train in Brazilian Jiujitsu I go to "no gi" night because they require you wear a white belt. I have received private instruction from BJJ instructors with a gi and they had no problem with me wearing my black belt. Did the belt get in the way of my learning or their teaching? Absolutely not.

THEY REQUIRE YOU TO WEAR A WHITE BELT. WHY DO YOU WEAR IT THERE AND NOT IN OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES THAT ARE DEFINATELY MORE FORMAL AND STEEPED IN JAPANESE TRADITION. BTW-LOVE TO DO BJJ AS WELL!

Nothing I write will convince you otherwise. You can think I have an ego or think I'm closed minded; it doesn't bother me; it won't stop me from learning and it won't stop me from training. Again, and I stress this; I NEVER ask anyone to take off their belt at my dojo. IT DOESN'T MATTER. That's where the reciprocity comes in. I would never ask you to take your blackbelt off at my dojo and neither would my instructor.

JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IT IS RIGHT IN YOUR HOUSE DOES NOT ALWAYS MAKE IT RIGHT IN SOMEONE ELSES HOUSE. IF YOU CAME AS A VISITOR OR GUEST INSTRUCTOR I WOULD ALLOW YOU TO WEAR YOUR BELT WITHOUT A PROBLEM OR HESITATION. IF YOU BECOME A STUDENT YOU START WHERE EVERYBODY ELSE STARTS, FROM THE BEGINNING. I TRAIN VARIOUS YUDANSHA FROM OTHER STYLES AND THEY WEAR THEIR WHITE OR OTHER COLORED BELTS ACCORDING TO THEIR RANK.

Just a note and Garcia Sensei can verify this, when we lined up in class at his dojo, I always sat with the white belts. I never assummed that I had rank in his class. I was always respectful of him and any other blackbelt that was teaching the class. I still am.

YOUR DESIRE,ASSUMPTIONS, WILLINGNESS WAS NOT CALLED INTO QUESTION...YOUR DIVERGENCE FROM ESTABLISED PROTOCOL WAS.

As I wrote before; nothing I write will probably change your mind and you won't change mine. That's okay. I don't mind.

PRAISE GOD THAT WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT ALLOWS US THE RIGHT TO AGREE TO DISSAGREE. YOU HAVE HEARD FROM VERY REPUTABLE INSTRUCTORS, OF VARIOUS STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS AND WITHOUT EXCEPTION THEY ALL SEEM TO VOICE THE SAME OPINION. YOU THINK THEY MAY BE ON TO SOMETHING?

Let me also address the ego issue. I DO HAVE an EGO; I AM A PROUD PERSON. I try my best not to be. Because I have to try some might say I have no grasp of humility. Maybe not. I'm not arrogant because I suck; I'm arrogant b/c I know a lot of people who do BUT, BUT, BUT I also know A LOT of people that are better than me and that's what keeps me training.

I HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE FIRE OF PERSEVERENCE TO TRAIN CONTINUES TO BURN DEEP IN YOUR HEART FOR MANY YEARS TO COME. THERE IS A VERY OLD BOOK THAT STATES THAT PRIDE COMETH BEFORE THE FALL.
HUMILITY THROUGH HUMILIATION IS A VERY PAINFUL LESSON, HUMBLENESS OF CHARACTER PREVENTS THIS. OUR LESSONS COME OFF THE MAT AS WELL.
ALWAYS REMEMBER-OUR STUDENTS ARE WATCHING AND WILL DUPLICATE WHAT WE MODEL!

Regards,

A. De Luna

Again I state Andrew, I am not trying to come across as an a**. I am just an old school type of fella with a passion for the arts that burns deep in my heart, and a lover of tradition. I am sure that you are a very personable individual and am glad that you have not challenged me to a death match yet cause we dissagree :laugh:. Besides I'd have to pass you up because of my wife,six children, granddaughter and students who would never forgive me for dying.
God bless you
Rick

Mark Murray
16th January 2008, 14:17
MY RESPONSES ARE IN BOLD ANDREW


Hello Mr. Torres,
Just wondered if you could, maybe, not use all capital letters in your response? It makes it very hard to read, and most people on the Internet take all CAPS as meaning shouting. :)




THEN WHY IS IT SO HARD TO WEAR A WHITE BELT. THE ABOVE STATEMENT APPEARS TO BE CONTRADICTORY IN NATURE.


He stated that it was because of the value he placed upon his Instructor. I thought that part was clearly explained. But, reading your response, I guess it wasn't. Hmmm ... Let's see if I can maybe get the gist of what Mr. DeLuna was saying. Mr. DeLuna holds a very high regard for his instructor. So much so, that he perceives the instructor's ranking comparable to bestowing a personal honor. In other words, removing that ranking and replacing it with a very lesser ranking would degrade the honor given him and show disrespect to his instructor.



When I train in Brazilian Jiujitsu I go to "no gi" night because they require you wear a white belt.




THEY REQUIRE YOU TO WEAR A WHITE BELT. WHY DO YOU WEAR IT THERE AND NOT IN OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES THAT ARE DEFINATELY MORE FORMAL AND STEEPED IN JAPANESE TRADITION. BTW-LOVE TO DO BJJ AS WELL!


I think you might have misread his response here. My take is that Mr. DeLuna goes to the "no-gi" class because of the very fact that he will not wear a white belt. If he goes to regular class, he must wear the white belt. So, he chooses to only go to the non-gi wearing class.



JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IT IS RIGHT IN YOUR HOUSE DOES NOT ALWAYS MAKE IT RIGHT IN SOMEONE ELSES HOUSE. IF YOU CAME AS A VISITOR OR GUEST INSTRUCTOR I WOULD ALLOW YOU TO WEAR YOUR BELT WITHOUT A PROBLEM OR HESITATION. IF YOU BECOME A STUDENT YOU START WHERE EVERYBODY ELSE STARTS, FROM THE BEGINNING. I TRAIN VARIOUS YUDANSHA FROM OTHER STYLES AND THEY WEAR THEIR WHITE OR OTHER COLORED BELTS ACCORDING TO THEIR RANK.


I think Mr. DeLuna has already covered this topic to a point. I believe he stated that he does not train with a group that will not allow him to wear his belt.

And that, IMO, is perfectly fine. Mr. DeLuna has certain convictions that he lives by. And, it appears, (at least so far) to me that he's being as respectful as he can about it. Certainly, a good number of us don't see things the same way (I wear a white belt when in another school) and I would think that it would be very hard to locate schools to train with those convictions (not many schools will allow it). But I didn't see Mr. DeLuna imposing his convictions upon those schools -- rather he walks away and looks for other opportunities.

As I said, personally, I think that'd be a very hard way to train. A lot of doors will be closed in the traditional JMAs. The best we can do is to give our opinions and advice, as many of us here have done.

Certainly, there are a few puzzling aspects in regards to living by this conviction. One being --why there is a fine line between uniform distinctions? It seems acceptable to not wear the belt during "no-gi" practice. However, it is still training and the honor/distinction of the belt received is still there (I hope). So, by not wearing the that uniform, it becomes acceptable to not wear the belt? It seems a very fine line to me. What of other martial arts? In a Chinese system, is it fine to wear a lower colored sash with their uniform? How is the distinction made?

Anyway, just some puzzling aspects that really aren't all that important -- to me. I wear a white belt. And lately, meeting some of the people I have met -- I don't think I'm even up to wearing that. :)

Mark

Jitsumania
16th January 2008, 15:35
Mark, my apologies for the caps. you are right and I mean no disrespect, especially the shouting part:). All I wanted to do was understand a divergent point from a very common mainstream school of thought in the JMA.
I felt that the responses appeared to be somewhat contridictory, but oh well.
I would never be one to to impose my values or beliefs on any individual. If Mr. Deluna believes he would dishonor his Instructor then he must follow his heart no matter who it identifies him with or seperates him from.
I don't believe I misread his post when he wrote about attending no gi night :
"When I train in Brazilian Jiujitsu I go to "no gi" night because they require you wear a white belt."
Contidictory but oh well, no matter.
I agree with the points you made on the latter part of your post once you got past my shouting ;). Again my apologies to those I may have offended.
I guess because of the field I work in I am trained to address contridiction as a road to healing. Hard to turn that paradigm off sometimes.
Mr. Deluna has been nothing but appropriate in how he handled his responses on the forum with me and I appeciate that because sometimes it turns into this:
1. Opinion voiced
2. Divergent opinion voiced
3. feelings are hurt
4. then the challenge to "come on over and I'll show you just how effective it (whatever it is) is when I kick your ***.
I love this forum because of the decorum that is maintained by most who contribute.
May God bless you in your future endeavors and the same wish is also extended to Andrew.

K. Cantwell
16th January 2008, 16:37
I don't believe I misread his post when he wrote about attending no gi night :
"When I train in Brazilian Jiujitsu I go to "no gi" night because they require you wear a white belt."


Just a quick point: I think the idea is that Mr. DeLuna goes to the "no-gi" night to avoid wearing a belt at all. No keikogi means no need for a belt, so the issue is moot. He doesn't wear a white belt; indeed, he wears no belt at all because there is no need to without keikogi.
(The require part, I think, had to do with the other classes on other nights, which would require the wearing of a white belt to participate.)

The interesting thing about that is that assuming that the training is solid on "no-gi" nights and some of the same people show up the other nights, then some good training is being missed out on.

Kevin Cantwell

lucky1899
16th January 2008, 18:02
All,

So many points to touch on and I only have 24 minutes left in my lunch hour. :)

First, Rick, my English is as bad as you think. I go to "no-gi" night to avoid wearing a belt at all. Depending on how one reads the sentence the meaning could go either way. Hope it's clear now.

Kevin,

I agree that I would be missing great opportunities for training if I never trained with a gi. First, let me write that I have more classes (training hours) than I have time. I train in Muso Shinden Ryu (two nights), teach Daito Ryu (three nights), run and weightlift (two nights), read MA book (one night), watch MA video (two nights), self-training (one night), meditation (one night), grappling (one night), kicking (one night)...notice I'm over seven nights already!!! Did I mention I have three kids (ALL BOYS). If there was a lack of good dojos to train in and the NEED to take off my white belt interfered with my training, I would probably re-think it. Right now, that's not an issue but I agree with your perspective 100%.

Different subject:
Let me go on some quick tangents that hopefully will be thought inspiring:

1.) Is Aikido as Ueshiba Morihei practiced it taught today?
2.) Has the current head master of Aikido changed the Hombu in anyway?
3.) If I have a blackbelt in Aikikai, do I take it off when I go to Yoshinkan?
4.) When did belts in Daito Ryu show up?
5.) When did belts in Aikido show up?

