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Maverick
10th January 2001, 00:39
I'm learning some of it but I'd like to see more of what's inside Seisan, Empi, Wansu and Naihanchi. How accurate is the George Dillman material? Is there any other tapes or books that are any good?

kusanku
10th January 2001, 04:56
For free, you can go to the Baylor University, Texas, Karate Club website, search and ye shall find, and go to a section called genjumin's world.

Also go to a site at http://www.shoto-ryu.com and read starting with issue One the SRSI Journal.

Also go to http://www.amaks.com where you wil be shown how to link to the AMAKS Kata Analysis Website where you will find artcles of varying ways of interpreting both kata and basics. Be sure to go to the Resources section or you'll miss some fine stuff.

Some of these will be repetitions of the same stuff. Good. Repetition is good for memorization and conducive to thought along sound lines in this case.

Also if you go to the Cyber-Kwoon, there is a series of nine articles there called the Vengel Chronicles.

These too, you may find of some small use.

Hope this is of help to you in your quest to better understand karate through its kata, or formal excercises.

Regards and best wishes to you, Kusanku, a.k.a.

[Edited by kusanku on 01-09-2001 at 10:59 PM]

Ken Allgeier
10th January 2001, 06:11
To quote,

" How accurate is George Dillman material"

in my opinion,none,abrogate,a fallacy,inaccuracy,misapprehension,ect


Go to the Karate section on - 9-18-2000 and read the post- " Any Ryukyu Kempo/Ryu Te practioners?"
for more information on this subject.

If you are interested in good Karate video tapes ,take a look at: Tsunami productions at http://www.dragon-tsunami.org

and at
http://www.kamikazeweb.com









ken allgeier

Maverick
11th January 2001, 17:00
Thanks guys. Some good stuff there.

Sochin
11th January 2001, 17:36
Good morning kusanku,

RE: Also if you go to the Cyber-Kwoon, there is a series of nine articles there called the Vengel Chronicles.
__________________
John Genjumin Vengel

I prowl the cyberkwoon but I couldn't find this reference nor did a search on 'Vengal' help - will you post the url here?

Thanks,

kusanku
12th January 2001, 07:01
Hi Sochin, yes , I saw you onthe cyberkwoon, use the 'texts' link on the navbar there,under wisdom, I believe, you will find the articles written by my older and somewhat shadowy :-) Dutch Uncle, partly tongue in cheek, but actually giving true facts and views.

Fabien asked me to write them back when ALMA was just starting, and he tells me they have been quite popular.

That Dirk Vengel's quite some guy.:-)

Regards and good to hear from you again Ted,

John aka Kusanku aka

Maverick
14th January 2001, 04:05
Ok but why is this stuff in a sort of code?

kusanku
14th January 2001, 05:39
Because its dangerous?:-)

Maverick
14th January 2001, 15:34
C'mon John, you can do better than that! :D
Liked your articles and have found them helpful.

Know of any applications for what the TKD people call a mountain block?

kusanku
15th January 2001, 23:12
'C'mon, John, you can do better than that.':D

Well, that is why one would encode
a kata..

'know of any applications for what the TaeKwon Do people call a Mountain Block?'

Tae Kwon Do comes from Shotokan. Shotokan yama gata gamae( mountain shaped posture) is a turning shoulderlock and throw, one hand on the wrist, one at the armpit, turn, step in front with the stomp or crescent kick, and dump 'em. Also used in close quarters against a staff held by attacker apparently totally ignorant of Bojutsu waza.:-)

I like the shoulderlock takedown.Anyone knows what they are doing with a stick, you'll eat part at least of it.:D

Regards, Kusanku


[Edited by kusanku on 01-15-2001 at 05:15 PM]

Maverick
16th January 2001, 03:31
Thanks, that damn mountain block has been driving me nuts as to it's usage. I haven't started the kata that has it but it looked like the silliest thing I've ever seen.

What do you mean TKD comes from Shotokan, it's a 2,000 year old art! :D

You wouldn't know if any of the forms come from Shotokan besides Empi, Bassai and the Tekki series would you?

Also when you guys say that crossing the ankles denotes a turn what do you mean? A 90 or 180 degree? I have noticed the jump/throw connection which really made clear what was going on.