Like I've written before, it will take a long time to communicate all my points on why I act the way I do. Let me add, I don't want rank in any other empty-hand arts. I cross-train, visit other dojos, etc. simply to keep learning things that will make my Daito Ryu better. Up until last year, my "new" Daito Ryu training was limited to seminars, as my only teacher was in Japan.

I've not visited any traditional CMA dojos so I don't know what I would do in that case with regards to a belt. One of my students, practiced Tai Chi for several years (he wears a white belt at my dojo) and I'll ask him and see if anything of interest comes up.

Rick wrote:
THE FOUNDER OF THIS ART, MASTER UESHIBA IS CONSIDERED ONE OF JAPAN'S NATIONAL TREASURES. THE ART IS STEEPED IN TRADITION AND PROTOCOL (TRADITIONAL JAPANESE BY THE WAY) IN ORDER TO PRESERVE WHAT THE FOUNDER ENVISIONED FOR AIKIDO. READ THE SPIRIT OF AIKIDO BY THE FOUNDERS SON TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE TRADITION AND PHILOSOPHY OD AN ART WHICH EXPOUSES THE DEATH OF SELF (FIGURATIVELY) AS A MEANS TO ENLIGHTENMENT.

Response:
The word "tradition" is a little strong considering Aikido was created in the 1900's. In addition, I don't believe Ueshiba Morihei's vision for Aikido is a reality today. The "Spirit of Aikido" was written by Morihei's son, not Morihei and therefore, no one knows 100% that what is written in that book was what Morihei would've written. I've read it by the way.

If you truly look into Buddhist scripture on "death of the self", you would know that we wouldn't be having this dialogue if either of us had reached that point. I believe there are several ways to enlightenment (the top of the mountain) and martial arts is one of them. I strongly believe that on my way to enlightenment, the color of my belt couldn't be less important.

Regards,

A. DeLuna

Scott Harrington
16th January 2008, 18:07
It seems that the debate in this thread turns on two things – when to wear a “black belt” and Japanese customs. So here goes.

1. The “blackbelt” is a fairly recent invention by Mr. Kano of the Kodokan Judo who needed it to differentiate the advance students from beginners. It identified someone as a) talented to teach others and b) take potentially dangerous falling techniques (called ukemi). As a ranking system it is less than 50 years old in the Daito-ryu system when Mr. Tokimune Takeda introduced it in his style, replacing a previous licensing system.

2. There are recent constructs regarding rank as determined by whom and who does not wear a hakama (flowing pants-like clothes). Some schools wear it by ability, by gender, by seniority (e.g. in the Yoshinkan school only the headmaster wore a hakama.) This therefore means in some cases it is purely a symbolic item.

3. Since martial arts can be translated as military arts, a close look at our present armed forces shows that members of a particular branch do not remove their affiliation or rank identifiers when going to various schools outside their common area (e.g. an Air Force Captain taking an Army class on communications protocols. There are a few exceptions, mostly custom – there is only one captain on a ship, but still the same uniform and rank.)

4. Addressing customs now, certain organizations who teach martial arts require their students to wear various ‘emblems’ to identify the skill level of the practitioner. This can run the gamut from a “belt” to a “hakama” to a “patch” (which seems to get a lot of bad press from the more “martial” but is ubiquitous in all modern military systems in the world – go figure.)

5. A similar ranking system is awarding titles to students of western schools as an indication of level of skill and respect. This is the well-known titles Bachelor, Master, Doctor, and Professor. While the uniforms for said ranks in an academic setting is rarely used (e.g. graduation ceremonies), it is disrespectful in the western culture to not use the titles for high ranked individuals. (E.g. it is a stupid patient who calls his Doctor dude!) If a Professor may stray outside his/ her field of study, he / she is still called by the proper title.

6. Regarding Japanese customs, I leave that to those that have spent a great amount of time ‘in country.’ Transliteration is a difficult task; transcustomization (I made that word up!) is even more. To explain this I use the analogy of a big town mayor who plays proper respect to a higher ranked Masonic member of his lodge who runs a gas station. Interestingly, I think the Japanese mindset would understand this more than some westerners with our egalitarianism.

7. By adopting a particular ranking system in Japan you show ‘admission and allegiance’ to said group. I know several stories where high rank has been bantered about to join a Japanese organization. One involved a teacher of a commentator in this debate, told this to me from someone actually present, yes it was. (Yoda imitation )

8. Dropping your ‘rank’ is a difficult task as it may mean showing affiliation (which you may not want to show), depriving yourself from learning dangerous techniques as the “white belt” means beginner, and other personal reasons (e.g. keeping your affiliation to your own teacher or organization.)

9. There has been some debate about rudeness. I have personally been racially insulted by a very high ranking Japanese instructor, even before being introduced. Other Japanese and Japanese-Americans saw this and lowered their heads in shame but said nothing. Their culture and their rules. I attended the seminar, showed proper respect but never attended that school again. An older, wiser man, if it happened today I would demand my money back, mock the teacher and ask the students why they followed such a rude person. It is a martial art and sometimes we do need to also stress “art.”

10. This is a hobby. Yes, rules are important so things do not get broken. But petty rank issues are only that. It is your own choice to wear or not wear the “blackbelt.” But it is NOT disrespectful, either way.

On a side note, a long long time ago I had the good fortune to go back to the hotel room after a seminar by Mr. Okamoto, where he and his students relaxed with some hard ‘liquid refreshments.’ He and they were most cordial, with some polite ribbing for abstaining and only drinking orange juice (they called it a kid’s drink). He is truly a fine gentleman and it was a pleasure.

Scott Harrington
co-author of “Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”

Ron Tisdale
16th January 2008, 18:59
3.) If I have a blackbelt in Aikikai, do I take it off when I go to Yoshinkan?

I am in the Yoshinkan, and I take mine off in some Aikikai settings, but not others. It depends on the instructor, the school, etc. But if the place I visit (Aikikai or otherwise) asks me to wear a white belt, that's what I do. It's no disrespect to my teacher, and as far as I know, he would expect me to do that.

I've seen Aikikai members wear their BBs at Yoshinkan seminars here in the States. I don't know what decision would be taken for regular classes.

But I would not wear my BB in a Daito ryu class, not in an open seminar, and certainly not in their dojo...at least not now. I think I may have worn my brown belt in the class at the Aiki Expo...simply because it was a large seminar, far from home, and I don't think I HAD a white belt with me. But I really can't be sure, as I don't remember...but if someone had asked me to take it off, I certainly would have. And kept happily training.

Best,
Ron

Jitsumania
16th January 2008, 21:11
I have no desire to to continue addressing the rank issue thus not proverbialy "beating the dead horse with a stick to the ground". Many points have been made and each practitioner must choose to do what they feel their ethics lead them to do, as it is not my place to legislate morality. My days as a SAGOR (self appointed guardian of rightiousness) have since ended many years ago. Know the feeling of to much to do and so little time. Raised 6 kids (4 boys and 2 girls), full time 11 hr. day job and 4 days of MA teaching and training.
Andrew,Four points in response to some things you wrote:
1. "The word "tradition" is a little strong considering Aikido was created in the 1900's."
I did not know that there was an established time limit to determine tradition, especially in an art that is considerably well over more than half a century old.

2. "In addition, I don't believe Ueshiba Morihei's vision for Aikido is a reality today."
That reality does exist in the hearts and minds of MANY Aikido practitioners today (including this writer). This reality needs to be just as important now as it was in the time that Ueshiba expoused his beliefs about what Aikido is and is not. Aikido is not just about techniques that you practice, it is about a philosophy of life that promotes harmony and unity that unites accross borders of color, social status, gender,etc..

3. "The "Spirit of Aikido" was written by Morihei's son, not Morihei and therefore, no one knows 100% that what is written in that book was what Morihei would've written. I've read it by the way. "
Then you would know that Father and son spent many days and nights discussing the philosophy of what Aikido is and is not. I know that my children, especially my eldest and youngest sons know exactly what is and is not the the martial, teaching and many other philosophies of this writer and what my wishes would be for them to pass on the art I teach to others. I believe had this not been the case With O-Sensei and his son Kisshomaru the later would not have become the Doshu.

4. "If you truly look into Buddhist scripture on "death of the self", you would know that we wouldn't be having this dialogue if either of us had reached that point. I believe there are several ways to enlightenment (the top of the mountain) and martial arts is one of them."
Death of self is not a concept that is restricted to Buddist philosophy alone. If you examine Christian scripture as well you will see it referenced many times in the Bible with a difference in paradigm. This concept has many meanings to many people. Yes the road to enlightenment can have many paths(refer to sig of this writer for one example). How could one understand the concept of "death to self" if the philosophy had not been previously discussed and interpreted by others before us!

Nathan Scott
16th January 2008, 22:31
Folks,

Mr. DeLuna has stated his point of view, and has stated he may have to agree to disagree with some of the posters here. If some would like to continue to discuss this general subject, that's fine. But I just deleted 16 posts for being disrespectful and/or incitant. Agendas and personal attacks should be taken to other websites or off-line. We also have "good", "baffling", "bad", and "ugly" forums here as well if someone finds issues with someone else.

Personally, I have two points of view on the subject. On one hand, I don't believe those hosting open seminars are in a position to complain about the kinds of participants they get. Participants view open seminars as opportunities to learn techniques and other information in exchange for a fee, and to do what they like with such information afterwards. That's just the reality, and that's why I (for one) don't like open seminars or teaching openly.

On the other hand, I personally prefer to wear a white belt when a choice exists for most of the same reasons already posted here. I do appreciate the rank and authority my instructors have vested in me, but as far as that goes I am more concerned with common courtesy/respect extended towards me than I am on presenting the color of my belt color. Personally, I think ability is what others should be judging me by.

When I asked Obata Sensei for permission to cross train in other arts, he consented on the condition that I didn't allow myself to be treated like a rank beginner by others I train with. As far as he was concerned, I was a senior ranked and licensed instructor of his, and to allow myself to be treated as a newbie - especially by others with less experience - would be disrespectful to him, and indicate that I am not worthy of the level of authority and trust he has given me. I have in fact been able to cross train in other arts since that discussion, from the beginning as a white belt, without having any significant issues in this regard. One thing I opted not to do though (to save face publicly) was to decline demonstrating publicly until I had some reasonable skills in the other arts. But other than that, I was and still am treated with reasonable courtesy in the other arts I study, and belt color was never an issue for me.