Once again thanks.

kusanku
17th January 2001, 03:42
Crossing the ankles can but does ot always denote a one eighty turn.It can also be a leg trap or a sweep or a trip or even a kick into the opponen'ts ankle points.It can also mean a step behind with or without a trun, even though you step across forward in the kata.

Cross stance can also project power by dropping your weight onto your opponent through your hand and arm onto their arm or head or body.

There are many possible meanings to this and other moves.

To think one movement only delineaes one possible meaning is a mistake in most, not all, cases.

What Shotokan kata came to Taekwondo? Well. in Ji Do Kwan, all of them.

In Tang Soo Do, about two thirds of them, and in some other styles, only about half.

Different Shotokan schools teach different numbers of kata, but all teach the following fifteen:

Heian 1-5
Tekki One-Three
Hangetsu
Jutte
Bassai Dai
Kanku Dai
Empi
Gankaku
Jion

Other styles like Shotokai include the Taikyoku series, One- three, and ten- no kata omote and ura.

JKA official syllabus includes in addition to the Basic Fifteen,
Bassai Sho
Kanku Sho
Chinte
Sochin
Nijushiho
Gojushiho Sho
Gojushiho Dai
Wankan
Meikyo
Unsu
Jiin
and also now includes Taikyoku shodan at Shodan.

Kanazawa in SKIF includes I beleieve nagmines' Chinto as Gankaku Sho, and I think some Goju ryu kata now,not sure which ones off hand,and also recommends TaiChi practice, which they learned from You Sensei in Japan( Yang, Ming Shih).

Many Shotokan groups also are incorporating Goju ryu kata into their practice, as optional kata(Shitei gata).

In some Shotokan groups the kata Hyakuhachiho is also practiced and many are resurrecting this as well. Hyakuhachiho is the Shotokanized version of Suparinpei, ultimate kata of Naha Ti, analogous to Kanku Dai but twice as long(108 moves.)

Hope this helps.

John

Maverick
19th January 2001, 02:58
Thanks John.
Are you familiar with these? Are they TKD specific or do they come from Shotokan?

Dan Gun
Do San
Won Hyo
Yul-Gok
Jung gun
Toi Gye
Hwa Rang
Choong Mu

kusanku
24th January 2001, 05:25
Those are the Chang Hon style of Tae Kwon Do developed by General, Choi, Hong-Hi in the late nineteeen forties.

He is still alive.

Those forms are white belt to Cho dan, I learnt them in 1979-80.

They are not Shotokan, but use Shotokan like movements albeit in very different order.

John

Maverick
25th January 2001, 03:32
Thanks John,and now for the $64,000 question. Did Choi know the Bunkai of the movements or did he just splice together a bunch of moves to create his own kata?
If these kata were just to teach movement, basics or excercise I'm fine with that. After all we do Empi, Bassai and the Tekki series and I know that they have bunkai, but I'd swear I do see applications in the color belt forms.

kusanku
25th January 2001, 06:03
"Did Choi know the Bunkai of the movements or did he just splice together moves to create his own kata?'

I honestly do not know, you would have to ask General Choi this question.

I do know that his Encyclopedia of Tae Kwon Do contains self defense movements for all types of situations including groundfighting, locks, holds and throws and that he is versed in vital point theory, nowadays.

Was he in 1946"? I don't know.

He is as I said, still alive.Might ask him?

John

Maverick
26th January 2001, 02:24
My master started studying TKD in Vietnam around the mid sixties and he teaches pressure points, locks, throws and groundfighting (not BJJ :) ) once you reach black belt. I was wondering if this was a part of early TKD or something that he added himself. I'll have to see if I can find Choi's encyclopedia.

Thanks John

Doug Daulton
28th January 2001, 19:43
... it first came from Okinawan karate ... and possibly even Chinese wushu.

So, it might be interesting to hook up with a local Shotokan or Okinawan karate teacher and compare forms.

In my experience, this is often as informative, if not moreso, than discussing the "whos, wheres and whens".

Just a thought. Good luck.

Maverick
28th January 2001, 22:48
That's exactly what I've started doing Doug, I've been minoring in Isshinryu for the last two months.
Thanks