So basically, I understand what Mr. DeLuna is trying to say, but have a slightly less restrictive perspective on it.

BTW, although my aikido ranks/licenses are from a Yoshinkan aikido derivative, I was instructed to wear my hakama and belt when attending a seminar conducted by an Aikikai Shihan from Japan. I would have had no problem wearing a white belt, but I was flattered that the instructor insisted I wear hakama and belt and sit in the lineup accordingly. In the cases of some other aikido seminars, I've just worn my welt belt. There is no standard among aikido groups outside of proper etiquette.

Regards,

don
16th January 2008, 23:05
....I personally prefer to wear a white belt when a choice exists for most of the same reasons already posted here. I do appreciate the rank and authority my instructors have vested in me, but as far as that goes I am more concerned with common courtesy/respect extended towards me than I am on presenting the color of my belt color. Personally, I think ability is what others should be judging me by.I prefer white, too. But I've taken to wearing black at open seminars in order to quiet down the newbies who want to give me instruction. I swear, I've had yellow belts tell me how to do HIJI NAGE (wrong of course, they wanted me to do what their teacher does and not what the seminar instructor was doing), and at one seminar, a karate BB wearing colors, who didn't even know turn-taking let alone UKEMI, wanted to teach me KOTE GAESHI, which, of course, he couldn't do. Sheesh! Shut up and train, already.

Woody
16th January 2008, 23:45
It's threads like this that make me glad I'm out of the belt/ranking game.
Me too Josh, me too.

Samurai Jack
17th January 2008, 03:52
This is the problem I have with rank. I am stating firmly this has nothing to do with Mr. Popkin or Mr. De Luna. As far as I am concerned it is an issue between the two, and it is water under the bridge. I wish to focus strictly on rank.

First let's start at the roots (known by many). It is my understanding rank was to reflect a grading system. Professor Kano was an educator and used a hierarchy in setting learning objectives for Judo students, just as students typically pass from one grade to another in the public school system. The Judo rank system represents a progression of learning with a syllabus and a corresponding grade indicating an individual's level of proficiency. Earning a black belt is like graduating from high school or college. It indicates you have achieved a basic level of proficiency, learned the fundamental skills and can perform them in a functional manner, and you are now ready to pursue Judo on a more serious and advanced level as a professional or a person seeking an advanced degree would.
http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm This ranking system was adopted by other Japanese arts, and dang near by most all other Asian martial arts.

The problem I see is rank is emphasized differently from one school or system to another. In addition, meaning of rank can be ambiguous or differing in protocol that is an unwritten protocol as illustrated in this post.

Next is the importance on rank differs greatly between styles and schools. I remember reading along time ago a Karate sensei (to use the argot), basically said that black belt beginner.

I have heard many stories of how first black belts were awarded. These stories from sources being Japanese and non-Japanese speak to the diversity the means of getting a black belt and what it means.

In some instances it is a strenuous physical or mental effort require. Such as a relentless arduous training over time, then demonstrating learned skills by winning an exhausting and brutal competition.

In other cases, it was just a matter of proving your desire to be accepted by the school by exerting patience and determination, as example, waiting day after day at the school’s door step until accepted in.

Other case, black belt was awarded as a result of moving through the class syllabus. Or the awarding of black belt was at the sensei’s discretion.

Finally, the deplorable way to get a black belt was through purchasing it.

It is my understanding (again to use the argot) shodan means first grade what ever the story is on how it was award.

The weight of a black belt has also change in my life-time.

In the 1970’s the urban myth that was predominate was that if you where awarded a black belt your hands and feet where registered with the police dept. as a deadly weapon.

First degree black belts from the 1950s-1970s where feared as @$$ kickers.
But, then in the 1980s-1990s became inflated rank and hallow ranks as a means to measure B.S. abilities.
But then came the Gracies in the 1990s who put fear back in black belt.

But it didn’t squelch the inflated and hollow rank.

Where we seen high rank and low skills. Where we started to see10 year olds getting black belts. And black belts given to acrobatic stunts, and not martial arts skill. Where you seen 10th degree black belts that barely fit around the waist. Where some lived off dug up that old the urban legend justifying their rank they couldn’t keep afloat.

That is the issues I have with rank. No universal standards, protocol, or definition. All of which makes it hard determine what is it really for and how to treat it.

I have been in a situation where a black belt from one school/style was allowed to keep the rank on. It was noted that the person with the rank had been awarded from another school/style.

Prior to Kano, from what I read the Japanese just fought it out, killed, or injured each other proving their skill and abilities. No rank needed or involved. But Kano, a modern progressive went against that tradition and used rank as a substitute which many followed, from what I understand. Because of the lack of a single action of actual combative measurement of ability and the stress on a system lacking universal meaning and a myriad of actions to achieve rank, rank and related customary protocol now is what ever people want to make of it.

Customary protocol is ever changing. Today, it may be rude not to surrender your belt at a new school, a symbol of humility, sacrifice, willingness to learn, yet in 10 years the opposite maybe acceptable. A black belt might be equivalent to a Visa Card, accepted world wide; never having to wear a white belt again.


I don’t have rank, the Chinese masters I had never used it. I have been around Japanese martial arts long enough to know I wouldn’t want it, it can be very political. Besides, the guy on the street who really wants to hurt you bad, isn’t intimidated by rank, rank doesn’t win you a fight. I feel in the Japanese arts it is a tool that often gets too much attention and emphasis in many cases. There are many good things as well concerning rank, like pulling rank in the school, intimidation avoiding a fight, respect from others, knowing your worked hard and long to get at that level, having school privileges, impressing others, symbolic achievement, etc. The major downside is not getting the rank you think you deserved, hence depression and other such emotions, putting your self-esteem into it, false sense of ones-self, and unhealthy ego, politics, etc. There is good and bad to everything. But, I can live without rank- that might because I never got it. :)

Samurai Jack
17th January 2008, 04:51
I am saying I simply don't understand rank and the importance it has to some, because I never experienced it. :(

kiai
17th January 2008, 13:42
In my opinion, the only significance the belt has is is to show who can instruct, who can't, who can fall at what level, and who can't. Any more than that and it's baggage.

In general, I think it's best to keep your white belt.

Nathan Scott
21st January 2008, 21:00
It seems like a lot of people just view ranking and licensing as bragging rights. I've always viewed them as indicators of level of initiation and authority within the system. However, from my point of view, ranks and licenses are something somewhat personal between you and your teacher, and as such, are not usually necessary to display or discuss with others. Maybe that is another reason I like wearing a white belt. That being said, I also feel that we are obligated to advise students and prospective students what level of initiation and authority we are at if they inquire.

Many in modern arts teach to non-members, at joint seminars, and at open seminars. In such situations, I can understand the need for your level to be identified. In naginata, there are dan ranks and shogo, but no outward indicators of such ranks and licensing (no colored belts). During joint seminars, the teachers often break people up into smaller groups according to rank by just calling them out. Then the teachers teach, and the rest learn. Not too hard of confusing.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I could wear a white belt into any of the dojo I train at and the members there would remember what level I am at without needing to wear a black belt. Besides, having juniors figure out they have been correcting a senior is a good "shut up and train" lesson for juniors! :)

JS3
22nd January 2008, 00:42
Just food for thought...
I was having a conversation with an instructor and the topic of rank came up.
He was relaying a story about how some people had shown up to take lessons
and had stated that they never studied karate before.
As soon as they started doing the movements of the form he knew they were lying.
He said sometimes just seeing the way someone walks tells you if they've studied
or not.

The point is no matter what you wear around your waist, even if you want to hide
your training, any good instructor will always be able to determine your ability just
in the first few minutes of watching you.

Samurai Jack
22nd January 2008, 01:34
Let me put forth this, after talking to those whom I know in belt/ranking systems the following was brought up, it might be of interest.

If a person is a Major in the Army does he surrender his rank if he on a Naval ship? Does a professor at another University surrender his title when he visits another campus? If you earn a MBA do you surrender that if you decide to take engineering courses? Does a Doctor surrender his credentials etc. if he wants to learn a specialty? The answer is no. You earned your experience and skill and it should be recognized.

If you walk into a Japanese martial arts school and wear a white and having a black belt from somewhere else and not too many people know it, you will have the lower ranks really annoying the snot out of you. Their egos will have a field day at your expense. Much less respect you. Is what one of my friends said. He said, the thing about the old "empty your cup" is that it doesn't apply to the kyu ranks already at the dojo, or the teacher, who decides it is their right along with the students to haze you etc, because they got that silly empty your cup non-sense tied in with their egos. The school should always have an empty cup, if they expect someone else to empty their cup.


Rank is only as good as you make it. There are guys with all this rank and it is nothing more then decoration, as they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bad, much less ever been in a real fight. Or they have all this rank and titles and it is used as marketing tool, bragging rights and everything else under the sun.

Rank is a symbol of reaching a goal. Everyone has different standards for attaining the goal, and the goals. Some goals are monetary, mental, physical, favoritism, etc. and not all awarded to the same degree. Therefore, not all rank of the same level is equivalent, or has the same meaning.

Much more was discussed among us, and was all ready touch on here. But the most critical consensus of the night was that each school has the right to make its own rules, accept who they want and who they don’t want. If a school isn’t flexible, cordial, diplomatic, in such a situation then they really are not worth their crust. We live in a modern global world. We don’t live in feudal Japan, and feudal Japan doesn’t exist anymore, and long gone are the Samurai.

The bottom line I got from our sushi bar discussion is that rank is what you make it, and is only respected within the school that gave it to you. Traditionally it is non-transferable, but it should be. A risk with rank is that if you’re not as good as your rank indicates (or a phoney), you’re in for a world of embarrassment when you have to prove it, and you can't. Therefore, wearing a black belt at another school my indicate you know their system, But also by wearing one, it indicates you know (or should know) a thing or two, and it has been proven, that should be respected.

Samurai Jack
22nd January 2008, 01:46
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=457940&postcount=7

I think Joe has some interesting things to say on another relative topic.

bu-kusa
22nd January 2008, 13:13
When I train in Brazilian Jiujitsu I go to "no gi" night because they require you wear a white belt. I have received private instruction from BJJ instructors with a gi and they had no problem with me wearing my black belt. Did the belt get in the way of my learning or their teaching? Absolutely not.

So you will pay for extra private tution with a gi instead of going to the Gi class because you would have to wear a white belt?

lucky1899
22nd January 2008, 14:49
Paul,


You asked: So you will pay for extra private tution with a gi instead of going to the Gi class because you would have to wear a white belt?

Response: No, I have done private lessons without a gi too. :) I would do private lessons no matter what b/c I have scheduling issues either with my non-BJJ training, work, or life in general. I sometimes practice judo without a gi and I've received private lessons in iai as well; my driver for doing private lessons has nothing to do with wearing a belt.

In addition, I have had some "free" private lessons by inviting BJJ practitioners to my dojo. In the end, everybody wins.

Regards,

Andrew De Luna

Dan Harden
22nd January 2008, 20:38
The whole idea of ego when standing there with newbies seems inapropriate. Your skills or lack thereof of the materials being presented speaks for itself. Why is it even a topic for discussion? If you don't know the material...you *are* a newbie.

If you were attending your first BJJ class, of say fifteen people, would you deem it appropriate to wear a symbol of rank (black belt) when the only *other* black belt, for purposes of discussion lets say he is a twelve year veteran of the sport with many wins behind him- is the teacher covering material neither you or anyone else in the room knows?
If yes, Why?
No gi classes are a different idea but none-the-less the idea of who is instructing and who knows the material still holds. Neither of which applies to you.

As much as folks try to cloud the issue, there are no complications here. I know an electrical engineer. He has no business stamping structural drawings with a P.E. stamp just because he is an engineer- of a type.
When you step out on to the mat-you either know the material being presented- or you don't.
If you don't-then what are you accomplishing other than making a spectacle of yourself and making yet another (oh so American) mess that someone else has to clean up.
Thank goodness this behaviour is unique to all of us and everyone else finds it equally distasteful.
Cheers
Dan

kiai
22nd January 2008, 21:07
Maybe beginner's mind is something one finds after long practice, rather than the other way around.

lucky1899
22nd January 2008, 21:17
Dan,

I don't think persons with convictions about keeping their blackbelt have a problem being newbies. The fact is that if I go to a BJJ class and wear my blackbelt and get tapped out by a blue belt, everyone will know I'm a newbie. Just as was written earlier, you can wear a white belt and people will know by the way you move whether you've trained.

you wrote:If you were attending your first BJJ class, of say fifteen people, would you deem it appropriate to wear a symbol of rank (black belt) when the only *other* black belt, for purposes of discussion lets say he is a twelve year veteran of the sport with many wins behind him- is the teacher covering material neither you or anyone else in the room knows?
If yes, Why?

Yes, I think it's appropriate because a person has years of knowledge in an art the instructor doesn't have knowledge in (at least as much knowledge as it took to get a black belt in "some" art). I'm sure many visceral noises come out of the last sentence b/c many black belts should NOT be wearing them and some blackbelts can't tie them around their waste anymore; nevertheless, they have one.

In addition, is there really material no one else in the room knows; it's just one more way of applying principles. After the technical training, so much of BJJ is "feel" on the ground. The technical manuals of principles are NOT long, the technical manuals of techniques are, so "knowing" is more about "how deep you know" the art.

The comparison of an electrical engineer to a structural one doesn't really hit home because I'm not "watching" the BJJ techniques and "giving my stamp" of approval. My perspective is like an electrical engineer learning about structural engineering from a structural engineer. Obviously, the EE's training in engineering will give him a "head start" against someone just coming out of high school.

You wrote:
When you step out on to the mat-you either know the material being presented- or you don't.
If you don't-then what are you accomplishing other than making a spectacle of yourself and making yet another (oh so American) mess that someone else has to clean up.

I assume that you mean "American" to be bombastic, egotistical and arrogant but again that is NOT determined by the belt you have on; it's determined by what you do on the mat.

Regards,

A. DeLuna

kdlarman
22nd January 2008, 21:36
Honetly I have never understood the big deal. My black belt holds sentimental value for me because it was presented to me by people I respect and care about. It has meaning and significance for me within the context of the group I train with. But once I step outside my dojo and step into someone else's, well, the rules there apply. So I always make sure I take my black belt and I take a white belt. If I'm in someplace new, I identify myself, where I've trained, and the rank I hold. Then I ask which belt they'd prefer I wear. No biggie. Their house, their rules. FWIW in my experience most simply say wear the black belt but thanks for asking...

On a related note, my normal training gi have a small patch on them from our group (Seidokan). I have another gi with no patches in the closet. That's the "visiting others gi" for me.

If I'm wearing a white belt it doesn't mean I've somehow sacrificed or "given up" my rank. It means nothing to me at all. I'm just training and following their protocols. Frankly most of the time I'd rather fade into the back so I can focus on learning as much as I can without distraction...

To me it is like walking into someone's home. If you notice everyone else takes their shoes off at the door, you take your shoes off. It is just common courtesy to me...

Samurai Jack
23rd January 2008, 01:14
I have talked to both Howard and Andrew. I got their side, each of them. I am neutral, I don't have a concern either way, and personally it is between them. Yet, because of their situation, there is something to say about Koryu arts as general understood by Westerners; to what degree is there adhesion, if any, as to what is interpreted as koryu mores (protocol) , and what degree is a tolerable breech, and the result.

I have been with Japanese associates who have or do study koryu arts (per the Japanese vernacular) and here stories about their experiences of breeching protocol and by our standards would be considered sadistic brutal torture. These individuals where pre-world war martial artists. They would also tell me of how strict school delineating the punishment for breeching protocol and or breaking a rule -for those of us who went to Catholic School in the day, the nuns where Saints in comparison to the Japanese teachers who where sadistic on good days. Yet by today’s standards and even in Japan with the Sumo instructor incident such breeching of protocol now is seen as unacceptable extreme harassment, hazing, and sadistic behavior.

What people forget (I think it is because they practice it and thus, close to it) is the word martial in martial arts, and stressing in practice heavily the word art. The koryu mores is military, was to make obedient soldiers, and training was boot camp. And your master was also your drill instructor. The culture was military, and not recreational. That latter is what it is now, today. Therefore, culture, and as a result protocol has changed. That change has been dictated by current global times and each generation over time conforming to society. Therefore to what degree does anyone conform whole heartily and completely to authentic koryu protocol or mores practicing a koryu anymore?

I personally, generically without judgment of anyone’s comportment, based on my discussions and experiences and understandings from my exposure that no one today conducts themselves truly and completely to the mores of koryu. I say this based on the experiences I had observing those Japanese individuals watching other school’s protocals, and rites etc. expressing discontent for what they deemed as ignoble displays of koryu mores. The way the students where instructed to handle their practice weapons in ceremony and non-combative situations. At other instances, the complaints where directed to this subject, proper dress, rites and rituals related to Japanese culture and koryu practice.

For those who chide an individual for not surrendering their rank as a highly dastardly act, may consider in the near future this will be acceptable action. Just as the many other things within the mores of a koryu that where not acceptable have become. Hmmm….teaching the art, accepting in the school other then those in your clan…say…gygene!

K. Cantwell
23rd January 2008, 03:20
For those who chide an individual for not surrendering their rank as a highly dastardly act, may consider in the near future this will be acceptable action. Just as the many other things within the mores of a koryu that where not acceptable have become. Hmmm….teaching the art, accepting in the school other then those in your clan…say…gygene!


I think you need to be a bit more careful with your terms. Most koryu that I know of don't use a belt system, so this issue simply wouldn't come up. There are no Shinto Muso-ryu or Katori Shinto-ryu "Black Belts." It's an iemoto system for the most part, with classical licensure that has to do with your relationship to your teacher and the ryu. As a matter of fact, the higher one goes, the more responsibility one has to the ryu and the less important the individual is. (Even if there is no one head to speak of, you still find classical licenses for the most part.)

Your joining of "surrending rank" and "koryu" just don't go together for me. It's simply a non-starter really.

As anyone involved in legitimate classical arts will tell you, you don't matter; it's what you can do for the ryu that counts. I would imagine this to be the case with those classical schools that do have belts, which is a relatively small number compared to those that use a more classical system. In other words, if you are somebody that needs that belt or a visual representation of your progress, most koryu aren't for you. It's simply about the training and preserving the ryu. As a matter of fact, if you need any sort of external validation, koryu may not work out. There is no guarantee that you will be awarded any license, no matter how long you train.

I'm not sure if you are just using the term "koryu" as a catchall or mean it to refer to a certain type of art (don't know what you mean by "vernacular"...koryu usually carries with a specific historical connotation), but to the vast majority of the arts classified as "koryu," the topic of this thread would be irrelevant. (And would probably get you laughed out of the dojo. If I weren’t afraid of getting a naginata on the noggin, I would ask my Buko-ryu teacher how long till my black belt just for giggles.)

Most of the anecdotes I've heard in my training about those specifically looking for the license/rank don't have happy endings.

Kevin Cantwell

Samurai Jack
23rd January 2008, 13:14
I think you need to be a bit more careful with your terms. Most koryu that I know of don't use a belt system, so this issue simply wouldn't come up.

Cantwell my friend is many Koryu have taken up a belt system, true it isn't all of them and I didn't impy that. I have been told there are Koryu that use both licenses and rank.

K. Cantwell
23rd January 2008, 15:03
Cantwell my friend is many Koryu have taken up a belt system, true it isn't all of them and I didn't impy that. I have been told there are Koryu that use both licenses and rank.

Internally perhaps, but the point is that this crossover issue simply wouldn't happen within traditional martial traditions. A Tatsumi-ryu guy that decides to take up Maniwa Nen-ryu wouldn't expect that his prior training would have any bearing on his standing within his "new" ryu. It wouldn't even enter his mind. Everything is case-by-case, of course, and the teacher could decide to make some modification for some reason, but the student would never expect this really. (There would also be issues of taking up two schools with the same primary weapon. You don't usually see that. If people study more than one koryu seriously, it is usually schools with different primary weapons.)

If someone with experience in the art is visiting a branch dojo or something, or at an internal seminar, he would probably line up at the end to avoid the "When did you start?" conversations with everyone, or more likely, the teacher would have already organized things so as to avoid confusion. It isn't really a big deal and certainly there is no custom or issue that would need to be worked out. I've lined up junior to people that I am senior to on occasion simply because it worked out that way at the end of practice…no big deal.

Within my SMR organization are some people that happen to have high-level licenses in other arts. This has no bearing whatsoever on where they line up or their authority within SMR. Their sempai may very well not have the same level license, but they are still their sempai.

The point I'm trying to make is that this isn't really a "koryu" issue and should never really come to be.

Kevin Cantwell